When good people have affairs

[MissBee]

]I guess my question in general would not be so much 'which of these factors do you have with whom'' date=' but rather '[i']how do you maintain them in the long run[/i]'. I think the 'fun', 'easy connection' and 'physical chemistry' parts are especially easy to mobilise during the falling in love/infatuation phase, and require more active work to maintain after the honey moon phase is over. In that sense, it seems to me that comparing e.g. a twenty year old marriage to a five month A is often like comparing apples and oranges.[/b]

 

Hadn't read the whole thread before responding, but your point is similar to one of my own. I agree! I think considering long term projections and how you guys will deal with change, conflict, what's the growth potential, are your life paths compatible are essential to assessing the sustainability of a relationship.

I think sometimes in an A it is difficult to realistically assess some things....as you just don't have the room to see those things.

 

I have rave reviews about my former AP in many things but I realistically didn't really know how we'd fare as a regular couple, after years have passed, what was the growth potential etc. Well actually, in some ways I did know, because I did say we'd not make sense in each other's lives although other great elements were there.

 

I've said before that I don't believe that you only have one soulmate...but I do believe you have a number of people that you're a fit for or you can be happy with etc and I think "the one" is that person where all the factors, including longterm sustainability, right timing, right circumstance is in your favor. I do think some relationships can be right on many levels but not on others...example, if only I had met you before I was married. If only we lived on the same continent. If only xyz. I do believe that you can never well have a connection and they may be part of your "soulmate group" but if certain obstacles are in place then maybe they aren't "the one".My AP is a great guy but he's not "the one" because of many elements that seemed external that were working against us.

[MissBee]

But isn't that why you get married in the first place... because you have these things in common. You don't just marry someone because you can only find commonality on some levels... you marry someone because you click on "so many levels." Its just the novelty of this new relationship(with AP) that makes you feel this way. This thought process is just an escapist mentality from the mundane of the current relationship- you're projecting "positives" onto the new situation, while breaking-down the current one for the benefit of justifying attitudes and behavior.

 

People marry for all kinds of reasons....not all marriages are created equally, gotten into equally etc.

 

I do think MANY, if not most, people marry for very dubious reasons. My parents for example, I do not think the way I consider marriage, the fact that I have a legitimate list of qualities I desire in a partner, the fact that I am very intentional about dating, the fact that I know what I will and won't deal with, the fact that as I plan my career, education everything else, so too do I consider my romantic life seriously, the fact that I am trying to know MYSELF before I join "forever" with another etc....they didn't think like that or as deeply about it. I think they married because of other reasons that were more along the lines of "I think I love you....we have 2 kids....lets just marry. Many people are married, it'll be fine".

 

Your own level of self-awareness and emotional/spiritual maturity reflect in the other choices you make....romance/marriage being one of the key ones.

[Silly_Girl]

does it seem like you two will face them together as a team or each person will retreat and do their own thing, find another lover behind the other's back, be passive aggressive etc. That is very important to me: we're going to disagree/argue...so I need to find out HOW. People don't often think of this as an important part in choosing a partner...they'd rather pretend they'll just never argue but I need to be with someone who our arguments are productive and in the end and we resolve them in a manner that makes us both feel good.

 

 

I remember saying, during the affair, "how do you think we'd argue, what would our styles be I wonder?". He said " do you think we'd argue then?". I responded "Hell yes!!!"

 

Our resolution style is great in person, really great. It's pretty constructive and can be difficult but never feels negative because it's in pursuit of something better. We limit the time spent on it so it doesn't drag on, and there's never any sulking. However, it's rubbish when it's remote. I end up feeling like 'teacher' and he goes mostly quiet. We still get there, but jeez, at times it can be like pulling teeth!

[pureinheart]

Cabin- If you decided to read my threads and posts, you'd know that I'm in the same boat you and you're AP are(workplace affairs). The only difference is that I'm not leaving my wife- she's divorcing me because I came clean. My AP, just like you, wanted to leave her husband for me. Only, I didn't get caught-up in the emotional aspect of it.

 

The thing is, I tend not to ROMANTICIZE my situation.

 

I got to this post (#17), and DM I don't know your story at all...so, with that was extremely captivated by your statement, "Only, I didn't get caught up in the emotional aspect of it." I find this intriguing, describing compartmentalisation and detachment to a tee. This is the same reason I divorced my husband...he "loved" me, although was always looking for someone better...I was there all of the time, he just could not see it until I was gone. I realised I could never "feed" his insatiable desire...it was never "me" it was him.

[woinlove]

I got to this post (#17), and DM I don't know your story at all...so, with that was extremely captivated by your statement, "Only, I didn't get caught up in the emotional aspect of it." I find this intriguing, describing compartmentalisation and detachment to a tee. This is the same reason I divorced my husband...he "loved" me, although was always looking for someone better...I was there all of the time, he just could not see it until I was gone. I realised I could never "feed" his insatiable desire...it was never "me" it was him.

 

DM said he doesn't love the MOW. There's a big difference between a H who loves you but says he is not getting caught up in the emotional aspect of your M, compared to a MM who does not love the OW and says he is not getting caught up in the emotional aspect in the affair. I agree a H who loves you and behaves that way has serious problems. Any married person having a secret affair has to do some compartmentalizing.

[Afishwithabike]

I'm glad I found this thread. A lot of people seem to stand in judgement of those who find themselfs in extramarrital affairs. You don't plan for something like this to happen. Sometimes you just meet someone along life's pathway and wham - the chemistry hits you like a brick wall. Then you are faced with a challenge.

 

When you've been married for a long time and have raised children, it changes your relationship dramatically. It changes both husband and wife - sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. You're not the same couple you were when you got married. That's why when you meet someone new that you find a connection with, it is a great temptation.

 

I myself have been married 22 years. I have not had an affair but have been tempted. I know that my husband was involved with a woman a few years ago (not sure to what extent). I would never stand in judgement of someone else as if I were perfect and faultless.

 

Judging isn't always wrong. We judge all day long. Show me someone who says he doesn't judge and I'll show you someone who isn't being honest. We make decisions and come to conclusions every day multiple times a day. We have to in order to get through the day. There's nothing wrong with judgement. We can use our intelligence, common sense, intuition, experience and values to go on with life in a healthy, happy manner doing the least harm we can to others. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. I do.

 

We each have an internal understanding of what is good and wrong. I don't have to consider myself divine or morally superior to know extramarital affairs are wrong. When one takes a vow to forsake all others and then secretly leaves the marriage without telling the spouse, it's wrong. There's nothing right or romantic about it. There's nothing wrong with saying that's wrong. If you want to sleep with someone other than your spouse either ask for an open marriage so your spouse has a chance to do it or do the honorable thing by getting a divorce.

[woinlove]

I recently read Mira Kirshenbaum's "When Good People Have Affairs" and though it would be a good idea to share two thoughts from it:

 

1) She provides a framework for comparing your M to your A relationship:

 

There are, in fact, only four dimensions when it comes to comparing potential partners:

1. Who the people are in themselves.

2. What your relationship is with each one.

3. What your lifestyle would be with each.

4. Who you are with each.

 

 

When one has to make a checklist for comparing an M and an A or comparing partners in order to decide what to do, it might be a good time to spend some time with oneself and work on the most important R of all - the one we have with ourselves.

[Silly_Girl]

When one has to make a checklist for comparing an M and an A or comparing partners in order to decide what to do, it might be a good time to spend some time with oneself and work on the most important R of all - the one we have with ourselves.

 

And then what? Everything is magically clear and there's no longer serious decisions to be made that require a lot of careful consideration about various aspects of one's own life and the lives of others? 'Cos that would be great.

[Spark1111]

Judging isn't always wrong. We judge all day long. Show me someone who says he doesn't judge and I'll show you someone who isn't being honest. We make decisions and come to conclusions every day multiple times a day. We have to in order to get through the day. There's nothing wrong with judgement. We can use our intelligence, common sense, intuition, experience and values to go on with life in a healthy, happy manner doing the least harm we can to others. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. I do.

 

We each have an internal understanding of what is good and wrong. I don't have to consider myself divine or morally superior to know extramarital affairs are wrong. When one takes a vow to forsake all others and then secretly leaves the marriage without telling the spouse, it's wrong. There's nothing right or romantic about it. There's nothing wrong with saying that's wrong. If you want to sleep with someone other than your spouse either ask for an open marriage so your spouse has a chance to do it or do the honorable thing by getting a divorce.

 

I guess that's the point I was trying to make: I am all for love and happiness.

 

I am all for having the very best relationships you can in this lifetime.

 

If a book gives guidance on how to assess a relationship, and it helps the reader decide to work on it or pull the plug, I'm all for that too!

 

I am an all or nothing person, and either I am all in, or I'm gone.

 

It is the deception that so bothers me; the residual guilt I would always feel about riding into the sunset with Lancelot while King Arthur, a good man, lives in oblivion as to my true motives for ending Camelot.

 

And I think, in time, I would look at Lancelot a little differently as he helped me to deceive, lose my integrity, and be less than I have always been in the name of our true love.

 

We start with a secret between us; one that could never be shared after we are out in the open.

 

Could we be happy? Yes, on some level. We could be gloriously, passionately happy, but it could erode in time as our selfishness comes home to roost and people start to figure out the timeline and look at us a little eskew.

 

But that's just me. And I have heard a million reasons against this, ad nauseum, but I still believe honesty is the best policy and I will reiterate this over and over and over again:

 

Tell the truth about your feelings for another and separate with your integrity intact.

 

You will be more respected than pussy-footing around the affair and everyone suspecting at some point that they have been horribly deluded.

 

Cabin, I hope you have one of those rare exit affairs and have a wonderful and happy future with this man.

 

But the exit affairs I know of have been brutally honest and fair and out in the open within months.

 

I hope, so much for you, your AP is not home reading this book and assessing your relationship based on the five categories.

 

And I just wish he and you were honest with your spouses and your families about it.

[despicableME]

And it's statements like the second one above that make you come off like a pompous know it all.

 

You've got to be kidding me, right? I only pointed out the obvious, or am I wrong? I mean... you tell me... do really need a book to tell yourself you want to be with this man... well... do you?

 

If you want to simplify to the point of exhaustion, all relationships, marriages or otherwise, tend to use the same template.

 

Exactly... ALL includes affairs, so where is yours any different. That's the point I was trying to make.

 

Look Cabin, I'm not here to judge you any way. What I take issue with is the fact that you come on here using literature(because you're a reader); statistics(because you've done research on the subject); and personal accounts(people who've told you affairs DO work out) to justify the affair. All you need to do is say- "I've been unhappy for a VERY long time and found this man, who happens to be a colleague, that makes me very happy." Is that so hard? You don't need to force-feed us all of these philosophical viewpoints and quote literary pundits to further your claim. Furthermore, you address the posters here who sharply disagree with you with boorish, snobbish disdain; all the while accusing ME of being a "pompous know-it-all." How does that work? Again, I have no issue with you, or you're situation... its your life.

[pureinheart]

DM said he doesn't love the MOW. There's a big difference between a H who loves you but says he is not getting caught up in the emotional aspect of your M, compared to a MM who does not love the OW and says he is not getting caught up in the emotional aspect in the affair. I agree a H who loves you and behaves that way has serious problems. Any married person having a secret affair has to do some compartmentalizing.

 

WIL, there is a stange aspect concerning this personality type, and my point was is that this personality type is always looking for something "better"...nothing and noone will ever satisfy this type...which IMO would make an excellent topic for discussion.

[Spark1111]

WIL, there is a stange aspect concerning this personality type, and my point was is that this personality type is always looking for something "better"...nothing and noone will ever satisfy this type...which IMO would make an excellent topic for discussion.

 

Yes it would! These types are always seeking external validation. It's never enough and it is ALWAYS all about them.

 

They have a void they will never fill without a lot of introspection and therapy.

[woinlove]

WIL, there is a stange aspect concerning this personality type, and my point was is that this personality type is always looking for something "better"...nothing and noone will ever satisfy this type...which IMO would make an excellent topic for discussion.

 

In some way, MM/MW having As are mostly looking for something better, maybe just better sex, maybe a better partner, whatever. Probably none of them are great candidates for a long-term committed R unless they look inside themselves and change. I can imagine that those who compartmentalize to the extreme are particularly not good partners. But other types -- those who have little impulse control, or cannot make decisions, etc., don't sound like good partners either.

 

Anyway, I don't see DM's position/feelings as particularly bad. Yes, he deceived his W. But he didn't lead the MOW on, and he had some self-awareness of what he was looking for in an A and tried to confine it. Most people entering an A, have needs which they are determined to fill, but some act so unaware of this and leave a path of destruction in their wake as they try to fill their own needs all while making it seem like they really love others (the AP and/or the BS) when, in reality, they are simply taking care of themselves.

 

Cabin, does this book have good advice for becoming the type of partner who can sustain a long-term committed R? The title seems to suggest reassuring people in affairs they are "good people". I don't like to label people good or bad myself, as I'm not religious, believe people can change if they want, and just don't see the value in labelling others as good or bad. OTOH, labelling actions as good or bad does have value as people can learn to behave different,with more kindness and thought to others.

[norajane]

Cabin, does this book have good advice for becoming the type of partner who can sustain a long-term committed R? The title seems to suggest reassuring people in affairs they are "good people". I don't like to label people good or bad myself, as I'm not religious, believe people can change if they want, and just don't see the value in labelling others as good or bad. OTOH, labelling actions as good or bad does have value as people can learn to behave different,with more kindness and thought to others.

 

I'm put off by the title, too. I feel as though I'd have more respect for the author if it were titled "when ordinary people have affairs" or "when humans have affairs" or "when unhappily married people have affairs".

 

I think I understand why the "good" is there...it's not just "bad" people who have affairs, and having an affair doesn't necessarily make you a "bad" person. But, it just seems so...self-serving.

 

They are doing something "bad"!! They are running away from their problems. They are deceiving their spouse. Out of deception comes pain, and starting a relationship through deception and pain just creates more internal issues to work through before you can have a healthy relationship with someone. It makes things worse - a LOT worse - for other people and yourself before anything positive can come from it. So whatever the book might say about creating and maintaining healthy relationships has to go on the back burner until you first fix the giant mess you, the good person, created. And you will NEVER be able to "fix" the damage to the BS. The BS will then have to do their own very hard work to fix themselves, to fix the damage the good person inflicted upon their psyche. How do they go on to have a good relationship with anyone else after that without having to recover from being sh*t upon by their deceptive spouse?

 

But I guess it makes the cheating spouse feel better to think of themselves as the "good" person who had an affair instead of a selfish person? Does the book talk about learning how to deal with conflict and issues rather than running away from them into the arms of someone else?

Edited November 20, 2011 by norajane

[Mme. Chaucer]

What is the purpose of comparing all the aspects of your relationship with your affair partner with those of your spouse, anyway?

 

Is this to help a person in an affair choose one or the other?

 

What about the person who is okay with the affair situation?

[despicableME]

Don't want to t/j, but had to chime in.

 

Anyway, I don't see DM's position/feelings as particularly bad. Yes, he deceived his W. But he didn't lead the MOW on, and he had some self-awareness of what he was looking for in an A and tried to confine it. Most people entering an A, have needs which they are determined to fill, but some act so unaware of this and leave a path of destruction in their wake as they try to fill their own needs all while making it seem like they really love others (the AP and/or the BS) when, in reality, they are simply taking care of themselves.

 

 

You see... I never wanted to leave my marriage. This was not an "exit" affair by any means- I wasn't looking to trade-up. I really don't think my affair as being about something lacking within my marriage, but something I lacked within myself. My marriage was fine... I'm not going to say great because I find it hard to believe any marriage, or any relationship for that matter is great- ALL THE TIME. The thing is, our BS's will ALWAYS come to think of it as being about THEM. I guess it would be very hard to dispel that notion, given the betrayal.

 

I don't think I led anyone on. From my point of view, an affair doesn't mean we're going to end up together... or does it? I don't think any affair starts off with that type of mentality. I can be very detached at times... it might sound cold, but I'm just wired that way. This is why I was able to differentiate between my marriage and the affair- the line wasn't blurred in that respect. I could've easily thrown myself wholeheartedly into the affair and become completely lost within those confines, but this would futher alienate me from my wife and our marriage- this is NOT what I was looking for. I've heard some people say "You only fall in love, if you let yourself fall in love." I didn't.

Edited November 20, 2011 by despicableME

[Cabin]

You don't need to force-feed us all of these philosophical viewpoints and quote literary pundits to further your claim.

 

I read a book, thought it was a good book, and brought back two ideas from the book to a community of others who might too benefit from reading it.

 

If that's force-feeding...

[Cabin]

 

Cabin, does this book have good advice for becoming the type of partner who can sustain a long-term committed R?

 

Yes, it goes through what a WS must do when they make the choice to remain in their marriage and how to nurture and maintain that relationship.

 

This author also wrote "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay" and goes through the elements that make modern day, real world marriages worth being in.

 

I find her tone and style well written, refreshing, and frank.

[Cabin]

 

I hope, so much for you, your AP is not home reading this book and assessing your relationship based on the five categories.

 

.

 

He is, in fact. Perhaps not at this exact moment...

 

But he has read all the books I've read, and vice versa, on the matter.

[Cabin]

D

I could've easily thrown myself wholeheartedly into the affair and become completely lost within those confines, but this would futher alienate me from my wife and our marriage- this is NOT what I was looking for.

 

So how do you feel now that your wife is leaving anyway?

[jwi71]

I recently read Mira Kirshenbaum's "When Good People Have Affairs" and though it would be a good idea to share two thoughts from it:

 

1) She provides a framework for comparing your M to your A relationship:

 

There are, in fact, only four dimensions when it comes to comparing potential partners:

1. Who the people are in themselves.

2. What your relationship is with each one.

3. What your lifestyle would be with each.

4. Who you are with each.

 

2) She talks about how necessary it is for any romantic relationship to have these five elements of chemistry:

 

 

 

 

Fun: When it's just the two of you, no other couples, no kids, no toys (like a boat), and no props (like a party or a club), do you feel that there's always the real possibility that the two of you will find some way to have fun together, and does this, in fact, happen fairly often?

 

Safety: By and large, do you feel safe being with the other person? And do you feel that you're particularly safe from being hurt physically or emotionally? And do you feel that you're safe when it's most important to you, when you're being vulnerable or personal or intimate?

 

Mutual Respect: Even though you're aware of the other person's flaws, do you basically, overall, respect him/her as they are right now? Not necessarily that he/she's a fantastic genius, but that in most ways he/she's solid, capable, responsible, smart, and kind, and generally makes good decisions. And does he/she treat you as if he/she generally believes that right now, just as you are, you're solid, capable, responsible, smart, and kind, and generally make good decisions?

 

Physical Chemistry: Does the other person feel right to you physically? Their smell, their touch, the way they look. Not perfect, not necessarily great, but right for you. And do you clearly get the sense that you're right for your partner physically? And does the amount and nature of the physical affection between you feel right? And does the way you make love feel right?

 

Easy Connections: When it's just the two of you, and you're able to leave the stress of day-to-day life behind, and you're not mad at each other, does it feel easy, comfortable, relaxing to be together, and do you feel connected, not like polite strangers who happen to get along, but like lovers who are close? And is it like this more often than not?

 

You're supposed to ask these five questions about both your SO, as well as your AP. As I said, these are the five ingredients of relationship chemistry, and you need all five ingredients to make the relationship work. You don't have to have a lot of each ingredient, but you have to at least have some!

 

My H and I might have had a little of two of them, but zero of others. I have all five with my AP.

 

This is a great book for those deciding whether to leave their primary relationship to be with their AP.

 

First, my humble opinion on self-help books. They're crap - all of 'em. Peddled by PhD's who have payments to make. It's like a therapy monologue - utterly useless. Its written generally to appeal to the mass market and as such they completely lose ALL use - because generalities NEVER apply to specifics. People are WAY better off in counseling SESSIONS where there is give and take, back and forth and the therapist can provide accurate and tailored feedback - not Dr. Phil bullshyte soundbites in 200 pages or less.

 

Back on topic.

 

I understand what you are saying in regards to the quoted above.

 

How does having "all that" improve or retard one's chances at marital success (in regards to your MOM)?

 

Do you know how he views his M in this context yet?

 

Do you know how he sees YOU in that context?

 

Does cheating, in your view, have any impact on those five?

 

Those questions are all both specific to you cabin and also in a general sense.

[bentnotbroken]

I'm glad I found this thread. A lot of people seem to stand in judgement of those who find themselfs in extramarrital affairs. You don't plan for something like this to happen. Sometimes you just meet someone along life's pathway and wham - the chemistry hits you like a brick wall. Then you are faced with a challenge.

 

When you've been married for a long time and have raised children, it changes your relationship dramatically. It changes both husband and wife - sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse. You're not the same couple you were when you got married. That's why when you meet someone new that you find a connection with, it is a great temptation.

 

I myself have been married 22 years. I have not had an affair but have been tempted. I know that my husband was involved with a woman a few years ago (not sure to what extent). I would never stand in judgement of someone else as if I were perfect and faultless.

 

 

No one can stand in judgement. They don't have that power. But they can say wrong is wrong if that is their belief system. Affairs are wrong...according to my belief system and I don't have to be perfect to say it.

[White Flower]

I think we agree!

 

I am amazed how many talk themselves out of their marriage when they are in an affair.

 

At one time wasn't there love and passion and fun and commitment in the relationship with the spouse?

 

I mean, you married them fercryin'outloud! And if you married them for the wrong reasons it seems unfair that you didn't inform them, but now, now that something fun has come along, well it's over.

 

I'm sure Myra reads the stats and decided to craft a book for the large percentage who have an affair.

 

I hope she is laughing all the way to the bank.

Amazed at talking yourself out of your M while in an A? Seems perfectly reasonable if you ask me. One wouldn't be in an A if the M was meeting all of their needs. And IF the A has brought some clarity to the WS about who and what is right for them then it seems only logical to pursue some well considered strategies before making a major life change. Obviously, the author has offered a path either way, to save the M (if it's better for the reader), or to leave for the OP (if it's better for the reader).

 

 

I can't help but wonder if your fWH had turned fat and bald and ugly and had cheated with five women instead of one and stopped being the pleaser he is if you might have ever fallen out of love with him. And if so, would you have felt the same physical chemistry you had with him in previous years, and if not, considering you'd not have forgiven him, would you have a) realized that you M the wrong person, and b) told him so...25 or so years later? You can see it's not so simple.

 

Yet it does seem simple that a WS would turn to such a book before making a life-altering change for all parties concerned.

[Spark1111]

Amazed at talking yourself out of your M while in an A? Seems perfectly reasonable if you ask me. One wouldn't be in an A if the M was meeting all of their needs. And IF the A has brought some clarity to the WS about who and what is right for them then it seems only logical to pursue some well considered strategies before making a major life change. Obviously, the author has offered a path either way, to save the M (if it's better for the reader), or to leave for the OP (if it's better for the reader).

 

 

I can't help but wonder if your fWH had turned fat and bald and ugly and had cheated with five women instead of one and stopped being the pleaser he is if you might have ever fallen out of love with him. And if so, would you have felt the same physical chemistry you had with him in previous years, and if not, considering you'd not have forgiven him, would you have a) realized that you M the wrong person, and b) told him so...25 or so years later? You can see it's not so simple.

 

Yet it does seem simple that a WS would turn to such a book before making a life-altering change for all parties concerned.

 

I am all for making life altering decisions that enable a person to find happiness.

 

Where we differ is I would tell my spouse I am considering making life-altering decisions that may or may not include him in my future.

 

To me, that's pretty simple.

[Spark1111]

Sorry for the T/J but I gotta butt in here. The above.......a lot of people and we have some posters who have said such, say that there wasn't a fault with the marriage, it was something inside of the person, not the marriage or the BS. The above assumes it's always the BS or the marriage that is at fault.

 

Personally I believe in some cases it's the marriage, and in other cases it's something inside of them that causes someone to go outside the marriage.

 

I don't mean to speak for Spark but from reading her posts, she believes in her case it was something inside of her husband that was broken, not the marriage.

 

I am amazed at a) how many cannot define their unmet needs to their spouse, or b) assume they know the answer of response their BS would give them.

 

I am further amazed by how many a WS never verbalized how unhappy they were, demanded MC, and honestly told their spouse that if we cannot resolve a, b, and c, I will need to leave the relationship.

 

I am amazed at the conversations they do not have with their affair partners; how they allude to a future as they sit on fences trying to keep the spouse and AP; how they string both women along forever.

 

I see a pattern here. Don't you? A poor communicator who has trouble verbalizing their needs, or when they do, rarely act to execute them. If they cannot verbalize their needs, they tend to blame others for their unhappiness.

 

Cowardly and conflict-avoidant, IMHO.