When good people have affairs

[SoMovinOn]

Even a sociopathic cheater will tip their hand and make the spider suspicious.

 

True. Yet you fail to answer the real question - is it OK for a potential BS to engage in the wrong behavior?

 

... and you've also not yet answered the second part of that question - what if they are wrong (and therefore, their justification for engaging in bad behavior is not valid)?

[whichwayisup]

Why would that be needed? How would there be an assumption the snooper would know the answer prior to snooping?

 

 

 

You don't see lying, being deceitful, a betrayal of trust, the invasion of privacy, as being harmful to a M?

 

Why do you find it humorous?

 

Okay... You and your wife are married.. You work long hours. Moody. Not talkative, distant. Your wife asks you if you're okay.. You say fine. She doesn't believe you.. She feels insecure, her gut is telling her something feels off. (but, she has her own issues, past hurts that may make her doubt you.. Issues that yes, she needs to deal with,) So, she takes matters into her own hands and looks at your email account and looks in your phone. You have a choice. FREAK OUT, feel upset, betrayed that your wife doesn't trust you and try to understand why she felt need to snoop... OR get pissed off and react, pack a bag and get the F out of your house in a huff.

 

It still REALLY feels like you're comparing a 'bad' spouse to one who chooses to have an affair to a 'bad' spouse who snoops and finds nothing.

 

Anyway, I think keeping things in perspective, snooping is lower on the list, especially when the other spouse has absolutely nothing to hide.

[Spark1111]

... and if ...

 

You need to go back to the beginning, when the potential BS first chooses to do potentially harmful things. One point you specifically have made repeatedly is how people find whatever justifications they need in order to be OK with doing something wrong (engaging in an A), and made it clear you believe using justifications for doing the wrong thing is a bad thing.

 

Yet when applied to potentially harmful actions by a potential BS, you seem able to provide all manner of justifications for them to do so. Is that a bad thing? Is it OK to do a bad thing for the right reasons?

 

And, if they find out they are wrong, that their spouse isn't doing anything wrong, what then?

 

To me, this is not a big deal.

 

I admit I snooped and I admit I was feeling insecure. I apologize.

 

If my spouse truly has my best interests at heart, they will forgive me and they will go out of there way to reassure me --WHATEVER IT TAKES-- to make me feel assured.

 

That is the relationship we had, and have once again.

 

But that is not what happened during his affair; I was gaslighted, deflected, minimized, and thought I was maybe going crazy.

 

Big difference between how the innocent and the guilty respond to the same sitch, don'tcha think?

 

If you believe you deserve autonomy and privacy within a marriage, maybe you shouldn't be married.

 

Or, if you do, then putting the feelings of your spouse first is one of the ten commandments for a successful long-term relationship, IMO.

 

If my spouse feels so insecure to snoop, I have two choices; grow outraged that my privacy was invaded, or, hand over my passwords and help reassure them.

 

What is the big deal?

[SoMovinOn]

It still REALLY feels like you're comparing a 'bad' spouse to one who chooses to have an affair to a 'bad' spouse who snoops and finds nothing.

 

Anyway, I think keeping things in perspective, snooping is lower on the list, especially when the other spouse has absolutely nothing to hide.

 

So is, black black and white white unless we choose to see some grey because we feel justified in our actions? Is doing something harmful to our M OK as long as it's not as bad as an A?

[SoMovinOn]

If my spouse truly has my best interests at heart, they will forgive me and they will go out of there way to reassure me --WHATEVER IT TAKES-- to make me feel assured.

 

If you believe your spouse has your best interest at heart, wouldn't you believe they'd not have an A? That they'd be honest with you if you asked them?

 

If snooping is fine for how it makes you feel, what about how it makes them feel to know you didn't trust them? That you'd go behind their back, lie to them, deceive them, and invade their privacy to satisfy your own insecurities? How does it make them feel to know you can't be honest with them and tell them about your insecurities and fears?

 

But that is not what happened during his affair; I was gaslighted, deflected, minimized, and thought I was maybe going crazy.

 

Big difference between how the innocent and the guilty respond to the same sitch, don'tcha think?

 

Yes. Big difference. Of course, you need to know they are guilty first. It is unfortunate when one needs to presume guilt and act dishonestly in doing so. Even if they find they were right, they need to make a choice to do wrong in order to get there.

 

 

If you believe you deserve autonomy and privacy within a marriage, maybe you shouldn't be married.

 

I believe each spouse should have whatever level of autonomy and privacy they desire, and there should be sufficient trust in the M that neither feels threatened by that. I believe if that level of trust doesn't exist, the M is on shaky ground.

 

Or, if you do, then putting the feelings of your spouse first is one of the ten commandments for a successful long-term relationship, IMO.

 

I agree. Thus, when you feel suspicious due to your own insecurities, in putting your spouse first, you'd be honest with them and discuss it honestly, rather than sneaking around behind their back and spying on them.

 

 

If my spouse feels so insecure to snoop, I have two choices; grow outraged that my privacy was invaded, or, hand over my passwords and help reassure them.

 

What is the big deal?

 

None. Just another shades of grey scenario. Right?

[whichwayisup]

So is, black black and white white unless we choose to see some grey because we feel justified in our actions? Is doing something harmful to our M OK as long as it's not as bad as an A?

 

MANY marriages recover from harmful things, harsh words, arguments, bad money investments, whatever... You still are trying to compare the damage done from an affair to something like snooping that MANY people work through and get over quite easily in the realm of things. You aren't seeing my point at all, infact just saying white is white, black is black just isn't a conversation, it's pointless to even have a talk with you if that's all you're gonna say and not even try to see things from my pov so it might make abit more sense. I tried to see things your way and it's just not good enough for your liking and given an example too.

 

Why not start a new thread about bad choices that affect a marriage and the damage it causes.

[donnamaybe]

To me, this is not a big deal.

 

I admit I snooped and I admit I was feeling insecure. I apologize.

 

If my spouse truly has my best interests at heart, they will forgive me and they will go out of there way to reassure me --WHATEVER IT TAKES-- to make me feel assured.

 

That is the relationship we had, and have once again.

 

But that is not what happened during his affair; I was gaslighted, deflected, minimized, and thought I was maybe going crazy.

 

Big difference between how the innocent and the guilty respond to the same sitch, don'tcha think?

 

If you believe you deserve autonomy and privacy within a marriage, maybe you shouldn't be married.

 

Or, if you do, then putting the feelings of your spouse first is one of the ten commandments for a successful long-term relationship, IMO.

 

If my spouse feels so insecure to snoop, I have two choices; grow outraged that my privacy was invaded, or, hand over my passwords and help reassure them.

 

What is the big deal?

 

My man was betrayed in a huge way by his ex. If he snooped into my life I would be understanding and reassure him with love and transparency. Easy when you have nothing to hide. If someone HAS something to hide, however, I can see why they would get defensive.

[NotMolly]

A thread in another section of the forum made me think of an appropriate question for this thread...

 

Can someone who invades their spouses privacy be considered a good person?

I am not the one doing anything wrong.

[donnamaybe]

True. Yet you fail to answer the real question - is it OK for a potential BS to engage in the wrong behavior?

 

... and you've also not yet answered the second part of that question - what if they are wrong (and therefore, their justification for engaging in bad behavior is not valid)?

 

Seeking to protect oneself is not wrong. Seeking to harm another is. It is like the difference between the Santa clause lie and the lying to be allowed to sneak around and f others. Interesting how everyone else but you gets this.

[frozensprouts]

i would hope that a spouse would talk about their feelings and why they feel the way they do. If this doesn't work to alleviate concerns, and the suspicions are still there, then perhaps it is time to do a little digging and find out what is going on... and ( and this may sound crazy) tell your spouse what you did and what you found, even if it was nothing. if one has feelings of suspicion, there is a reason why and t can't be addressed if you don't talk about it.

 

if you feel you can't trust your spouse, then that would seem to be a sign of a bigger problem, be it cheating or something else.

[PhoenixRise]

The context of the thread that raised the issue of snooping is infidelity. It is on the infidelity board where people go to discuss cheating partners and to get advise/ support about dealing with the fallout of infidelity. It is not a general subject. It is not about snooping in general. It is about snooping in the context of a cheating partner.

 

This thread on this board is also not about a general subject. It concerns a book advising "good" people who find themselves in an affair and it is located on a board tilted for OW/OM to discuss their affairs.

 

Raising the issue of snooping in a non cheating context is completely contrary to the subject matter of both forums and to both threads specifically. It is a strawman.

[SoMovinOn]

MANY marriages recover from harmful things, harsh words, arguments, bad money investments, whatever... You still are trying to compare the damage done from an affair...

 

I am not comparing anything. I am asking about something which has nothing to do with an A. There is no damage cause by an A, because at the point when the decision is made, it cannot be know there is an A.

[SoMovinOn]

Seeking to protect oneself is not wrong. Seeking to harm another is. It is like the difference between the Santa clause lie and the lying to be allowed to sneak around and f others. Interesting how everyone else but you gets this.

 

I totally get it Donna. Harming your marriage by lying, being deceitful, and destroying trust are bad if they involve an A, but they are all OK in situations in which *you* (and others) feel they are justified.

 

That was pretty clear from the beginning.

 

There are some who question if things like lying about Santa Claus an other "harmless" things teach children a bad lesson (that lying is ok if you can justify it properly). Like I said, this discussion isn't something new that I just thought up.

[whichwayisup]

I am not comparing anything. I am asking about something which has nothing to do with an A. There is no damage cause by an A, because at the point when the decision is made, it cannot be know there is an A.

 

But the damage IS being done, even though the BS isn't aware of it. Yet.. The MM/MW damn well knows he/she is causing damage to their own marriage, though they lie/pretend to themselves they aren't. Anybody who truly believes that having an affair doesn't cause problems even if the BS is unsuspecting, is fooling themselves.

 

As I said, start another thread if you want to ask something that has nothing to do with the topic being discussed in this thread.

[SoMovinOn]

The context of the thread that raised the issue of snooping is infidelity. It is on the infidelity board where people go to discuss cheating partners and to get advise/ support about dealing with the fallout of infidelity. It is not a general subject. It is not about snooping in general. It is about snooping in the context of a cheating partner.

 

This thread on this board is also not about a general subject. It concerns a book advising "good" people who find themselves in an affair and it is located on a board tilted for OW/OM to discuss their affairs.

 

Raising the issue of snooping in a non cheating context is completely contrary to the subject matter of both forums and to both threads specifically. It is a strawman.

 

Thanks for offering your opinion Phoenix.

 

As the topic of this thread involves whether or not "Good" people can lie or engage in other bad behaviors, discussing whether or not good people can lie or engage in other bad behaviors seems to be right on topic to me. If you see it differently, I can respect that. I'd never force you to respond.

[SoMovinOn]

But the damage IS being done...

 

That isn't known at the point where the potential BS has to choose to engage in harmful behavior.

 

You might check the infidelity section for posts from potential BS's struggling with this very decision. As I've mentioned, this isn't something I dreamed up.

 

It applies well in the context of this discussion - can good people do bad things?

 

 

As I said, start another thread if you want to ask something that has nothing to do with the topic being discussed in this thread.

 

Be careful. Even though I am sure you are not telling me how to post, I can tell you from experience that for some posters here, if they even think you're telling someone how to post or not post, they will give you a lot of grief over it.

[PhoenixRise]

Thanks for offering your opinion Phoenix.

 

As the topic of this thread involves whether or not "Good" people can lie or engage in other bad behaviors, discussing whether or not good people can lie or engage in other bad behaviors seems to be right on topic to me. If you see it differently, I can respect that. I'd never force you to respond.

 

 

It is NOT my opinion that the thread that prompted this threadjack about snooping in a non cheating context is located in the Infidelity forum. It is also NOT my opinion that the Infidelity forum is designed to discuss infidelity/cheating. Those are facts

 

It is NOT my opinion that this forum is designed to discuss affairs and is tilted toward OM/OW. That is a fact.

 

It is NOT my opinion that this thread is here to discuss a book that intended to advise "good" People who are having affairs. That is a fact.

 

None of this has ANYTHING at all to do with snooping on a spouse in a non-cheating context.

 

There is however a Marriage and Long Term Partnership forum where marital issues that don't necessarily have to do with cheating are discussed.

 

But in the OW/OM forum and in the Infidelity forum, affairs and cheating ARE the subject.

 

The whole issue of snooping on a non cheating spouse is a strawman because the forums and thread in question are ABOUT cheating.

[Severely Unamused]

Unfortunately, the main problem with snooping, spying, being deceitful and lying to your spouse in the course of doing so, invading their privacy, is you can't know if they are "in the black" until after the fact. It certainly seems easy to justify whatever you have done at that point.

 

What happens if you find nothing, if there is nothing to find though? Do you then come clean to your spouse? Admit to them you suspected they were doing something wrong and you invaded their privacy in order to check up on them (and found nothing)?

 

I personally didn't attempt to "justify" anything. I accepted that I could in fact be a complete bollock head when I began snooping. But I get what you are saying.

 

I would imagine that the answers to your second paragraph would be fairly comparable to what people would do if they had an affair. Most would not tell. Some would feel no guilt about not telling, while others would be destroyed by their guilt. A minority would tell. Some would tell because they believe that their spouse deserves to know, while others would do it because they can't deal with their guilt.

 

I would like to think that I would confess, but I would never really know. Although, as fs said, confessing would allow my SO and I to discuss why I felt the need to snoop, and how we can constructively deal with it.

Edited December 5, 2011 by Severely Unamused

[donnamaybe]

But the damage IS being done, even though the BS isn't aware of it. Yet.. The MM/MW damn well knows he/she is causing damage to their own marriage, though they lie/pretend to themselves they aren't. Anybody who truly believes that having an affair doesn't cause problems even if the BS is unsuspecting, is fooling themselves.

 

As I said, start another thread if you want to ask something that has nothing to do with the topic being discussed in this thread.

 

And the cheater is wasting sometimes years of their spouse's lives that they cannot get back. Give people the right to not live a lie.

[donnamaybe]

It is NOT my opinion that the thread that prompted this threadjack about snooping in a non cheating context is located in the Infidelity forum. It is also NOT my opinion that the Infidelity forum is designed to discuss infidelity/cheating. Those are facts

 

It is NOT my opinion that this forum is designed to discuss affairs and is tilted toward OM/OW. That is a fact.

 

It is NOT my opinion that this thread is here to discuss a book that intended to advise "good" People who are having affairs. That is a fact.

 

None of this has ANYTHING at all to do with snooping on a spouse in a non-cheating context.

 

There is however a Marriage and Long Term Partnership forum where marital issues that don't necessarily have to do with cheating are discussed.

 

But in the OW/OM forum and in the Infidelity forum, affairs and cheating ARE the subject.

 

The whole issue of snooping on a non cheating spouse is a strawman because the forums and thread in question are ABOUT cheating.

 

I got it the first time...

[MissBee]

Of COURSE someone who has not been involved in an affair is very likely to have a negative bias concerning them. Our culture does not condone them and has a negative bias concerning them. Our culture generally elevates certain qualities like honesty, being trustworthy, faithfulness, loyalty and monogamy, which are all abandoned when people have clandestine affairs.

 

Also, millions of people who HAVE been involved in affairs, or even who are currently involved in affairs have a "negative bias" concerning them. They post here all the time.

 

As I have posted before, I was involved with a married man at one time and I am ashamed of it. My husband cheated on his first wife and the effects of this on his self esteem and confidence (not to mention his marriage, ex wife and family) were devastating, and took years for him to overcome. And we "understand" what we were involved in just as much as you understand what you are.

 

Your statement about "understanding them fully" is quite meaningless, anyway. A person who has an affair does not necessarily "understand them fully." They might understand the relationship they are involved in fully, but relationships between AP's vary immensely, just like relationships between married people, or siblings, etc., do.

 

What does your affair have in common with the relationships a rich old married man has with a series of young women he "keeps"? Or with a guy who screws a particular pretty waitress in a bar a few times a year when he's drunk?

 

About the only thing I can think of that they all have in common is selfishness.

 

SMO, from your posting history here on LS I get the idea that for you personally, "affairs," participating in them, thinking, talking, justifying and rationalizing them are cornerstones of how you define yourself as a person. Your current marriage started as an affair, right? I know there are a handful of people like this posting here on LS, but honestly, I don't think it's very common even among affair - havers generally.

 

 

I have to agree with this and that is what I gather as well. SMO has explained before all the affairs of his life and pretty much a world where he and his friends are sleeping with each other's wives and so forth and in that particular discussion I asked if he realized that such situations aren't average and the average person doesn't really do that...in which he did agree that his life with regards to affairs wasn't the norm. With that said, I feel like one should live their life as they see fit. Those comfortable in themselves and with their choices rarely have reasons to go on and on defending them, especially on a board where they realize the average person won't "understand" or support it...that is what makes no sense to me. Something doesn't add up. You either feel comfortable and fine, in which case you probably wouldn't even need to discuss it...and even if you did want to discuss affairs...wouldn't you rather find a space in which more people feel as you do?? That only makes sense I do think something is askew when one claims comfort on one hand but is always in apologia mode OR admits people do not "get it" but still stick around those people trying to make them get it.....

[Mme. Chaucer]

SMO, from your posting history here on LS I get the idea that for you personally, "affairs," participating in them, thinking, talking, justifying and rationalizing them are cornerstones of how you define yourself as a person. Your current marriage started as an affair, right? I know there are a handful of people like this posting here on LS, but honestly, I don't think it's very common even among affair - havers generally.

I have to agree with this and that is what I gather as well. SMO has explained before all the affairs of his life and pretty much a world where he and his friends are sleeping with each other's wives and so forth and in that particular discussion I asked if he realized that such situations aren't average and the average person doesn't really do that...in which he did agree that his life with regards to affairs wasn't the norm. With that said, I feel like one should live their life as they see fit. Those comfortable in themselves and with their choices rarely have reasons to go on and on defending them, especially on a board where they realize the average person won't "understand" or support it...that is what makes no sense to me. Something doesn't add up. You either feel comfortable and fine, in which case you probably wouldn't even need to discuss it...and even if you did want to discuss affairs...wouldn't you rather find a space in which more people feel as you do?? That only makes sense I do think something is askew when one claims comfort on one hand but is always in apologia mode OR admits people do not "get it" but still stick around those people trying to make them get it.....

 

I don't even understand, SMO, why you and your friends / their husbands & wives / your AP / your AP's husband / your AP's husband's AP's/ your wife / her AP's, (etc., if I haven't covered all of the pertinent affair having combinations in your life) don't consider yourselves polyamorous / swingers, and just let yourselves be free to live this lifestyle openly.

 

Why is it important for all of you to live your lives this way while in the "confines" of supposedly monogamous marriages?

[nofool4u]

No. The government may, but not society.

 

Exactly.

 

And the title of this thread is an oxymoron.

[MissBee]

I don't even understand, SMO, why you and your friends / their husbands & wives / your AP / your AP's husband / your AP's husband's AP's/ your wife / her AP's, (etc., if I haven't covered all of the pertinent affair having combinations in your life) don't consider yourselves polyamorous / swingers, and just let yourselves be free to live this lifestyle openly.

 

Why is it important for all of you to live your lives this way while in the "confines" of supposedly monogamous marriages?

 

Good question.

 

I've said before that I do respect those who choose these lifestyles and are open and honest about it with those they choose to be with...

 

I think that is very different than having secret affairs...

 

I also have a problem with affairs being discussed, then those who seem to be living swingers lifestyles or in a very small and personal world where they have all these swinger type relationships where everyone is in the know---but still want to call it an affair. Why? If you are sleeping with your friend's wife and he knows and who all else are sleeping with each other's spouse in your circle and everyone knows...what is the point of calling it an affair or using such an example to talk about affairs in general, when it is evident that that is NOT what most people mean?

 

In general...you should know your audience and know what social milieu you're speaking in and thus contribute with that knowledge. I think it is a waste of time to be on a board where most people's idea of an affair is X....when people talk about affairs they likely mean X...most seeking and giving advice are using the common understanding of X...then you consistently come into the conversation sideways with Z which is hardly relatable to anyone else's experience. I don't know about anyone else, but for me, if I walk into an online forum/real life setting with a Z mindset and everyone else, except maybe 1 or 2 others have an X mindset and X is the norm...I am going to take my Z and move it along elsewhere where more people are coming from that angle as well. I don't see the point of walking into a predominantly X mindset and demanding everyone else get my Z point of view. Which goes back to the millions of threads on LS in which someone with a Z mindset is complaining about how LS is and asking for it to somehow be different....when it seems A LOT easier as the one with the Z mindset among Xs to be the one to leave and forge your own path instead of "converting" the entire LS.

 

I have said before: personal experience does count. I cannot say that you have or have not had certain experiences. But again, within a larger context, how do you frame your own experience? Is it average, common or is it more on the fringes? It only makes sense that depending on where it falls...and where everyone else you're interacting with experiences fall...you should keep that in mind in your discussion. It is only prudent to be able to have your personal experience but be able to isolate it and look around at how it fits in a larger scheme. If it doesn't fit that much with the larger scheme...own that and discuss with that in mind...versus being unaware of your position as it relates to the rest of your social/cultural milieu.

Edited December 5, 2011 by MissBee

[SoMovinOn]

I don't even understand, SMO, why you and your friends / their husbands & wives / your AP / your AP's husband / your AP's husband's AP's/ your wife / her AP's, (etc., if I haven't covered all of the pertinent affair having combinations in your life) don't consider yourselves polyamorous / swingers, and just let yourselves be free to live this lifestyle openly.

 

Why is it important for all of you to live your lives this way while in the "confines" of supposedly monogamous marriages?

 

I don't know, and I suppose that would be way outside of being relevant to this thread. I will say though, most of that stuff was going on many years ago and it was kind of the thing at the time.

 

My A with my STBXW (prior to us getting M, obviously), and my current A with my GF are more "traditional A's".