Mere suggestion of Prenup and she screams bloody murder!

[HT_Nut]

I've been seeing this person for a couple of years on and off. Lately, we've been discussing moving in together and progressing toward the big "M". I did tell her that I would like to open dialog for a prenup. I mean, I didn't even discuss what I had in mind.

 

My view is this:

 

Alimony is for those couples where one person stays home, raises the kids, and supports the other while he/she is out building a career. If the one that has the career leaves, then he/she is responsible to support the other because the other sacrificed his/her career for the family. Plain and simple, that’s fair.

 

However, I’m 42, raised my kids already, and built my career on my own. She wanted to go to work part time and be home with her kids; I was fine with that. I told her I would support that, but not endorse it. In other words, as long as she was married to me, I would support her; but not a second afterwards. If she chooses to stay home and not maintain her job skills, that's her choice. I don't need a stay at home wife to take care of me; I've been doing fine for the last 10 years.

Would it be cool to have someone taking care of the house? Sure. Do I NEED that to survive? No. Do I need someone to take care of my kids because it's too expensive for day care and I make nothing. No My kids are 15, 19, and 20. The 19 and 20 year old don't live with me anymore. The 15 year old does.

 

At this point in life, I see it as a day to day exchange. She takes care of the house (her choice) and gets her part time life and I work.

 

I also told her that if she had agreed to the idea of a prenup and wanted to discuss the terms, I probably would have dropped the issue; however, since she was so outspoken about her opposition, it raised a HUGE flag. I mean, we didn’t even get to the details of it; she freakied at the mere mention of it! It started to look to me like she wanted a financial enabler more than she wanted me. So, I sent her my terms and told her when I got it back signed, I’d call her. But I don’t see any reason to pursue the relationship if we can’t agree to a prenup. I won’t get married without one now. Even if I never hear from her again, I think this will always be a topic for discussion when a future relationship turns serious.

 

The only terms I had were:

 

Any increase in salary after marriage is subject to State guidelines for spousal support.

 

Any equity increase in property value after marriage gets split evenly.

 

Am I out of line on this? Does getting married at this point in life mean I’d owe some “Joanie come lately” alimony for life if the marriage doesn’t work? I’m fine with splitting assets acquired during marriage.

 

I have built my career before I even met her. She wasn't there when I was struggling as a night club drummer, college boy, and single dad; I think all of it should go with me if it doesn’t work out. What I don’t get is why the courts would allow me to keep 100% of a house if I bought it before I got married; why they don’t see a career that way I don’t know.

 

 

Comments??

[tiki]

I'll marry you and we can sign a pre-nup as long as I can hang out in your house all day and not have to work.

 

I noticed that you were from NJ. Where I'm from, we don't have a lot to pre-nup. Trailers, beat up trucks, nobody really owns a whole lot of much significance. As a successful career man, on the other hand, you do. You realize the reality of divorce, you've been that route. Has she ever been married? Does she realize the going divorce rate? Does she realize the going divorce rate for second marriages? Sit down and talk to her face to face and express your concerns. Remind her that you've been through a divorce, and you realize that splitting up IS a possibility.

 

Of course she doesn't want to sign a pre-nup if she's coming to the table with nothing? Would she want to lose her income? Her home? Pre-nup's are for the rich where I'm from...those that have/own a lot. It's not an every day occurence. You worked hard for your money and your own future. Gently explain to her that you want that to stay to way before, during and after her. I don't think it's too unrealistic.

[bluechocolate]

The way you've explained it doesn't sound unreasonable at all.

 

You're not about to start out with a new family & you haven't asked her to stop working. I would think that you also have to think about your children's future & any possibly inheritence to them.

 

Perhaps she's interpreted this as an admission from you that you're planning for failure, but she should have been able to communicate her feeling & fears without flying off the handle. You were right to see a big red flag.

[HT_Nut]

Yea, we've both been married twice before. Not just once.

 

However, I wouldn't exactly consider myself any more sucessful than the next guy. I think that's even more reason to have a prenup. I think once you get on the "other side" of life (kids raised, career settled) people should be responsible for their own financial well being. The "rules" need to change a little.

 

Here's a funny stat. I read that, as we all know, the divorce rate is right at 50% for first marriages. But, the divorce rate for couples with a prenup is less than 20%. I think the reason explained is that those that go through the stuggles of negotiating a prenup, and were successful at it, have already learned how to negotiate in a marriage. Let's face it, a prenup is not part of what society considers the ideals of marriage. Meaning, we are supposed to be all caught up in the romance, butterflies etc that we forget that marriage is also a business deal. This isn't something that we wanted, the courts have made it this way. It's a contractural agreement between two individual entities. I think people read gym membership agreements deeper than they do about the laws of marriage. When the marrage fails, they (usually the guy) wonders why they are taken to the cleaners. The laws are written based on the marriage standards of the 1950's. One income, man works, woman raises kids.

Those days are long gone and unfortunately, we have to protect ourselves from the antiquated laws.

 

It's even gone one step further with the "no fault" states. Your wife or husband can bring someone home and screw them on the living room floor right in front of you. Of course you'll leave; but, even with that being the trigger, you are still going to give up quite a bit in court. In New Jersey, if you've been married more than 10 years, it's alimony for life! The courts no longer care who is at fault. All they're concerned about is the property division. In most states, if you have a property settlement agreement signed, you don't even have to go to court; even if you file on grounds. All the courts do now is look at the numbers and the property. If the couple doesn't have a property settlement agreement, the courts decide the division. If you look at State laws, they ain't pretty. To me a prenup is a pre-property settlement agreement made while people are in the love side of marriage. When minds are clear of animosity and all the negative emotions that cloud a divorce action.

 

My G/F always swore she would never take my money if we didn't work out...wouldn't do this....wouldn't do that...blah blah blah; but, when I told her to put her words on paper and sign it, she freaked. Again, I'm not rich. I don't make 6 figures and live in Bergen county. I'm just an average Joe with an average income. What I'm protecting myself against is living in a studio apartment in Newark, making 90k a year, while my then ex is still enjoying her part-time working life at my expense. I've brought myself too far to take any risk of that.

 

Her opinion is that I should trust her, buy into all that love, marriage, romance stuff and blind myself of what could happen. My opinion is that yes I do love her, trust her and that kind of stuff. But that's in the now. People change at the drop of a hat and I'm not willing to take the risk that she will change into something I can't live with 10 years from now.

 

What I'm trying to figure out is: where is her risk. If she married me and I turned into the biggest jack-ass imaginable. What's the worst that can happen to her. She's back to where she is now? She's already there, anything I can do to enhance her life is something that much better for her. If she decides to bring home some guy and screw him in the living room while I'm watching the Superbowl, well, she gave up what I was giving her.

 

I mean, hey, if you have a great job and a great life, you don't walk into work, smack your boss in the mouth, and expect to have that great job anymore; right? :-)

 

 

bluechocolate:

 

Yes she does see it as planning for failure. So do I. But what is wrong with planning for the worst and hoping for the best? That's just a hypothetical, it's not a question directed at you. I know you agree with me.

 

Anyway, I can't remember who coined the phrase : "Those who don't remember the past are condemed to repeat it." So many people see planning for failure as a negative. I really don't. I see it as being a realist, not a pessimist. What's wrong with putting yourself in a situation where you at least already know the worst that could possibly happen? Preparing for that, I think opens your life for more possiblities. If you already know that the worse thing that can happen is that you still have your career; wouldn't you be a bit more adventurous about pursuit of happiness?

 

I mean, c'mon. We buy car insurance for what reason? To protect ourselves if we get in a wreck. But, if we KNEW for sure we were going to get in a wreck; would we even drive? No. We are preparing for the worst. With insurance, you know the worst thing that can happen is whatever your coverage is. With marriage, the worst that can happen is what's in the prenup.

 

It's the same thing to me. Prenup = marriage insurance. :-)

[tiki]

I totally agree. What's wrong with 2 people actually returning to their prior living conditions, financial situations and so on (after divorce)? Why does someone deserve a share of your prior 'havings' just because you got married and it ended? Nah, sign the prenup if you have stuff to lose. I respect you for looking ahead and knowing you will be in the same boat financially with or without her.

[moimeme]

I don't think you're being at all unreasonable. Unfortunately, emotion doesn't usually listen to reason and it sounds as though she's having an emotional reaction as in 'why doesn't he trust me'. If she isn't able to see it more objectively, that in itself may point out a fairly significant difference in attitudes.

 

Why, by the way, don't you just shack up and be done with it? And if you or anybody says anything about cows and milk, I swear I'll scream

[HT_Nut]

"And if you or anybody says anything about cows and milk, I swear I'll scream"

 

Cows are cute, and milk is good with cookies. Are you going to scream now??

 

You're right though. She's all caught up in the emotion, idealism, and that kind of stuff. As tikibrandy said, she doesn't have anything to offer financially so all she has to put into this is the emotion. She doesn't see the financial concern because she doesn't have one. That's all on me.

 

I did talk to her tonight and mentioned this: "If the laws were that no one is EVER entitled to alimony unless it was agreed to before marriage, would your view of a prenup be the same?"

 

Her response:___________________

 

 

Yep, that's right. She had no response. I heard "cricket cricket".

[moimeme]

Cows are cute, and milk is good with cookies. Are you going to scream now??

 

 

"If the laws were that no one is EVER entitled to alimony unless it was agreed to before marriage, would your view of a prenup be the same?"

 

Ah, very wise question. Actually, you have a darn fine idea there. Go get it made into a law, why dontcha?

[HT_Nut]

Ah, very wise question. Actually, you have a darn fine idea there. Go get it made into a law, why dontcha?

 

I would love to; but, I'm not qualified to be in the legislature. Unfortunately, I have a set of nads and common sense. Some of the things I see coming out of State Capitals these days proves that to be in any State legislature, you cannot possibly possess either common sense nor nads.

 

And no, I don't mean "nads" in the biological sense!!! LOL

[niko1999]

Im confused about the whole idea of a pre nup. my boyfreind said he when he gets married, he wants to have a pre nup, becuase he doesnt want to be taken to the cleaners. understandable. But do the terms come to play only in the event of a divorce? Would you still share fincances and whatnot DURING the marriage? Or is it, whats yours is yours, and whats mine is mine? I understand the whole after affect, and I wouldnt be thrilled with signing a prenup, but you bring up a good point at the whole insurance thing. But Im just confused on the idea of one is all.

[HT_Nut]

A prenup is whatever you want it to be. I've read books that deal with examples and in's and out's etc. Some even have agreements as to who mops the kitchen floor on what days.

 

Besides having an agreement on what happens if the marriage fails; it also puts a couple into a negotiation mode. There is so much "expected" during the marriage and with those expectations comes disappointment when what is "expected" doesn't happen.

 

There is a lot of good that happens when you discuss a prenup and the discussion often leads to opening up areas that have not been discussed. Those things don't have to be in a prenup; but often they come out during the negotiation. In other words, the talks spiderweb into other things.

 

For example: the future wife may bring up "If we divorce, I want it written that you will pay a percentage of your earnings to a college fund for the kids." then the guy comes back with "What the hell do you mean KIDS? I only want one kid." Then they start talking about that issue. "What do you mean you only want 1 kid; I want 8!" Get the drift? The idea is not only about divorce; it's about how you are going to run your married life and making sure you see eye to eye on finances, children, retirement, living conditions, empoyment etc. It isn't romantic at all but the experience clears up a lot of issues you assume are not issues right now. Of course, it can also open a can of worms too. But, wouldn't you want to know that you agree with your betrothed now, rather than find out you disagree 10 years down the road?

[magda]

So Nut, wouldn't it be better if you'd have written it out with herinstead of "don't call me 'til y ou sign it". Maybe she has something she'd like to add. Wouldn't you like negotiation practice.

[HT_Nut]

Magda,

 

As I mentioned the only two things I want are what I mentioned. My salary and 1/2 of any equity. I think that's more than fair and honestly, that's my bottom line. But when she reacted the way she did and absolutely REFUSED to even talk about it, I figured there was no need to continue a relationship if it wasn't going to go to marriage. How can you negotiate something with someone who refuses to even acknowlede the concept?

 

So yes, she has my bottom line. She can accept that or not. But it's just that, my bottom line. Why even try to negotiate something less if that something less is not acceptable to me? She can add, negotiate, whatever to it. But then that would turn into a negotiation. But at this point, a prenup itself in unacceptable to her. So, in a way, she's already given me her terms on a prenup. As far as I'm concerned, it's a negotiation that ended in a non agreement. Such is life; it happens everyday.

[magda]

How do you know it would be less?

 

All you say is that you "mentioned" a prenupt agreement I wonder what you said. Anyway, don't marry her now - you're too scared she's out to swindle you so she can continue her "part time life".

 

I certainly support prenup agreements... but you do realize it was going to be a marraige right? Do you love her at all? I mean, you sound way unemotional about the whole thing which is good in a way, but I wouldn't be all that thrilled with marrying you either just because of your attitude that you do't give a ****.

[HT_Nut]

Uh, ok.

 

If she is unaccepting of what I proposed, that means what I proposed is too much for her. Sooo, if it's too much for her then she is thinking it should be less. Less is not acceptable to me.

 

Scared? You betcha! Take a look at the laws on the books these days. Anyone in my situation would be silly not to protect what he's worked his whole life for; and this person wasn't even around to help during the times I was surviving on taco's and tomato soup to get through school. I don't mind sharing it with someone I'm with. But I'll be damned if I have to give it to someone for life if they leave.

 

Secondly, I don't think she's out to swindle me, now. But no one knows what their "person" is going to be in a few years. People change, attitudes change. I've been around long enough to see it time and time again. As I said before, a prenup is insurance against those changes. Besides, words are words. If a person claims "I will never do______________ to you" in words; then they should have no problem putting that on paper. The simple fact that she so opposes putting her words on paper causes me alarm. If you went to an attorney that promised winning you a million dollar lawsuit if you give him a $5,000 retainer; and then the attorney refused to put that promise on paper, would you give him the retainer anyway?

 

Do I love her? Of course. But this is a marriage breaker. Why would I continue in this relationship if it isn't going to go where I would like it to go? Without this, it won't. Oh, I've been way emotional about this early on; but lately, I've detatched from the emotion to be able to stand my ground on what I believe in. Too many times people think with their hearts and their brains are ignored. That's when you get into trouble situations. I said earlier, the courts have done this to marriage. They've made it not about love or romance; they've turned it into a business deal. Unfortunately, my heart hurts over this; but love is love and business is business. When the two intermingle, it's nothing but trouble. But one cannot ignore that there is a huge business side of this.

 

People always talk about guys thinking with their "other" head. On this, I'm thinking with the "head" that makes good decisions. Sucks, but that's the way it is.

[befuddled11]

I almost sense some resentment on your part, about her ONLY working part time and you working full time. You've seemed to indicate that her choice to work only part time is so that she can also be there for her children. What's wrong with that? I say "right on" to Moms who don't put money before raising their children. There's too many kids out there growing up being raised in day cares, while their parents make the almighty buck.

 

Now, and this is very pertinent to your situation.......what ages are her children? Are they at ages such that if she DID work full time, she'd have to put them in after school or day care? And how many children does she have??

 

Was she working part time or full time when you met her?

 

Do you think there's some deep seated resentment there toward the fact that by your standards, her life "seems" quite cushy..in that, she only has to work part time, while you're out there working full time? Do you think THIS might really be the crux of the issue?? (and what's prompted you to consider a prenup)

 

I didn't read anywhere about you being in love with her, or believing she's someone you'd want to spend the rest of your life with. Instead, all I read is your "focus" on the materialistic aspects of marrying her. Do you even love her? Can you accept HER children as if they were your own, or are you going to resent them because "your" money is going to end up going to support them (clothe, feed, put through college one day, etc)?

 

Frankly, just based on what I've read, I think you should have put a little more thought, maybe, into how you felt about all this prior to getting involved with someone who's got kids that aren't grown up like yours. I get the impression that you think maybe she's just lazy or taking you for a free ride because she's being a "housewife" and for the most part, a stay at home Mom. Maybe you'd be better off with someone who's more in your position......whose kids are grown up ?

 

And what constitutes her "part time" job? What defines "part time" can vary a lot. Some part time jobs are 1 day a week. Some are 4 days a week (not quite full time, which would be 5 days a week).

 

A lot of Moms feel very guilty working full time.

 

So what's really the issue here?

[winterwonderland]

Personally I don't believe in prenups. I guess I feel it is like an insurance policy for me. If he cheats, I get to get him back through his pocket book. Only fair.

[bluechocolate]

Originally posted by winterwonderland

Personally I don't believe in prenups. I guess I feel it is like an insurance policy for me. If he cheats, I get to get him back through his pocket book. Only fair.

 

But you see a prenup can contain just that sort of thing. It's not just an insurance policy for him.

 

Catherine Zeta-Jones & Michael Douglas' prenup is structured such that if he cheats on her & she walks away with zillions precisely because she knew about his philandering in the past!

 

It can work both ways.

[HT_Nut]

Befuddled,

 

In one of my earlier posts, I did say to the forum I do love her. Of course I do, otherwise I wouldn't even think of marrying her. This thread is, again, about the financial side of it all.

 

I love her kids and we all have a great relationship. All of us get along really well. Right now, her kids are 12 and 17; and no, there is no resentment on my part about her wanting to work part time.

Her words to me were "I'm tired and I want someone to take care of me". This came just a couple of months ago. She does work full time now. But along with that statement and her quite outspoken opposition to even the mention of a prenup; flags went up.

Of course I understand that taking care of the house is a job in itself; but with both of us working full time, we could hire someone. Besides, as the months went on, I see how she keeps house. :-) So I would much rather her continue in her career and let a professional take care of the house. But, if she wants to work part-time; who cares?

But, when I say it's "her choice" it is exactly that. If she chooses to stay home and not maintain her job skills, that's on her. I'll financially support that decision. But what happens if something happens to me? What happens if she turns into something I can't deal with? The courts go by what she was making when they set alimony. She chose not to work and that's on me if we divorced? She chose to make no money and I supported her. Again, I'm 42 and she's 37. It's not like we went through the building of our lives together. They're already built. Do I resent her for being able to work part time? No, not at all. In fact, my job is pretty much part time as well. I work at home as a field engineer. My boss is 1000 miles away and I travel all over the world. On average I actually work about 20 hours a week but make close to 6 figures. I'm not bragging, I'm just putting the "cushy life thing" in perspective. How could I resent anyone for having a cushy life when my life is already there? If anything, I would say the resentment would be the other way around since she works a 9 - 5 in an office and I'm traveling the world and playing golf all day. That's one of the reasons I don't have a problem with her working part time. It's all about being happy and frankly, the 9 - 5 thing sucks!!! But, again, she gets that life while she's with me. Not after.

 

 

winterwonderland:

 

 

 

 

 

If he cheats, I get to get him back through his pocket book. Only fair.

 

And, if YOU cheat you get to get him through his pocket book. That's what's unfair about it!

 

Thanks for making my point!

[Hexenturm]

I don't see why people are so floored at the suggestion of a prenup. My fiance and I have one and I think it is great and alterable at any time before or after the marriage. I think every couple should have one. Marriage isn't just romance, doves, and an expensive wedding. It is a serious legal arrangement between two people and if people aren't ready to discuss and accept the possible outcomes of the legal marriage through a prenup, then they just aren't ready to marry.

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by bluechocolate

Catherine Zeta-Jones & Michael Douglas' prenup is structured such that if he cheats on her & she walks away with zillions precisely because she knew about his philandering in the past!

Who the hell would cheat on Catherine Zeta-Jones?

[StartingAgain]

Spousal support (alimony) rules vary from state to state, but in most, it is very hard to be awarded spousal support anymore. You state one of the reasons: when a spouse stays at home, gives up a career, etc. There are other reasons she may be awarded support; e.g., for education or job training, compensation for loss of income derived from professional degrees earned by the husband while married (i.e., wife supports hubby while he goes to medical school and then he dumps her). In most states, the old idea of monthy alimony being paid to a wife until she dies or remarries is pretty much a thing of the past.

 

Of course she screams when you suggest a prenup. How anti-romantic! BUT if you live in a community property state, the minute you say "I do" 50% of everything you own or ever will own becomes hers. If you have or will receive inheritances or have accumulated significant assests prior to marriage, you would be a fool to marry in a community property state without a prenuptual agreement in place. Even if you marry in an equitable division state, but then move to a community property state, all assets acquired from the date you become domiscile in the community property state become subject to the 50-50 split. Calculation of property division can become quite complex and attorney's fees can be very high. Even in an equitable division state, the man usually has to pay out the nose in a divorce.

 

For some women, the idea of a prenup is offensive because it suggest a lack of trust. For others, they are thinking "this man is flush! One way or the other, I'm set for life! sweet......" Many will think it a good idea, since it can protect their rights and prevent a costly court battle should the marriage fail.

 

Prenups generally don't just address property division should the marriage fail. They often also outline expectations and the "rules" of the marriage. They are contracts. They cover such things like whether or not children are expected, prohibitions against infidelity, withholding sex, division of responsibilities, whether or not the wife ill work, etc. Seems to me that these are things a couple should have nailed out before marriage anyway, so not only is a prenup a good idea from a legal perspective, but it also is a great way to assure that both partners are on the same page about what is expected from the marriage.

[thecake]

My ex-fiancée and I broke up over MANY reasons but the nail in the coffin was because he wouldn't sign a prenup for me. He was a decade older than me, had young kids, child support, some debt and he was hoping I'd help him…I would have if he’d signed the prenup. I'm 31, single (divorced), no kids, good job, very financially stable, partially due to an inheritance. He had the same reaction as the woman you're involved with. And, it does open your eyes to someone's true intentions. He turned it all around on me saying I didn’t trust him, I’d offended him and he couldn’t marry someone who is already making plans for a divorce. We broke up two weeks after that conversation. I really loved this guy and was devastated, but I have to protect myself financially. I think if he’d really loved me he wouldn’t have had a problem with it.

[morrigan]

I think StartingOver is right--some states still would consider a house "community property" even if you had purchased and paid for the house years before you married. Without a prenup, you'd be saying goodbye to what you had worked for. A friend of mine owns and operates a farm, he's not interested in getting married for various reasons, partly because if the marriage did end in divorce, he'd probably end up being forced to sell the property and splitting the proceeds.

 

I don't have a problem with prenups, especially when the couple has separate finances and does not plan on having children together. I think some people would be worried about lack of trust factor, but I think a prenup shows a good amount of reality, especially if you already have children and you plan on giving them your property/finances someday.

 

If someone has this much of an issue about the prenup before the marriage, I'd personally reconsider the wedding.

[InmannRoshi]

Its the most important contract you'll ever enter into in your entire life. I don't see why both parties wouldn't want to come into it with pre-negotiated parameters.