Trickle Truth

[Spark1111]

Hi Kidd.

 

I agree with you that this whole line of you as the abuser is off course. You know what you did couch, revenge affair, physically throwing her out is wrong. It does however point to the level of brokenness in your whole situation.

 

I agree with Spark that people can recover when it gets to that level, but i believe its rare, and I believe Sparks way of dealing with life is a rarity that allowed her to really have a great marriage again. It will take a massive turnaround on both of your parts to really have a healthy marriage again.

 

Also, that she is insisting still on supervised visits and setting up these visits so sporadically is really a bad sign as to the state of your marriage. I dont think you deserve that, but the reality that she feels you deserve that is troubling to say the least.

 

I am curious though why you see it as a false reconciliation of 8 months. From reading your posts, it seemed she did everything you wanted and this was the only lie, and it was a lie to protect the past, not a lie about current behavior. Im not sure why that sent you so off the deep end and why that colored the whole reconciliation as false. Did she know that if she covered any questions with a lie that you could potentially react this way? I just dont understand why she didn't tell the truth about this when she came clean on everything else and as you said, you didn't have a violent response, you just dealt with it. Just trying to understand, because you seemed like you were on a good path and that you would be a couple that made it.

 

Because the minute the BS discovers you lied or omitted a truth --and sex with your lover on OUR couch is a huge omission-- sets the recovery clock back to zero, hence, a false reconciliation.

 

This isn't KIdds term. It is the term used by websites, ICs and MCs.

 

After a betrayal, one lie or lie by omission discovered by the betrayed undoes ALL the progress established in restoring trust.

 

Why? You proved yourself still UNTRUSTWORTHY by that one lie or lie by omission. Your shame outweighs my pain, pain YOU caused me.

 

You are either damaged, immature, or unstable if you STILL believe you can lie to me after betrayal.

 

You may read the books, go to counseling, cry big tears of remorse, beg reconciliation, but the minute you lie or omit to us? A betrayed thinks....you do not have the courage to change....you will never change....here is my love and forgiveness on a silver platter and all you have to do is tell the truth, be remorseful, and figure out the "why" so I have reassurance that this will never happen again.

 

One lie? you are still weak and cowardly with poor, immature coping skills and a betrayed, still in so much pain in trying to heal, says to themselves, ARE YOU KIDDING? YOU MUST BE KIDDING?????

 

And then sets the couch on fire. Or crashes the car into your xlover's. Or wants to.

[heartinlove]

Because the minute the BS discovers you lied or omitted a truth --and sex with your lover on OUR couch is a huge omission-- sets the recovery clock back to zero, hence, a false reconciliation.

 

This isn't KIdds term. It is the term used by websites, ICs and MCs.

 

After a betrayal, one lie or lie by omission discovered by the betrayed undoes ALL the progress established in restoring trust.

 

Why? You proved yourself still UNTRUSTWORTHY by that one lie or lie by omission. Your shame outweighs my pain, pain YOU caused me.

 

You are either damaged, immature, or unstable if you STILL believe you can lie to me after betrayal.

 

You may read the books, go to counseling, cry big tears of remorse, beg reconciliation, but the minute you lie or omit to us? A betrayed thinks....you do not have the courage to change....you will never change....here is my love and forgiveness on a silver platter and all you have to do is tell the truth, be remorseful, and figure out the "why" so I have reassurance that this will never happen again.

 

One lie? you are still weak and cowardly with poor, immature coping skills and a betrayed, still in so much pain in trying to heal, says to themselves, ARE YOU KIDDING? YOU MUST BE KIDDING?????

 

And then sets the couch on fire. Or crashes the car into your xlover's. Or wants to.

 

Ok, I get it. Thanks for that explanation on why that made it a false reconciliation and how it sets back the clock to zero. It just didn't make any sense to me that she told the truth for everything else and why did she lie on this one. From everything Kidd posted, she appeared that she was completely onboard for reconciliation, completely willing to do the work, and was doing it. I also was wondering why this lie sent him over the edge when he was able to handle all the other revelations. But from what he just posted there were many other lies that she then confessed to so I get it.

 

Listen, I understand burning the couch. I understand getting that angry, even if I still believe its up to all of us to draw a line on our behavior. And there is a violence to that and to physically throwing her out that is very scary to many women, which it sounds like his wife is one of. I hope that Kidd's wife can find the forgiveness for him that he found for her for having an affair.

 

But as I said in my post, I dont agree with his wifes reaction. She should know him well enough to know that a lie like that would send him over the edge. And now to punish him by requiring supervised visitation with his children, I feel is really wrong. It does make me question her sincerity in reconciliation when Kidd made it very clear he wanted the whole truth and that was his condition for reconciling.

 

I hope his wife is able to see her part in all of this, but given her required supervision for the kids, her not even setting those up regularly, and her lack of willingness to talk to Kidd, part of me is suspecting she may want out where she doesn't look like the bad guy and shes going to use Kidds recent behavior to that end. She seems to be using his behavior to absolve herself of her part. If thats the case Kidd, you deserve better. I hope thats not the case.

[2sunny]

The fact that his W even did that to him makes me wonder WHY he even wants her back!

 

Yes - everything she did was unforgivable.

 

Then what he did wasn't reasonable either.

 

I am not an OW - so don't assume everyone here is.

 

Sometimes it's best to realize every R comes to an end - recognizing when the end comes is critical.

 

The fact that he still wants her back shows how little sense of worth and self respect he has. These are points that need work.

Edited January 17, 2012 by 2sunny

[goldengirl86]

Look, I can take your afternoon trysts at seedy hotels (shower, anyone?), parking lots, parks, and your place when the kids were with your x at court-ordered weekend visitations. I can abide by the endless texts and emails and sexting and thong photos and out-of-town hotels, blah, blah,, blah.

 

I can understand your endless future faking and NEVER hopping off the fence because the grown up in you does not want to LOSE the mature family life you have created.

 

But I can understand the mental unhinging that comes with learning you f##ked your lover on MY COUCH in MY/OUR home and relished in your email that "you got away with it," BUT never told me. I found out on my own 8 months after the fact.

 

THAT is something you should disclose right after DDAy if you have any intent of reconciling and take my feelings into account. They sat, talked, cried, held each other, maybe made love on that couch for 8 months and she never thought to tell him she and her xOM trysted there?????

 

C'MON ladies...even as OW you understand the devastation of this revelation. Your MM tells YOU he has sex with another OW on your couch in your home while you were at work months after you decided to forgive him and try to reconcile as he .....oops, made a mistake and never thought this was important enough to tell you.

 

Where is BentNot Broken? I think she could shed some personal insights here.....

 

I can't think of a greater violation except f**king your lover in OUR bed where we made love.

 

I think, all in all, Kidd showed amazing restraint under the circumstances.

 

I am the most level headed person you could ever meet....and yet, under those circumstances, where you feel played for a total fool, I may have thrown the kids, H, out of the house, set the couch and house on fire, and sought to smash my car into the car of the OW/OM.

 

And you would have too.

 

You are missing the point here....and hyperfocusing on one irrational act by a man at the breaking point....and I do NOT condone physical force on any level at any time.

 

 

Look you can put labels on whatever the hell you like, at the end the day im not an OW, im just a woman. So yes can I see why he be upset, hell yeah, can i justify his behaviour why would I, you and he and all the other BS are already doing that.

 

Look what she did was wrong, nobody is disputing that, but as i get alot she is not the one on here , the point is she was so scared as to call the police, and to intiate supervised vistitaion and propose a separation for 3 months, people dont just randomly do that, and if she wanted him back right now than she would not have done that, that being said who knows what will happen.

[2sunny]

I want to know why you would want your W back... Please answer.

 

It's very concerning and totally unhealthy to even think of wanting her back - especially when she's still been completely untrustworthy - and still willing to betray you.

 

Nothing healthy about that choice. Makes me really convened for your well being.

 

Why would you settle for so little? That's not a marriage - hats a disaster - yet you want to beg for more... Why?

[Kidd]

I want to know why you would want your W back... Please answer.

 

It's very concerning and totally unhealthy to even think of wanting her back - especially when she's still been completely untrustworthy - and still willing to betray you.

 

Nothing healthy about that choice. Makes me really convened for your well being.

 

Why would you settle for so little? That's not a marriage - hats a disaster - yet you want to beg for more... Why?

 

I think you're making an assumption. That said, I am trying to reserve judgment until I've had a chance to at least speak with her. There hasn't been a word since it happened. I am doing that much for the sake of my kids' last chance at a nuclear family. The supervised visitation piece may end as early as today if the court approves our settlement over the injunction. At this point, I think it would take a miraculous change on her part and I've got nothing indicating that's the direction she's going. I've got 18 years invested here; another few weeks to be able to have a conversation about it isn't much in the grand scheme of things. People have recovered from worse and anyone that knows me via my threads knows that I am biased towards forgiveness and reconciliation when it is merited. I believe people can make mistakes and change. But there's no question that I'm running out of patience. Not seeing my kids is over the top.

[Spark1111]

I think you're making an assumption. That said, I am trying to reserve judgment until I've had a chance to at least speak with her. There hasn't been a word since it happened. I am doing that much for the sake of my kids' last chance at a nuclear family. The supervised visitation piece may end as early as today if the court approves our settlement over the injunction. At this point, I think it would take a miraculous change on her part and I've got nothing indicating that's the direction she's going. I've got 18 years invested here; another few weeks to be able to have a conversation about it isn't much in the grand scheme of things. People have recovered from worse and anyone that knows me via my threads knows that I am biased towards forgiveness and reconciliation when it is merited. I believe people can make mistakes and change. But there's no question that I'm running out of patience. Not seeing my kids is over the top.

 

Kidd, the most hurtful part of the entire email, for me, would have been relishing that you would never find out.

 

That is a huge red flag that this affair had some revenge elements and in a way, I can relate. It so smacks of immature, teenage rebellion.

 

Who is she truly rebelling against? Mommy? Daddy? Who was the mean, or distant, or disapproving one in her childhood?

 

If I were her and in IC, that is where I would start.

 

My H did not enjoy the best relationship with his mother, and his dad, a strict but absent disciplinarian, wasn't around much to run interference.

 

In our marital relationship, I frequently felt myH's projection of his early childhood dynamic onto me and it was undeserved and unfair.

 

The say we choose a partner that is an improved version of the parent we had the LEAST successful relationship with because we are trying to heal old psychic wounds.

[2sunny]

So you know she is a liar and a cheat - yet you "still want to give the M consideration" - hmmm.

 

IF you R - how do you trust? You can't... You know she's a gal that lies to you and does what she wants behind your back.

 

IF you consider this to be a M you CHOOSE - then don't be surprised and complain when she delivers more of the same.

 

You participate by going back - you get what you KNOW you're going to get.

 

I question your judgment to choose for yourself wisely.

[Kidd]

So you know she is a liar and a cheat - yet you "still want to give the M consideration" - hmmm.

 

IF you R - how do you trust? You can't... You know she's a gal that lies to you and does what she wants behind your back.

 

IF you consider this to be a M you CHOOSE - then don't be surprised and complain when she delivers more of the same.

 

You participate by going back - you get what you KNOW you're going to get.

 

I question your judgment to choose for yourself wisely.

 

I wouldn't be the first person to R with a liar and a cheat. Speed bumps are to be expected. As usual, thinking I was the exception turns out to be the rule. I didn't expect it. Whether I would get more of the same remains to be seen. What I do know is that I will be in control of my reactions in the future. Nothing will surprise me anymore. I will be quietly decisive.

[2sunny]

You are shooting in the dark with no idea what a healthy boundary looks like.

 

Counseling may help...

[Kidd]

You are shooting in the dark with no idea what a healthy boundary looks like.

 

Counseling may help...

 

My self-esteem and self-respect are in a perfectly healthy place. I'm doing what's best for myself and my children and I am proud of my actions. The mistakes I've made won't be made again. Perhaps you should consider not speaking in such absolutes, making assumptions about my intent, and being so judgmental.

[2sunny]

I'm referring to you still considering a reconciliation with your lying and cheating wife.

 

Any healthy person wouldn't consider it at all without firm guidelines and solid evidence that change is consistent and action is happening to REPAIR the damage caused.

 

Don't get me wrong - I admire that YOU are doing change for yourself and your kids.

 

What baffles me is why you would even consider speaking to the woman who set all this chaos into motion? You should want more for yourself than who she is/what she has done. She has betrayed you and the core of the family - yet you still want her.

 

That makes me sad that you would still choose such a broken woman to connect with.

 

A healthy man would step back and say "I'm not associating with her until she gives long term consistent evidence that she has changed the lying, cheating core being of herself." but you haven't stated that.

 

You should want more for yourself. You deserve more than what you're willing to "settle for."

[2sunny]

She treated you with disregard and disrespect.

 

She's still doing the same. Even more so!

 

Yet you keep asking for more of her...

 

This is what's out of balance! A healthy man would say "screw her- screw being treated like crap - I want a kind and loving woman because I deserve it" - but you don't look like you're doing that.

 

It looks like:

 

She treated me poorly - so I'm gonna treat her poorly - and I expect to have a happy M.

 

It does equate!

 

You can't do both.

[2long]

The fact that his W even did that to him makes me wonder WHY he even wants her back!

 

In the months and years 2 come, if she does nothing 2 make amends (quite the undertaking after all that's happened), he won't.

 

 

The fact that he still wants her back shows how little sense of worth and self respect he has. These are points that need work.

 

People reading stories like this almost always expect great strides before the BS can make them. The work will continue. I'm sure of it.

 

-ol' 2long

[drifter777]

I wouldn't be the first person to R with a liar and a cheat.

Perhaps not the first, but do you really want to be one of those people who clings to the fantasy that the liar and cheat will change their spots?

Speed bumps are to be expected.

Speed bumps? The lies and secrets she continues to surprise you with seem more like fences than speed bumps. As for you, putting a cork in your emotions until you explode to the point of jail, court, and protection orders might also be considered a little more than a speed bump.

As usual, thinking I was the exception turns out to be the rule. I didn't expect it. Whether I would get more of the same remains to be seen. What I do know is that I will be in control of my reactions in the future. Nothing will surprise me anymore. I will be quietly decisive.

 

Since the beginning your predictions of the future have not been very accurate. You continue to react to the nightmare-de-jour without really considering the bigger picture. You are not learning from the realities of the past as you continue to believe that now, as you move forward, you have everything under control. Good intentions are not nearly enough to get you through the mess you are in. Face the fact that you need professional help.

[Kidd]

She treated you with disregard and disrespect.

 

She's still doing the same. Even more so!

 

Yet you keep asking for more of her...

 

This is what's out of balance! A healthy man would say "screw her- screw being treated like crap - I want a kind and loving woman because I deserve it" - but you don't look like you're doing that.

 

It looks like:

 

She treated me poorly - so I'm gonna treat her poorly - and I expect to have a happy M.

 

It does equate!

 

You can't do both.

 

When I say that I wouldn't consider R unless I see massive changes on the part of my wife, you say she doesn't have to do anything. When I say I would consider R if she make massives changes, you say I shouldn't consider it when she's not doing anything. I think my terms are clear and it's you that are inconsistent. Sorry. There are things that would happen on both ends to permit R to happen. I'm not sitting here with my head in the sand. I have conditions, they're not yet being met, and we're not Ring. Seems clear to me.

 

Drifter, I've been in IC for the whole 8 months. Does he incessantly talk about my feelings? Yep. Was I angry when I found her blog? Sure. The trauma I suffered all over again was bullcrap. It made me angry, sad, mad, irritated, pissed off, hurt, betrayed. I don't deny it. In fact, I would argue that I didn't stuff down my feelings but did quite the opposite. I'm not sure what you want from me. IC-check. MC-check. 15-20 books-check. Support group-check. Group-think via LS-check. It was good except she kept lying.

[goldengirl86]

Kidd i would listen to 2sunny they are giving you some great advice!!!

[2sunny]

I take into consideration the massive amount of hatred and betrayal that a spouse portrays by simply having sex with another human being in your private space = your home!

 

Her intent shows her anger - forme , this alone would be an unforgivable violation to the heart.

 

Yes she cheated - but she also intentionally screwed him in your home.

 

Why you could forgive that is beyond reason - to me.

 

Why you would now even give R any thought makes me concerned about such decisions - you DO have choices... Choose wisely.

[Spark1111]

Ok, maybe I am a rare person but I do not think so....

 

I am a very patient person, and I decided not to decide anything for a very long time......

 

I did have a bag packed and a lawyer on speed dial for quite a few years, and I will admit-- it is not a sane way to love or live.

 

I decided to R a few months after DDAY....and I rationalized that whether I R or divorced, the grieivng period would be the same -- 2 to 5 years.

 

I decided to give it a shot for the sake of my children and to see what happened. I also deeply, deeply loved him....and we shared a long history together. He also sexually excited me (always mutual), more that any man I have ever known. That is a huge draw in a long term relationship and I am astute enough to know that also is a rare thing.....

 

He trickle-truthed more than a few times and I almost left on more than one occasion.....

 

But today I am glad I stayed. He woke up, did a lot of serious work in IC and MC and he did CHANGE his behavior and beliefs and refocused on me, the marriage and the family,

 

I am glad today I gave him a second chance....but it came at a cost: my ego, my pride and my self-esteem took a major hit and took a long time to rebuild.

 

Today the affair is a distant memory and his fAP no longer haunts my dreams or occupies my thoughts. In fact, I feel sorry for the both of them now; two broken, angry people who had to rebel against a mean mommy (and daddy and xH for her!). The affair had nothing to do with me or our marriage. After therapy, he agrees and never misses an opportunity to apologize for his past behavior.

 

Kidd, I disagree with many of the posters here today. But maybe I AM one of the lucky ones and have to be wise to that.

 

Nevertheless, I need to tell you: You could be too. And you have nothing to lose by hanging back and biding your time and seeing what unfolds in the months and years to come.