When good people have affairs

[Cabin]

I recently read Mira Kirshenbaum's "When Good People Have Affairs" and though it would be a good idea to share two thoughts from it:

 

1) She provides a framework for comparing your M to your A relationship:

 

There are, in fact, only four dimensions when it comes to comparing potential partners:

1. Who the people are in themselves.

2. What your relationship is with each one.

3. What your lifestyle would be with each.

4. Who you are with each.

 

2) She talks about how necessary it is for any romantic relationship to have these five elements of chemistry:

 

 

 

 

Fun: When it's just the two of you, no other couples, no kids, no toys (like a boat), and no props (like a party or a club), do you feel that there's always the real possibility that the two of you will find some way to have fun together, and does this, in fact, happen fairly often?

 

Safety: By and large, do you feel safe being with the other person? And do you feel that you're particularly safe from being hurt physically or emotionally? And do you feel that you're safe when it's most important to you, when you're being vulnerable or personal or intimate?

 

Mutual Respect: Even though you're aware of the other person's flaws, do you basically, overall, respect him/her as they are right now? Not necessarily that he/she's a fantastic genius, but that in most ways he/she's solid, capable, responsible, smart, and kind, and generally makes good decisions. And does he/she treat you as if he/she generally believes that right now, just as you are, you're solid, capable, responsible, smart, and kind, and generally make good decisions?

 

Physical Chemistry: Does the other person feel right to you physically? Their smell, their touch, the way they look. Not perfect, not necessarily great, but right for you. And do you clearly get the sense that you're right for your partner physically? And does the amount and nature of the physical affection between you feel right? And does the way you make love feel right?

 

Easy Connections: When it's just the two of you, and you're able to leave the stress of day-to-day life behind, and you're not mad at each other, does it feel easy, comfortable, relaxing to be together, and do you feel connected, not like polite strangers who happen to get along, but like lovers who are close? And is it like this more often than not?

 

You're supposed to ask these five questions about both your SO, as well as your AP. As I said, these are the five ingredients of relationship chemistry, and you need all five ingredients to make the relationship work. You don't have to have a lot of each ingredient, but you have to at least have some!

 

My H and I might have had a little of two of them, but zero of others. I have all five with my AP.

 

This is a great book for those deciding whether to leave their primary relationship to be with their AP.

[denise_xo]

I guess my question in general would not be so much 'which of these factors do you have with whom', but rather 'how do you maintain them in the long run'. I think the 'fun', 'easy connection' and 'physical chemistry' parts are especially easy to mobilise during the falling in love/infatuation phase, and require more active work to maintain after the honey moon phase is over. In that sense, it seems to me that comparing e.g. a twenty year old marriage to a five month A is often like comparing apples and oranges.

[whichwayisup]

This is a great book for those deciding whether to leave their primary relationship to be with their AP.

 

Easy Connections: When it's just the two of you, and you're able to leave the stress of day-to-day life behind, and you're not mad at each other, does it feel easy, comfortable, relaxing to be together, and do you feel connected, not like polite strangers who happen to get along, but like lovers who are close? And is it like this more often than not?

 

Not sure how an affair couple has the same daily stress to deflate from as a married couple seeing as with AP's there's no house, money issues, kids, inlaws, family, friends in the mix. That's comparing apples to oranges.

[Silly_Girl]

I guess my question in general would not be so much 'which of these factors do you have with whom', but rather 'how do you maintain them in the long run'. I think the 'fun', 'easy connection' and 'physical chemistry' parts are especially easy to mobilise during the falling in love/infatuation phase, and require more active work to maintain after the honey moon phase is over. In that sense, it seems to me that comparing e.g. a twenty year old marriage to a five month A is often like comparing apples and oranges.

 

That depends. If you NEVER had the majority of them with your spouse, yet get all of them with your AP there's no denying that's a pretty strong indicator.

[despicableME]

This is a great book for those deciding whether to leave their primary relationship to be with their AP.

 

You have to understand that when reading literature such as this, you tend to apply it in a positive light toward your own situation. People cease to be "good" when they cross that line- plain and simple. Its almost like a horoscope, when you say- "Oh yeah, that's so true about me." We use it to solidify that belief in ouselves, or our current state of being(situation).

 

I think most of us who have been in this situation could say the same thing. The only difference is that some leave their current spouses, while others don't. As you've stated, its a good read if you're leaving your spouse for AP- maybe even helps you justify it- but not pertinent when you're aware the DECEPTION is wrong, no matter how many books you read on the subject.

Edited November 19, 2011 by despicableME

[Silly_Girl]

To the original posting.

 

Are you really this gullible to pop psychology?

 

Is it gullible? Is it to be discarded summarily? Or is it another facet to be thrown in to the mix along with a dozen others?

[despicableME]

That depends. If you NEVER had the majority of them with your spouse, yet get all of them with your AP there's no denying that's a pretty strong indicator.

 

But isn't that why you get married in the first place... because you have these things in common. You don't just marry someone because you can only find commonality on some levels... you marry someone because you click on "so many levels." Its just the novelty of this new relationship(with AP) that makes you feel this way. This thought process is just an escapist mentality from the mundane of the current relationship- you're projecting "positives" onto the new situation, while breaking-down the current one for the benefit of justifying attitudes and behavior.

[Silly_Girl]

But isn't that why you get married in the first place... because you have these things in common. You don't just marry someone because you can only find commonality on some levels... you marry someone because you click on "so many levels." Its just the novelty of this new relationship(with AP) that makes you feel this way. This thought process is just an escapist mentality from the mundane of the current relationship- you're projecting "positives" onto the new situation, while breaking-down the current one for the benefit of justifying attitudes and behavior.

 

Perhaps that's your take on marriage. Perhaps you're projecting

 

Are you suggesting no marriage is a blatant error of judgement perhaps borne of naïveté or stupidity or immaturity? All couples who marry are well- suited? That's not my experience.

[SoMovinOn]

Not sure how an affair couple has the same daily stress to deflate from as a married couple seeing as with AP's there's no house, money issues, kids, inlaws, family, friends in the mix. That's comparing apples to oranges.

 

How do A's make those things magically disappear? I have much more "real life" with my GF than my W. I've locked my W out of anything to do with my finances and pay all the bills. When there is a financial decision to me made, it's discussed with GF. We are involved with each other's families and friends. If there is a medical issue with GF or I, we're there together.

 

I know people make this claim all the time, and it's true in some A's, but it's not at all true in others.

[SoMovinOn]

This thought process is just an escapist mentality from the mundane of the current relationship- you're projecting "positives" onto the new situation, while breaking-down the current one for the benefit of justifying attitudes and behavior.

 

The current R is obviously already broken down prior to the A, otherwise, there'd be no A.

[Severely Unamused]

The current R is obviously already broken down prior to the A, otherwise, there'd be no A.

 

But I thought that life wasn't so black and white.

[Cabin]

You have to understand that when reading literature such as this, you tend to apply it in a positive light toward your own situation. People cease to be "good" when they cross that line- plain and simple. Its almost like a horoscope, when you say- "Oh yeah, that's so true about me." We use it to solidify that belief in ouselves, or our current state of being(situation). .

 

Not sure your point is really worth making here... I mean, isn't that why people read ANYTHING? To make meaning of their current situations?

 

As you've stated, its a good read if you're leaving your spouse for AP- maybe even helps you justify it- but not pertinent when you're aware the DECEPTION is wrong, no matter how many books you read on the subject.

 

Perhaps you ought to familiarize yourself with a text before you decide you've got it all figured out. The book actually goes through, very logically and empathetically, how to proceed with either restoring the marriage and making it thrive or leaving it to be with your AP.

 

Since deception is wrong, you must be a betrayed spouse and not someone who would ever cheat... (smirk)

[Cabin]

To the original posting.

 

Are you really this gullible to pop psychology?

 

 

Written by a family and couples' counsellor with 30 years experience, I don't think there's anything too "pop" about it.

 

I've also recently read:

-His Needs, Her Needs

-The Passionate Marriage

-The Five Love Languages

 

Now those are all about maintaining marriages - thus heavily touted and respected on these boards - even though they sit on the shelf right next to the book in question and are written by "experts" with similar credentials.

 

I think it is refreshing that someone has written a thoughtful considerate book for those who find themselves in an A and has offered some solid suggestions to begin shaping the future.

 

Why would anyone write a book for cheaters, you know, the selfish scum of the earth? Maybe because 50% of the population finds themselves in this boat at some point.

[Cabin]

But isn't that why you get married in the first place... because you have these things in common. You don't just marry someone because you can only find commonality on some levels... you marry someone because you click on "so many levels." .

 

The reasons why people get married, and the reasons why they choose the person they choose, are infinite.

 

But no, given the 50% divorce rate, I don't think it's safe to say that everyone who gets married clicks on all the right levels.

[despicableME]

Cabin- If you decided to read my threads and posts, you'd know that I'm in the same boat you and you're AP are(workplace affairs). The only difference is that I'm not leaving my wife- she's divorcing me because I came clean. My AP, just like you, wanted to leave her husband for me. Only, I didn't get caught-up in the emotional aspect of it.

 

The thing is, I tend not to ROMANTICIZE my situation.

[Cabin]

Cabin- If you decided to read my threads and posts, you'd know that I'm in the same boat you and you're AP are(workplace affairs). The only difference is that I'm not leaving my wife- she's divorcing me because I came clean. My AP, just like you, wanted to leave her husband for me. Only, I didn't get caught-up in the emotional aspect of it.

 

The thing is, I tend not to ROMANTICIZE my situation.

 

You and I are not in the same boat. We may each have had an A, but that's about the only commonality I see.

 

I think it's terrific that you don't romanticize your situation. To "romanticize" is to assign romantic associations where they don't belong, and by the sounds of it, you were having a physical relationship with little, if any, emotional attachment.

 

Good for you.

[despicableME]

I don't think it's safe to say that everyone who gets married clicks on all the right levels.

 

You said it yourself, yet you state that you're current AP is ALL THAT and then some... so which is it.

 

The divorce rate is much hight than 50%... its more like 65%. And given time it climbs higher... given certain situations(as in environment) it climbs even higher... what's you point?

 

I'm not here to judge you on a personal level. You do what you want. It just bothers me that whenever someone sees things for what they REALLY are, you tend to throw some bogus intellectual psycho-babble to justify your situation. You don't need to read every book on the subject to know that your TOTALLY infatuated with your AP, and see no wrong in him, or your current state of "affairs". By the way, I'm highly respected in my current field, but don't see the need to come off as an elitist when delving into my situation. I don't need to act like a snob just to get my point across.

Edited November 20, 2011 by despicableME

[despicableME]

You and I are not in the same boat. We may each have had an A, but that's about the only commonality I see.

 

The only difference is that we're not leaving our spouses... other than that its the same template. Although every situation is indeed unique, there are constants within them: where they take place and reasons behind intitiating them being some factors.

Edited November 20, 2011 by despicableME

[heartinlove]

You said it yourself, yet you state that you're current AP is ALL THAT and then some... so which is it.

 

The divorce rate is much hight than 50%... its more like 65%. And given time it climbs higher... given certain situations(as in environment) it climbs even higher... what's you point?

 

I'm not here to judge you on a personal level. You do what you want. It just bothers me that whenever someone sees things for what they REALLY are. You tend to throw some bogus intellectual psycho-babble to justify your situation. You don't need to read every book on the subject to know that your TOTALLY infatuated with your AP, and see no wrong in him, or your current state of "affairs". By the way, I'm highly respected in my current field, but don't see the need to come off as an elitist when delving into my situation. I don't need to act like a snob just to get my point across.

 

You really come off as a know it all and that all affairs are the same as yours and do not really acknowledge the possibility that oh my, some married people are actually fall in love with their AP's and that it could actually be real love and they are genuinely conflicted and really more compatible with their AP's than their spouses.

 

Just because you never got attached emotionally(which I dont think is something to brag about, it implies a certain shallowness on your part to risk your marriage for a woman you didn't love), doesn't mean that no one else did or that everyone who says they are in love with their AP's have their heads up their asses because thats what you imply. Do you mean to always come off as one who knows it all and just sees it all clearly where everyone else clearly is delusional? If not, that is how you come off.

[Saul Goodman]

Just because you never got attached emotionally

From what I've read from your posts, you were emotionally attached to your OW, weren't you dM?

 

Which is one of the reasons why splitting up from her has become more difficult.

 

I mean, speaking from personal experience, if I was only interested in a person for sex...I'd f_ck 'em and move on pretty quickly.

[despicableME]

When and where did I EVER state that I "know it all." I just call it how I see it. I have no control over people who get offended when my opinions contradict thier beliefs. I've never personally attacked anyone here or forced my opinions on ANYONE. You, like many of us here, take what you need and discard the rest. No one person has the last word here... this is board filled with opinions and viewpoints... if it goes against the grain, then they're up for a good debate.

[despicableME]

From what I've read from your posts, you were emotionally attached to your OW, weren't you dM?

 

Which is one of the reasons why splitting up from her has become more difficult.

 

I mean, speaking from personal experience, if I was only interested in a person for sex...I'd f_ck 'em and move on pretty quickly.

 

Now you're just stirring the pot to see if I'll bite. You read my threads and posts. It's all there in black and white... if that's what you came away with, then "so be it." I know what I wrote, and that's where it ends.

 

Sure anyone can just f@#$ and move on. But when the f@#$ing is pretty damn good, its rather hard isn't it.

Edited November 20, 2011 by despicableME

[Saul Goodman]

Now you're just stirring the pot to see if I'll bite. You read my threads and posts. It's all there in black and white... if that's what you came away with, then "so be it." I know what I wrote, and that's where it ends.

 

Okay, so the answer is "yes". You have (in some way or form) a very strong emotional attachment to your MOW.

 

That's why I disagree with the posters that said that your affair was only physical in nature. That isn't how you feel.

[despicableME]

Saul, you're a funny guy. Like I said, think what you wanna think... NEXT!

[Saul Goodman]

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Edited November 20, 2011 by Saul Goodman
Forget it...getting silly.