When good people have affairs

[donnamaybe]

No. I've known her and we've been M for almost half our lives. I know she is a good person. I know she has demons she's fighting. I understand what she is going through. I know what my contributions to everything happening the way it did were. It could have been different, done better, but it wasn't. That doesn't make her bad. It doesn't make me not love her. It doesn't erase all the good she always was, and still is.

 

Like I've said before, when judging someone as good or bad, you need to look at the entirety of what they are, not a single action, not some period of time - all they are.

A good person doesn't deserve a basic level of concern?

 

I'm sooooo confused.

[Elizabeth Southerns]

 

I'm sooooo confused.

 

Me too - I thought this had been cleared up several replies back?

 

A good person doesn't deserve a basic level of concern?

 

You seem to have confused me with some other poster. My STBXW continues to get well beyond a "basic level of concern" from me - in spite of her multiple A's, in spite of her willful destruction of our M, in spite of her abusive behavior, in spite of the way she uses me, in spite of her extreme alcoholism... and those are just her good qualities.

 

How many times does a question need to be answered before the person asking realises it's been answered?

 

Then again, AFAIK, this is still unanswered:

 

Other than your attempt at a misguided and off topic personal attack, did you have something to contribute concerning choosing to whom one feels compassion? Would you agree that most people make choices on this? That some people are more deserving of our compassion than others?

 

It seems that the customs and practices of asking and answering are not universal? :confused:

[donnamaybe]

Me too - I thought this had been cleared up several replies back?

No, not really.

 

 

 

 

 

How many times does a question need to be answered before the person asking realises it's been answered?

I don't know. How many?

 

Then again, AFAIK, this is still unanswered:

It is unanswered because none of what was being discussed was "off topic," except for the post I am currently responding to.

 

This thread is called "when good people have affairs." I think many of us are still trying to determine what is considered "good" in this context. SMO continues to gaslight his W, therefore not showing her, IMO, a basic level of concern. Others might define showing a basic level of concern as merely feeding someone and keeping clothes on their back. She is also supposedly a "good person" in spite of her "multiple A's and destruction of the M," yet the reasons information is withheld from her is because she "doesn't deserve" quite enough consideration for that BECAUSE OF HER MULTIPLE A'S AND DESTRUCTION OF THE M. While that may make perfect sense to a few (and I'm SO not surprised ), it makes virtually no sense to me, nor I suspect would it make sense to the average person.

 

 

 

It seems that the customs and practices of asking and answering are not universal? :confused:

In SOME people's world, NOTHING is "universal" as has been pointed out by certain posters in the past. Edited November 29, 2011 by donnamaybe

[Elizabeth Southerns]

SMO continues to gaslight his W

 

From Wikipedia:

 

Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory and perception. It may simply be the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, or it could be the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim.

 

I've not seen SMO stating that he presents his W with false information with the intent of making her doubt her own memory, nor have I seen him admitting that he denied to her that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, nor that he staged bizarre events with the intention of disorientating her, so I'm rather confused by the claim that he not only HAS done this, but moreover continues to do so. Could you please provide links to the posts where he's made these claims?

[donnamaybe]

Stating false information and withholding truthful pertinent information are one and the same in my world. Again, I live in a world I dare say most others inhabit.

[Owl]

To get back on topic...

 

 

I think that the title of this thread is in itself a misnomer.

 

People demonstrate their moral compasses in the decisions they make, and the actions they take.

 

People can sometimes engage in activities/choices that aren't indicative of their general moral compass. Either they make a choice/take an action that is COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY OUT OF CHARACTER for them as a one-time event...or...that action/choice is indicative of their moral compass.

 

So...they were either a "good person"...and the affair was totally and completely a mistake and fluke that was not a reflection of their true selves....

 

Or...it WAS an indicator of the "kind of person" that they are...a "bad person".

 

Can a "good person" make a decision/action that is completely out of character and not indicative of their moral compass? Sure...if it is a one time mistake, and not a true indicator of who they are.

 

Hopefully, they learn from that mistake moving forward.

 

If they don't learn from it...if they continue that type of decision making/action...then they probably aren't "good people".

 

My opinion on the subject...your mileage may vary.

[donnamaybe]

To get back on topic...

 

 

I think that the title of this thread is in itself a misnomer.

 

People demonstrate their moral compasses in the decisions they make, and the actions they take.

 

People can sometimes engage in activities/choices that aren't indicative of their general moral compass. Either they make a choice/take an action that is COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY OUT OF CHARACTER for them as a one-time event...or...that action/choice is indicative of their moral compass.

 

So...they were either a "good person"...and the affair was totally and completely a mistake and fluke that was not a reflection of their true selves....

 

Or...it WAS an indicator of the "kind of person" that they are...a "bad person".

 

Can a "good person" make a decision/action that is completely out of character and not indicative of their moral compass? Sure...if it is a one time mistake, and not a true indicator of who they are.

 

Hopefully, they learn from that mistake moving forward.

 

If they don't learn from it...if they continue that type of decision making/action...then they probably aren't "good people".

 

My opinion on the subject...your mileage may vary.

So are you saying, for example, that a one night stand type of cheating which is never repeated and for which the cheater feels remorse is indicative of someone acting out of character while someone who stays in a years long A, pretending everything at home is fine while sneaking around over and over and over is acting IN character since it is ongoing and continues?

[Owl]

So are you saying, for example, that a one night stand type of cheating which is never repeated and for which the cheater feels remorse is indicative of someone acting out of character while someone who stays in a years long A, pretending everything at home is fine while sneaking around over and over and over is acting IN character since it is ongoing and continues?

 

Pretty much so, yes.

 

A short duration EA/PA, ONS, etc... that doesn't become an ongoing part of that person's life might not be an indicator of their moral compass.

 

Something that DOES continue longer term, or is done in a repeating cycle...much, much more likely reflects that person's character/values/morals.

 

And I'd like to add...doing the "bad behavior" in a "successful" fashioni (for example, not getting caught) will often reinforce itself and allow them to make similar "bad decisions" in the future.

 

In other words...that starts to SHAPE their character/values/morals.

[SoMovinOn]

A good person doesn't deserve a basic level of concern?

 

I'm sooooo confused.

 

That is more than clear Donna.

 

How did you arrive at this latest erroneous assumption given everything I've said?

[Owl]

That is more than clear Donna.

 

How did you arrive at this latest erroneous assumption given everything I've said?

 

I'd hazard the guess that she sees that you've clearly spelled out that you feel your wife is a "good person", but believes that your actions towards your wife (specifically, the affair and non-disclosure of it) don't demonstrate what she feels is a "basic level of concern".

 

Don't mean to speak for Donna...but that's basically what I'd say the "point" that she's been trying to make.

[donnamaybe]

I'd hazard the guess that she sees that you've clearly spelled out that you feel your wife is a "good person", but believes that your actions towards your wife (specifically, the affair and non-disclosure of it) don't demonstrate what she feels is a "basic level of concern".

 

Don't mean to speak for Donna...but that's basically what I'd say the "point" that she's been trying to make.

That sums it up quite nicely. Thanks!

 

It just all seems so... contradictory.

[SoMovinOn]

This thread is called "when good people have affairs." I think many of us are still trying to determine what is considered "good" in this context.

 

I must have missed that meeting. Who is the group you are representing?

 

 

SMO continues to gaslight his W, therefore not showing her, IMO, a basic level of concern.

 

SMO has explained, in the past, that W abused my honesty and cannot be trusted with it. She is still aware of everything, but is not longer given any amount of detail. She is dating. I am dating. We both know that. There is no gaslighting.

 

 

She is also supposedly a "good person" in spite of her "multiple A's and destruction of the M," yet the reasons information is withheld from her is because she "doesn't deserve" quite enough consideration for that BECAUSE OF HER MULTIPLE A'S AND DESTRUCTION OF THE M.

 

Yes. It's true Donna. Humans and human relationships are complex. For a few, such complexity easily leads to confusion, so they just paint everything in either black or white, allowing them to easily place a label on others, and just as easily dismiss them.

 

This easy labeling and dismissing of others can indicate a lack of compassion, and ability to show not even the most basic level of concern for those whom they easily dismiss.

 

I am unwilling to do so. I am fine with you being willing to do so, it just shows that you and I are very different people.

 

While that may make perfect sense to a few (and I'm SO not surprised ), it makes virtually no sense to me, nor I suspect would it make sense to the average person.

 

So the group you are representing is the "average person"? Do you really feel the average person so easily labels others good and bad and just as easily dismisses them based on those labels?

 

That is not my experience. I find others often overlook people's mistakes and indiscretions and view the person overall in determining if they are "good" or "Bad" people.

[donnamaybe]

Ahhh, and now the not so veiled insults. Nice try, but I ain't buyin' it!

 

BTW, it sems part of "my group" made some posts just above. Want to try some bashing in that direction and see how you fare?

[SoMovinOn]

I'd hazard the guess that she sees that you've clearly spelled out that you feel your wife is a "good person", but believes that your actions towards your wife (specifically, the affair and non-disclosure of it) don't demonstrate what she feels is a "basic level of concern".

 

Don't mean to speak for Donna...but that's basically what I'd say the "point" that she's been trying to make.

 

A point made based on erroneous information of her own creation. My W is aware I am dating. I am aware my W is dating. We are split but living in the same house for now. I used to share details of my dating (not explicit, but basics like "I am going to meet GF for lunch today"), however, in some of her more alcohol fueled moments, she proved unable to handle this level of honesty, so I stopped it. I have not, however, done anything or said anything to make her think I am no longer dating.

 

Donna knows all this, or, if not, she could ask. However, as she seems to feel the need to make this thread specifically about me, rather than hijacking this thread, I would propose she could start another thread, just about me, and I'd be more than happy to answer any questions she has about my R's with my W, GF, coworkers or anyone else she's interested in.

[frozensprouts]

Cheating is, in my humble opinion, a form of abuse. Especially when it is hidden- mind you, if an affair is not hidden one could argue that it is an open marriage, but that is another issue.

 

I think that cheating and keeping it hidden is a form of abuse because it robs the betrayed spouse of the opportunity to make choice about their lives and with whom they wish to spend them. It also exposes them to an element of risk which they mos certainly did not sign o for when they got married. The risk could come from possible exposure to diseases, exposure to financial abuse ( having "family funds" used on the affair partner) , psychological abuse ( gaslighting) and even the possibility that they will be exposed to a current or ex- affair partner or member of their family who is unstable. There are a whole myriad of ways that it is hurtful to a betrayed spouse.

 

If given the choice, I don't think many spouses would sign on for that kind of thing...why would you? Many would rather choose to end their marriage than live like that. This is a big part of why cheating spouses hide their affairs...they want to get their "fix", and will rationalize hiding it any way they can ( i didn't want to hurt my spouse, children, family,whoever), as they do not want to deal with the potential fallout. Most people tend to take the path of least resistance, so they lie and if their spouse gets hurt, well, one can certainly pay lip service to that, but during the throes of the affair, I wonder if they damage they are doing even registers.

 

This is why i really don't think that a person ca be considered to be doing something "good" when they are in an affair, and that it may not be that much of a stretch to say that someone who is cheating is not being a "good person". They may have been one before the affair, and may be one after, but the fact that they can rationalize hurting their spouse as much as they are and are too lazy to do the hard work of telling their spouse they are not happy and want to seek comfort elsewhere says something about them at that particular point in time.

 

If having an affair is so "harmless" to a spouse, why not tell them about it? Why hide it? Why take away the knowledge they need to make an informed decision about their lives away from them? Probably because it's easier to lie.

[SoMovinOn]

This is why i really don't think that a person ca be considered to be doing something "good" when they are in an affair, and that it may not be that much of a stretch to say that someone who is cheating is not being a "good person".

 

I agree with your post Sprouts and think your points are all valid, save this one. I agree in most instances a person having an A is not doing something good, but I don't think that in an of itself is sufficient measure of the person overall.

 

They may have been one before the affair, and may be one after, but the fact that they can rationalize hurting their spouse as much as they are and are too lazy to do the hard work of telling their spouse they are not happy and want to seek comfort elsewhere says something about them at that particular point in time.

 

I think in some cases, the WS has made every attempt to communicate clearly with the BS. In some cases, they have even made attempts to split with the BS. At some point, having failed at those attempts, they simply move on to living their own life.

[donnamaybe]

My apologies, SMO, for thinking your W wasn't aware of your cheating (if one can call it that - more an open M IMO). Have you told her, as you stated was going to happen sooner than later - not months, but weeks and possibly days - in a post back in July, that she needed to move out and you were getting a D?

 

I guess I mistakenly thought you were of the "cheat but never let the spouse know" type because you so vehemently declare that others doing so are still "good people."

[Owl]

Thought I'd add in...I don't believe that humans nor their relationships are all that complex, either.

 

On the contrary...human interactions are really pretty basic. Pretty easy to understand when you stop and examine the underlying motivations.

 

We're simple critters.

 

We do things to either get something we want, or avoid something that we don't like.

 

We add in complexity in an effort to rationalize/obfuscate/avoid looking at our own motivations too closely.

 

Same thing for "grey thinking".

 

It's only grey if that shade is what works best for you...specifically as it relates to your own situation/motivations. It lets you feel better about yourself when you conduct actions that are "less than white".

[Silly_Girl]

This is why i really don't think that a person ca be considered to be doing something "good" when they are in an affair, and that it may not be that much of a stretch to say that someone who is cheating is not being a "good person". They may have been one before the affair, and may be one after, but the fact that they can rationalize hurting their spouse as much as they are and are too lazy to do the hard work of telling their spouse they are not happy and want to seek comfort elsewhere says something about them at that particular point in time.

 

I do not agree that 'being in an affair' = 'not a good person'. Some people strive and try and do their damndest and for whatever reason this becomes something they don't see coming. Like the boiling frog.

 

Likewise, those people who have suffered bad traumas, losses and are lurching their way through life... no pre-meditated thoughts of cheating at all, they find themselves seeking shelter/distraction elsewhere and before they know it they're up to their neck in it and like a gambler, they're in so deep that any moves they make to fix things will blow their world apart.

 

What other behaviours instantly means someone can't be called a good person? If they steal? If they lie? If they are lovely and kind but can't be bothered to do a day's work whilst the rest of us work our nuts off to support the state benefits? If they drive badly and injure someone? If they get drunk and obnoxious and hurt people's feelings? If they mess up badly at work and stitch up a colleague?

 

I am curious as to what other behaviours immediately eliminate someone from the 'good person' list.

[donnamaybe]

Owl and LG, you nailed it.

 

There really is nothing all that complex about relationships. You either use good behavior in your dealings and discussions with your partner which will allow the R to flourish, or you use lousy behavior in your dealings and discussions with your partner which will cause the R to wither and die. Also, conflict resolution can be approached with love and an expectation that your partner wants to resolve the problem to the satisfaction of all concerned, or you can try the PA approach, using the tit for tat method which we ALL know doesn't work and which I have read about being used by people posting in this forum.

[confusedinkansas]

Owl and LG, you nailed it.

 

There really is nothing all that complex about relationships. You either use good behavior in your dealings and discussions with your partner which will allow the R to flourish, or you use lousy behavior in your dealings and discussions with your partner which will cause the R to wither and die. Also, conflict resolution can be approached with love and an expectation that your partner wants to resolve the problem to the satisfaction of all concerned, or you can try the PA approach, using the tit for tat method which we ALL know doesn't work and which I have read about being used by people posting in this forum.

Ok Donna.

I guess there are NO disfunctional relationships in this world either. Right?

SHeesh -

Unless you live in a PERFECT world we all deal with CRAP on a daily basis in our relationships. Married, Work, Children.......yadda yadda yadda.

 

Seriously people - Take off your rose colored glasses. REAL LIFE is not like it is in the soap operas or love stories we see on TV or at the movies.

 

MANY live in marriages that they can't manage to get out of for whatever reason. MANY live in marriages where their spouses WON'T see any trouble. MANY live with spouses that wear rose colored glasses.

If it takes an affair to escape - then it takes an affair to escape. (OR Tit for Tat as Donna has said - Haha - Like that's never been done before )

Guess you just gotta hope you come out on the other side in one piece though. Right?

[confusedinkansas]

And...to comment on the tag line.

YES good people have affairs every day! It's happened since before 'jesus was born' & will continue to happen.

 

I'd make what I think is a pretty fair guess - MOST on this website that have cheated are GOOD PEOPLE. They do good in their community, they are productive members of society, they........well you get my point.

 

We (the good people) just have made some bad choices along the way.

 

A BAD CHOICE does not BAD PERSON make.

[Owl]

Guess you just gotta hope you come out on the other side in one piece though. Right?

 

Yep...and who gives a damn if the person you were married to comes through in one piece too. Not your problem, right?

 

You're right...there is a ton of dysfunction in the world...even on this thread!

[donnamaybe]

Actually Donna never claimed there are no dysfunctional relationships, she was specifically talking about how one behaves, makes choices in a relationship.

 

You completely missed the boat on this one ck as what is being debated is clearly not dysfunctional relationships but dysfunctional choices. Choices come before dysfunction and hello if you spend any time at LS we all know dysfuction abounds. No rose colored glasses here.

Thanks, once again!

 

Yes, it's how WE CHOOSE TO DEAL with things. Not that there aren't going to be things to deal with.

 

And, yes. One way of dealing in a PA way is to have an A. But, as I said before, PA is never a good way to deal with things.

[Owl]

 

A BAD CHOICE does not BAD PERSON make.

 

If making bad choices doesn't define a "bad person"...what does???

 

Choices/actions reflect the character/morals of the person making them.

 

If you can't determine it based off of the person's actions/choices...what DO you use to determine their values/moral compass?