whichwayisup Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 somovingon.... my problem with someone who is in an affair judging whether or not the affair is "bad" is that how can they give an unbiased opinion? while it may seem perfectfly fine to them , what do those who have to deal with the negative consequences of it? do yiou think they see it as "not bad"? Yet (some) who are in affairs, have no problem judging the BS in the affair triangle or others who believe affairs are just wrong and hurtful. Maybe instead of saying the person is bad, why not say they have some bad qualities that do damage to others. More politically correct? Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Most? Out of how many millions and millions of people on this earth, you truly believe that most marriages having nothing to do with love? I have to disagree with this. No wonder when I read the negativity, eh? Link to post Share on other sites
Author Cabin Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 This pop psychology crap is why people don't have morals anymore. It makes me sick. Sorry, can you point me to the time when they did? It must have been pre-printing press... Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 somovingon.... my problem with someone who is in an affair judging whether or not the affair is "bad" is that how can they give an unbiased opinion? while it may seem perfectfly fine to them , what do those who have to deal with the negative consequences of it? do yiou think they see it as "not bad"? Do you think someone who is a BS can give an unbiased opinion on A's? Being both a BS and being involved in an A, I think I have an excellent perspective of both sides of the equation. Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Most? Out of how many millions and millions of people on this earth, you truly believe that most marriages having nothing to do with love? I have to disagree with this. Well, lets see... In the US, 50% of M's end in divorce. Of the remaining 50% who stay married, half of them say they would get divorced, but don't for religious or other reasons. That leaves 25% of M's where people stay married and *want* to stay married. 75% is bigger than 25%, so, I would say most M's don't involve love. Additionally, in more than half of all M's, at least one spouse will be involved in an A at some point in the M. That doesn't speak well for undying love. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Well, lets see... In the US, 50% of M's end in divorce. Of the remaining 50% who stay married, half of them say they would get divorced, but don't for religious or other reasons. That leaves 25% of M's where people stay married and *want* to stay married. 75% is bigger than 25%, so, I would say most M's don't involve love. Additionally, in more than half of all M's, at least one spouse will be involved in an A at some point in the M. That doesn't speak well for undying love. My math tells me that since those 50% have already divorced, they are not married so cannot be counted in the equation, so no - not 75%. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Well, lets see... In the US, 50% of M's end in divorce. Of the remaining 50% who stay married, half of them say they would get divorced, but don't for religious or other reasons. That leaves 25% of M's where people stay married and *want* to stay married. 75% is bigger than 25%, so, I would say most M's don't involve love. Additionally, in more than half of all M's, at least one spouse will be involved in an A at some point in the M. That doesn't speak well for undying love. Ok you win, I'm wrong, you're right. Feel better? Not getting into a pissing match about this. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Additionally, in more than half of all M's, at least one spouse will be involved in an A at some point in the M. That doesn't speak well for undying love. Well, with your numbers and theories, then affairs turned into marriages probably have the same stats. Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 No wonder when I read the negativity, eh? I couldn't care less on stats, some people always need to back up with stats and numbers. I go by what I KNOW and who I know that are in my life, friend, neighbours, people I've worked with, extended family, etc..etc.. I can count on one hand how many are divorced. Though I know what's coming next - The comment that most are probably unhappy and staying for the kids sake or/and are cheating on the side. Yes, some people are stuck in a certain mind set.. It's pointless to discuss, like banging your head against a brick wall. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Well, with your numbers and theories, then affairs turned into marriages probably have the same stats. It seems, at least for some, there is no such thing as true love and a feeling of being able to rely on your partner. I feel sorry for them. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Sorry, can you point me to the time when they did? It must have been pre-printing press... I guess it depends on the kind of people one regularly associates with...? Link to post Share on other sites
Silly_Girl Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I couldn't care less on stats, some people always need to back up with stats and numbers. I go by what I KNOW and who I know that are in my life, friend, neighbours, people I've worked with, extended family, etc..etc.. I can count on one hand how many are divorced. Though I know what's coming next - The comment that most are probably unhappy and staying for the kids sake or/and are cheating on the side. Yes, some people are stuck in a certain mind set.. It's pointless to discuss, like banging your head against a brick wall. So ignore the stats, but the person you're conversing with may be going on what THEY 'know', like you; only their experience is the opposite end of the spectrum to you. You seem cheesed off but I'm lost as to why. Link to post Share on other sites
findingnemo Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 The discussion about loveless Ms has got me wondering. Why would you marry someone you don't love and expect to have a good M? How many people agree to get M knowing that their partner doesn't love them? Am I naive in believing that most Ms are based on love but that as time goes by that love can fade? If there are statistics proving that most Ms are loveless, then people are walking around lying to themselves just to walk down that aisle. How sad it that? Its pathetic and dishonest! A veritable recipe for disaster. If people are staying M when the love has faded, then of course there'll be plenty of As and MPs will walk around thinking they are good people because they sacrifice their own happiness in order for the family to remain intact. How do you argue with a MM who says he'll not abandon his W and kids and make them uncomfortable because he's fallen in love with someone else? Is he being bad in the true sense of the word? Maybe it's not a matter of being good or bad, but rather a matter of being practical. If looked at practically, which is the wrong decision here? Link to post Share on other sites
frozensprouts Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Do you think someone who is a BS can give an unbiased opinion on A's? Being both a BS and being involved in an A, I think I have an excellent perspective of both sides of the equation. you do not understand what i wrote... in an affair, who can give the informed perspective on whether those affected by it are being hurt or not? The two people involved in the affair will obviously have a biased opinion ( either that or they know it's hurting others and they simply do not care, as they value no one's well being besides their own) as they are benefiting from the situation. General terms are not applicable here... you may think cheating is fine and dandy as long as it suits your emotional needs at that time, however, those affected by your behaviors may not agree. The same is true for other people involved in affairs...just because bein a betrayed spouse had little to no effect on you, that does not mean others in that situation feel the same way. You can not extrapolate your feelings to everyone else. it's not "all about you" Link to post Share on other sites
frozensprouts Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 No wonder when I read the negativity, eh? somovingon seems to have a very skewed construct of "love" anyway... Link to post Share on other sites
2sunny Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 What someone doesn't know, doesn't hurt them. An A doesn't hurt the BS unless there is discovery. Engaging in an A presents the risk of hurting someone, in some (most?) cases, but doesn't as long as it remains secret. Not true! My exH spent time and energy on someone else - and it deprived us intimacy and family time. You can't tell me there was no harm until I found out. There was also harm for the budget when he spent 5000. In one month on his OW. How is that not harmful? Link to post Share on other sites
anne1707 Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 What someone doesn't know, doesn't hurt them. An A doesn't hurt the BS unless there is discovery. Engaging in an A presents the risk of hurting someone, in some (most?) cases, but doesn't as long as it remains secret. I also disagree. On dday, one of the things my H said was that knowing the truth explained why it had felt so hard at times to be in our marriage. The affair was a secret but he was definitely hurting as a result. Link to post Share on other sites
Mme. Chaucer Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Originally Posted by SoMovinOn What someone doesn't know, doesn't hurt them. An A doesn't hurt the BS unless there is discovery. Engaging in an A presents the risk of hurting someone, in some (most?) cases, but doesn't as long as it remains secret. I'm honestly perplexed and even amazed that you evidently believe this. I do not mean to goad you - but this makes me think that your concept of "relationship" is very one dimensional. One of the very most destructive things about an affair (or other dishonesty that becomes an inherent part of a relationship - like when my former husband returned to using drugs, "secretly," after a decade) is that the lied-to person KNOWS that there is something terribly amiss. Their intimacy with their partner is cut off. Or maybe that had already happened, pre-affair. Still, they "know" something, but they will not be allowed to "really" know. This is a terrible way to live, and it can make the betrayed person very sick. Plus, it is a very amoral stance, and IMO the majority of people who marry do so with trust and belief that their chosen spouse shares similar morals. How far do you take this kind of thinking, anyway? Is child porn - the kind that is taken on playgrounds without the kids' knowledge and spread over the Internet - OK because the children involved were not aware of being victimized or used in any way at all? If there is a peeping tom in my neighborhood who watches me undress every night, takes pictures and jerks off to them every evening, is this OK as long as I don't find out? If I am the trustee for a bunch of money and I "borrow" a sum of it for a while without the knowledge of the beneficiaries, is this just fine as long as I put it back with interest? Link to post Share on other sites
MissBee Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 perhaps it is not for the person committing the act to decide whether o not it is "bad", but it is more appropriate for the person being affected to make that determination. example: i own a business that pollutes the environment but I make a lot of money. Am I going to see the pollution as "bad" or as a necessary by product of my happiness? I'd probably see it as a necessary by product and not "bad". I'll rationalize it anyway I have to order to justify my actions and keep getting what I want. It is in my interest to do so. Now ask the person who's well was poisoned and who can no longer drink their water if what I did was"bad"... what do you think they are going to say? They more than likely will think that it's bad and won't care doing so contributes to my happiness. The same goes for the person who's air is contaminated, the tax payers who have to pay for their health care, the animals and plants that are killed, the people who live near my factory and who's view has been spoiled, the people living in the next country who get afacted by the acid precipitation caused ( in part) by the pollution from my factory, etc. These people come to me and ask me to make changes but i don't because it will reduce my profit and therefore my "happiness". Many would say that what I am doing is "bad" ...i don't think so because it benefits me. The fact that I donate some money to a local not for profit and maybe coach my son's soccer team does not negate the harm ( bad) I am doing. I wouldn't say that I am the one to say whether or not what I was dong is "bad". Terrific analogy! Link to post Share on other sites
findingnemo Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 I think that As cause damage whether undiscovered or not. But let's think about the possibility that if an A is never discovered, none of the victims would definitively be able to say that at any given time, they were suffering the consequences of the alienation, gas lighting, etc. Instead the BS and kids (if any) will be at a loss as to what was actually going on. If the A ends and the WS again becomes the loving and attentive spouse, the BS will remember that at a certain point the M was not doing very well and will think the WS was stressed about work, or something else. Is it ok for a WS to cause such angst? It isn't. But you can't feel betrayed unless you discover you have been betrayed. You'll feel all sorts of other things but betrayal is specific to having knowledge of the act. That being said...if one's A has not been discovered, that person is no less guilty than the one whose A was exposed, IMO. The A occurred. A breach of trust occurred and the family was put in jeopardy. Whether the family knows of the A or not, they will still suffer the consequences. Link to post Share on other sites
Silly_Girl Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 Many posters have acknowledged that an affair can help a marriage because the unhappy spouse is no longer unhappy and is not focused on or burdened by all the issues that depress them. That's short term and superficial but also a reality for some. The wife in my situation went from entirely miserable (conversations week to week as to whether they should stay together) to really pretty settled. He was around far less, but much happier in himself, less resentful of her and appreciated her more. They had known for a long time that too much time together was destructive for the marriage so things were pretty good for them - until he told her about me. Now, that's no improvement in my book, because that's not a relationship I would want or value, but certainly she was not hurt during the months of the affair because her world actually improved drastically. Of course, it made it all the more hurtful and confusing later down the line, understandably. Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 The discussion about loveless Ms has got me wondering. Why would you marry someone you don't love and expect to have a good M? How many people agree to get M knowing that their partner doesn't love them? Am I naive in believing that most Ms are based on love but that as time goes by that love can fade? If there are statistics proving that most Ms are loveless, then people are walking around lying to themselves just to walk down that aisle. How sad it that? Its pathetic and dishonest! A veritable recipe for disaster. - Arranged marriages are not based on love, and still exist. - Some people marry for money or some other convenience (and sometimes they convince themselves they are in love in order to do so) - Some people marry because they think they are in love, but they have no clue. - Some people think they are in love when they decide to get married, but by the time the wedding comes around, they are at least beginning to realize they are not. With tens of thousands of dollars invested, they go through with the wedding anyway. Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 You can not extrapolate your feelings to everyone else. it's not "all about you" I agree 100%. Yet... it seems many people here do exactly that. They are sure of how "Affairs" are, based on their own, limited experience. ... but then, what else does anyone have to base their thoughts and opinions on other then their own experiences? Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 Not true! My exH spent time and energy on someone else - and it deprived us intimacy and family time. You can't tell me there was no harm until I found out. There was also harm for the budget when he spent 5000. In one month on his OW. How is that not harmful? I don't know if any of those things were harmful. Would he have spent the time he spent with OW on intimacy and family time, or would he have avoided them some other way? Spending money... I don't know what your incomes or budget were. Some people spend tens of thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands on hobbies. Is that harmful? Yes... if they can't afford to do so. Was it $5,000 he could afford to spend? Or did he spend grocery money on his GF? Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 One of the very most destructive things about an affair (or other dishonesty that becomes an inherent part of a relationship - like when my former husband returned to using drugs, "secretly," after a decade) is that the lied-to person KNOWS that there is something terribly amiss. Their intimacy with their partner is cut off. Or maybe that had already happened, pre-affair. Still, they "know" something, but they will not be allowed to "really" know. If they know something is wrong, then they don't "Not know". How far do you take this kind of thinking, anyway? As far as this discussion. We are talking about A's here. Link to post Share on other sites
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