Naomi Wolf on the Porn Myth

[coffeecat]

I am posting this here instead of the sexuality forum because I think it it is more relevant to married couples. It's a good article to discuss:

 

http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/

[Woggle]

This sounds like the female version of men who are threatened by women that can earn their own money.

[coffeecat]

Which part?

 

This part?

 

"For how can a real woman—with pores and her own breasts and even sexual needs of her own (let alone with speech that goes beyond “More, more, you big stud!”)—possibly compete with a cybervision of perfection, downloadable and extinguishable at will, who comes, so to speak, utterly submissive and tailored to the consumer’s least specification?"

[Woggle]

It sounds like she is threatened that men can now have options outside of twisting themselves into knots for a woman who might not give anything anyway.

 

For years men have been hearing how much women don't need us and how we are obsolete and disposable and now that more and more men are finding a way to get our needs met that doesn't involved actually interacting with a woman they are threatened.

 

No sane man will choose porn over a woman that is truly worth it but many are tired of breaking their backs for a woman that just craps all over them. If women don't need us why do they even get mad at men who look at porn?

[coffeecat]

I see. It sounds like you actually agree, ( for the most part), on the article's conclusions.

[Woggle]

I see. It sounds like you actually agree, ( for the most part), on the article's conclusions.

 

I agree but if you ask me I want to see some concessions from women and then we could talk about porn. If this were a man complaining about vibrators he would be called insecure and accused of trying to control a woman's sexuality.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

At a benefit the other night, I saw Andrea Dworkin...

 

 

Was she lying in state?????

 

 

I am posting this here

 

 

You should have shown the good common sense to post it in 1997.

[BeyondtheClouds]

I'll go read that link and we'll see if Ms. Wolf can change my mind.

 

My guy watches porn from time to time. Particularly when he wasn't dating anyone. I think that's a good thing. Far better than if the guy goes down to the pub, picks up a chick and then risks, let's see, getting an STD; knocking someone up he really doesn't know; being accused of date rape.

 

My guy thinks I'm hot despite his porn watching habits and really cares about pleasing me in bed.

 

What's not to like here.

 

 

I'll go read the link and see if that rabbel rouser can change my mind.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I knew as soon as I saw Naomi Wolf what I'd be reading, but she articulated her thoughts well and there certainly is some truth in what she writes. To think how much more accessible and easy to find it is in 2011.

 

Woggle too surprisingly made an interesting point.

 

Where I stand, not sure. Is there too much access, too extreme and over-sexualized porn available? Yes, without a doubt. Are some men desensitized and would rather view porn then the real thing, the excitement and mystery removed? Yes.....

 

A good read....

[findingnemo]

I honestly don't get this whole anti-porn thing. Apart from a man getting addicted, what's the problem?

 

She says that "real women are just bad porn". What does she mean? That real women are not as beautiful as porn stars? Maybe it's because I'm a woman but I find porn stars to be either grotesquely ugly (the fake hair, the all so fake boobs that show obvious signs of defying gravity and more) or very normal when they are young and fit. How come campus girls feel threatened by porn stars? There's all sorts of things out there in the world of pornography. Fat chicks, thin chicks, triple FFF breasts and no breasts, beautiful teeth and none in some cases. We women have failed to understand that men look at us very differently from the way we look at ourselves. We look at the whole package while men tend to zero in on certain parts they like. Nature probably designed this so that we could all attract somebody.

 

What about the men in porn movies? Six packs, unbelievably huge tools...that go on and on and on. How come women aren't having the same reactions as men? Why isn't there a fear that real men are bad porn?

 

Yes, there is an obsession with obtaining the perfect body. However that is probably due to the movie and fashion industry. The unbelievable bodies of movie stars are IMO worse in terms of deadening anybody's libido when faced with a real person. But this is being fought. There are several websites showing real women's bodies - their boobs, stomachs after childbirth, etc. Most of the women who submit photos have husbands or boyfriends. As for the majority of women, I believe that we put pressure on ourselves to look one way or the other. We point out to our men constantly what is wrong with us. Well, you know what, our men once told repeatedly that our thighs are ugly will begin to believe it.

 

I come from one of those cultures where respectable women are expected to cover up. Not head gear or anything but long skirts and dresses, no strapless stuff etc. Modesty is important. But you know what, the men are hornier than ever. They can pretty much tell if there might be something they like underneath all that. The modesty is not because our cultures discovered that sex should be kept a mystery. It's because men want to keep their women away from other men. It's about inequality period.

[The Blue Knight]

I found the paragraphs and comments from the article below rather interesting. I think the author is accurate in many respects and she makes some excellent points.

 

Yes, having access to pornography 24-7 no doubt dilutes and waters down sex for a large host of people. I think we've seen the wives and girlfriends here on loveshack who have posted similar complaints about their non-existent male half's.

 

To me, it's not a fair thing for women to try to live up what's displayed in every day pornography anymore than it is for a woman to expect ever man to be sporting a 12" member. After all, the woman in the porn video is making $500 to $2000 per porn act depending on what she's willing to do on film. She can act like she's enjoying it, but I seriously doubt that that's the case.

 

I'm a man and I can't even relate to some of what I see in pornography. I don't get the semen shots in women's faces or some of the more grotesque par-takings that these couples engage in. I mean, what two consenting adults do voluntarily is their biz. Not only is a lot of what I've viewed absolutely degrading to women, I think it paints a very inaccurate portrayal of sex for young males who are viewing it and therein lies a very big problem down the road.

 

And I still do consider the missionary position a turn-on since it's the most intimate of positions. I mean, some position changes are wonderful, and some spice thrown in here and there is great, but where did all these other "odd" acts come from?

 

My other concern is that I think some of the more violent acts in porn films just feed into those with deviant sex offender tendencies. My belief is that violent sexual acts on film should be banned for that reason. We're feeding into the appetite of monsters in our society. But that's a different subject entirely.

 

I'm probably one of the "odd males" because I'd rather watch pornography in the form of a deeply romantic sexual interaction between two lovers than watch some guy toss a woman around like she's an fleshy object to be screwed in 576 different ways. But that's me. Maybe I'm weird.

 

My concern with pornography is the same concern I have with society in general. We suffer from a cultural two-pronged attack.

 

1. We need instant gratification in whatever we seek. People have little patience today. Everything is based on the fast-food philosophy. "I need it NOW!!"

 

2. We've been able to detach ourselves from deeper interpersonal relationships due to overwhelming advances in technology.

 

Cell phones, text messaging, internet, email, facebook, loveshack, my space, etc, are all examples of ways in which we can now interact in these guarded cyber-relationships rather than real flesh and blood. As much as I like to read postings and participate here on loveshack, I balance it out and walk away for a couple days at a time. I enjoy the give and take, but it's my REAL relationships in everyday life that I cherish.

 

Growing up I can remember you had generally three ways to communicate. Phone, mail, or in person. Today, that's not the case and this has affected our culture (in America at least) in some very negative ways I believe. Porn was no different. You had to have a friend who was able to steal a magazine from his Dad's stash. It was rare to view porn when I was a kid growing up.

 

Similar to pornography, I see people I know who are constantly viewing their cell phone or who can't set the blasted thing down. They are always looking at it. It's the first thing they do when they get up and it's one of the last things they do before going to bed. Oftentimes, they are texting, or they are always on the internet now that it fits into the palm of their hands. Even when a flesh and blood person is sitting their chatting and having coffee with them they'll seldom look you in the eye if they have a cell phone with all the gadgets and gizmos. This is not only rude behavior, it's an example of our changing culture.

 

It's not just sex that should be a concern. It's society as a whole.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

For two decades, I have watched young women experience the continual “mission creep” of how pornography—and now Internet pornography—has lowered their sense of their own sexual value and their actual sexual value. When I came of age in the seventies, it was still pretty cool to be able to offer a young man the actual presence of a naked, willing young woman. There were more young men who wanted to be with naked women than there were naked women on the market. If there was nothing actively alarming about you, you could get a pretty enthusiastic response by just showing up. Your boyfriend may have seen Playboy, but hey, you could move, you were warm, you were real. Thirty years ago, simple lovemaking was considered erotic in the pornography that entered mainstream consciousness: When Behind the Green Door first opened, clumsy, earnest, missionary-position intercourse was still considered to be a huge turn-on.

 

Well, I am 40, and mine is the last female generation to experience that sense of sexual confidence and security in what we had to offer. Our younger sisters had to compete with video porn in the eighties and nineties, when intercourse was not hot enough. Now you have to offer—or flirtatiously suggest—the lesbian scene, the ejaculate-in-the-face scene. Being naked is not enough; you have to be buff, be tan with no tan lines, have the surgically hoisted breasts and the Brazilian bikini wax—just like porn stars. (In my gym, the 40-year-old women have adult pubic hair; the twentysomethings have all been trimmed and styled.) Pornography is addictive; the baseline gets ratcheted up. By the new millennium, a vagina—which, by the way, used to have a pretty high “exchange value,” as Marxist economists would say—wasn’t enough; it barely registered on the thrill scale. All mainstream porn—and certainly the Internet—made routine use of all available female orifices.

 

People are not closer because of porn but further apart; people are not more turned on in their daily lives but less so.

 

The young women who talk to me on campuses about the effect of pornography on their intimate lives speak of feeling that they can never measure up, that they can never ask for what they want; and that if they do not offer what porn offers, they cannot expect to hold a guy.

 

So Dworkin was right that pornography is compulsive, but she was wrong in thinking it would make men more rapacious. A whole generation of men are less able to connect erotically to women—and ultimately less libidinous.

 

The reason to turn off the porn might become, to thoughtful people, not a moral one but, in a way, a physical- and emotional-health one; you might want to rethink your constant access to porn in the same way that, if you want to be an athlete, you rethink your smoking. The evidence is in: Greater supply of the stimulant equals diminished capacity.

 

“For the first time in human history, the images’ power and allure have supplanted that of real naked women. Today, real naked women are just bad porn.”

 

After all, pornography works in the most basic of ways on the brain: It is Pavlovian. An orgasm is one of the biggest reinforcers imaginable. If you associate orgasm with your wife, a kiss, a scent, a body, that is what, over time, will turn you on; if you open your focus to an endless stream of ever-more-transgressive images of cybersex slaves, that is what it will take to turn you on. The ubiquity of sexual images does not free eros but dilutes it.

 

Other cultures know this. I am not advocating a return to the days of hiding female sexuality, but I am noting that the power and charge of sex are maintained when there is some sacredness to it, when it is not on tap all the time. In many more traditional cultures, it is not prudery that leads them to discourage men from looking at pornography. It is, rather, because these cultures understand male sexuality and what it takes to keep men and women turned on to one another over time—to help men, in particular, to, as the Old Testament puts it, “rejoice with the wife of thy youth; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times.” These cultures urge men not to look at porn because they know that a powerful erotic bond between parents is a key element of a strong family.

[linwood]

I agree with the article and even agree with the phenomenon it speaks about.

 

Vagina has always been over valued in my opinion.

Usually by the women carrying them

[findingnemo]

I agree with the article and even agree with the phenomenon it speaks about.

 

Vagina has always been over valued in my opinion.

Usually by the women carrying them

 

:lmao:

[BeyondtheClouds]

 

What about the men in porn movies? Six packs, unbelievably huge tools...that go on and on and on. How come women aren't having the same reactions as men? Why isn't there a fear that real men are bad porn?

 

 

I agree with this and I wonder if women are sometimes part of the problem......though feminists polemicists who are well paid for their essays would never agree.

 

Let's look at an example which may not be too unusual: As I mentioned, my guy admitted to me that he looked at porn a lot through the lean years of his romantic life. And for the reasons above, I think he made the right choice.

 

I learned from him that before he met me and for a couple of months that we started dating, he was dating a 29 year old woman. So 11 years younger than he (21 years younger than I).

 

(Just to even the score here, he did tell her some rather intimate things about us at a time when she was charading as his "friend" as it seems that young women do often these days.........I also know that she used some of that information he gave her as reasons for him to stop dating me)

 

He told me that they had attempted sex 3 times and he could never get hard enough "to finish." He went on to explain that he had quite often masturbated to porn so often that he could ejaculate without even being fully hard.

 

He told me that this (20 something) woman was completely upset about it. Think about the performance issues that men have particularly now that we women are more experienced including in numbers of different partners. It really annoys me to see women, many of them younger, making the final blow....."he probably has a small dick anyway."

 

But what on earth was this woman bringing to the table. By her own admission, she was hoping to "loose (sic) 50 pounds before turning 30." Now think about it. Someone at the age of 30 who is ALREADY 50 pounds overweight....at a time when their metabolism is slowing down and well before they even have children. Maybe she will eventually "loose (sic)" that weight sometime in her life. But I know that she didn't by the time of her 30th b-day.

 

Some men are chubby chasers --I will give the feminists that --but not all of them. And what I find interesting on some of these message boards, is this quest to make men like what they do not like. That is, to shame them into preferring what is known today as the "curvy" woman......despite women having a laundry list as to what is the ideal man for them.

Edited December 17, 2011 by BeyondtheClouds

[Woggle]

I am starting to realize that porn makes women feel the same way the I don't need a man movement makes men feel. It makes them feel disposable and not desired by men the same way the I don't need a man movement makes men feel.

 

I ask that if some women don't need men and feel they are better off without us in their lives why do they even care if we look at porn? Why are they so concerned with what men do when they don't even want us around?

[Negative Nancy]

I am starting to realize that porn makes women feel the same way the I don't need a man movement makes men feel. It makes them feel disposable and not desired by men the same way the I don't need a man movement makes men feel.

 

that's exactly it.

[Woggle]

that's exactly it.

 

Why is it that men are considered whiny and afraid of strong women if we say what we feel but when women complain about feeling disposable people listen to them.

 

It's not right either but respect has to be a two way street.

[frozensprouts]

not being any kind of expert on pornography ( i don't watch it, as , to me, it's absolutely asinine, and i don't understand how anyone can take it seriously), my biggest problem with it is that it seems to have played a part in how people (men and women) view sex, and it reinforces the negative stereotypes about men/women that are out there.

 

It's almost like the "emotional" aspect of sex between two people who love each other is being forsaken for the thrill of the physical act, in and of itself. It seems to devalue sex and make it into just another form of recreation and not an act of bonding between two people.

 

I will readily admit that for a long time I had a really skewed perception of men and sex, and it took a long time to change that. I fI had seen the pornography that seem so prevalent today, I think that it would certainly of reinforced my negative view, which is sad. I suppose that if one already has a "healthy" idea of sex between two real people and what is can mean, then pornography isn't always a bad thing, as long as they remember it's not real and the people are paid to act the way they do, just like any other actor/actress.

 

and I know, just from my time on the internet, that the amount of "barely legal" and "teen" pornography out there is really disturbing... i hope that many of the women in it are of legal age, but i can't say that i like the idea it puts out there.

 

( mind you, i don't claim to be any kind of expert here..like i said, to me, pornography seems really silly, but that's just me )

[sailorwoman]

I am starting to realize that porn makes women feel the same way the I don't need a man movement makes men feel. It makes them feel disposable and not desired by men the same way the I don't need a man movement makes men feel.

 

?

 

Actually it also makes us feel HORNY because the men who frequently view this stuff eventually have a low libido!

 

During the increasingly infrequent occasion that those men do have sex, we feel soar because he has difficulty orgasming. In addition we feel physically and emotionally unsatisfied because those men learn from porn to treat their woman like an object. This behavior causes them to generally suck in bed.

 

And we eventually feel even more horny and frusted when those men eventually give themselves ED from all their porn consumption!

 

 

Conclusions from scientific studies - Porn's physical effect on the brain:

http://www.salvomag.com/new/articles...3/13hilton.php

 

http://yourbrainonporn.com/

Edited December 18, 2011 by sailorwoman

[Woggle]

I seriously doubt that porn gives men ED.

[sailorwoman]

Wobble,

I think you may change your mind if you check out this website:

http://yourbrainonporn.com/erectile-dysfunction-and-porn

It contains a 40 minute video on how porn causes ED. It discusses the physiology of an erection and your brain. It gives a scientific perspective on how porn causes ED via the physical changes porn use causes in one's brain.