SoMovinOn Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 SMO, from your posting history here on LS I get the idea that for you personally, "affairs," participating in them, thinking, talking, justifying and rationalizing them are cornerstones of how you define yourself as a person. Your current marriage started as an affair, right? I know there are a handful of people like this posting here on LS, but honestly, I don't think it's very common even among affair - havers generally. I don't think it is uncommon, but, I think it is uncommon among the posters here, who seem to primarily be OW involved with MM. I don't think A's would in any way be any type of cornerstone in how I define myself. They are are rare part of my life overall. I don't spend a lot of time trying to define myself, but if I did, there are a host of things that would come up long before A's ever popped into my head. You are not entirely incorrect though, however, it's more broad than A's in that I have, over the years, learned that nice guys finish last, that if you do all the right things, you're just as likely to get screwed over as anyone else, that people who get ahead doing the "wrong" things rarely suffer negative consequences, that the meek shall inherit the earth - one six foot plot at a time, and, if you go after the things you want in life, you will likely be more successful and happier. Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I am sure that if an affair progresses past mere sexual fun, it encompasses many aspects other than pleasure just like all relationships between people do. Still, if it were not yielding pleasurable rewards (which can even include negative things - for example lots of people get off on the emotional intensity of fighting) people would abandon the affair. Bottom line is: if it requires dishonesty to do it, I think it's wrong. And I will tend to judge the people involved harshly. As I judged myself for similar behavior. I don't think that is unreasonable. Perhaps I am more accepting of people who lie as a function of an A because I know I have never met anyone who never lies (I never met Mother Theresa or Gandhi). Everyone lies, just that we generally categorize lies on some level of acceptability (lying to your kids about Santa Claus is OK, but lying to your spouse about who you are having sex with is not). Oddly enough, I *hate* when people lie to *me* - because I don't think they have a reason to do so. I don't react violently, or even with anger. My reaction to honesty is generally positive, so, why lie to me? I also know that many people do not react well to honesty. In that case, they teach people to lie to them by demonstrating an inability to handle the truth. How many BS's would handle honesty well? Link to post Share on other sites
anne1707 Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 How many BS's would handle honesty well? That could be interpreted as if you are saying that the BS is at fault for the affair being kept secret. I actually think generally the person who does not handle honesty well is the WS. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Correct. No one would bother with an A if they didn't see positives to it. I think the confusion is some people want to believe that if anything pleasurable is involved (love, companionship, support...), then, ultimately, pleasure is the main motivating factor. I am simply suggesting people don't see it that way except perhaps in A's engaged in purely for sex. Then what WOULD be the "main motivating factor?" Don't we get involved in R's because those people "please" us in some way? Does someone fall in love with someone who doesn't please them? Link to post Share on other sites
Mme. Chaucer Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 SMO, I think it's you who are being deliberately obtuse. I was the person who originally wrote the phrase Consciously engaging in dishonesty in order to reap pleasurable rewards for oneself Pleasurable rewards that might be reaped in an affair, I'm pretty sure almost everyone can agree, can encompass any or all of the following: love sex companionship connection romance drama watching TV desire feeling needed feeling desired naughtiness understanding excitement intensity partying friendship laughter fun gifts smoking cigarettes together kinkiness "us against the world" special bonding comfort fighting & making up ego boost dreams passion "the forbidden" getaways conversation mystery the joy of sneaking watching movies eating rescuing being rescued The list is not comprehensive or in any particular order. I'm not judging the specific pleasurable aspects. Negative things also "reap pleasurable rewards" for many people. And I never even remotely implied that there were "only two choices, pleasure or distaste." Where you got that from, I have no clue. The point I was making that I BELIEVE that to consciously engage in dishonesty in order to reap pleasurable rewards IS WRONG. I purposely included the "reap pleasurable rewards" to differentiate situations where someone might be consciously dishonest for other reasons, like to get food for their starving family. Seeking pleasure, power, lucre, love, new shoes, using dishonest methods to get them are wrong, IMO, and "shades of grey" don't make them right. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 (lying to your kids about Santa Claus is OK, but lying to your spouse about who you are having sex with is not).Please don't tell me you don't understand there is a difference and why. Link to post Share on other sites
Mme. Chaucer Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Everyone lies, just that we generally categorize lies on some level of acceptability (lying to your kids about Santa Claus is OK, but lying to your spouse about who you are having sex with is not). I hope you are aware of how out of place this is. Oddly enough, I *hate* when people lie to *me* - because I don't think they have a reason to do so. I don't react violently, or even with anger. My reaction to honesty is generally positive, so, why lie to me? Well, here's something to latch onto. Guess what. For many people, the point of honesty is in the BEING HONEST, not the result, or the reaction of other people. Otherwise, it's just more manipulative, give-to-get behavior. Which I have zero use for. I also know that many people do not react well to honesty. In that case, they teach people to lie to them by demonstrating an inability to handle the truth. How many BS's would handle honesty well? Bull. A liar is demonstrating an inability to handle the consequences of his or her choices / behavior, and lies in order to control that and to keep things comfortable for themselves. That's why people lie to you - and that is why you lie. Children learn to lie just as you say. When we are adults, we choose whether to be honest and to own the results, or to lie and try to keep things easy for ourselves. It's a moral choice. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Or the OW who got pissed off that MM slept with his W, so MM just stopped telling her the truth. Yeah, I guess that brand of honesty wasn't workin' for that particular situation. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 How many BS's would handle honesty well?If there was honesty, there would be no BS's. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 I hope you are aware of how out of place this is. Well, here's something to latch onto. Guess what. For many people, the point of honesty is in the BEING HONEST, not the result, or the reaction of other people. Otherwise, it's just more manipulative, give-to-get behavior. Which I have zero use for. Bull. A liar is demonstrating an inability to handle the consequences of his or her choices / behavior, and lies in order to control that and to keep things comfortable for themselves. That's why people lie to you - and that is why you lie. Children learn to lie just as you say. When we are adults, we choose whether to be honest and to own the results, or to lie and try to keep things easy for ourselves. It's a moral choice. Damn, that was ALL good stuff!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Silly_Girl Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Or the OW who got pissed off that MM slept with his W, so MM just stopped telling her the truth. Were you the W or the OW? Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Pleasurable rewards that might be reaped in an affair, I'm pretty sure almost everyone can agree, can encompass any or all of the following:... The point I was making that I BELIEVE that to consciously engage in dishonesty in order to reap pleasurable rewards IS WRONG. I purposely included the "reap pleasurable rewards" to differentiate situations where someone might be consciously dishonest for other reasons, like to get food for their starving family. Seeking pleasure, power, lucre, love, new shoes, using dishonest methods to get them are wrong, IMO, and "shades of grey" don't make them right. My apologies then for reading between the lines. I took it to mean the reason people engage in A's is purely pleasure (i.e. Sex). Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted December 2, 2011 Share Posted December 2, 2011 Please don't tell me you don't understand there is a difference and why. Please tell me you read the entire sentence, in which I am making the very point that there is a difference. "Everyone lies, just that we generally categorize lies on some level of acceptability (lying to your kids about Santa Claus is OK, but lying to your spouse about who you are having sex with is not)." Link to post Share on other sites
Tenacity Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 somovingon... no offense, but you seem to be one of the "everything is shades of grey, especially when it's to my benefit that they been seen that way" type of thinker... some people aren't like that... to some of us, some things are just hurtful and wrong, and no circumstances will mitigate the pain they inflict. It's like if someone murdered of of my kids... do you think I'm going to give much thought to "extenuating circumstances"? I don't think I would. I didn't read the entire thread. Sorry. But this struck me. Comparing someone murdering your children to an affair? Seriously??? A murderer is the same as an adulterer? OMG. I am no longer sure that human beings were meant to be monogamous. I am no longer sure that people who have affairs are necessarily horrible people. Some are. But is it universally true? Really, since so many people DO have affairs? They should be compared to child killers? I had an affair, never intended to, never wanted to hurt anyone. Just am a less than perfect human being here, trying to do the right thing now. So yes. I would like to think that "good" people have affairs. I did. I still feel I am a "good" person. I made a huge mistake and I paid for it horribly. If I could take it back I would. Link to post Share on other sites
Mme. Chaucer Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 So yes. I would like to think that "good" people have affairs. I did. I still feel I am a "good" person. I made a huge mistake and I paid for it horribly. If I could take it back I would. You really should read the thread. It's not about people who have affairs being good or bad so much as it's a discussion about whether there is a such thing as inherent "right" and "wrong." I don't think that FS intended to compare having an affair to killing children (forgive me for speaking for you, FS) but rather asking where the line is drawn between when something normally considered "wrong,"(like lying and cheating), is okay depending upon circumstances, and when something is wrong no matter what. Since you say you made a mistake and paid a price for that, I take it that you think your own affair was wrong. I also think I was wrong when I was involved with a married man, and I certainly felt wronged when I was living with a chronic cheater. There are people in this thread explaining why in their cases, there is not anything wrong with their affairs. And others arguing with them! Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 you should read the whole thread, you would see that according to smo, everything has a shade of gray and there is no black/white or right/wrong. Or, in reading it, one would see SMO feels some things are black and white, and some things have shades of grey. Other than that, was there a point you wanted to make? Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Or, in reading it, one would see SMO feels some things are black and white, and some things have shades of grey. Other than that, was there a point you wanted to make? What I am observing is that the "shades of gray" theory comes into play when necessary based on someone's already demonstrated behavior in their own real life dealings. And we are talking about cheating, not murder. Link to post Share on other sites
findingnemo Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 What is the definition of a good person? Someone who doesn't lie, steal, what? How do we determine who is good? I think if we knew that we may be able to agree or disagree with the Book title in the OP. Gandhi, Mother Theresa and we know for sure Jesus, the prophets and disciples are considered good people. But I also believe that society considers many people good. Did any of them lie? Cheat on their taxes if only a little? Break any rules? Did they see a friend's house and wish to have one just like that? Was there always a respect for their parents? In other words, did they break any of the 10 commandments for those of us who are Christian? If any "good" people ever did something something that is not considered good, then it's conceivable that good people can engage in an A. It is not really the person we should be labeling but the behaviour. And that's why the title of the book ticks me off. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 The title of the book is nothing but a transparent marketing ploy intended to target people easily swayed. Apparently, it's working. Link to post Share on other sites
frozensprouts Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 tenacity... i think you may have taken what i said out of context. i did not say that someone who gets involved in an affair is the same as someone who is a child murderer. what was meant s that , to some of us, some things are either "right" or "wrong", and that the mitigating circumstances, while explaining the situation, may do nothing to relieve the pain of those affected by a particular act. I also said ( and maybe you haven't read the whole thread yet and didn't get to this yet), that while i believe that , during the time someone is in an affair they are doing something that is hurtful and harmful, and therefore not "good". this does not mean that they were not "good" before, nor does it mean they can't be "good" again. i also think that it is for those affected and hurt by an affair to decide whether or not it is a "good" thing... i do thank you for commenting on my post...always interesting to hear other's points of view Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 What I am observing is that the "shades of gray" theory comes into play when necessary based on someone's already demonstrated behavior in their own real life dealings. And we are talking about cheating, not murder. Perhaps for you. For me, I can identify situations which are either black and white or shades of grey whether or not they involve me. Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 What is the definition of a good person? Someone who doesn't lie, steal, what? How do we determine who is good? I think if we knew that we may be able to agree or disagree with the Book title in the OP. Gandhi, Mother Theresa and we know for sure Jesus, the prophets and disciples are considered good people. But I also believe that society considers many people good. Did any of them lie? Cheat on their taxes if only a little? Break any rules? Did they see a friend's house and wish to have one just like that? Was there always a respect for their parents? In other words, did they break any of the 10 commandments for those of us who are Christian? If any "good" people ever did something something that is not considered good, then it's conceivable that good people can engage in an A. It is not really the person we should be labeling but the behaviour. And that's why the title of the book ticks me off. Good post. I can easily understand why the title of the book would bother you then. Of course, as has been mentioned, the title is geared towards marketing and sales, not in making an actual statement or point. Sales might not do so well for a book titled "Why losers like you have affairs", right? Link to post Share on other sites
SoMovinOn Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 A thread in another section of the forum made me think of an appropriate question for this thread... Can someone who invades their spouses privacy be considered a good person? Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 Perhaps for you. For me, I can identify situations which are either black and white or shades of grey whether or not they involve me. Nope. Not for me. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted December 4, 2011 Share Posted December 4, 2011 A thread in another section of the forum made me think of an appropriate question for this thread... Can someone who invades their spouses privacy be considered a good person? Was something being hidden detrimental to the spouse? Perhaps the fact that someone was potentially bringing an STD to someone else? Link to post Share on other sites
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