Should I just end it?

[Kelemvor]

I never once said she should not be trying to find full time employment or take a unilateral decision not to work. In fact I think the OP said she does work, part time, oh and just one point, housework IS work!

 

Regardless of that, my point was that it is not a reason to divorce someone. Abuse, adultery, those are reasons to divorce, someone doing something you do not like (for whatever reason and i'm sure she has one) is not a reason to kick them out, get rid...THAT is not love. If we all went around hopping from one person to the next everytime we felt that our spouse was doing or not doing something that we want them to do, then we would all be getting multiple divorces...

 

OH HANG ON...

 

WE ARE

 

Silly little ol' me, I forgot we are living in a self serving, disposable society where everything and everyone is disposable to our own wants and desires...fancy the divorce rate being so high, who would have thought it eh?

 

Whoops, how CARELESS of me...

 

Yes, it's a problem, yes it should be a joint decision, no it is not a reason to stop loving someone. Love is a choice, an action, exercise it and resolve your differences, this is a minor blip, beleive me, look at these boards, look at some others wifes behaviours

 

Phone sex

Emotional affairs

Physical affairs

Drug use

Porn addictions

Adultery with best friends

Taking children away and not allowing their fathers to see them whilst banging OM in your home

 

Listen, I really appreciate your opinion and insight and feel that you can certainly relate.

 

I think we all probably have varying degrees of what we perceive to be "incompatibilities" or actions that warrant divorce. That's just human, normal and subjective.

 

I would extend your list to include two people who might not be very compatible in a multifactorial/multivariable way... even without egregious acts. I mean, the simple fact of life is that sometimes we pair ourselves or are paired with someone who we find then, or later on that we don't have very much in common with. The things you value, they don't and vice versa. Some people approach marriage in a "forever binding" mentality and just tolerate being moderately unhappy because they gain a different type of psychological income from "being unhappy" with someone who might not be the best fit for them.

 

I'm more of the type that I think everyone deserves to be happy and if you can identify enough things that make you and your significant other unhappy, who would want to live their life in this way? That's cruel to me and it's cruel to the other person. Is that Christian? I honestly don't know. I asked my priest a while back one time.... "I'm having a hard time thinking about divorce...because I'm Catholic and well...got married. Surely God means for me to be married because well...here I am! God's will right?" He simply said... "marriage can just as easily be God's will or it could have been YOUR will".

 

It's sad, it's hurtful, anyway you go about it, but sometimes a necessary thing unless you want to live not only your life unhappy, but make someone else's life unhappy.

 

I agree with you that there are "slim pickins" out there, but then again, men are different also with different needs. If I got a divorce, I probably would never seek marriage again unless it just fell in front of me and I was in a completely different stage in life.

[Els]

Shrug. I went to church for 15 years. Most of the active women there supported their husbands - some of them worked but typically earned less and spent less time at work, more at home (and church). They were almost always the ones to retire their career to stay at home when children came around. There were some ambitious and high-flying women, but they were not usually the ones attending church 5x/week.

 

If you feel you are likely to find another woman who practices religion in the manner that your current wife does, and also is as career-minded and ambitious as you, you are welcome to find her. I don't see what is insulting about me stating pure observations.

 

P.S. You yourself mentioned that your wife is the 'prototypical Christian housewife'. Why are you denying it in your post to me? That makes no sense.

Edited November 24, 2011 by Elswyth

[Kelemvor]

Shrug. I went to church for 15 years. Most of the active women there supported their husbands - some of them worked but typically earned less and spent less time at work, more at home (and church). They were almost always the ones to retire their career to stay at home when children came around. There were some ambitious and high-flying women, but they were not usually the ones attending church 5x/week.

 

If you feel you are likely to find another woman who practices religion in the manner that your current wife does, and also is as career-minded and ambitious as you, you are welcome to find her. I don't see what is insulting about me stating pure observations.

 

I simply meant that there are plenty of hard working women out there that DO find time for Church. You can be a hard worker and also a Christian just fine. That's my observations after having lived all over the country. You're also talking about women who retire their career to stay at home once they have kids... I think that's completely different and certainly not my situation. I certainly don't think they suddenly become "better Christians" or more religious simply because they are now "stay at home mom's". That's a very unfair thing to imply.

[Els]

Nor have I ever said such a thing, Kelemvor. All I am saying is that you want the sort of woman who goes to church 5x/week like your current wife does... and also is very ambitious and career-minded. The two may perhaps overlap, but are probably a very, very minor subset of the whole.

 

It was also not about TIME. Did you not read my previous post? Simply put, a large portion of hardcore Christians subscribe to the Bible's commands literally - which means that they feel they are obeying the Bible by being a good housewife.

 

As for women retiring their career to stay at home once they have kids... let's put it this way. You said you wanted someone as ambitious and career-minded as yourself. Would you consider leaving your career to take care of children once you have them?

[Els]

Look, I don't quite get why we are having this argument, to be perfectly frank. You acknowledged in your first post to me that you agree that your wife's idea of being a good partner is influenced heavily by her Christian beliefs and doctrines. You acknowledged in your post to another person that she is being 'the prototypical Christian wife'.

 

Why, then, when I take this a step further and suggest that you learn from your mistakes and look elsewhere than Church should you desire a very career-minded woman, because the likelihood of finding one would be higher... You then recoil and call it an insulting insinuation? It is only the next logical step after making those acknowledgements.

 

Is it because you wish to obey the 'thou shalt not be unequally yoked with an unbeliever' clause, and thus it is unthinkable for you to pair yourself with a non-Christian?

 

What then of the 'man shall toil the earth all the days of his life' while women bear children clause, and what of the 'husbands, love your wife as Christ loved the church' clause?

 

I don't get it. You seem to be jumping to defend a literal interpretation of your faith while wishing for a life that is the opposite of it. Neither is wrong, but you really owe it to yourself and your wife, and whomever you might be with in the future should you make the (very un-hardcore Christian) decision to leave, to make up your mind.

[Viv]

Kelemvor,

 

You appear to be extremely set in your opinions, and to have posted here not for different opinions or advice, but for encouragement that it is acceptable to leave one's wife because she is not earning enough money.

 

You married because you thought 'a key to happiness was in having a family', you did not marry for a life long companion???? and you think that you never gave the 'impression otherwise'. IMO most people marrying would assume that they are entering into a relationship with a life-long companion. It would need to be stated very clearly that they were actually looking for a 'business partner', who was not going to be around emotionally but expected them to work and be independent so as to not ask 'too much of you'.

 

I'm not going to comment here anywhere as it is obviously totally wasted because you refuse to empathise with your wife.

 

I'll be honest, you sound extremely narcissistic. Marriage is about caring and loving someone else not looking for a key to your happiness above all others.

 

Viv

[trippi1432]

OP - From all that I have read here, you really do not need to concern nor try to validate your side of things painting her a horrible woman for not meeting your expectations. Someone else said she violated the marital contract by not being the ambitious, career-oriented woman you thought she was...but I see you violating it as well by refusing to give her children and withholding sex because you are worried that she is trying to get pregnant.

 

Let her move to the other city and find a job in a career that she enjoys...the last thing she needs with two college degrees and a field where the economic downturn is keeping her from following her own chosen path, is to continue to work jobs that do not contribute to experience in that field. While it's commendable that you have such a strong work ethic, I know many who do not excel in their path unless they take odd jobs working on small projects to add to their resume for experience IN that field. I have two friends who are graphic designers, and they work on small projects until they can secure a job with an ad agency or a design house. That is adding experience...neither would scrub toilets and put that on their resume...it's career suicide.

 

Is a divorce imminent? That is what you asked on your first post...I don't typically advocate divorce for most couples, but in this case I agree with others here that it would be for the best in your case. Enough damage has already been done to your marriage...I really don't think you need to come here and try to validate anything and paint your wife as this gold-digging woman who wants to trap you. As you stated previously, you are unhappy and that is extending unhappiness to her, the marriage and any type of happy future together. You are already very adamant that she does not live up to your expectations, nor would she.

 

I wanted children initially when we first married. I married because I not only wanted the personal satisfaction of my career but I thought that a key to happiness was in having a family also. I honestly did not marry for a life long companion or because I was lonely and I never gave this impression to my knowledge. I was very independent then, now, and always will be. I knew I would need someone who was career oriented also so that they wouldn't feel so "left out" of my busy life, and thought that's what I was getting. I mean, a woman with 2 college degrees and 50K in debt to take care of? Who would think differently? She even told me as such. So... after 14 months of what can only be described as a roller coaster ride, or a ship at sea in a storm, kids is completely and utterly off my radar. I've told her that I have no plans on having children anytime soon or the near future until I felt better about our marriage situation. She blames me for "flip flopping" and says "You wanted a family and now you don't." Well, yes... but only because of the situation. If everything had been blissful, I might still feel that way. Perhaps not.

 

To be fair to my wife... I honestly don't think that I would be happy if the financial stress were completely out of the picture. We got married during my internship. I knew that I would be more occupied with my career and hence it was important to have a discussion about our goals and objectives in life and keys to happiness if you will... In her defense, I did say that I had picked a specialty that would allow me more free time in the long run. That being said, I indeed thought that I was marrying a career oriented woman, and was given every indication of such. No other woman would be able to stand living with me I wouldn't think since I live and breath work and if it's not work, it's something involving research that's RELATED to work in some way. During residency, I've come to know myself more deeply and work has become intensely satisfying, if not stressful. I doubt that I'll "slow down" very much after training is over as it's a huge part of who I am and what I gain satisfaction from which was why having a wife who was career oriented was important to me in the first place. So, my stress is definitely financial in a sense because I'm having to worry more about "just working" to pay the bills because she's unwilling to work full time doing something she wouldn't enjoy doing, but then again.. if I had that time back, what would I do with it? I hope spend more time with her, but yes, I'd probably be working more too, just on things that were more high yield to me.

 

So, if the financial stress were suddenly gone? No, I probably wouldn't be any happier. I think she's a wonderful wife, the prototypical Christian homemaker who would love nothing more than to stay at home and raise kids, giving them all the attention and love that they require along with trying to stand steadfast with her husband.

 

I wish I were the more "typical husband" who could appreciate this more.

 

I do agree that I must make a decisive choice about this at some point, and soon. She is truly miserable. We visited a family this week who has children and every time she is around children, she plays and interacts with them....almost to the point where I feel uncomfortable around the other family who we're not even that close with. It's like playing a close aunt to a kid that you barely know but I can see so clearly how badly she wishes children. No matter what she tells me, she'd be happiest with a man who was rich enough to take care of her debt, give her children, work was not such a driving force in his life so that he could appreciate her more and give her more attention.

 

after all "love conquers all", right? I'm sorry but I don't approach life in this way.

 

No, love does not conquer all....it's obvious that marriage is not a role you are into doing, sharing a life with someone for good and bad times is not your forte...nothing wrong with that. What would be wrong would be to continue to stay in the marriage if you are going to continue to only see the your wife as some leech with no work ethic and de-value her good qualities.

 

As someone who was with a verbally abusive and miserable man for 15 years, I would have preferred that he let me go instead of eat away at my self-esteem, sense of value and treat myself, our children and even the family pets horribly. In the end, he only valued my six-figure income..and that he did not get one red cent.

 

She does deserve to be happy and something that I do hope she finds. For you, it's obvious that you need to find someone who has the same values as you, if you have not already found that in your profession. The damage is already done in this marriage...as I said, the chasm just continues to get wider to any type of repair....instead of laying blame on each other...you both need to have a mature discussion of why going your separate ways are warranted and let each other go. Instead of pointing fingers and trying to validate your position, try having some compassion for each other....this isn't for you so stop trying to validate that it's her fault that marriage isn't for you...damage. You being in the medical field should be familiar with compassion...it's necessary for a bedside manner unless you intend to be one of those doctors that nurses hate and patients warn their friends not to go to.

[Kelemvor]

You being in the medical field should be familiar with compassion...it's necessary for a bedside manner unless you intend to be one of those doctors that nurses hate and patients warn their friends not to go to.

 

No sarcasm taken.

 

It's interesting how my posts tend to get picked apart the most harshly by women on these boards coming from previous bad relationships.

 

I'll break it down and end it at this. I'm human. My wife and I are two different people. I can be compassionate all I want, but I need a partner to pull their own weight, period. Marriage isn't supposed to be analogous to playing the role of the plow mule. If you can't pull your own weight and contribute, and do nothing but complain and make excuses when given the opportunity to contribute, then you don't deserve the attention you crave and seek. You don't deserve to be put on a pedestal and admired. Sorry, but that's life. If a women or wife wants my respect, then don't act helpless and complain that I'm abusive and "mean" when I do my best to softly and then sternly encourage responsible behavior. Anyone who makes me work close to 80 hours a week with constant exhaustion and could easily mitigate that with a strong work ethic and motivational drive, being...here's that word...."compassionate" to my needs and realizing how difficult my life is becoming because of her decisions...deserves love and adoration. You want to call feeling as if you're working in slavery because your wife doesn't want to work hard.. narcissistic? Go right ahead. I hope you treat your husband better.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Kelemvor

[findingnemo]

On the contrary, many 'devout' Christians (the ones who go to church 5x/week like the OP's wife, who believe that the husband and wife both must be Christians so as not to be 'unequally yoked', marriage must come before sex, etc) do believe that the Bible calls for traditional gender roles. A literal interpretation of many Bible passages, especially the (in-)famous 'wives, submit to your husband' phrase would naturally lead to that. We're not here to argue theology about which interpretation is right, but statistically, many devout Christian couples I know adhere to this ideology. The husband is the 'head of the house', makes the decisions, the wife follows and supports. Naturally, in that case, the husband would toil to support the family as the main breadwinner as well, as an equally literal interpretation of several Biblical passages suggest.

 

I have known very, very few career-minded and very ambitious women who are also hardcore Christians, hence my suggestion that the OP should not be looking amongst hardcore Christians for them.

 

Hardcore Christians? I wonder what those are? People take biblical passages and make out of them what they want. That's why we have all sorts of Christians in the world. the various interpretations of scripture can leave even life long scholars confused. But that's a whole other subject.

[findingnemo]

Kelemvor,

 

There abosuletly nothing wrong with wanting a W who works to at the minimum pay off her debt. Even if there was no debt and you are both starting out as a couple, why wouldn't she work? Many women work and they don't have even one degree. The problem is a difference in attitudes towards work, period. Many Christian women I know work even if it's just part time and spend the rest of the time at home with the kids. But you have no kids yet for your W to even work part-time.

 

Your W must have known that M for you was not about falling hopelessly in love and being unable to live without her. A lot of people get M for practical reasons and the love develops along the way. Do not equate loving someone with changing yourself in your case.

 

I'm happy that you've decided that kids should come later when you are both more financially stable. But if she's off birth control, you may end up expanding the family whether you choose to or not. Be proactive now and make things very very clear. If the two of you can't agree on financial matters now, then your M will be a very difficult on in the future. It will not do for you to be walking around thinking your W is lazy and for her to be thinking that you're selfish or unreasonable.

 

Willow does have a point. Don't give up on the M just yet. Try to have a discussion and reach a compromise. Your W should work to pay off her debt and then can stay at home but expect a lower standard of living in tune with the family's earnings. To me, that's meeting you half way. Having kids should be planned for later when you are making more and have more free time. If she doesn't agree to this, then both of you are basically incompatible and you should consider ending things sooner rather than later.

 

Personally, I'd love to be able to stay home with my kids and not work full time. But I also know that I'd go crazy doing it for the rest of my life or until the last is 18 years old. I remember during my M discussing this with my H. But he wasn't able to give us what we needed with only his income and I worked full time. Eventually I decided to start my own business which allowed me more flexibility. Thank God that I didn't stay home because now we are separated and I'm the one who takes care of everything. It's hard now but had I been a SAHM, it would have been worse. It is important IMO for both parties to have the ability to bring in an income.

 

So the questions you need to answer include whether or not you and your W have different philosophies on M and the roles of the H and W. Can you find a middle ground in which you are both comfortable? If not, then D is probably the solution.

[westrock]

I honestly did not marry for a life long companion or because I was lonely and I never gave this impression to my knowledge. I was very independent then, now, and always will be. I knew I would need someone who was career oriented also so that they wouldn't feel so "left out" of my busy life, and thought that's what I was getting. I mean, a woman with 2 college degrees and 50K in debt to take care of? Who would think differently?

 

The way you describe yourself is not consistent with the idea of marriage.

 

Why did you even get married in the first place?

 

In reading your posts, I get the feeling this has very little to do with the fact your wife has $50K in debt and her not working, other than the fact it is giving you a reason to complain about having to work 80 hours/week and to rationalize and avoid having to take responsibility for any decision you make to get out of the marriage. Conveniently, you can blame it all on her.

 

You yourself have over $300K in debt! Relatively speaking your wife's $50K debt is not a lot compared to the overall family debt load. In absolute terms $350K combined debt seems high, but when compared to your future income stream, it is very manageable debt load, similar to you having a house mortgage of that amount, which isn't too out of line for someone who will have the income stream you will have after you have finished your program.

 

You complain that your wife is not financially responsible, but I think from what you've written in your posts, you are not financialy confident and it seems you are scared that you will be judged as not being financially responsible.

[findingnemo]

In this economic climate, I think everybody should have financial fears. I also think that as much as $50k may not be much compared to $300k, it is a huge burden and a bit foolhardy to take it on just like that. Both Kelemvor and his W should have discussed this stuff before M and from what he says they did. There was never an understanding that she'd by virtue of M relegate all her debt to him, was there? There seems to be a difference in what the two parties thought they were signing up for. Since the M is relatively new, why not figure out now how to resolve it? If they failed to communicate effectively prior to M, they must try to do so now.

 

I completely disagree that he is not M material or that he went into M while not ready for the responsibility. I don't see that in the OP. I see someone who had expectations that many of us take for granted because most people work. I make/made more money than my stbxh from the beginning. Had he decided after our wedding to stay at home, I'd have gotten a D sooner. It doesn't make me unreasonable. It simply means that I don't value a man like that and had he been clear prior to M, I probably would have moved on.

[trippi1432]

I'll break it down and end it at this. I'm human. My wife and I are two different people.

 

Then stop asking us if you are wrong...you know what you are culpable of...we don't live in your home to see how you speak to your wife...we only see the hate and animosity you have for her here. Let her go and quit asking for validation...support because you are unhappy with yourself more than you are with her. She isn't the reason for your unhappiness...but you don't see that now...eventually, you will.

 

If a women or wife wants my respect, then don't act helpless and complain that I'm abusive and "mean" when I do my best to softly and then sternly encourage responsible behavior. Anyone who makes me work close to 80 hours a week with constant exhaustion and could easily mitigate that with a strong work ethic and motivational drive, being...here's that word...."compassionate" to my needs and realizing how difficult my life is becoming because of her decisions...deserves love and adoration. You want to call feeling as if you're working in slavery because your wife doesn't want to work hard.. narcissistic? Go right ahead. I hope you treat your husband better.

 

Your kidding right? Makes you?...how does she make you work 80 hours a week in YOUR chosen profession as a resident in a doctorate program? The average hours for a resident IS 80 hours a week...it was cut back from 120 hours a week years ago when the medical field realized that the hours were causing harm to patients from residents mistakes due to long hours. You knew what you were doing when you married her, you were already married to your career...so quit blaming her for a course you were already on. Do you want compassion for the stress you are under...sure, but you are certainly going about it the wrong way....you want a punching bag..by all means come here. Perhaps that will give the woman who is trying to make a house a home a break.

 

This last post of yours...wow. I bet when you come home all the air gets sucked out of the room as the stress of your work and your wants, your expectations...YOU, YOU, YOU needs to be met. Sorry, but marriage is not all about YOU. You stated that it's not for you, you hate it..so why keep coming back here to validate what you already know...let her go..quit hanging on because you are AFRAID to be the bad guy..quit hanging on because you DON'T LOVE her....you don't.

 

Does she need to work...absolutely....if nothing else, to stockpile money for a runaway fund. As to your comment, "I hope you treat your husband better"...I do, now that his miserable self is gone...now he does that to his new woman. Quid pro quo. His problems followed him because they were always HIS problems before I was ever a part of his life....stress follows us until WE become responsible for it and stop blaming others for it.

 

If you had any compassion for someone other than yourself, you would let her go and realize that the problems you have reside in you..your stress...your chosen path and you were not ready. Did you get married for the wrong reason...I believe it based on what you have posted here. Stop making it her problem when in truth, it's YOUR problem.

 

Until you can answer why it is YOUR problem...you haven't learned and don't deserve the woman you have...

Edited November 25, 2011 by trippi1432

[Kelemvor]

Guys, the $350K debt load is a huge deal. Docs don't make what they used to when you factor in all the variables. I mean, think about it... I started late, as a 2nd career. I gave up essentially when all is said and done 8 extra years of higher learning (after 2 degrees) with minimal income and a huge educational debt burden. Loans are not 2.5% anymore, they are 7.5%. Calculate 7.5% of $300K just to break even. Then think about paying that as someone in their late 30s on their second career who hasn't even had a chance to start saving for retirement or any of the other stuff that most people get to start doing early. Docs ain't no CEO's anymore or rich in any way with the way medical education costs are going. It will take me many years living very modestly to aggressively pay that off, and then I'll be well into my forties with no retirement savings of any large significance, no investments, etc.. But hey, I made the decision and knew the financial ramifications. I didn't do it for the money and hell I was happy as a clam making an average joe salary. I did medicine because I enjoyed it. I don't have any ambitions of living above middle class or driving anything other than a used car. So, yes we had these discussions prior to marriage but I think she had a completely unrealistic expectation and perhaps we both did, who knows. Either way, whoever insinuated that I suffered from lack of future financial confidence is crazy if that's how you approach finances. Anything can happen so don't ever take your future for granted.

 

Trippi... I really don't have time to get into the whole resident hours thing, nor do I even want to focus on the medicine aspect or make myself seem like I've got a God complex when anybody who knows me, knows that I don't. I'm just going to drop it because I think it would be pointless to try to get you to understand.

 

I mean, hell guys... maybe we just didn't talk about the financial stuff enough. I think she thought it was all "doctor living" like out of the 60s or something and life was going to be easy. Sadly, this is my 2nd career and I'm older and had no plans of living in a big house and driving a mercedes at any point in my life. I want to pay this stuff off and save for retirement. I'm just not a big spender and I don't buy big toys. She's a big spender and just doesn't seem to have much financial sense. We def did not discuss things enough prior to marriage that much is obvious.

 

I appreciate the encouragement to not give up yet. I haven't. This is a good sounding board and I'm not even looking for answers but have appreciated the input. We'll see how it works out. It may be that we're just incompatible on a lot of levels and it's not like I'm perfect... obviously. However, I'm just not the irresponsible, "the future will work itself out" mentality. That's just not me. I've always had a great work ethic and always respected people that had similar principles and just thought I was marrying someone more like me. Bad communication on both our parts, obviously. Like I said though, we'll see how it works out.

[westrock]

Guys, the $350K debt load is a huge deal. Docs don't make what they used to when you factor in all the variables. I mean, think about it... I started late, as a 2nd career. I gave up essentially when all is said and done 8 extra years of higher learning (after 2 degrees) with minimal income and a huge educational debt burden. Loans are not 2.5% anymore, they are 7.5%. Calculate 7.5% of $300K just to break even. Then think about paying that as someone in their late 30s on their second career who hasn't even had a chance to start saving for retirement or any of the other stuff that most people get to start doing early. Docs ain't no CEO's anymore or rich in any way with the way medical education costs are going. It will take me many years living very modestly to aggressively pay that off, and then I'll be well into my forties with no retirement savings of any large significance, no investments, etc.. But hey, I made the decision and knew the financial ramifications. I didn't do it for the money and hell I was happy as a clam making an average joe salary. I did medicine because I enjoyed it. I don't have any ambitions of living above middle class or driving anything other than a used car. So, yes we had these discussions prior to marriage but I think she had a completely unrealistic expectation and perhaps we both did, who knows.

 

If it's such a huge deal for you, then why did you take on the $300K load in the first place? You say your wife is financially irresponsible, but technically she could say the same about you for taking on such a load knowing very well that you have lost time due to it being a 2nd career, little retirement savings, high interest, and so on. You even say you "made the decision and knew the financial ramifications". Why then is it okay for you to have such a huge portion of the load ($300K of the $350K), and not okay for her to have a fraction of that load ($50K of the $350K)?

 

Yes, $350K is huge deal for anyone and it requires careful planning and attention to manage and pay down systematically, but bailing on the marriage for this is an even bigger deal.

 

I don't know what kind of medicine you are doing, but you make it sound like you're going to be doing no better than an "average joe salary". It is likely that you will still have a higher than average income compared to the general population and you have better job opportunities than the "average joe". You say that you don't have any expensive ambitions and don't have any ambitions to drive anything other than a used car. That is the responsible approach, but it also allows you to dedicate more resources to pay down the debt load.

 

Either way, whoever insinuated that I suffered from lack of future financial confidence is crazy if that's how you approach finances. Anything can happen so don't ever take your future for granted.

 

What's crazy is bailing on the marriage for this.

 

Yes, anything can happen, but it's unlikely that you won't be able to find a job in your field, and if you're worried about becoming disabled, you should obtain disability insurance.

 

You're not showing any confidence from what you've written. If you are so confident, then why are you making such a big deal of $50K debt (vs. your $300K) that you want to end the marriage?

 

For whatever reason, it seems you are just not comfortable with a $350K debt load. But as I wrote earlier, it sounds like the $50K is not the real issue but rather is just a convenient way for you to rationalize getting out of the marriage and being able to say it was all her fault.

 

If the two of you can't get past this on your own, you should go to a financial planner to help you get a financial plan in place, and also marriage counsellng to find out what is really going on here.

[Kelemvor]

Why then is it okay for you to have such a huge portion of the load ($300K of the $350K), and not okay for her to have a fraction of that load ($50K of the $350K)?

 

Dude... do the math and back up and think about what you're saying. I'm a resident, I have a wife who will not take a stable and secure job that would allow her to pay on her loans and stop her interest from accruing. This prevents me from paying anything on my own loans to also prevent interest from accruing. The IBR plan was created for this when federal loan interest went through the roof. So, I'm incurring $22.5K this year alone that is added to the principal and the next year is even more. All because my wife can't conceive of taking a job that she might not "enjoy". She's not disabled, she's not sick, she's not anything other than someone who just DOESN'T WANT to be responsible or do anything that she doesn't deem "enjoyable" enough. That's my interest and then you can calculate hers for yourself. You call that responsible? You don't walk into a marriage with another person who you already knows owes that amount of debt and NOT expect to work or pull your own weight to help them handle their own debt. That's responsible living, period. You better believe that's not "o.k." in my book.

 

I don't know what kind of medicine you are doing, but you make it sound like you're going to be doing no better than an "average joe salary". It is likely that you will still have a higher than average income compared to the general population and you have better job opportunities than the "average joe".

 

http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html

 

Maybe that will put things in perspective for you. That's totally ignoring the fact that I'm older and won't be able to sustain a career for as long as other physicians, ignoring the payback of $300K student loans, ignoring the payback of $50K spouses loans. I never said I wouldn't be able to put food on the table or live in poverty, nor did I say that it was financially "disastrous" to pursue medicine. I simply said I knew it wasn't financially a "great" idea. I'm never going to be "rich" and I don't need to be. However, I don't want to be married to someone who can't be financially responsible or help me help myself which in turn helps me help both of us. Good Lord, it's not like we were on our honeymoon night and I pulled out all the financial papers and said "surprise!". She knew all of this. I knew all of this. There's absolutely NOTHING unreasonable about expecting an able bodied adult to pull their weight and start paying their loans. Her excuse of "I wouldn't be happy enough doing X" means I owe $30K more each year. How "happy" do you think that makes me? Does MY happiness play a role in any of this?

 

Give me a break.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Kelemvor

[westrock]

I did medicine because I enjoyed it.

 

Her excuse of "I wouldn't be happy enough doing X" means I owe $30K more each year. How "happy" do you think that makes me? Does MY happiness play a role in any of this?

 

Give me a break.

 

You're operating on a double standard.

 

It's seems that you get to do something you enjoy, but she has to suck it up and do something that she doesn't? Don't you care about her happiness?

 

I read that article you linked to comparing a UPS Driver's income to a Doctor's income. The "update" by the author is very telling:

 

UPDATE: Medicine just became a much more desirable profession, thanks to the economic crash that devastated our economy in 2008. The profession of medicine offers one thing—job security—that is nice in good times but as precious as gold in bad times. I needn't remind you that things are bad now, and almost certain to get much worse (if you doubt that, read this). When times change, it is important to change with the times. I've used a lot of ink warning students in the past about the drawbacks of a medical career, and all of those reasons were quite valid. The cons are still there, but the list of pros just mushroomed in importance thanks to the inherent job security in most medical careers. Good luck trying to find another career that offers comparable job security.

 

 

That comparison of income in the article is somewhat misleading because it attempts to show that in relative terms a UPS Driver who works as many hours as a doctor makes more money than a Doctor. Theoretically that may be true, but, in reality, the UPS driver doesn't work that many hours, and the doctor works more hours, and in actual dollars the doctor is making 3x as much ($60K vs $180K).

 

With $180K annual income, that puts you in the top 5% of income earners. Even if you take $80K per year (including the taxes, etc.) you can systematically pay the annual interest and a good amount of principal each year and eventually pay off that debt load in a timely manner, and still have $100K (pretax) each year left over to live. That's still a lot more than the UPS Driver.

 

I don't want to argue with you because it seems you are convinced that your wife's actions are justifiable in ending the marriage.

 

I wish you the best.

[Kelemvor]

You're operating on a double standard.

 

It's seems that you get to do something you enjoy, but she has to suck it up and do something that she doesn't? Don't you care about her happiness?

 

Doesn't she care about mine? Is marriage a one way street to you, pal? If so, good luck in your journey of one sided sacrifice.

 

That comparison of income in the article is somewhat misleading because it attempts to show that in relative terms a UPS Driver who works as many hours as a doctor makes more money than a Doctor. Theoretically that may be true, but, in reality, the UPS driver doesn't work that many hours, and the doctor works more hours, and in actual dollars the doctor is making 3x as much ($60K vs $180K).

 

There's nothing misleading about it. You give up 8-12 years of income to earn that amount, incurring 2-300K of debt unless you've got a rich family or a scholarship. You seem to forget that in looking at the graph. That's also working 1.5-2x as many hours. You think the UPS driver wants to work those hours? You think docs do? Yea, I said I picked medicine because I enjoy helping people. Luckily, I get to do that. There's a fine distinction between monetary income, psychological income, and relative stress. I like helping people. You know what I don't like? Having a teenager die on a trauma table and explain to a room full of family members that I did everything I could but they just didn't make it. Putting the 80 year old grandmother to sleep and on a ventilator, watching her eyes close for the last time knowing she'll never come off, or wake up, and that I'll need to talk to the son and help him come to the decision to turn life support off. I don't much like lying awake at night either and wondering if I had made a different decision, would it have made any difference. Maybe? Maybe, not. You think I like working twice as much as everyone else out there? You think I like the stress of my job and living with some of the hard decisions I have to make? I like helping people, but I don't want to work more than I should be expected to simply because someone doesn't "enjoy sitting at a desk". Double standard my ass. You have no idea what the hell you are talking about when it comes to my career.

 

With $180K annual income, that puts you in the top 5% of income earners. Even if you take $80K per year (including the taxes, etc.) you can systematically pay the annual interest and a good amount of principal each year and eventually pay off that debt load in a timely manner, and still have $100K (pretax) each year left over to live. That's still a lot more than the UPS Driver.

 

What planet are you living on? Net income would be 120K, wanna pay 80K on your loans and your wife who refuses to work? What does that leave you? 40K? 40K to pay your mortgage, your retirement (which you have little to none because you sacrificed 8-12 years with no income to do your profession), got 2 or 3 kids? Going to use that money to save for their college fund or put them in a good school system? Somehow that 180K doesn't seem so cush anymore now does it? Especially considering that 30K of it just went poof to pay for the interest alone so you could at least break even before paying on the principal. But hey, you love your wife and don't care that she doesn't want to work, and don't mind that you feel the need to work twice as hard in an environment that is infinitely more stressful than a UPS drivers truck. On some of my really bad days, I'd love to be delivering packages.

 

So, there's nothing misleading at all about that article. Job security? Hell, plenty of fields have job security, that's no reason to become a doctor. You simply are under the impression that every doc out there is living the high life and must be having a grand ol time as a "top 5% earner". I never asked to be treated any differently. I never asked or wanted to be rich. I never asked or wanted to be treated special. I just wanted to help people just like plenty of other people do in other fields or in their own way. I'll tell you what I do want though, is someone who appreciates what I do and sees the emotional and psychological tole it takes on me and has the human decency to get off their ass and work like any able bodied person to help relieve my stress so we can work together as a team. If that's not fair to you, then you've got one severely warped philosophy of life and marriage.

 

Why don't you do us both a favor and just stop posting. It's obvious we don't agree.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Kelemvor

[Majkl]

First of all I'd like to say that I have utmost respect for your profession and the calling you are doing. Now to your situation, I only needed to read one post from you to realize you have already made your mind up friend. Sooner or later you will have to face reality of it, this is who you are and this is what you believe, if you need someone to back you up then you have to adress it or move on. Everything else is just a time wasting limbo that will do you or your wife no good.

 

I am not for giving up easily, I believe in working it out, however there needs to be two for that. Best of luck to you.

[forlackof]

Granted I have never been married, but I just got out a relationship somewhat similar to yours.

 

I am a very career driven (I am very worried about not having a nest egg) 20 something female who worked a very demanding (think 70-80s during at least 6 months of the year) job so that I could have that feeling that I would be secure and have a retirement fund to fall on when I am older. I don't really like my job, but I am going through the motions and exploring my options until I can land that dream job. In the mean time, this job more than pays the bills.

 

My significant other at the time had not held a steady job for two years. Sure he looked, but he felt like every job was below him unless it was truly his passion. He lived off his parents, and refused to take any job that would pay so that he could pay his portion of the bills.

 

He constantly told me that what I made was in the top % of people who graduated college and that I was just obsessed about money and being ridiculous. When he moved away for his job and broke up with me, one of the reasons he cited was that we were incompatible and that he wished me the best and that "I hope you will be rich" one day.

 

That really stung, because I don't necessary want to be rich, I just want financial security. I can't live off my parents, rack up cc-debt, and still feel financially responsible. That is just simply not who I am regardless of what job I have.

 

Yes, I wish I was still with my significant other. HOWEVER, I am young, and I think that we were to stay together, I would always be working and I would grow resentful that he would not work unless it was 100% suitable for him. He would never be fulfilled because I simply do not have the time to be a doting house-wive like girlfriend.

 

In fact, I was somewhat resentful at the end of the relationship, and that is also probably one of the reasons that it ended.

 

I was with my significant other for almost 5 years. Looking back, I should have saw the red flags that we were incompatible when it came to work/finances. My ex would rather work a little to no pay job and be outdoors all day.

 

In the grand scheme of things, work for some people is your life/passion, and for some other's it just not.

 

You will never be able to fulfill your wife the way she deserves if you continue to work those hours and be resentful of lack of contribution in the financial area.

 

You should let her go, if you loved her. She will find someone who is more compatible with her outlook on work/life balance and so will you.

Edited November 26, 2011 by forlackof