Why am I punished for setting boundaries?

[writergal]

I've posted in this forum before about being estranged from my brother and his wife and their children. This year I decided not to participate in Christmas Eve at either my sister or mother's house because my brother and his wife and their children will be there. The thought of having to sit through four hours of celebration with a family who already treats me like the family scapegoat, doesn't appeal to me.

 

My cousin invited me to her house for Christmas Eve this year and I accepted. She knows about my brother's estrangement from me and totally supports me. When I told my mother that I didn't feel like being "fake" for the sake of my niece and nephews this year by attending Christmas Eve with my family members, she told me I was "acting like a 12 year old." Talk about no respect for my boundaries.

 

When I emailed my sister that I probably wouldn't participate in Christmas Eve this year due to the estrangement with our brother, I added in my email that it's a boundary issue for me and I wrote that I didn't feel like being fake for the sake of her children who will find out eventually that their aunt and uncle hate each other. Her response to my email has been to give me the silent treatment (her weapon of choice since we were kids, which she uses whenever she gets mad).

 

I feel guilty about canceling because my sister has been a rock of support for me this semester when I hit rock bottom with some personal issues. But I also want to protect myself emotionally and Christmas Eve is just one night. Right?

 

But I just remembered something. My sister tells her children to lie to me about the times they spend with our brother and his kids. Example: The week after my brother's youngest son had a birthday I saw my sister and her kids. When I asked her 5 year old son if he went to any birthdays that week, he lied and said no! And it was the way he paused, looked at me funny, stuttered then said "no, no birthdays" then ran off towards my sister. That's when I realized she's having her kids lie and I'm not sure what that accomplishes other than to have her kids be pawns in our family drama which isn't fair to them, and is really passive aggressive on her part. It's like she would rather perpetuate my scapegoat role in the family through her children than tell them the truth that sometimes family members doesn't like each other. I have no idea what she's told them and I've tried to pry them for information but they're loyal to their mother, my sister, of course, being her children.

 

I don't understand why I have to feel guilty. And it's really sh*tty that my mother would be so disrespectful of my personal boundaries. It's like the estrangement is my fault (it's both my brother and my fault) and so they blame me rather than respect my boundaries. I'm 40 for god sake. I don't need to participate in a holiday event where I would feel worse than I already do about my life. And I think it's selfish of my family to expect me to show up, put on a fake smile and pretend everything with our family is fine when it's quite the opposite. I guess I posted this looking for feedback (not validation necessarily because I refuse to cave in and go to Christmas Eve just to keep up appearances for my niece and nephews sakes. They need to know the truth and the sooner the better.)

Edited December 15, 2011 by writergal

[Tayla]

So why are you allowing someone that you crossed off your christmas list to dictate your life choices?? You do understand that when you make a choice and stick to it that some reprecussions will be met with angst? As you politely pointed out, You are 40 and can surely be merry without the family drama. My hope for you is simple, be with those you love this season...and give your blood family no mind.

[writergal]

Tayla so what exactly are you saying? That I should force myself to be with my family on Christmas Eve? No thanks. You clearly have a different opinion but that's fine. And it's obvious you've never been in my situation either. You have no idea what it's like to be a family scapegoat or what the repercussions of that is. To each his own.

[setsenia]

I think what Tayla meant was "be with those you love and pay your blood family no mind." Meaning be with those who are supportive of you and not necessarily your blood relatives if they treat you so badly.

 

My husband has a similar situation. He's 28 and his mother and stepfather have always treated him like a scapegoat. They only wanted him in their lives whenever it was convenient for them. We had to make "appointments" to see them. The stepfather would open his mail and make it difficult for him to get it. In the last 4 years, it seems like they aren't talking half the time. It took them disowning us over facebook to realize how toxic they are and that they will never change. His mom was diagnosed with cancer nearly two years ago and when she went into remission, she tossed us aside like used trash. I think we realized that having them in our lives did more harm than good. They are hypocritical, narcissistic and have no regrets. It's really too bad his biological father passed away.

[KathyM]

You have a right to spend Christmas where you wish. It's your choice. Don't allow other people to strong arm you to do something you don't want to do. I would suggest, however, that you not involve the children in this family feud. It's really not fair to them to be questioning them or involving them in your disputes with your siblings. If you can't get along with your brother, then minimize contact with him. Don't make your sister choose sides between the two of you. She also has a choice of whom she wants to spend time, and does not have to answer to you about it. She may choose to try to keep the peace, and to try to get along with everyone. She has a right to make that choice for herself and her children.

[Eve]

I don't think it is good to get the kids involved. When I fell out with my siblings I never told my children in any great detail why we had fallen out. This preserved their relationship with their aunts, uncles and with their cousins. Funny, it was through my siblings supporting my daughter when she went through her naughty phase that we were able to finally put the past in the past.

 

If you are near enough, pop in to see your parents on Christmas Eve morning or something. Stand by your decison but don't expect others to do the same, otherwise you will just get eaten up with frustrations.

 

I have one sister who I still do not get on with but I will still go to family functions and it doesn't effect me now. Took a while to get to this stage but you get there eventually.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[LoveTKO]

@Writergal..you are doing the right thing and stick to your guns. Think of it this way: if these people weren't family members you wouldn't even bat an eye hanging out with them for Christmas, so just because they're family doesn't give them the right to guilt and manipulate you into spending "the holidays" in some toxic environment you don't really want to be part of.

 

I'm in the same situation with my mom clamoring about me taking a six hour flight to hang out with a sibling for Christmas who I can't stand to be around. She's so ignorant because she only sees it through a mother's eyes, and doesn't have the ability to see my side of reality. This sibling's protracted life drama for the last decade has affected the whole family because of her manipulative ways; my mom, however, gives her a free pass for the sake of "the family". I've noticed that when parents get old they lose all common sense....it's really sad how loneliness obfuscates clear thinking abilities.

[LoveTKO]

Your mother is always your mother. Your sister your sister, etc. You say that your issue isn't with either of them but with your brother.

 

Just about every family since the beginning of time has had some weird dynamics. I attend family get togethers for the sake of those I love rather than 'not attend' and thus have my action governed by a flaky sister I can't stand.

 

If the srtress is too much for you then that's a reason to stay away. However, at 40 you should have the coping skills to dig down deep and put up with a bit of crap for those you lover. '4 hours'...??? My mother is sure worth 4 hours of me putting up with anything.

 

 

I do agree with you on this one. My dynamics are different since all my siblings live anywhere from a six to 10 hour flight apart, so family gatherings involve staying in a packed house for about a week. No, thank you very much.....no amount of coping skill, Xanax, Ambien, and Zoloft are going to calm my nerves in a powder-keg environment having to listen to my sister's "woe is me" stories for days on end.

[writergal]

Martinman: I completely disagree with your argument that I should have coping skills by now to put up with a bit of crap by the age of 40. You have NO idea what toxic environment my family situation is like at family holiday gatherings. You are very short sighted to make such a generalized statement without knowing me personally, or how mentally ill my mother is. I'd rather spend a pleasant 4 hours trapped in an elevator in the dark than spend 4 hours listening to my mother rant and criticize every little thing about me.

 

Like LoveTKO said, no amount of sedatives is enough protection for me to put myself in the line of dysfunctional fire for 4-5 hours of one day. Christmas is already a horrible holiday for me as it reminds me of my father's death from cancer.

 

I can see why you Martinman would think 4-5 hours is no big deal but that's your perspective. I don't think my choosing to have boundaries means that I'm letting my effing brother dictate my actions. It means I'm consciously choosing NOT to put myself in a situation for one day which isn't necessary.

 

To have to spend 5 hours max trapped in a small 2 bedroom apartment with my mother, sister and brother and their families is nothing short of emotional torture. First of all, they will ignore me and I'll be left to entertain my niece and nephews, in addition to being criticized and insulted by my mother for anything and everything I do.

 

Both my sister and brother have full-time jobs, children, live in nice homes and life is hunky dory for them. Meanwhile, I'm struggling to support myself while i finish my last year of graduate school, which means weekly visits to my local food shelf, visits to the free medical clinic, and being rejected for state food stamps because i don't work enough hours. I can barely support myself as a 40 year old graduate student. Why do you think I would want to put myself in the hot seat at a Christmas Eve gathering where I'm ignored, and forced to listen to my siblings brag to each other about "my kid did this," or "we just went on this amazing vacation to..." to "you'll have to see my new car."

 

No thanks. Me, a food shelf-ham, canned yams, and vegetables with a DVD of my favorite movie at home in my apartment is how I plan to spend my Christmas Eve. It's just one day. I'd rather be alone than spend it with people who don't even like me.

[setsenia]

I know what you mean, Writergal. My husband's mom and stepdad barely make an effort to be a part our lives and it's painfully obvious they only do so when they feel obligated, such as a birthday or holiday and that's it. Even then, they hardly speak to us, make no effort to inquire about what's going on in our lives or to even show an interest. We hardly see them, but they act as if we see them everyday. Forget it, they aren't worth seeing on holidays either. We can find better things to do with our time at home than sit at their house and be ignored the enitre time while they talk to everyone else except us. My husband actually never had holidays with them when he was younger until his dad passed away and was god forbid, forced to live with these people. But now that we're married, we have other places we can go to and people who want to visit us. They aren't even worth the time.

[writergal]

Hi Setsina,

 

It sounds like your husband has the same issues with his family that I have with mine. You are both SO LUCKY to have each other and not have to deal with his clearly dysfunctional family.

 

My sister helped our brother find his current 3-figure job. Me? She lets me babysit my niece and nephews for a pittance which is a blow to my ego. So that's my issue, not hers of course. I feel like a complete loser. This is not life I imagined for myself when I was ten years old. It's not like I sat down one day in fourth grade and thought, "You know. When I grow up, I want to be nearly homeless, broke, bad credit and completely alone and effed up. Gee I can't wait!"

 

Not that it's my sister's responsibility to find me a job. I just bring up what she did for our brother as an example of the interpersonal dynamics. Those two are two peas in a pod, and I'm the lost child, the scapegoat, the outsider who lives off food shelf weekly handouts, with ruined credit, 100K student loans, living week to week and never socializing because 1) I have no money and 2) I'm antisocial because I'm depressed about having no money.

 

My sister's nice to me out of pity more than anything. We get along but on a very detached, superficial surface-level. She never shares anything personal with me about herself or her children; just surface news like what sports they're doing, who has a cold, what trips they're taking, or what car they bought.

 

I'm mad at myself for messing up my life the way I have. And the holidays are just painful reminders to me of what I don't have. And I certainly don't want to spend the holidays with family members who don't even like me. But I hate my mother for calling me a 12 year old for wanting to set healthy emotional boundaries by saying "no" to the family Christmas gathering. Martinman is wrong with his assumption that I should suck it up and go to my mother or sister's for a few hours. And I see nothing wrong with preferring my own company to the company of people who only show me pity or criticism on a regular basis.

 

Spending money on a birthday card for my sister is about as luxurious as I can afford. It was like, do I buy that pack of asparagus or a birthday card? Until I finish my grad school program, get my teaching license and find a teaching job with a good salary, I have to live hand-to-mouth which is not a pleasant way to live at 40. And I certainly am too ashamed to even try to date or make new friends when I can't even afford to go out and socialize. I hate the holidays.

[Lowib]

All I have to say is.....FAMILY. Enough said.

[writergal]

All I have to say is.....FAMILY. Enough said.

 

Lowib you and I can agree to disagree. Enough said.

[betterdeal]

There are consequences to every action. Did you really not have an inkling that their responses would be as they are when you decided to not go to their place for Christmas? I suspect you did. Their reactions are theirs to own, not for you to worry or feel guilty about. Life's too short to spend it trapped in someone else's neurosis.

 

You're going to have a stress-free Christmas and act like a 12 year old. A happy, confident, self-sufficient 12 year old, in the company of people who you like.

[writergal]

There are consequences to every action. Did you really not have an inkling that their responses would be as they are when you decided to not go to their place for Christmas? I suspect you did. Their reactions are theirs to own, not for you to worry or feel guilty about. Life's too short to spend it trapped in someone else's neurosis.

 

You're going to have a stress-free Christmas and act like a 12 year old. A happy, confident, self-sufficient 12 year old, in the company of people who you like.

 

Hah! True, I had an inkling of their responses. I'm just tired of dealing with their negativity. I guess I posted out of frustration because I just want to act like a happy, confident, self-sufficient 12 year old as you say and do my own thing on Christmas Eve. I never really tried before due to the tractor beam that family neurosis can be. When you get used to dysfunction, it's hard to break away from it. The D Fam's neurosis shouldn't affect me but it still does (because I let it in weak moments). I think what this says about me is that I seriously need to get out of my apartment and involved in life again. If I had a better social network this wouldn't even be an issue for me.

 

I'm just feeling sorry for myself for being a bag-lady-grad-student at 40.

Edited December 16, 2011 by writergal

[betterdeal]

A sexy bag-lady-grad student at 40.

 

Go and get yourself a Christmas snog and to Hell with the monkey's on your back!

Edited December 16, 2011 by betterdeal

[LoveTKO]

I never really tried before due to the tractor beam that family neurosis can be. When you get used to dysfunction, it's hard to break away from it. The D Fam's neurosis shouldn't affect me but it still does (because I let it in weak moments).

 

I'm just feeling sorry for myself for being a bag-lady-grad-student at 40.

 

 

Tell me about the neurosis......jeez! This sibling of mine has literally not been gainfully employed the last ten years and lives off the system, but has this uncanny ability to manipulate people into giving her money. Everything is always someone else's fault; she literally has a fall out with a friend, acquaintance, prospective employer, etc. at least three times a year. She does have the skill-set to exploit your weak points and bring up things from the past to besmirch you - with the advent of Facebook and other social media sites, it gives her free reign to talk behind your back with "friends".

 

The sad thing is how my mother feels somewhat guilty and obligated to help her out, and since I have money I am being used as a proxy contributor through fear, obligation, and guilt tactics. It's a f***** mess!

[writergal]

Tell me about the neurosis......jeez! This sibling of mine has literally not been gainfully employed the last ten years and lives off the system, but has this uncanny ability to manipulate people into giving her money. Everything is always someone else's fault; she literally has a fall out with a friend, acquaintance, prospective employer, etc. at least three times a year. She does have the skill-set to exploit your weak points and bring up things from the past to besmirch you - with the advent of Facebook and other social media sites, it gives her free reign to talk behind your back with "friends".

 

The sad thing is how my mother feels somewhat guilty and obligated to help her out, and since I have money I am being used as a proxy contributor through fear, obligation, and guilt tactics. It's a f***** mess!

 

Hey LoveTKO, I responded to this in your other thread. I empathize with you and your mother and other sibling (sister or brother?) to some extent, but I can also see your sister's POV too (which you may not agree with but that's okay because I'm just speaking from my own experience not hers or yours). My advice: cut her off if you don't want to enable her anymore. It's hard but it will help. And I don't think your sister is playing games with you all.

 

A sexy bag-lady-grad student at 40.

 

Go and get yourself a Christmas snog and to Hell with the monkey's on your back!

 

Haha thanks. I will try to have a good time this Christmas Eve at my cousin's house. No snogging, but being with other family members who like me will be a close second.

 

I think this is the first year I've decided to follow through with boundaries and I posted because I'm feeling anxious about it.

Edited December 16, 2011 by writergal

[betterdeal]

Yeah, it feels weird to start with, but you'll get used to standing up for yourself in no time!

[writergal]

Yeah, it feels weird to start with, but you'll get used to standing up for yourself in no time!

 

It does. I got used to the way my family viewed me as the "screwed up one" and believed I had no other alternatives for a long, long time, which is why I was okay with living off of welfare for the past ten years, in between jobs here and there.

 

I was complacent with my welfare-lost-child-depressed woman role for nearly two decades until I decided to go back to school three years ago. And it's not like I can change the past 20 years. Whoops. Oh well. This year I just feel like standing on my own two feet. Granted, that means standing in line at the food shelf for a holiday ham but next year will hopefully be different. Hopefully I'll be employed as a teacher with a salary.

[LoveTKO]

Hey LoveTKO, I responded to this in your other thread. I empathize with you and your mother and other sibling (sister or brother?) to some extent, but I can also see your sister's POV too (which you may not agree with but that's okay because I'm just speaking from my own experience not hers or yours). My advice: cut her off if you don't want to enable her anymore. It's hard but it will help. And I don't think your sister is playing games with you all.

 

 

 

 

Interesting. I can't empathize with her point of view though, especially the one where she stated that getting a real job requires her to get up in the morning and work till late afternoon, ruining her day so to speak. It's not for her, per her words.

 

Yes, she is playing games. If you tell her that you might consider helping her out, she'll call you two weeks later saying that you promised to send her $2000, and she believes it too. She can't hold on to a job, relationship, and a lot of the relationships that she does have are tumultuous, volatile, and contentious. They start out by praising some one only to vilify that person a year later because "he or she tried to screw me over all along", or something along those lines.

[writergal]

Interesting. I can't empathize with her point of view though, especially the one where she stated that getting a real job requires her to get up in the morning and work till late afternoon, ruining her day so to speak. It's not for her, per her words.

 

Yes, she is playing games. If you tell her that you might consider helping her out, she'll call you two weeks later saying that you promised to send her $2000, and she believes it too. She can't hold on to a job, relationship, and a lot of the relationships that she does have are tumultuous, volatile, and contentious. They start out by praising some one only to vilify that person a year later because "he or she tried to screw me over all along", or something along those lines.

 

I'm sorry to hear that LoveTKO. Does she have borderline personality disorder? I know someone with that disorder who uses the charm/vilify tactic with her relationships.

 

I guess my post on your thread about her is off base except for the family portion. When a family has a screwed up person, it's not that person's fault. They were put in that position over a long period of time based on their position in the family, and the way they were treated by family members. It's the same effect that water erosion has on rock over long periods of time, the rock's original form is completely worn away against its own will based on external force of the water. It just happened to be placed in the water's path and can't escape the effects of its force. Same with family dysfunction on the family scapegoat/lost child. That person can't escape their fate to a certain degree.

 

I'm sorry she manipulates you but by offering to help you're enabling her behavior to continue (water over rocks). Time to stop the water flow (offers of financial support) and let your sister deal with herself. If she doesn't want to change then she won't. You sound like you have a good heart LoveTKO. Don't feel guilty for not helping your sister. You have to protect yourself. I know I beat you and your family up in your other thread, but that's just based on my own experiences which isn't fair to you. So take my other post with a grain of salt. You have my permission to ignore it too.

 

I'm estranged from my brother and I don't even know his children. It's unfortunate that my family system is so screwed up, because it's not just me. I'm the only one who "shows" the family dysfunction by the way I let fear and complacency and codependency dictate my choices and actions over the past 20 years. And once you get between a rock and a hard place, it's nearly impossible to wriggle yourself free. Like, if I can't pass my state license tests for teaching, then I can't become a teacher and I'll still have to pay back my 100K student loans and start over at some minimum wage job. That scares me to death. Going to my family's on Christmas Eve feels like the rock between trapped underneath a heavy water flow. Since I freed myself (via graduate school) I don't want to regress back to the rock underneath the water flow if that makes sense. I think with your sister, all you can do is let her go and stop trying to help her. She's codependent (it sounds like) and passive aggressive. She doesn't know any other form of existence because maybe all of you have tried to take care of her. And what she needs is to take care of herself. And when presented with that option, if she chooses not to, don't try to take care of her. She's not your responsibility. Never was. I resent my family members for trying to take care of me because they were invalidating me as a person by doing so.

[LoveTKO]

I have diagnosed her with BPD, but I'm not a licensed mental health professional, so I have to be careful labeling her condition; however, all the symptoms and personality traits seem to fit the profile. If giving her $300 her and there once in while....no problem, have at it, even if she talks behind my back about how spoiled I was and was always the favorite, but the amount in question is always $1000.

 

Money is not her problem because I've heard about and witnessed her compulsive shopping habits in the past. When times were good, if she liked a pair of shoes, she often purchased three pairs in different colors. Instead of biting the bullet and seriously looking for a job, she would rather ruminate 24/7 about how she has been handed the short end of the stick in life, not to mention worry about how she's going to pay the bills. Her thinking is diametrically opposite of a common sense approach. Everything is highly emotionally charged with a lot of sighs grunts, and she's constantly demanding that you agree with her, hoping that you will reiterate and reaffirm what she said. Very charming and attractive though.....make no mistake about it.

[Tayla]

Tayla so what exactly are you saying? That I should force myself to be with my family on Christmas Eve? No thanks. You clearly have a different opinion but that's fine. And it's obvious you've never been in my situation either. You have no idea what it's like to be a family scapegoat or what the repercussions of that is. To each his own.

 

Pardon but the way I wrote the response "CLEARLY" sided with you making your own CHOICES, and One of those CHOICES is your RIGHT to Be with "PERSONS" who do make your christmas merry, I NEVER SAID your blood Family. Please be somewhat of an adult here and RE_COMPREHEND what the message was.I consider your snide remark unwelcoming ...and yes to each their own,so keep your mind open when reading things...it will save you from making such comments that in NO way coincided with the matter at hand.

[writergal]

I have diagnosed her with BPD, but I'm not a licensed mental health professional, so I have to be careful labeling her condition; however, all the symptoms and personality traits seem to fit the profile. If giving her $300 her and there once in while....no problem, have at it, even if she talks behind my back about how spoiled I was and was always the favorite, but the amount in question is always $1000.

 

Money is not her problem because I've heard about and witnessed her compulsive shopping habits in the past. When times were good, if she liked a pair of shoes, she often purchased three pairs in different colors. Instead of biting the bullet and seriously looking for a job, she would rather ruminate 24/7 about how she has been handed the short end of the stick in life, not to mention worry about how she's going to pay the bills. Her thinking is diametrically opposite of a common sense approach. Everything is highly emotionally charged with a lot of sighs grunts, and she's constantly demanding that you agree with her, hoping that you will reiterate and reaffirm what she said. Very charming and attractive though.....make no mistake about it.

 

I can relate to her compulsive shopping. But one doesn't need to have a personality disorder to have a dysfunctional relationship with money. Bankruptcy literally runs in my family, starting with my grandfather who filed it 3 times during his lifetime. Then there were my parents who used their children's college funds to help them move, then when I bought my first car, my father forced me to write checks to him in my car payment amount, so that he could use that money for his own bills. I didn't figure this out until after he died. So I know where my money issues come from. I never learned to have a good relationship with money. And when I get it, I have panic attacks. Like when I got an accident settlement, I completely wasted it in one fell swoop because I didn't know about financial resources like financial advisors, etc. so I impulsively spent all my money without making a plan first; paid off my car which was dumb, because my car got wrecked a year later, then paid off my credit card debt only to file bankruptcy a year later, then spent the rest on material items. Did I save any of it? Nope. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Since I live hand to mouth now, I only spend money on rent, bills, and gas because i get my food at a food shelter.

 

Until your sister develops a better association with money her compulsive spending habits won't change. I know my city has a non-profit organization that offers financial education classes (teaches people about budgeting, etc.) . I thought about taking those classes but I have no money so what's the point?

 

As for you diagnosing your sister as BPD, be careful because that's coloring your perception of her and dictates the way you treat her. If she does have BPD then you have to accept that she's unlikely to recover as that is the nastiest personality disorder there is. People with BPD always blame the outside world and never take responsibility for their actions.

Edited December 16, 2011 by writergal