When good people have affairs

[Silly_Girl]

Perhaps for you. For me, I can identify situations which are either black and white or shades of grey whether or not they involve me.

 

Agree wholeheartedly. Have always been like that and find it perplexing when people claim to 'not have that gene'. In this culture, with human interactions being so complex... I just can't see how it could work for a person.

[SoMovinOn]

Was something being hidden detrimental to the spouse? Perhaps the fact that someone was potentially bringing an STD to someone else?

 

So, are there shades of grey if one can justify the reasons? But, if their spouse isn't cheating, then the justifications are unfounded. Nothing detrimental. No potential STD's, just a destruction of trust and privacy. Wouldn't it be better to just communicate with your spouse?

 

Yet, advice given to potential BS's tells them to be dishonest, specifically to *not* ask their spouse about it, but rather to snoop, spy and do whatever else they need to find evidence before confronting their spouse. But, if they find nothing, if there is nothing to find, then isn't all that dishonesty detrimental to the M?

Edited December 4, 2011 by SoMovinOn

[Severely Unamused]

Can someone who invades their spouses privacy be considered a good person?

 

Good question. I agree with what FN typed up. We shouldn't be labeling the person, but the behaviour itself.

 

If somebody has the expectation that you won't invade their privacy, it is (generally speaking) ethically wrong to do so, relative to that person's feelings.

 

All I know is that when I was snooping on my husband, I was essentially looking out for numero uno (that doesn't mean that I felt completely guiltless however). Taking into consideration the sort of advice that is fairly prevalent on the infidelity board, I believe that many BSs have/had a similar attitude upon discovering their partner's infidelity.

 

If we're going to use the colour metaphors here, I believe that I was "in the black", and that my husband was also in the black area.

[despicableME]

We shouldn't be labeling the person, but the behaviour itself.

 

That's why the title is a misnomer- Who really is a good person? The book sells itself by giving the impression that "good" people engage in such behavior also. The majority of us consider ourselves to be good, as opposed to bad(a negative connotation), so those of us in an affair could better relate to the subject matter. I mean... the book wouldn't sell if it was titled- Affairs-The Bad People Who Engage in Them.

[donnamaybe]

So, are there shades of grey if one can justify the reasons? But, if their spouse isn't cheating, then the justifications are unfounded. Nothing detrimental. No potential STD's, just a destruction of trust and privacy. Wouldn't it be better to just communicate with your spouse?

 

Yet, advice given to potential BS's tells them to be dishonest, specifically to *not* ask their spouse about it, but rather to snoop, spy and do whatever else they need to find evidence before confronting their spouse. But, if they find nothing, if there is nothing to find, then isn't all that dishonesty detrimental to the M?

Uh, the WS is ALREADY being a sneaky liar, and your advice is to ask them if they are being a sneaky liar? Yeah, I think the cops use that method as it is so highly effective. That is why they made up the term "gaslighting." Because it never happens.

 

Nice try at turning this around on the person being lied to. But that is what a lot of WS do when they are cheating. Just come out and ask them and the liar will suddenly become a paragon of virtue and honesty. Uh huh.

[Spark1111]

That's why the title is a misnomer- Who really is a good person? The book sells itself by giving the impression that "good" people engage in such behavior also. The majority of us consider ourselves to be good, as opposed to bad(a negative connotation), so those of us in an affair could better relate to the subject matter. I mean... the book wouldn't sell if it was titled- Affairs-The Bad People Who Engage in Them.

 

Hahahaha! I think someone should write this book and compare sales. I'm sure there would be a market for this one too!

[Spark1111]

A thread in another section of the forum made me think of an appropriate question for this thread...

 

Can someone who invades their spouses privacy be considered a good person?

 

Hmmm...define privacy as it should be applied in a marital relationship?

[donnamaybe]

Hmmm...define privacy as it should be applied in a marital relationship?

 

I don't think anyone would define it as the right to screw around behind your spouse's back unheeded.

 

I know couples who share their e mail passwords. My sweety and I know each other's, and you know what? Neither of us has anything we need to hide from each other. A correlation perhaps?

[Spark1111]

I don't think anyone would define it as the right to screw around behind your spouse's back unheeded.

 

I know couples who share their e mail passwords. My sweety and I know each other's, and you know what? Neither of us has anything we need to hide from each other. A correlation perhaps?

 

Definitely a correlation.

 

What are the expectations of privacy in a marriage?

 

Define privacy? Define secrets? How does it differ?

 

And I think of the old adage: People with nothing to hide, hide nothing.

 

Imagine that?

 

As for the other thread; I would speculate only good people feel guilty for deceiving their SO by snooping.

[PhoenixRise]

Uh, the WS is ALREADY being a sneaky liar, and your advice is to ask them if they are being a sneaky liar? Yeah, I think the cops use that method as it is so highly effective. That is why they made up the term "gaslighting." Because it never happens.

Nice try at turning this around on the person being lied to. But that is what a lot of WS do when they are cheating. Just come out and ask them and the liar will suddenly become a paragon of virtue and honesty. Uh huh.

 

 

Yes.

 

Unless it is an exit affair the WS who is already lying in order to conduct the affair that they fully intend the BS to never find out about, WILL NOT just confess when they are confronted with an unsubstantiated suspicion.

 

Instead they will display a huge amount of hurt, anger and outrage that 1. their privacy was invaded and 2. that the BS could even think

it is possible that their loving spouse could ever cheat on them.

[whichwayisup]

Originally Posted by SoMovinOn

A thread in another section of the forum made me think of an appropriate question for this thread...

 

Can someone who invades their spouses privacy be considered a good person?

You comparing a BS snooping to find out why their spouse is acting weird, secretive to find out what is truly going on to THE cheating spouse choosing to have an affair? Are you 'implying' that a BS who snoops is a bad person? And the person having the affair is a good person who just made a selfish self serving mistake? Come on. Or if the A ends, so the BS thinks, and the CS is still lying and cheating, that the CS is still a good person, but the BS feels the need to check up on her CS, is a bad person? If you are indeed implying this, then that's just nuts. Sorry, but it's totally apples and oranges.

[SoMovinOn]

If we're going to use the colour metaphors here, I believe that I was "in the black", and that my husband was also in the black area.

 

Unfortunately, the main problem with snooping, spying, being deceitful and lying to your spouse in the course of doing so, invading their privacy, is you can't know if they are "in the black" until after the fact. It certainly seems easy to justify whatever you have done at that point.

 

What happens if you find nothing, if there is nothing to find though? Do you then come clean to your spouse? Admit to them you suspected they were doing something wrong and you invaded their privacy in order to check up on them (and found nothing)?

[SoMovinOn]

Uh, the WS is ALREADY being a sneaky liar...

 

How do you know that?

 

Many of the signs someone might be having an A have other reasons, some of them legitimate. Maybe your spouse is suddenly working late because someone else left the company and they have an increased work load.

 

 

... and your advice is to ask them if they are being a sneaky liar?

 

Actually, I believe it's your advice (and others) that the only fair thing to do is to be 100% honest with your spouse and let them know who they are dealing with and allow them to make their own decisions on how to deal with that.

 

Are you saying that applies except when spouse is a sneaking, lying, deceitful, mistrustful, spy?

 

That is why they made up the term "gaslighting." Because it never happens.

 

You're saying potential BS's have tried an honest approach and it hasn't worked? Why would they have done that when all the advice tells them to do otherwise?

 

 

Nice try at turning this around on the person being lied to.

 

They don't know they are being lied to. In order to find out, it is suggested they potentially harm their M by engaging in unfavorable traits. If their spouse is doing nothing wrong, then what?

 

Just come out and ask them and the liar will suddenly become a paragon of virtue and honesty. Uh huh.

 

So once the BS becomes a liar in order to spy on their spouse, if they do turn up an A, at least they are now on equal ground with their WS, right?

 

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but your position is it's OK to do bad things, as long as your goal is "Noble". Is that correct?

[SoMovinOn]

Hmmm...define privacy as it should be applied in a marital relationship?

 

I think that's something each couple decides. For some, they share their logins and passwords, everything about them is an open book to the other. For others, there is a high level of expected privacy. For others, it's something in the middle.

[SoMovinOn]

I know couples who share their e mail passwords. My sweety and I know each other's, and you know what? Neither of us has anything we need to hide from each other. A correlation perhaps?

 

One of the best ways one can hide something is to appear transparent, as though they hide nothing. Providing logins and passwords is meaningless if they don't provide the one to their secret email account.

[donnamaybe]

How do you know that?

 

Many of the signs someone might be having an A have other reasons, some of them legitimate. Maybe your spouse is suddenly working late because someone else left the company and they have an increased work load.

 

 

 

 

Actually, I believe it's your advice (and others) that the only fair thing to do is to be 100% honest with your spouse and let them know who they are dealing with and allow them to make their own decisions on how to deal with that.

 

Are you saying that applies except when spouse is a sneaking, lying, deceitful, mistrustful, spy?

 

 

 

You're saying potential BS's have tried an honest approach and it hasn't worked? Why would they have done that when all the advice tells them to do otherwise?

 

 

 

 

They don't know they are being lied to. In order to find out, it is suggested they potentially harm their M by engaging in unfavorable traits. If their spouse is doing nothing wrong, then what?

 

 

 

So once the BS becomes a liar in order to spy on their spouse, if they do turn up an A, at least they are now on equal ground with their WS, right?

 

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but your position is it's OK to do bad things, as long as your goal is "Noble". Is that correct?

 

And if the BS has asked and still thinks something is wrong, even after protesting of innocence by the WS and snoops by the BS finds an A, THEN who is the anus?

 

Geezuz. Chicken or egg?

[SoMovinOn]

You comparing a BS snooping to find out why their spouse is acting weird, secretive to find out what is truly going on to THE cheating spouse choosing to have an affair?

 

Nope. I am asking about an spouse who *suspects* their spouse is having an A. I am asking about what happens if they are wrong. I am asking about people justifying bad behaviors and their impact on the M. I am curious what happens if the potential BS finds nothing - how would they then justify their harmful actions?

 

When you ask about comparisons, there is the assumption the spouse *is* cheating. I am suggesting one needs to make that assumption in order to justify their own harmful and wrong actions, and what happens if their assumption is false.

 

There is a lot of talk here about how people involved in A's find reasons to "justify" their actions and decisions in order to be ok with them. I am pointing out that we always justify our actions and decisions to ourselves, be they good or bad. I am pointing out that some people feel it's ok to do the wrong things, as long as they believe they have the right reasons for doing so. I am curious about how they handle the damage they have done if they are wrong.

 

 

Are you 'implying' that a BS who snoops is a bad person?

 

On the contrary. I have repeatedly stated that a single action, or series of actions, does not define a person. Others have disagreed, saying a bad action does indeed indicate a bad person. If that is the case, I would think they'd need to feel a BS doing the wrong things is also a bad person. Two wrongs don't make a right, right?

 

It's not something unique I have come up with. This debate has raged forever over things like the use of torture and other techniques people use to extract information from others. There are some who feel doing something wrong is OK so long as it is done for the right reasons. Others feel it is never right to do something wrong.

 

I am applying the same concept to marriage.

 

 

And the person having the affair is a good person who just made a selfish self serving mistake?

 

Prior to the snooping, lying and deceit, the potential BS doesn't know their spouse is having an A. They have to make the choice to do "bad" things, things which will potentially damage their M, prior to having that knowledge.

 

And, as I have already asked, if they do these wrong things and find they were incorrect, do they then do the right thing and honestly admit why they have done to their now betrayed spouse?

 

If you are indeed implying this, then that's just nuts. Sorry, but it's totally apples and oranges.

 

I am not implying anything. No need to read between the lines. I ask and say exactly what I mean to ask and say.

[SoMovinOn]

Some of the logic used in this thread to argue a point blows my mind.

 

I have a feeling I'm not the only one.

 

You're not. But then, I am never truly surprised when people claim to adamantly hold a position, but are easily shown to apply a completely different set of rules when they feel the need.

[SoMovinOn]

And if the BS has asked and still thinks something is wrong, even after protesting of innocence by the WS and snoops by the BS finds an A, THEN who is the anus?

 

Geezuz. Chicken or egg?

 

... and if ...

 

You need to go back to the beginning, when the potential BS first chooses to do potentially harmful things. One point you specifically have made repeatedly is how people find whatever justifications they need in order to be OK with doing something wrong (engaging in an A), and made it clear you believe using justifications for doing the wrong thing is a bad thing.

 

Yet when applied to potentially harmful actions by a potential BS, you seem able to provide all manner of justifications for them to do so. Is that a bad thing? Is it OK to do a bad thing for the right reasons?

 

And, if they find out they are wrong, that their spouse isn't doing anything wrong, what then?

[whichwayisup]

See my responses in bold.

 

Nope. I am asking about an spouse who *suspects* their spouse is having an A. I am asking about what happens if they are wrong. I am asking about people justifying bad behaviors and their impact on the M. I am curious what happens if the potential BS finds nothing - how would they then justify their harmful actions?

 

You didn't say that last part, if they are wrong. You left that part out of your original question and if you had put that in, my answer would have been different. I'm just sayin' leaving out a crucial part makes a world of difference!

 

And sorry, I don't think a divorce or complete betrayal fits the crime of a spouse sneaking a look, snooping. Those who have nothing to hide ... You know that expression.

"Harmful" actions? LMAO!

 

When you ask about comparisons, there is the assumption the spouse *is* cheating. I am suggesting one needs to make that assumption in order to justify their own harmful and wrong actions, and what happens if their assumption is false.

 

There is a lot of talk here about how people involved in A's find reasons to "justify" their actions and decisions in order to be ok with them. I am pointing out that we always justify our actions and decisions to ourselves, be they good or bad. I am pointing out that some people feel it's ok to do the wrong things, as long as they believe they have the right reasons for doing so. I am curious about how they handle the damage they have done if they are wrong.

 

You comparing snooping as a BAD thing, BAD Person vs a CS. Come on..

 

 

 

 

On the contrary. I have repeatedly stated that a single action, or series of actions, does not define a person. Others have disagreed, saying a bad action does indeed indicate a bad person. If that is the case, I would think they'd need to feel a BS doing the wrong things is also a bad person. Two wrongs don't make a right, right?

 

It's not something unique I have come up with. This debate has raged forever over things like the use of torture and other techniques people use to extract information from others. There are some who feel doing something wrong is OK so long as it is done for the right reasons. Others feel it is never right to do something wrong.

 

I am applying the same concept to marriage.

 

 

 

 

Prior to the snooping, lying and deceit, the potential BS doesn't know their spouse is having an A. They have to make the choice to do "bad" things, things which will potentially damage their M, prior to having that knowledge.

 

And, as I have already asked, if they do these wrong things and find they were incorrect, do they then do the right thing and honestly admit why they have done to their now betrayed spouse?

 

 

 

I am not implying anything. No need to read between the lines. I ask and say exactly what I mean to ask and say.

 

But you didn't word your question properly. You left out *suspect* and if the snooper was wrong, found no evidence of an A, how the snooper would react back to the spouse. Wording is everything here. I think you know this.

[whichwayisup]

And, if they find out they are wrong, that their spouse isn't doing anything wrong, what then?

 

They apologize and communicate with their spouse, why they felt the need to check up on them and TOGETHER they work it out. Not through 'fights' or petty immature remarks... A mature couple will sit and talk it out, find out why one spouse feels insecure or something and come up with a solution.

 

You truly are putting a certain spin on this. I know I'm not the only one who sees this either. BAD PERSON = snooping. Good person who makes bad choice = Cheater. Right? This is what you believe?

[SoMovinOn]

But you didn't word your question properly. You left out *suspect* and if the snooper was wrong, found no evidence of an A, how the snooper would react back to the spouse. Wording is everything here. I think you know this.

 

Why would that be needed? How would there be an assumption the snooper would know the answer prior to snooping?

 

"Harmful" actions? LMAO!

 

You don't see lying, being deceitful, a betrayal of trust, the invasion of privacy, as being harmful to a M?

 

Why do you find it humorous?

[donnamaybe]

One of the best ways one can hide something is to appear transparent, as though they hide nothing. Providing logins and passwords is meaningless if they don't provide the one to their secret email account.

 

Even a sociopathic cheater will tip their hand and make the spider suspicious.

[SoMovinOn]

You truly are putting a certain spin on this. I know I'm not the only one who sees this either. BAD PERSON = snooping. Good person who makes bad choice = Cheater. Right? This is what you believe?

 

No. Is that really how you comprehend what I have written? When I asked if two wrongs make a right, your take on that was I was saying a cheater is a good person who makes a bad choice? Seriously?

[donnamaybe]

Spider=spouse. Lol. Damn smart phone.