The Other Woman... a 'success' story. Well, so far...

[RabbitHole]

Long time reader, first time poster here - basically just sharing a story and not really looking for advice as such though I'm open to whatever you would like to share, good or bad Also, please forgive any lack of abbreviations etc... I'm still learning

 

I'm the last person I thought would EVER end up as the OW. Brief history of me: I am nearly 40, I have a 3 year old son. I was married once when I was 25 - it lasted 7 years but my husband was physically, verbally & emotionally abusive. A year after my divorce (yes, fast, I know) I met my second husband. We were together for 4 years and he is the Father of my son. We planned to have a child together, but I don't think the reality of becoming a Father was something he coped with very well and so while I was pregnant (only around 6 weeks) he entered into a long-distance emotional (at first) and physical (later) affair. He eventually left me for her when our son was 5 months old and since then has had only a passing interest in our child. He sees him one night every two weeks and pays only $50 a month in child support. I should add at this point that I live in Australia and this entire story plays out here, so keep that in mind as our rules about custody, divorce, child support etc differ from other countries.

 

My husband's affair was something I found out about - by chance - when I was 5 months pregnant. It floored me. In short, I trusted my intuition, put 2 & 2 together and then confronted him as if I knew. He admitted it. I asked him to call her - in front of me - and end it. He did. However from this point on I no longer trusted him and I kept tabs on him, mostly via his cell phone records. I found out that he never ended the affair & she was complicit in the cover-up knowing that I was pregnant with his child. I knew all this, but I never confronted him again. Why I didn't is a story for another day, and in all honesty I'm not entirely sure I know why. Maybe partially I thought that once our son was born he'd 'come back' to us as a family - and he did at first - but it didn't last. He is still with that woman today - 3 years after he moved out - and I do not miss him, nor do I still love him. I realise that we would never have worked out and it would have ended eventually - I'm only glad it happened before our son was old enough to know the difference. Some time ago I made peace with the idea that the woman who basically 'stole' my husband while I was pregnant now gets to spend time with my son on a regular basis, and I feel that they must be 'meant' to be together. They seem happy together and I feel no ill will toward them any more. I have built a happy life - independently so - and my son is smart, well adjusted and very happy.

 

So I've been single since about August 2008. I believe myself to be an attractive woman - I look much younger than my years, am fun, happy, independent - I own my home (I bought it alone before meeting either of my husbands) and have my own business. At first I had no interest in dating and really didn't feel ready to meet anyone. I had a very brief - but casual - relationship for 3 months in early 2010 but that's it.

 

Cue now the story about my current boyfriend:

 

I met him in person in December 2009. We'd originally met online some months earlier as part of an online group (Twitter based) that has regular monthly meet-ups in public. This group can garner a monthly crowd of anything between 50 to 100 people, and is partly social & partly business networking. We didn't really chat much in person or online at that point, we connected occasionally only via Twitter but I knew enough about him to know that he was married to a Japanese woman and they'd had their first child only a few weeks after we first met in person.

 

Fast forward about 9 months and he approaches me about helping him to organise a Twitter meet-up for our city. The one we'd met at was held an hour from our city in the state capital, and we were going to try and build up a similar following locally. He had chosen to approach me as he had the idea, the networking & the business knowledge to build the group - but I was well-known and popular in those circles on a social basis and could bring in the people. As such, we arranged one meet-up that was a success and as a result we became friends rather than acquaintances.

 

Over the ensuing six months we became quite good friends - and it was ABSOLUTELY platonic, nothing more, nothing borderline, completely above board. However he indicated a few times that he was on rather a short leash with his wife and the impression I got was that she was rather controlling and he was accepting of that.

 

Then in April of this year, we organised another meet-up. It was close to Easter and not many people showed up - eventually only he & I were left, it was very early and we were discussing ideas for future networking events and how to make them more successful. The talk continued and turned to our personal lives - I finally shared a little of my past, and he started asking me questions about my separation involving a young child and how it affected us all. I clicked onto the fact that he was asking because he was weighing up the options of leaving his wife but this wasn't discussed directly. He's always been quite respectful of his wife, though I know that sounds strange considering he did cheat on her if only briefly.

 

Over the course of the following weeks he shared more with me: He and his wife had been together for 11 years since he was 21, she 31. He was very shy at that age, painfully so, and she was only his second lover - the first also being Japanese. He married her because he felt that she loved him & she was the first woman who'd shown interest in him - but he soon realised she had fallen in love with his potential (the Japanese are very focused on financial & material success, which he failed to provide to her expectations in the business he built) and had become quite resentful of him over time. Add to this the fact that they tried for 7 years to have a child, and in the end only had success via IVF and this was a marriage built upon strain and failed expectations. He eventually told me that they'd not had sex in 3 years, and that the 4 years prior to that they'd only had very mechanical sex in order to try and conceive. Yes, I believe he was truthful with me though I am sure her side of the story would vary as most stories do.

 

As we became closer he told me that she had told him at one point years earlier - and I understand this to be quite common in Japanese marriages - that she was happy for him to have a lover, or to see a prostitute, to fulfill his sexual needs because she had no interest at all in that aspect of their relationship. Her only conditions were that she didn't want to know about it and he shouldn't get the woman pregnant. He never acted on this. It actually hurt his feelings to think that she didn't care.

 

So there we are in late May this year - 18 months into a friendship that's become very close though completely platonic - and one night when I am child-free some mutual friends of ours were having a party. It's worth knowing here that she never went to any social events with him, even those held by family, and tried to stop him from doing so whenever possible. But on this occasion she was spending time with a friend and he got 'permission' to go out. He doesn't drink, so when he learned I was going he offered to pick me up as the party is a half hour drive from my home. Great party - bottle of wine under my belt - his mention of his wife's 'permission' echoing in my head - and I grab hold of his hand on the drive home. Yes, it was all instigated by me and was a shock to him. Long story short - we made love. It was wonderful. And we parted as friends, with a lovely experience between us that we never intended to repeat - and yes, we spoke about that on the night.

 

But... yes, I know!... he became completely smitten with me and the feeling of being touched, appreciated, attractive to a woman. He was on a high that he'd never experienced - the usually very serious man was actually singing to himself and grinning for no reason. And his feelings opened up something in me. I am usually very good at keeping sex & emotions separate (I've had FWBs in the past with no problems) but when he started to share that he was falling for me, I found myself reciprocating. It was all messages at first but then we finally met in person again...

 

And so began 4 months of absolute turmoil. He 'separated' from her (told her marriage was over, signed an 'intention to separate' legal doc) two weeks into the affair but remained living in the home - though in a separate room as he already had been for the past 2 years. Here in Australia you have to be separated for a year before you can divorce, but that separation is often started while still living together (hence the legal doc) because the finances and home cannot be divided till the divorce becomes final. So this wasn't unusual. But she asked for - and he agreed to - counselling so that in a way there was still some hope on her part - and some conflict on his side - and I never had complete certainty about how it would all play out. I'd like to think I wasn't really the OW when legally he was considered separated, but our relationship wasn't out in the open, she didn't know, and he was still lying to her and only seeing me when he didn't have work or family obligations so it FELT like an affair and I'm willing to take that label and live with it.

 

No need to really explain how the rest of it worked - it was a typical affair - sneaking around, lies - only different in the fact that he was open about it to many of his friends and family who knew he had separated but was attending counselling, He was attending hoping that she would come to accept the break-up rather than fight - because she had threatened to move back to Japan with their son rather than be a single Mother here in Australia. She was attending hoping to keep him around because in Japanese culture a divorced woman is considered undesirable and a failure. But still, even with the separation there, it was harrowing - and incredibly hard for me as I'd been through it as the BS and felt completely conflicted. I ended it a few times because of this. But I loved him - and him me - and I was clearly too weak to stick to it when the weight of our misery due to being apart started to become too much to bear.

 

In September I finally told him that I was walking away so they could try to work things out. They'd been in counselling for a while but he couldn't possibly give it a genuine try with me in the picture. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. We went NC, and he apparently gave it a good try. But a month later - early October - he finally told her it was never going to work and walked out. He moved in with his business partner, made it public that his marriage was over and essentially at that point we became a real couple. I never took the relationship seriously till that point, and as such kept it a secret from everyone but my closest friends. Yes, I felt shame and I really wish things hadn't worked out this way.

 

But we can't choose who we fall in love with or when. I tried to handle myself in a dignified way but I still made poor choices, as did he. He and his ex-wife are still working things out - and keeping their son at the forefront. I absolutely support everything they choose to do as I know what that's like. His son (nearly 2) and my son (3 in March) adore each other. We hope in time to live together but there's no rush even though it would be better financially for us. We have decided to start afresh - dating, romance - then build up to that point as though the relationship only started last month instead of last May. But it's still difficult sometimes and not all smooth sailing.

 

It's his birthday this week and I will be meeting many of his family and friends for the first time - the first time I've felt like the girlfriend rather than the OW. It's a pretty big deal - his family is important to him - and he's taken the time to tell them all about me personally before we meet. The only person who still doesn't know about me is his ex-wife, and that revelation will wait till legal papers are in order to prevent her from leaving the country with their son. Things are going very well between us though, and we take the time to communicate with each other very openly - it's a very different relationship for both of us than those we've had in the past - much more loving, much more respectful, much more intimate on every level - but we both regret the way it started and wish things had worked out differently.

 

In all honesty I'm not sure why I'm sharing this. I guess I tend to feel that many posts here are of the "My life is falling apart" variety or the "My affair worked out and he's mine now - whoohoo!" variety. Mine is somewhere in the middle - I feel I've ended up in a wonderful relationship with a man who will be in my life a very long time, but I deeply regret the way it happened and given the chance I wouldn't do it again.

 

But when I look at my relationship, and my ex-husband's relationship, I see two connections that started with affairs but were - in my opinion - meant to be, and as such should we allow ourselves to get bogged down in the 'how' or should the end justify the means? I honestly don't know... and I'm by no means at the end of my story - but I do feel that even though there is that small chance you will end up with your MM or MW, the journey to get there can completely eat you up inside and cause all kinds of turmoil for everyone involved. Sure, it may settle down in time and leave a bunch of happy people in the wake of the turmoil, but I'd never advocate getting into an affair and I wish I didn't have that stigma attached to my conscience.

 

So yes, I'm an OW who ended up with her MM but I feel no sense of victory. I know I will always have that 'if he cheats WITH you he'll cheat ON you' mantra in the back of my mind even though I know my BF well enough that it's unlikely. Still, with my existing trust issues from one abusive and one adulterous marriage in my past it's something I wish I didn't have to think about.

 

Sorry for the very long post but considering that I've never been able to share the entirety of my story with anyone, this has been helpful to me - and, hopefully, to someone else out there. I guess for me the moral of the story is: Even the perceived 'best outcome' for an OW or OM in an affair - i.e. you win the prize - has a taint to it that a relationship started the normal way would not. And in all honesty I'm not sure that I would ever want to do it again.

[robf1971]

'if he cheats WITH you he'll cheat ON you' mantra in the back of my mind even though I know my BF well enough that it's unlikely. .

 

 

I'd not trust a cheater not to cheat again anymore than I'd trust a thief to look after my bank account or a fox to look after my henhouse.

[phillyfan]

Long time reader, first time poster here - basically just sharing a story and not really looking for advice as such though I'm open to whatever you would like to share, good or bad Also, please forgive any lack of abbreviations etc... I'm still learning

 

I'm the last person I thought would EVER end up as the OW. Brief history of me: I am nearly 40, I have a 3 year old son. I was married once when I was 25 - it lasted 7 years but my husband was physically, verbally & emotionally abusive. A year after my divorce (yes, fast, I know) I met my second husband. We were together for 4 years and he is the Father of my son. We planned to have a child together, but I don't think the reality of becoming a Father was something he coped with very well and so while I was pregnant (only around 6 weeks) he entered into a long-distance emotional (at first) and physical (later) affair. He eventually left me for her when our son was 5 months old and since then has had only a passing interest in our child. He sees him one night every two weeks and pays only $50 a month in child support. I should add at this point that I live in Australia and this entire story plays out here, so keep that in mind as our rules about custody, divorce, child support etc differ from other countries.

 

My husband's affair was something I found out about - by chance - when I was 5 months pregnant. It floored me. In short, I trusted my intuition, put 2 & 2 together and then confronted him as if I knew. He admitted it. I asked him to call her - in front of me - and end it. He did. However from this point on I no longer trusted him and I kept tabs on him, mostly via his cell phone records. I found out that he never ended the affair & she was complicit in the cover-up knowing that I was pregnant with his child. I knew all this, but I never confronted him again. Why I didn't is a story for another day, and in all honesty I'm not entirely sure I know why. Maybe partially I thought that once our son was born he'd 'come back' to us as a family - and he did at first - but it didn't last. He is still with that woman today - 3 years after he moved out - and I do not miss him, nor do I still love him. I realise that we would never have worked out and it would have ended eventually - I'm only glad it happened before our son was old enough to know the difference. Some time ago I made peace with the idea that the woman who basically 'stole' my husband while I was pregnant now gets to spend time with my son on a regular basis, and I feel that they must be 'meant' to be together. They seem happy together and I feel no ill will toward them any more. I have built a happy life - independently so - and my son is smart, well adjusted and very happy.

 

So I've been single since about August 2008. I believe myself to be an attractive woman - I look much younger than my years, am fun, happy, independent - I own my home (I bought it alone before meeting either of my husbands) and have my own business. At first I had no interest in dating and really didn't feel ready to meet anyone. I had a very brief - but casual - relationship for 3 months in early 2010 but that's it.

 

Cue now the story about my current boyfriend:

 

I met him in person in December 2009. We'd originally met online some months earlier as part of an online group (Twitter based) that has regular monthly meet-ups in public. This group can garner a monthly crowd of anything between 50 to 100 people, and is partly social & partly business networking. We didn't really chat much in person or online at that point, we connected occasionally only via Twitter but I knew enough about him to know that he was married to a Japanese woman and they'd had their first child only a few weeks after we first met in person.

 

Fast forward about 9 months and he approaches me about helping him to organise a Twitter meet-up for our city. The one we'd met at was held an hour from our city in the state capital, and we were going to try and build up a similar following locally. He had chosen to approach me as he had the idea, the networking & the business knowledge to build the group - but I was well-known and popular in those circles on a social basis and could bring in the people. As such, we arranged one meet-up that was a success and as a result we became friends rather than acquaintances.

 

Over the ensuing six months we became quite good friends - and it was ABSOLUTELY platonic, nothing more, nothing borderline, completely above board. However he indicated a few times that he was on rather a short leash with his wife and the impression I got was that she was rather controlling and he was accepting of that.

 

Then in April of this year, we organised another meet-up. It was close to Easter and not many people showed up - eventually only he & I were left, it was very early and we were discussing ideas for future networking events and how to make them more successful. The talk continued and turned to our personal lives - I finally shared a little of my past, and he started asking me questions about my separation involving a young child and how it affected us all. I clicked onto the fact that he was asking because he was weighing up the options of leaving his wife but this wasn't discussed directly. He's always been quite respectful of his wife, though I know that sounds strange considering he did cheat on her if only briefly.

 

Over the course of the following weeks he shared more with me: He and his wife had been together for 11 years since he was 21, she 31. He was very shy at that age, painfully so, and she was only his second lover - the first also being Japanese. He married her because he felt that she loved him & she was the first woman who'd shown interest in him - but he soon realised she had fallen in love with his potential (the Japanese are very focused on financial & material success, which he failed to provide to her expectations in the business he built) and had become quite resentful of him over time. Add to this the fact that they tried for 7 years to have a child, and in the end only had success via IVF and this was a marriage built upon strain and failed expectations. He eventually told me that they'd not had sex in 3 years, and that the 4 years prior to that they'd only had very mechanical sex in order to try and conceive. Yes, I believe he was truthful with me though I am sure her side of the story would vary as most stories do.

 

As we became closer he told me that she had told him at one point years earlier - and I understand this to be quite common in Japanese marriages - that she was happy for him to have a lover, or to see a prostitute, to fulfill his sexual needs because she had no interest at all in that aspect of their relationship. Her only conditions were that she didn't want to know about it and he shouldn't get the woman pregnant. He never acted on this. It actually hurt his feelings to think that she didn't care.

 

So there we are in late May this year - 18 months into a friendship that's become very close though completely platonic - and one night when I am child-free some mutual friends of ours were having a party. It's worth knowing here that she never went to any social events with him, even those held by family, and tried to stop him from doing so whenever possible. But on this occasion she was spending time with a friend and he got 'permission' to go out. He doesn't drink, so when he learned I was going he offered to pick me up as the party is a half hour drive from my home. Great party - bottle of wine under my belt - his mention of his wife's 'permission' echoing in my head - and I grab hold of his hand on the drive home. Yes, it was all instigated by me and was a shock to him. Long story short - we made love. It was wonderful. And we parted as friends, with a lovely experience between us that we never intended to repeat - and yes, we spoke about that on the night.

 

But... yes, I know!... he became completely smitten with me and the feeling of being touched, appreciated, attractive to a woman. He was on a high that he'd never experienced - the usually very serious man was actually singing to himself and grinning for no reason. And his feelings opened up something in me. I am usually very good at keeping sex & emotions separate (I've had FWBs in the past with no problems) but when he started to share that he was falling for me, I found myself reciprocating. It was all messages at first but then we finally met in person again...

 

And so began 4 months of absolute turmoil. He 'separated' from her (told her marriage was over, signed an 'intention to separate' legal doc) two weeks into the affair but remained living in the home - though in a separate room as he already had been for the past 2 years. Here in Australia you have to be separated for a year before you can divorce, but that separation is often started while still living together (hence the legal doc) because the finances and home cannot be divided till the divorce becomes final. So this wasn't unusual. But she asked for - and he agreed to - counselling so that in a way there was still some hope on her part - and some conflict on his side - and I never had complete certainty about how it would all play out. I'd like to think I wasn't really the OW when legally he was considered separated, but our relationship wasn't out in the open, she didn't know, and he was still lying to her and only seeing me when he didn't have work or family obligations so it FELT like an affair and I'm willing to take that label and live with it.

 

No need to really explain how the rest of it worked - it was a typical affair - sneaking around, lies - only different in the fact that he was open about it to many of his friends and family who knew he had separated but was attending counselling, He was attending hoping that she would come to accept the break-up rather than fight - because she had threatened to move back to Japan with their son rather than be a single Mother here in Australia. She was attending hoping to keep him around because in Japanese culture a divorced woman is considered undesirable and a failure. But still, even with the separation there, it was harrowing - and incredibly hard for me as I'd been through it as the BS and felt completely conflicted. I ended it a few times because of this. But I loved him - and him me - and I was clearly too weak to stick to it when the weight of our misery due to being apart started to become too much to bear.

 

In September I finally told him that I was walking away so they could try to work things out. They'd been in counselling for a while but he couldn't possibly give it a genuine try with me in the picture. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. We went NC, and he apparently gave it a good try. But a month later - early October - he finally told her it was never going to work and walked out. He moved in with his business partner, made it public that his marriage was over and essentially at that point we became a real couple. I never took the relationship seriously till that point, and as such kept it a secret from everyone but my closest friends. Yes, I felt shame and I really wish things hadn't worked out this way.

 

But we can't choose who we fall in love with or when. I tried to handle myself in a dignified way but I still made poor choices, as did he. He and his ex-wife are still working things out - and keeping their son at the forefront. I absolutely support everything they choose to do as I know what that's like. His son (nearly 2) and my son (3 in March) adore each other. We hope in time to live together but there's no rush even though it would be better financially for us. We have decided to start afresh - dating, romance - then build up to that point as though the relationship only started last month instead of last May. But it's still difficult sometimes and not all smooth sailing.

 

It's his birthday this week and I will be meeting many of his family and friends for the first time - the first time I've felt like the girlfriend rather than the OW. It's a pretty big deal - his family is important to him - and he's taken the time to tell them all about me personally before we meet. The only person who still doesn't know about me is his ex-wife, and that revelation will wait till legal papers are in order to prevent her from leaving the country with their son. Things are going very well between us though, and we take the time to communicate with each other very openly - it's a very different relationship for both of us than those we've had in the past - much more loving, much more respectful, much more intimate on every level - but we both regret the way it started and wish things had worked out differently.

 

In all honesty I'm not sure why I'm sharing this. I guess I tend to feel that many posts here are of the "My life is falling apart" variety or the "My affair worked out and he's mine now - whoohoo!" variety. Mine is somewhere in the middle - I feel I've ended up in a wonderful relationship with a man who will be in my life a very long time, but I deeply regret the way it happened and given the chance I wouldn't do it again.

 

But when I look at my relationship, and my ex-husband's relationship, I see two connections that started with affairs but were - in my opinion - meant to be, and as such should we allow ourselves to get bogged down in the 'how' or should the end justify the means? I honestly don't know... and I'm by no means at the end of my story - but I do feel that even though there is that small chance you will end up with your MM or MW, the journey to get there can completely eat you up inside and cause all kinds of turmoil for everyone involved. Sure, it may settle down in time and leave a bunch of happy people in the wake of the turmoil, but I'd never advocate getting into an affair and I wish I didn't have that stigma attached to my conscience.

 

So yes, I'm an OW who ended up with her MM but I feel no sense of victory. I know I will always have that 'if he cheats WITH you he'll cheat ON you' mantra in the back of my mind even though I know my BF well enough that it's unlikely. Still, with my existing trust issues from one abusive and one adulterous marriage in my past it's something I wish I didn't have to think about.

 

Sorry for the very long post but considering that I've never been able to share the entirety of my story with anyone, this has been helpful to me - and, hopefully, to someone else out there. I guess for me the moral of the story is: Even the perceived 'best outcome' for an OW or OM in an affair - i.e. you win the prize - has a taint to it that a relationship started the normal way would not. And in all honesty I'm not sure that I would ever want to do it again.

 

I asked a coupla Japanese dudes about the prostitute deal, I eat out at thryre joint a lot, thy do great food - anyway, thy laughed in my face.Serious dude, u thnk its normal in Japan for a girl to say 'hey dude, go f*ck anotha woman or hey, a hooker, its fine by me'? Just sayin, thy laughed at me. Thy said it was kinda insultin.

 

Anyway hopefuly everythin works out 4 u, but watch his mouth, someones tellin a few littl lies, thts all im sayin.

[18Years2Late]

Welcome to LS...

 

I also see a red flag here...I certainly don't mean anything negative and I hope it works out well for you...

 

That said...u said the his W is 10 years older than him...he was very shy...and the reason why he married her is because she showed interest in him like no one ever had...so...she showed interest and bam...he married her...that seems a little insecure to me...or maybe needy?...and she probably has him on a short, controling leash because HE LIKES IT THAT WAY...he's comfortable with that...he probably doesn't even realize it but he is...so eventually if you don't "control" him...he may not be "comfortable" anymore...and the next woman who shows "interest" and bam...he cheats on you and leaves you for her...

 

My xMM is married to an extremely controlling woman...8 years his senior...she was the pursuer...she moved his stuff to her apartment while he was at work...she asked him to marry her...sometimes he couldnt even form his own thoughts...and since I dated xMM 18 years ago for many years and I remember what he was like then...it was heart-breaking for me to see the weak man he had become...but he had ample opportunities to leave her and run to me...he couldn't...he was too weak to even remove himself and his children from a dreadful situation...a situation so dreadful that my only explanation for it is that he's comfortable...he likes it...and he's right where he wants to be...no matter how painful it is...

 

So I hope that shed a little insight for you on the controlling woman, weak man...maybe not completely your situation...but just so you know the possibilities...

 

I just read a book called "Women who love too much"...very good book...hard to read emotionally if it applies to you...but good book...you should read it...I also think they're are men who love too much...maybe not with all the symptoms...but close...

 

Anyway...good luck to you...just guard your heart...

[LilyBart]

Congratulations Rabbit!

 

I too believe that when two people are meant to be together, in the end, they will be.

 

Life is not as simple as some people claim it is. Sure, it would be nice if BOTH countries won the war, if BOTH teams won the playoffs, if EVERYONE got the first place blue ribbon - but that's not how the world works is it?

 

Thanks for sharing your story.

[NoIDidn't]

Welcome to LS...

 

I also see a red flag here...I certainly don't mean anything negative and I hope it works out well for you...

 

That said...u said the his W is 10 years older than him...he was very shy...and the reason why he married her is because she showed interest in him like no one ever had...so...she showed interest and bam...he married her...that seems a little insecure to me...or maybe needy?...and she probably has him on a short, controling leash because HE LIKES IT THAT WAY...he's comfortable with that...he probably doesn't even realize it but he is...so eventually if you don't "control" him...he may not be "comfortable" anymore...and the next woman who shows "interest" and bam...he cheats on you and leaves you for her...

 

My xMM is married to an extremely controlling woman...8 years his senior...she was the pursuer...she moved his stuff to her apartment while he was at work...she asked him to marry her...sometimes he couldnt even form his own thoughts...and since I dated xMM 18 years ago for many years and I remember what he was like then...it was heart-breaking for me to see the weak man he had become...but he had ample opportunities to leave her and run to me...he couldn't...he was too weak to even remove himself and his children from a dreadful situation...a situation so dreadful that my only explanation for it is that he's comfortable...he likes it...and he's right where he wants to be...no matter how painful it is...

 

So I hope that shed a little insight for you on the controlling woman, weak man...maybe not completely your situation...but just so you know the possibilities...

 

I just read a book called "Women who love too much"...very good book...hard to read emotionally if it applies to you...but good book...you should read it...I also think they're are men who love too much...maybe not with all the symptoms...but close...

 

Anyway...good luck to you...just guard your heart...

 

I was going to post the exact same thing. I, too, noticed that Rabbit had to grab his hand and initiate things, or they would have never happened. He sounds very insecure. And I point it out, not because it means he will cheat again, but because it will become a factor in the relationship with him and there will be a need to help him deal with it.

 

A minor thing possibly, or a major thing. Not enough info here to say either way. But the so-called controlling woman (made so because her man is weak), weak man coupling is very real. They can be happy together, but if you didn't want to be that woman, it can begin to wear on you.

 

Good luck.

[RabbitHole]

Thanks for responses

 

Kristismiles - Let me clarify that a little. She would happily concede to him spending 12 hour days in the office, but when he would want to take her to a family dinner or something she'd refuse and then not want him to go. She was controlling with things like spending money, what he wore, where they went, what they did - because she wanted it all her way. She grew up as a single child in a rich family and expected to be taken care of and be catered to - probably part of the reason she chose a young, naive 10 years younger to marry. But believe me - if he said, even in the middle of the night, that he was going to the office to work she was okay with it. That was usually his excuse when we spent time together.

 

Robf - I do believe I can trust him, but I will still be cautious. He didn't seek out an affair - if anything I started it - and soon after it started he began the process of ending his marriage. So I do believe that if he didn't want to be with me any longer he would simply end it. He went through an incredible amount of turmoil over the whole thing - including being diagnosed with depression & starting on anti-depressants - and has said many times he'd never go through it again. Neither would I. And I believe us

 

Phillyfan - I have a fair amount of Japanese friends & deep knowledge of the culture (would rather not explain why here, identifying info) and it's quite well known that in Japanese culture there's a kind of unspoken rule that you don't leave your wife. Maybe you fool around and everyone turns a blind eye, but you keep the family together unless you're a scumbag. Of course that may be an older way of thinking (think back to Geishas etc...) and may even not be prevalent in some of the bigger, more Westernised cities etc... but it still remains that it's a common way of thought. Case in point, I found this reference on this very site:

 

(can't refer back to post but I'll cut/paste)

 

"When I was in Japan, I noticed that people had affairs and the betrayed spouses didn't really have to know about it. I think on some level they suspected that their partner might have had some sort of affair with another partner, but they didn't have to know the truth. The bottom line was, 'don't leave me' for another person. Shag another person if you want, but don't divorce."

 

Probably not with prostitutes as such - I suspect his wife suggested that simply because there are legal brothels where we live and this would avoid the 'getting her pregnant' fear she had, and probably the fear that he'd become emotionally involved...which of course did happen.

 

Thanks again guys

[RabbitHole]

Wisernow & LilyBart,

 

Thank you I certainly hope it works out, and I feel that it will. But time will tell. We're just enjoying the day to day for now - though I'm very nervous about meeting the whole family tomorrow night.

 

A telling point - when he told his family & friends that he'd separated from his wife, none of them were surprised. Many then confessed to wondering why he'd stayed for so long.

 

Then when he told them about me, they all seemed to ask similar questions: "Are you happy? Is she fun? Do you laugh together?" and when he answered yes to these things, they were supportive and keen to meet me.

 

I think the support of the family is a good start & very important to him moving forward, so the meeting is a big deal. Fingers crossed it all goes well!

 

To NoIDidn't & 18Years2Late,

 

He's not a weak man. It took a lot of courage for him to leave and do what he did. But he IS a calm, laid-back, easygoing person and he hates conflict. He went along with her to avoid this, put his foot down when he felt the need or when he felt she was being too OTT. I guess effectively he chose his battles.

 

That said, I have quite a strong personality and I'm an organiser - he's more fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants, easygoing guy. He likes me to take the reins of - say - our social life and just ask him if he wants to do something then tell him when to be ready. And this suits me just fine! So I do realise he enjoys some degree of the partner being in charge - but does not enjoy controlling behaviour. I think sometimes there can be a thin line and we both need to be aware of that

[RabbitHole]

Dear rabbit,

 

Thank you for your honesty and insight. I do believe you can make this situation work in your favor.

 

I, like others are a bit miffed and hope you protect your heart. I'm weary that the W doesn't know the whole story and has been left in the dark. She will surely find out the truth in time. Are you and you MM/bf prepared for that fall out? I think it's shady that you and her H are willingly participants in her not knowing the truth until the D I final, and the child is safely ensconced in Australia. Pretty much think that is shady dealings and not above board for the child or mama. You had me until this.

 

I hope your relationship works, wish you much happiness. Just give the mother of his child the same. Be honest. She is a Japanese national, her family and most likely support is there. To hide the truth from her (to keep baby there) is frankly, wrong.

 

It's all good, if all involved are participants in the decisions, she is not, and baby is involved. Your MM needs to be honest with the mother of his child. Give her the straight truth, let her make her decision, and press. Deception is not the answer.

 

Thank you again for sharing your story and I wish you the best.

 

I agree that he should have told her this, and I've advocated honesty here - but he feels that if she knew about me at this point she will do the wrong thing by him, taking their son back to Japan, and the rules of Japan would make it very difficult for him to ever see his son again if she did so.

 

What they have, instead, chosen to do is for him to continue to support her & their son financially the way he's always done, but allow her to live in Japan for 3 months, then Australia for 3 months, and so on until their son starts school. They both agree he should be educated here. In fact, the ex-wife & son are both in Japan right now - and he will go over to pick up the son next month and bring him home alone till the ex-wife returns in January. At that point he intends to tell her about me once the child custody agreement has been signed and protects her from fleeing the country. He now thinks she's unlikely to do that as long as the 3 months on/3 months off deal continues, but he needs to protect himself. He is a very involved, loving Father and would be devastated to lose access to his son.

 

I do understand that it would be better for her to know about me, but the decision about what to do with their son and where to live etc, and the legalities and agreements involved with that decision, doesn't really involve me at this point. And I feel that right now the child should be ensured a future with two parents in it - I am completely in favour of anything that supports that - and if he feels that holding off on telling her about me will help facilitate that then I need to trust his judgment.

 

Let me also say - I have no ill feeling toward his ex at all. I have never spoken badly of her and I have always told him that I hope some day we can all be civil, friendly and working together to give his son a good & happy life. I mean that with all my heart, because in my own situation with my ex-husband and his partner it is not like that at all.

 

I do feel guilty for my part in their break-up and as much as my BF tells me repeatedly that if it wasn't me it would have been something else that triggered the break-up - and that it would never have lasted - I still take responsibility for my part and regret how it happened.

[RabbitHole]

OP, you paint your mm as a victim of his wife. I hope you come to realize that he signed up for it and went along with it, so there comes a point in time when one is no longer a victim but a willing participant. You also should do some research on how being conflict avoidance makes someone more likely to have an affair(s). One can only be controlled if they allow it.

 

I guess you're right about painting him as a victim, but of course that's in part because he did that himself in the way he told me about everything and I only have the one side of the story to go by. I realise of course that there is more to it that I won't ever know, but there's also more than I do know but haven't shared.

 

I guess the bottom line is that they were both unhappy in different ways and for different reasons long before I came along but while she was willing to continue the marriage and live separate lives, he wanted out but didn't have the strength to do so till we got together. I don't think this is the bravest or most noble way to have handled it on his part, and it isn't the way I would have done things, but I understand it's not uncommon. Considered an 'exit affair', I believe? Though I may be wrong about that.

 

I have been very cautious about him jumping from one relationship to another, and as such we have not moved in together and we have 'date nights' rather than spending every night together. He needs time to get used to his new life, and I don't need to become a surrogate wife. We are really trying very hard to make this work, we talk very openly about everything and I believe we are on the right track. Maybe you're right and these will become issues, maybe they won't - but that would happen no matter how the relationship started and I'm willing to see how it all plays out

 

He's not a perfect man. I'm not a perfect woman. But we love each other, and we're very happy together. It all may have started out in a questionable manner and I know there will be further drama down the track before everything is said and done - but I am hopeful that despite that we can have a happy future together. In some ways I feel I am more aware of his flaws having been through all of this together - as he is mine - and yet we accept and love each other regardless. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't, but I was single a long time by choice - not by lack of options - and it's only now that i find myself willing to commit to someone again even though it's not been an easy road. So that alone makes me sure that what we have is real, and worth working on.

[Angelina527]

"I know I will always have that 'if he cheats WITH you he'll cheat ON you' mantra in the back of my mind even though I know my BF well enough that it's unlikely."

 

I thought the EXACT same thing. I heard all the same lines...my now husband was a victim of a sexless, loveless marriage, blah blah blah. He found all of that and more with me and we were meant to be...that's how I justified the affair. He would NEVER be unfaithful to me because I met all of his needs, and then some.

 

Yeah. I was wrong. I was only hearing one side of the story. And you know what? He was cheating on me before we were even married. I reaped what I sowed and got exactly what I deserved.

 

After two years and a lot of therapy, we've figured out why he was doing those things...guess what...the ex-wife wasn't at all the controlling monster that he led me to believe. The issues were all his, not hers, and certainly not mine. He lied to me, he lied to the OW he cheated on me with. That's what cheaters do. We would all like to think that OUR relationship is different, but the majority of the time it's just not the case.

 

We're nearly healed, but it's taken a lot of hard work on his part...he had to admit that he was no different than most MM, he just hid it well. He was just like the man you are dating. Very laid back, shy, just a great person in general, but he hid that dark part of himself quite well.

[spice4life]

"I know I will always have that 'if he cheats WITH you he'll cheat ON you' mantra in the back of my mind even though I know my BF well enough that it's unlikely."

 

I thought the EXACT same thing. I heard all the same lines...my now husband was a victim of a sexless, loveless marriage, blah blah blah. He found all of that and more with me and we were meant to be...that's how I justified the affair. He would NEVER be unfaithful to me because I met all of his needs, and then some.

 

Yeah. I was wrong. I was only hearing one side of the story. And you know what? He was cheating on me before we were even married. I reaped what I sowed and got exactly what I deserved.

 

After two years and a lot of therapy, we've figured out why he was doing those things...guess what...the ex-wife wasn't at all the controlling monster that he led me to believe. The issues were all his, not hers, and certainly not mine. He lied to me, he lied to the OW he cheated on me with. That's what cheaters do. We would all like to think that OUR relationship is different, but the majority of the time it's just not the case.

 

We're nearly healed, but it's taken a lot of hard work on his part...he had to admit that he was no different than most MM, he just hid it well. He was just like the man you are dating. Very laid back, shy, just a great person in general, but he hid that dark part of himself quite well.

 

Wow...sorry to hear you had such a tough journey. I'm not in your situation and the person I was involved with never talked about his wife at all, but I often wondered about that if I did end up with him. It was something that was in the back of my mind when I allowed my mind to wonder about what it would be like if we ended up together. If we did up in a real relationship, I knew "I" wouldn't cheat because I'm very loyal that way, but I wondered if he would. I even wondered if he had "others" while with me. I guess that is one of the main reasons I kept an emotional distance aside from the fact that he was married.

 

Anyway, kudos to you for sticking it out and having faith that he had a better man inside of him. That takes a lot of courage. You in essence walked through fire to make the marriage work. Good for you!

 

I think I would have been devastated if that happened to me due to an exbf cheating on me with my best friend many many years ago. It was a horrible experience, so I don't quite know how I would react to that kind of news. As a matter of fact, when I read posts about people cheating on their SO with someone that is a friend to both of them, I get triggered. I feel that is the ultimate betrayal. Guess I should work on healing that old wound.

 

Maybe that is why I NEVER asked him about his wife or their relationship. I also got extremely uncomfortable when he wore his wedding band. It made her too real and I didn't want to go there. In any case, I will never get involved with another married man and I will never cheat on a SO either. I've seen that world from both sides now and it's NOT pretty either way. Meaning I helped someone to cheat...oy! No more for me that's for sure. It's too toxic to the soul.

Edited November 18, 2011 by spice4life

[spice4life]

Just a quick thought for you rabbithole. How is your bf with regard to his family? Is his family important to him? An excellent dating expert told someone, who was worried about ending up with someone who wasn't loyal, to ask her dating prospects about their family and to listen carefully to their responses. If family is important to them and they highly value those relationships, then they are a loyal person. I was so relieved to hear that because I was accused of things that I know for a fact are not a part of my true character. It made me doubt myself. I know for certain that if I am in a loving committed relationship I would not cheat. If I was unhappy and we couldn't work out our differences, I would just end it instead and not resort to cheating. Why cheat when you can free yourself to go find happiness? That's my motto and I'm sticking to it. And why take someone elses choice to find happiness away out of fear of hurting them. It's always better to end the relationship honestly, so the other person can heal and move on. Sorry for wondering off topic with this.

 

It sounds like your guy is moving in that direction. I hope it works out for you. Best wishes on your journey.

Edited November 18, 2011 by spice4life

[Anna101]

Hmm.

 

I also ended up with my MM (and also in Australia, so they are not divorced yet). I really want to advise you that this early 'starting again' period is all good and everything, but it can get FAR FAR harder when you begin living together and the divorce proceedings begin and so on. My advice would be to take it very slow. We live together now and have a son, and so there ARE occasions where the MM leaves the marriage, but the hard part begins later when things settle down. I believe I do have a touch of 'second wife syndrome'.

 

I also believe the whole 'they'll cheat again' thing is absolute rubbish. NOT because I am better than his wife etc, but solely because they now know how stressful and painful it is. I think someone who has no idea how hard it is to keep up the lying is far more likely to do it than those who have been down the path. Even the OW, I'd rather chop my head off than go down that road again. Everyone is an individual.

 

 

Anyway good luck, hope things continue to work out for you.

[RabbitHole]

Just a quick thought for you rabbithole. How is your bf with regard to his family? Is his family important to him? An excellent dating expert told someone, who was worried about ending up with someone who wasn't loyal, to ask her dating prospects about their family and to listen carefully to their responses. If family is important to them and they highly value those relationships, then they are a loyal person. I was so relieved to hear that because I was accused of things that I know for a fact are not a part of my true character. It made me doubt myself. I know for certain that if I am in a loving committed relationship I would not cheat. If I was unhappy and we couldn't work out our differences, I would just end it instead and not resort to cheating. Why cheat when you can free yourself to go find happiness? That's my motto and I'm sticking to it. And why take someone elses choice to find happiness away out of fear of hurting them. It's always better to end the relationship honestly, so the other person can heal and move on. Sorry for wondering off topic with this.

 

It sounds like your guy is moving in that direction. I hope it works out for you. Best wishes on your journey.

 

Hi there

 

His family is very important to him - actually, it was his birthday yesterday and it was the first time I went to a family gathering (his party at a restaurant) with many of his friends/family (about 25 in total, about 8 of which I had met before). They were all very close, they all clearly adore him and they were all very accepting of me and welcomed me into the 'family' so to speak. It was a really lovely evening.

 

I will not go so far as to say I KNOW he wouldn't cheat on me or that I feel he is a very honest person - because I know if someone can do something once they can do it again, and if he lied to his wife of 10 years then of course he could lie to me - but I do feel that our relationship is very different from his marriage, and was told as much a few times last night, and I think that had he not been looking for an 'out' we wouldn't have ever gotten together. Should our relationship ever sour, I will be very cautious and look for those signs. But till then, I do feel very sure he wouldn't cheat on me.