Why am I punished for setting boundaries?

[writergal]

Pardon but the way I wrote the response "CLEARLY" sided with you making your own CHOICES, and One of those CHOICES is your RIGHT to Be with "PERSONS" who do make your christmas merry, I NEVER SAID your blood Family. Please be somewhat of an adult here and RE_COMPREHEND what the message was.I consider your snide remark unwelcoming ...and yes to each their own,so keep your mind open when reading things...it will save you from making such comments that in NO way coincided with the matter at hand.

 

Tayla, I took your comments the wrong way because of how you phrased it. I wasn't being snide in my response...I was being defensive because I misinterpreted your comment. That doesn't mean I'm immature. It means that you didn't phrase your comment in a way I could understand it. Sorry if you took offense to my defense, but miscommunication can happen via the typed word. I do have an open mind when reading things. Don't fault me for misunderstanding how you phrased something because that's how I'm interpreting your response just now.

[LoveTKO]

My heart is taken it's not lost in space

And I don't want to see your mooney mooney face

I say why on earth do you revolve around me

Aren't you aware of the gravity

Don't need another satellite

 

I'm happy standing on my feet of clay

I have no wish to swim your milky milky way

I say why on earth do you send your letters 'round here

Only to gum up the atmosphere

Don't need another satellite

 

So circling we'll orbit another year

Two worlds that won't collide

So circling we'll orbit another year

Moon still tries to steal the tide away

 

Don't need another satellite

[writergal]

XTC rocks. Good song, very apropos to this thread.

[LoveTKO]

XTC rocks. Good song, very apropos to this thread.

 

 

Yes they do!! On the flip side, all the emotional vampires who don't agree with us taking a stand probably think "The Man Who Sailed Around His Soul" is about us...LOL!! :

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-fIEF4e1FU

[writergal]

LOL!

 

Ah, XTC. Good music.

 

This is how I feel right now...and why I come to Loveshack, to seek help to get me through my "Cynical Days." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzRUsgf2ZNs&feature=related

Edited December 17, 2011 by writergal

[Eddie Edirol]

Hey Writersgal. I think I can relate to your situation.

 

I havent talked to my younger brother since 2001, because of his general pigheadedness, ignorance, and constant lying. But hes the baby of the family, and my mother doesnt want cut him off completely. He has a hard time holding down a job, he siphons money out of her, but her and my dad dont want him to end up on the street, so they wont let him hit rock bottom. hes argumentative, never admits hes wrong, and doesnt even know that he doesnt know what hes talking about. He is also one of those people who is oversensitive about racism. So when Im listening to a radio program that is doing an Al Sharpton impression, he makes a reason to start a fight. It came to a head 10 years ago, and I havent spoken to him since. We all still live close to my parents, so I see him often, but its become normal that I dont speak to him.

 

My mom doesnt like it, she wants me to put up with it like she does, but I keep my boundaries solid. My dad understands, my older brother finally realized after years, and now my older brothers wife gave him chances and got burned for it. So now everyone else mostly shuns him. They dont ignore him completely, but we basically dont really awknowledge him when he talks, and it will continue until he grows up. Hes 38 btw. He has driven away pretty much all of his friends with his unreasonable personality.

 

So my plan is working. Instead of staying away from the family, I go to all of the family events, I steal the show, but I just act like my little brother is invisible. No one says anything, because now they all know. The message was clear, he has been wanting to get back into my good graces for the last 5 years. Hes not ready yet, but I know he will be soon. An old friend of mine, and his, we have been working on a plan to try to get him to a point where he will actually listen.

 

It was a grind to ignore him in front of family at first, but my family understood. I dont know if yours would do that, but maybe give it a try so you can enjoy your family without feeling uncomfortable? Could take a while to get everyone used to it, or to get your brother to turn around....

[LoveTKO]

"My faith in human nature is getting pretty thin......" I LOVE that song!!! Oranges and Lemons is another great album!

 

Miniature Sun is another one of my favorites, a song about a man who feels like he's on top of the world, only to come "crashing down like a miniature sun" when he uncovers that the love of his life is seeing another man. The way the jazzy and cool melody/harmony of that song morphs from an upbeat and exuberant vibe into this angry cacophony is great metaphor for someone who feels like the rug was pulled right from under him:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrKOsgha46E

[sadintexas]

Ya know, the thing about the rock is that it doesn't have a choice. It is where it is, unable to move or do anything about its situation. A person has a choice. I'm glad to see you exercising your right to choose what makes you happiest. I hope that you can shed the anger surrounding the situation and enjoy your holiday.

 

I get where the rock analogy applies to your early life, before you had the ability to make choices for yourself outside of your family's control. But you're an adult now, and if you identify your family influences as a major factor in the path your life has taken, what can you do about it, as an aware adult, to change your path?

 

Something I saw in this thread, your posts specifically, is that you pin the issues back to your family in one way or another. Especially when it comes to money. Your father taught you poorly, your grandfather filed bankruptcy three times...your siblings only help each other, but interestingly, they also came from the same family and you mention they all live in nice houses and have good jobs. Were they not taught the same poor money handling skills?

 

Then there's how you perceive that they see you but in what I read it seems more that you're projecting how YOU feel about you and your situation on them. I've noticed that you seemed quite defensive in your response to anyone who you felt disagreed with you. Especially Tayla's post who read as clear as day to me. She didn't write it in a way that was hard to understand at all. But your response to her correcting your misperception was to blame her for not writing it in a way that *you* could understand. I understood it. The poster who pointed it right after you misunderstood it read it correctly. That tells me that the chip on your shoulder is influencing how you perceive the words and actions of others.

 

Take it for what it's worth. We're just anonymous people on a message board, but I feel that you contribute a lot more to this dynamic than you're willing to acknowledge. You can continue to see them as the problem, but the longer you fall back on that as an excuse, the longer your life is going to continue like this. It's up to you to do something about it.

Edited December 20, 2011 by sadintexas

[writergal]

Ya know, the thing about the rock is that it doesn't have a choice. It is where it is, unable to move or do anything about its situation. A person has a choice. I'm glad to see you exercising your right to choose what makes you happiest. I hope that you can shed the anger surrounding the situation and enjoy your holiday.

 

I get where the rock analogy applies to your early life, before you had the ability to make choices for yourself outside of your family's control. But you're an adult now, and if you identify your family influences as a major factor in the path your life has taken, what can you do about it, as an aware adult, to change your path?

 

Something I saw in this thread, your posts specifically, is that you pin the issues back to your family in one way or another. Especially when it comes to money. Your father taught you poorly, your grandfather filed bankruptcy three times...your siblings only help each other, but interestingly, they also came from the same family and you mention they all live in nice houses and have good jobs. Were they not taught the same poor money handling skills?

 

Then there's how you perceive that they see you but in what I read it seems more that you're projecting how YOU feel about you and your situation on them. I've noticed that you seemed quite defensive in your response to anyone who you felt disagreed with you. Especially Tayla's post who read as clear as day to me. She didn't write it in a way that was hard to understand at all. But your response to her correcting your misperception was to blame her for not writing it in a way that *you* could understand. I understood it. The poster who pointed it right after you misunderstood it read it correctly. That tells me that the chip on your shoulder is influencing how you perceive the words and actions of others.

 

Take it for what it's worth. We're just anonymous people on a message board, but I feel that you contribute a lot more to this dynamic than you're willing to acknowledge. You can continue to see them as the problem, but the longer you fall back on that as an excuse, the longer your life is going to continue like this. It's up to you to do something about it.

 

I think you're trying to point out that my perceptions about my family are wrong, or you're implying that I refuse to take responsibility for contributing to the outcomes of events in my life. Of course I contribute to my family dynamic. I never denied that. But when you're alienated within your own family system...that IS a problem...not an excuse. I'm not using that as an excuse not to succeed in my life. This will sound black and white, but people's success and failures depends on their social networks. If you don't have any resources of support, i.e. friends, community, family, education, work then you will have a more difficult time succeeding in your goals.

 

This thread was started because I decided to put up some psychological boundaries regarding getting together for Christmas. Setting boundaries is not the same as blaming my family of origin for my problems. Those are two completely separate issues.

 

I don't have a good relationship with my brother and I prefer not to spend Christmas Eve in his presence. What exactly do you think it is that I'm not acknowledging about my contribution to my own life's failings?

[betterdeal]

Then there's how you perceive that they see you but in what I read it seems more that you're projecting how YOU feel about you and your situation on them. I've noticed that you seemed quite defensive in your response to anyone who you felt disagreed with you. Especially Tayla's post who read as clear as day to me. She didn't write it in a way that was hard to understand at all. But your response to her correcting your misperception was to blame her for not writing it in a way that *you* could understand. I understood it. The poster who pointed it right after you misunderstood it read it correctly. That tells me that the chip on your shoulder is influencing how you perceive the words and actions of others.

 

Hypersensitivity is often a result of being hurt repeatedly. Learning to stand up for yourself reduces further harm. If the threat of harm is perceived, not real, challenging it will often lead to clarification from others (as has been done in the exchange on this thread), thus a threat is extinguished. Not challenging something that you see as an assault on you increases that hypersensitivity. Thus a simple misunderstanding escalates and causes real harm.

 

Had WG not spoken her mind, she'd still think Tayla was attacking her. So things have improved. Sure, there are more improvements one can make, such as:

 

- Seek clarification: Explain your perception and ask them if that's what they meant.

- Sit back and consider, is this the only interpretation of this that I can reach?

- Verbally curse and spit and gnash and wail to your heart's content, in real life, and get that out of your system, and reply when you are calmer.

- Made a mistake? Acknowledge it, apologise, move on.

 

The beauty of the Internet is you can take your time.

[writergal]

Hey Writersgal. I think I can relate to your situation.

 

I havent talked to my younger brother since 2001, because of his general pigheadedness, ignorance, and constant lying. But hes the baby of the family, and my mother doesnt want cut him off completely. He has a hard time holding down a job, he siphons money out of her, but her and my dad dont want him to end up on the street, so they wont let him hit rock bottom. hes argumentative, never admits hes wrong, and doesnt even know that he doesnt know what hes talking about.

 

I'm sorry to hear that but it sounds like you can see both sides of my problem as you're living it with your younger brother.

 

 

My mom doesnt like it, she wants me to put up with it like she does, but I keep my boundaries solid. My dad understands, my older brother finally realized after years, and now my older brothers wife gave him chances and got burned for it. So now everyone else mostly shuns him. They dont ignore him completely, but we basically dont really awknowledge him when he talks, and it will continue until he grows up. Hes 38 btw. He has driven away pretty much all of his friends with his unreasonable personality.

 

So, you keep your boundaries solid. That's what I'm trying to do, now, which I never really did before. I just passively went along as though my opinions never mattered, especially after my serious brain injury accident a decade ago. By the way, my mother never visited me in the hospital while I was recovering from my brain injury. I learned through my sister that she had no sympathy for my accident (I was on a bike, hit by a truck which was being driven by an illegal immigrant; my bike disappeared from the scene and the two witnesses names were illegible on the police report, but I digress). And when I was released from the hospital, my previous roommate had found another roommate in my absence so I was forced to continue my outpatient recovery at my mother's which was more traumatic than the physical injuries from my accident. I wasn't allowed to drive anywhere and she refused to take me to doctor appointments, telling me I was fine. One time when I was vomiting up blood with my head spinning, I asked her to call 9-1-1 and she told me I was having a panic attack. So I had to call 9-1-1- myself and the doctors found out I had a stomach ulcer which my medications has exacerbated. She did not provide a safe environment for me to recover from what has been the most traumatic experience in my life.

 

As far as everyone in your family shunning your younger brother that breaks my heart. The way you describe how he's treated is *exactly* how my family treats me at family functions; they don't acknowledge anything I say...they pretend not to hear me and talk to each other. It's really obvious to me that's what they're doing, and it makes me feel physically sick to my stomach. I don't know if my personality is considered unreasonable by everyone. But like your brother, I'm the scapegoat in my family. Nothing I do or say is ever correct. I'm always told I'm wrong, treated like I'm inferior or too codependent. Meanwhile, my family's leaving me out of the important family stuff, and just acknowledging me on the surface.

 

So my plan is working. Instead of staying away from the family, I go to all of the family events, I steal the show, but I just act like my little brother is invisible. No one says anything, because now they all know. The message was clear, he has been wanting to get back into my good graces for the last 5 years. Hes not ready yet, but I know he will be soon. An old friend of mine, and his, we have been working on a plan to try to get him to a point where he will actually listen.

 

I'm not at your level yet. And I have no plans to reconcile with my brother or let him back into my good graces. I spoke to my brother's best friend about this situation recently and he can see both sides. He agrees that my brother can be very passive aggressive.

 

It was a grind to ignore him in front of family at first, but my family understood. I dont know if yours would do that, but maybe give it a try so you can enjoy your family without feeling uncomfortable? Could take a while to get everyone used to it, or to get your brother to turn around....

 

I don't have a thicker skin yet because my position in my family is as low as your younger brother's. If I go to a family function I'm ignored and shunned, not listened to or acknowledged. So there's no motivation for me to go and try to and ignore the fact that my family's ignoring me. I think I'm better off being by myself or volunteering or going to a friend's when that option is available.

[writergal]

They are separate issues and as I said before, I think it's great that you're making a choice that feels good to you. But blaming your family for problems has been a pretty consistent theme from what I've read. For example, the cousin thing on the other thread. It IS possible that something else happened that caused the disconnect between you and your cousins for that brief period, but it seemed implausible to you. And the money handling skills. I pointed that out in my prior post to you, but you didn't respond specifically to it...still a good question.

 

I'm not saying that your view of them is wrong. I don't have the insight to begin to say that. But what does seem to stick out to me in your postings is that everything boils back down to "them". And I can see where that can leave holes in your foundation if this was the same dynamic as you grew up. But as an adult, I would question then if identifying the problem (which you've done) and going to counseling to work through those feelings (which you're doing) wouldn't free you of those feelings.

 

I think maybe it would be best to describe it as being stuck in a victim role. Crappy stuff happens to us that is beyond our control. If we cling to that bad stuff, it will rule the rest of our lives. If we find a way to work through it and let it go, it frees us. I know you're working with a counselor about that family dynamic and s/he has taught you a lot about it, but I guess my question to you is: is the counselor giving you tools to heal from that and move past it? If not, it might be time to look for another counselor that can focus more on your healing.

 

Be extremely careful with your statement that in all of my posts I just blame my family but don't take any responsibility for my situation, because you really have no idea what my life is like outside the walls of this online forum.

 

It's very easy to be proselytistic without being in the person's shoes you're preaching to. Have you ever been called a loser by your own mother? Or physically blocked at the gate of the plane you're trying to board to China, by your own mother who tells you that if you get on that plane, she'll never speak to you again and who threatens to cut off your finances once you land in Hong Kong so you won't have access to your checking account? Does that paint a clearer picture for you of what I've had to deal with? What could I have possibly done to provoke that from my own mother? What you're saying is that my actions warrant my family's treatment of me, regardless of what those actions are. Correct? So, by accepting a teaching position in China for a year, that warrants my mother's actions of threatening to cut me out of the family if I leave, trying to physically block me from getting on a plane, then her last resort of threatening to cut off my finances if I still board the plane? I disagree. I was in my mid-20s when I accepted this teaching position, and I'd been to Europe a number of times by myself prior to this, on my OWN dime, not hers.

 

I'm afraid my life isn't as black and white as you suppose it to be; I can't just be freed by my past. No one can. It's not possible. Our past defines who we are and motivates the choices we make in life. One cannot simply escape their past through therapy and medication. Plus, "escape" is not my goal here. I trust a therapist about as much as I trust a politician. No, the therapist I've seen isn't helping me. Talk therapy is cheap, frankly. I need to finish my grad program, get a teaching job and escape this student-poverty-prison I've been in for the past three years because it's demoralizing. It's hard to know that based on MY choices, this is the sum, the total, the conclusion of wanting to return to school to get licensed in a vocation that I find both rewarding and soul-fulfilling. I'm in a different place than my two siblings and I know it's stupid to draw a comparison but that's an ego-reaction.

 

Yes, I agree with you that crappy stuff happens to us that's beyond our control and that it's our reaction to that crappy stuff that dictates the outcome. That's not what I posted about here. I posted about feeling insecure about setting boundaries with my family which takes a lot of courage when you've been put in the scapegoat position (rock analogy) which was not in my control. If you've ever read any literature about dysfunctional family systems, once a scapegoat...always a scapegoat. I can change how I relate to my family but that's all I can do. I can't change them. So it becomes this dance of push-pull; me pushing back against the role I was forced into, and my family trying to pull and keep me in my scapegoat role.

Edited December 22, 2011 by writergal

[writergal]

Hypersensitivity is often a result of being hurt repeatedly. Learning to stand up for yourself reduces further harm. If the threat of harm is perceived, not real, challenging it will often lead to clarification from others (as has been done in the exchange on this thread), thus a threat is extinguished. Not challenging something that you see as an assault on you increases that hypersensitivity. Thus a simple misunderstanding escalates and causes real harm.

 

I would agree that I'm hypersensitive...the result of being raised by a manic depressive mother and father who delivered emotionally mixed messages all the time.

 

By the time I was 15, I'd been emotionally invalidated by both my parents so much that I became codependent. Two major examples of this that I know scarred me for life; when I was in 5th grade, my mother's suicide attempt woke me up (yet somehow my sister and brother slept through it). My father was in the kitchen with her, talking her down from overdosing on multiple bottles of pills. Their voices woke me up so I stood at the bottom of the stairs, listening. Then when I walked up the stairs to the kitchen, both my parents yelled at me to go to my room. They never followed up with an explanation of why my mother was sitting there with bottles of pills, crying about how miserable she was while my father pleaded with her in tears to think of her children. Then when he was diagnosed with cancer, and I cried at the news, he told me to shut up but never apologized.

 

So Betterdeal hit the nail on the head. My need to constantly protect myself (threat of perceived harm or real harm) stems from those traumatic life experiences I've had. So in that way, yes, I blame my parents for teaching me that maladaptive coping strategy. As a result, I come across hostile and defensive with people whom I seek clarification from when the truth is the opposite: I defend myself before there is evidence of a threat just because growing up my parents had unstable boundaries with my sister, brother and I.

[Eve]

Well OP, I suppose the case is that the cycle must end somewhere. If you do this just for Christmas then you will be perpetuating the cycle. The answer therefore is to ensure you have a greater aim, regardless of your past.

 

Yes, it is hard that you need to do this but really - back to your original post, this would be what you are doing if you told the kids, or insisted on them knowing about the past. You would be feeding into perpetuating the past.

 

At some point the past must die.

 

I won't say anymore because I do understand your pain. Me? I moved away and started again. Change of name, change of location.. fresh start. Sadly, many like us do this and fall foul of predators awaiting us.

 

The answer is to let it die. Until then you will always be caught up in the cycle and it is highly likely that in keeping the pain you will lose the capacity to feel and love.

 

It's not worth it.

 

Your parents failed you. Don't fail yourself. Forgiveness is the answer but not many are willing to do this and then become unable to do the swop.

 

So, think beyond Christmas. Get used to thinking beyond. This is how you get free, even if they are right in front of you.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[writergal]

See you lash at out me because I say something you disagree with, and again, blow it out of proportion because what you perceived I said is not what I said at all. You keep saying that I am saying that their treatment of you is justified and I have NEVER said that.

 

I will caution you not to make assumptions because you also do not know what I've been through, what my childhood was like, what my adult life has been like, and what steps I've taken to overcome my challenges in life. I can promise you this, I could probably write a damned book.

 

Happy Holidays to you. I wish you luck.

 

Sorry I misunderstood your last post. Happy Holidays to you and thanks for your feedback.

[writergal]

Well OP, I suppose the case is that the cycle must end somewhere. If you do this just for Christmas then you will be perpetuating the cycle. The answer therefore is to ensure you have a greater aim, regardless of your past.

 

Yes, it is hard that you need to do this but really - back to your original post, this would be what you are doing if you told the kids, or insisted on them knowing about the past. You would be feeding into perpetuating the past.

 

At some point the past must die.

 

I won't say anymore because I do understand your pain. Me? I moved away and started again. Change of name, change of location.. fresh start. Sadly, many like us do this and fall foul of predators awaiting us.

 

The answer is to let it die. Until then you will always be caught up in the cycle and it is highly likely that in keeping the pain you will lose the capacity to feel and love.

 

It's not worth it.

 

Your parents failed you. Don't fail yourself. Forgiveness is the answer but not many are willing to do this and then become unable to do the swop.

 

So, think beyond Christmas. Get used to thinking beyond. This is how you get free, even if they are right in front of you.

 

Take care,

Eve x

 

 

'Let the past die and move onward' seems to be the consensus of everyone's responses here; some of which I refused to agree with because 1) complacency 2) risk failure yet again. I tried three times to leave...living out of state, and then moving to another country. In hindsight, my mistake was not planning my life for myself, but around my family. Not that I have to be physically apart from my family as much as psychologically...which is easier said than done of course.

 

Your parents failed you. Don't fail yourself. Forgiveness is the answer but not many are willing to do this and then become unable to do the swop.

 

So, think beyond Christmas. Get used to thinking beyond. This is how you get free, even if they are right in front of you.

 

I realize forgiveness can be healing but it's not easy to do. Something to work on I guess. I will definitely try to think "beyond" in terms of emotional distance, not just the physical.

 

Sorry if I was a pain (as usual, due to my stubborn personality) but I did appreciate everyone's feedback, even when I was defensive.

Edited December 23, 2011 by writergal

[betterdeal]

When you push against something, you'll experience resistance. What you termed "punishment" is a form of resistance. Change always comes up against inertia. In fact, if you hadn't experienced resistance, you could argue there was no change. You are punished, resisted, because you are reshaping your world, your relationships, your reality.

[Eve]

'Let the past die and move onward' seems to be the consensus of everyone's responses here; some of which I refused to agree with because 1) complacency 2) risk failure yet again. I tried three times to leave...living out of state, and then moving to another country. In hindsight, my mistake was not planning my life for myself, but around my family. Not that I have to be physically apart from my family as much as psychologically...which is easier said than done of course.

 

 

 

I realize forgiveness can be healing but it's not easy to do. Something to work on I guess. I will definitely try to think "beyond" in terms of emotional distance, not just the physical.

 

Sorry if I was a pain (as usual, due to my stubborn personality) but I did appreciate everyone's feedback, even when I was defensive.

 

Girl, none of it is easy.

 

Enjoy time with your sister and the kids. I am really glad you will have company.

 

Families are the most beautiful and most hazadous experience! You are right in wanting, in fact needing to be heard but I reckon (from my own experiences) that things can get rather twisted when we don't seperate from our parents in a natural way in our teens. I mean the whole point of growing up is that we are supposed to then carry the baton (like in a tag team race) onto the next stage but some find themselves without a baton, just simply running for their lives!

 

Stop running.

 

Try and level your experiences to that of others and give to yourself what you need. Please also know that even though she shows it dysfunctionally, there is probably no greater pain than not being able to connect with ones child. Once upon a time that bond was there with your mum, you just can't remember it or honour it because of all the stuff that has happened. Same with your brother.

 

In my experience I concluded that this is why I was in so much pain - because I could not get that back no matter what I did. I was seen to be a **** up because I can't pretend. I feel things so strongly!

 

In the end, I forgave but did not really know what this meant. This seemed to stop the worst aspect of the whole thing which was that the anxiety felt had kept being transferred onto other things; eating, search for love, my physical appearance.

 

It took a number of years to really move on but now they can see me and I can see them without the past dictating our interactions. I know this is not always the ending we get though. Sometimes reconciliation is not possible.

 

*Hugs*

 

You have a good break and leave it alone for a bit now. Yeah, concentrate on being in the present. At some point, on your own, write it all down and have a mini funeral and start again. Make sure you put your highest hopes of what could have been as well, then live. I truly believe that we all have something like this to live through.

 

You are going to be ok. Sorry your mum could not say this to you right now because you need to hear it - but it's not over till it's over.

 

Stay in the present and let it die.

 

Take care,

Eve x