A question on paradise and heaven

[SelfCentered]

Hello

 

This is one I've been thinking about for a while now. I've bought it up to friends a few times but that's usually over a drink and the discussion falls apart.

 

I am an atheist and am opening up this discussion to those who believe in some form of an afterlife but mainly those of the Abrahamic faiths.

 

I don't want this to come across as an attack on religion- that's not what I'm about. It's simply a conversation about your definition of "paradise".

 

First, semantics.

 

Paradise and heaven: Different religions and different denominations within those religions might interpret what constitutes as 'paradise' (and yes, heaven) in different ways. I'm sure there are theological masterpieces exploring the concept.

 

As I understand it (and keeping it simple) this is a place of eternal bliss where you are at ease in the love of God.

 

(N.B I am expecting that many will probably disagree with my definition and wish to add or subtract from it)

 

Now, consider this conundrum:

 

1) There is a Christian woman who leads a good life.

2) She has a son who she loves dearly. She brings him up to be a good, loving individual.

3) As he gets older, he questions the faith he has been bought up with. He sees Christianity as the creation of mankind, and although he recognises some good in its teachings, he no longer wishes to subscribe to that belief.

4) He becomes an atheist.

5) His mother is heartbroken but respects his wishes. Everyday she prays for him to rediscover his faith. One day, she dies.

6) Years later, the son- who has lead a good, honourable life- dies too.

7) The mother, being a devout Christian, goes to heaven and paradise.

8) The son, rejecting Christ, does not.

 

How could the mother then be in paradise knowing she would be apart from her son for all eternity?

 

What's more, if the son is punished in hell for his atheism then how could the mother be in paradise knowing he would be in pain and torment for all eternity?

 

Surely- as a loving parent- she could never truly be happy without being next to her son?

 

Thus, how can she be in paradise?

[Philosoraptor]

I find the rules of religion odd myself. I don't subscribe to any religion though. I live a good life, have good intentions, and try to help people when I can. If that's not good enough then I guess I belong in hell.

 

I don't see how a good person with a good heart could be punished for not bowing before a god.

[TaraMaiden]

to my mind, they're a constant, here and now....

to illustrate:

 

 

An enlightened lama sat on his zafu and one of his disciples came to him.

"Master," he said, as he bowed, "there is a soldier at the gate who states he has travelled many months to seek an audience with you. He declares himself to be a great Overlord, but I'm not sure....."

The master bade his disciple admit the soldier.

When the door opened, a tall imposing man walked in, his sword by his side.

But he was filthy, dishevelled, was distinctly malodorous and obviously had kept the company of a good but well-ridden horse....his clothes carried a pervasive stench, and he had obviously not washed either them - or himself - for some time.

He stood before the Guru, and bowed, lightly.

"Master!" he boomed,"I have been travelling for many months to find you.I have sought you far and wide, and have journeyed for days, without stopping, because, I seek the answer to a question posed to me by a prisoner I captured. My manservant, who had heard of your fame, informed me you have the answer I seek.

Tell me - What is Hell? and what is Heaven?"

The guru gazed up at him, with a calm countenance, then began his reply.

"You filthy, stinking wretched creature....! You dare to come before me, your sword by your side, smelling worse than a rotten pigsty, in this hallowed temple, and demand to know things which your empty, ignorant and stupid head cannot possibly ever comprehend?!? Get out of my sight! you are not even worthy to keep a dog company while it forages for scraps in garbage, such is your lowly stench!"

the Overlord, incensed and enraged by such an insolent and arrogant welcome, instinctively drew his sword, and swung it high above his head, ready to strike a fatal blow.

 

"That, " quietly spoke the Guru, without flinching, "is Hell."

 

The Overlord was so astonished by this calm riposte, in the face of certain, swift and sudden death, that he was brought to an immediate halt, in mid-swing, so profound was his astonishment. He calmly bought the sword down to his side....

"and that, "continued the Guru, a flicker of a smile fleeting across his face, "is Heaven."

[otherfish]

When asked for advice/opinion on topics like these I like to start with one simple question....

 

What did I/you do to become a living-breathing human being? Answer: Nothing. I/you had no choice, no control over becoming life. So, therefore, you have to have a creator. There had to be a God that thought enough about you to create you for his purpose. Its a simple rule of life in order for something to be created there must be a creator. There is a GOD, one GOD, a loving GOD, who created me/you AND He created you/me for His glory only. We are not on this earth to take our own center-stage, our lives are about bringing glory to Him. So, many times in life, people argue the no-God theory from the human mind aspect. The human mind can only take you so far...you are able to get the breakthrough when you step into the spiritual mind. God doesnt think like us, we are limited and He is limitless.

 

So, to answer the first part of your question. Once "the mother" is in Heaven (paradise) with God, her Creator, she understands that her life was not about her son but to ultimately be in Heaven with the Son, the Son of God. Children are a gift from God to the parent but children belong to God. If the child "belonged" to the parent then she could of made the decision to bring her son to Heaven with her. Also, if she was a true Christian while here on earth she understood that truth. Heaven is about being with God in all of the joy, peace that the human mind cannot even begin to comprehend.

 

As for your 2nd question....I can absolutely with 100pct assureity promise you that there are NO atheists in Hell. When an earthly atheists dies and is commanded to Hell because he didnt believe in the one, true God at the time of death he becomes instantly aware that Christianity/Christ IS NO myth. Just like the joy/peace/love of true Heaven is incomprehensible to the human mind....the same goes for true Hell, the human mind cannot comprehend the torment/torture/awfulness of Hell.

[Forever Learning]

I don't see how a good person with a good heart could be punished for not bowing before a god.

 

Me neither. This is a very primitive way to sum it up, but sometimes primitive is just fine.

 

So my very primitive theory is this: I figure, I am a pretty nice person.

 

So God would have to be at least as nice as me, and most likely much nicer.

 

No way is God some d1ckhead.

 

That would make me better than God!

 

So God has got to be extremely nice.

 

And that leaves me with a good feeling about God.

[KathyM]

In heaven, we will accept God's will as His right to make. He has given us a choice in whether or not to follow him. He has given everyone the opportunity to follow Him. We will accept His right and His judgment. We will understand that the souls of others do not belong to us, but they belong to God. Those who were temporarily entrusted to us on earth will not have the emotional individual connection to us like they had on earth. We will be a community, just like the angels in heaven. God's love and presence will be all-fulfilling for us, and our soul will lack nothing in heaven. Our acceptance of God's will shall not lead us to dispair, for that person belonged to God and not to us.

[Buck Turgidson]

The agreed-upon answer seems to be: "When you're in heaven, god's 'love' is go vast that while under its influence, you will cease to care about your children's suffering unthinkable tortures in Hell."

 

What a despicable religion.

[Feelin Frisky]

Heaven/paradise fall completely apart under rational scrutiny. I can already hear the zillions of folks coming up with some sort of "energy" thingy that lives on and so forth but I think deep inside, anyone who says that is really hoping for the after-life of Abrahamic faiths.

 

How it falls apart is that it's always an ego-centric story about the one person dying and then seeing their long lost relations--assumedly unaged or unchanged since how they last saw them. But what about all these people? Aren't they busy seeing all their dead relations? Are you supposed to go around accommodating everyone who dies and fulfilling their expectations of the after life? What happens if multiple people die that you knew at different times in your life who didn't know each other? Are you supposed to appear to them at the same time bu at the age they knew you?

 

It gets to be a big unwieldy mess and you you have to ask yourself who would concoct this crazy matrix of illusion and why? How long does it really go on? Why would it go on infinitely and would you want it to if you knew it was fake and being manipulated by some "god" figure who just has this big need to medicate the good people with favorable fantasy and fry the bad people with unfavorable fantasy?

 

It becomes preposterous. So the question comes: if you die and a god shows hims or her self and says "yo, I'm real, but I'm sorry, there's no after life and you'll cease to exist in ten seconds" do you throw a fit and tell god the life he have you was not good enough? Or have you lived your life gratefully enough to say thanks, god? I choose the latter--this life is a pretty wonderful gift and should never be short-valued in favor of a someone else's myth.

[KathyM]

The agreed-upon answer seems to be: "When you're in heaven, god's 'love' is go vast that while under its influence, you will cease to care about your children's suffering unthinkable tortures in Hell."

 

What a despicable religion.

We mourn on earth for all souls lost--not just our own children. But we accept God's will, since it is His right as the Creator.

[TaraMaiden]

....I live a good life, have good intentions, and try to help people when I can. .....

I don't see how a good person with a good heart could be punished for not bowing before a god.

 

Welcome to Buddhism!!!!

 

:laugh:

[KathyM]

Heaven/paradise fall completely apart under rational scrutiny. I can already hear the zillions of folks coming up with some sort of "energy" thingy that lives on and so forth but I think deep inside, anyone who says that is really hoping for the after-life of Abrahamic faiths.

 

How it falls apart is that it's always an ego-centric story about the one person dying and then seeing their long lost relations--assumedly unaged or unchanged since how they last saw them. But what about all these people? Aren't they busy seeing all their dead relations? Are you supposed to go around accommodating everyone who dies and fulfilling their expectations of the after life? What happens if multiple people die that you knew at different times in your life who didn't know each other? Are you supposed to appear to them at the same time bu at the age they knew you?

 

It gets to be a big unwieldy mess and you you have to ask yourself who would concoct this crazy matrix of illusion and why? How long does it really go on? Why would it go on infinitely and would you want it to if you knew it was fake and being manipulated by some "god" figure who just has this big need to medicate the good people with favorable fantasy and fry the bad people with unfavorable fantasy?

 

It becomes preposterous. So the question comes: if you die and a god shows hims or her self and says "yo, I'm real, but I'm sorry, there's no after life and you'll cease to exist in ten seconds" do you throw a fit and tell god the life he have you was not good enough? Or have you lived your life gratefully enough to say thanks, god? I choose the latter--this life is a pretty wonderful gift and should never be short-valued in favor of a someone else's myth.

Don't try too hard to apply strictly logic using only a limited mind. It doesn't work. That would be like trying to build a house using only a hammer and nails. Just because you can't see something with your limited visual capacity doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Just because you can't comprehend something doesn't mean that it isn't possible.

[Buck Turgidson]

We mourn on earth for all souls lost--not just our own children. But we accept God's will, since it is His right as the Creator.

 

In other words, "might makes right."

 

I maintain my earlier evaluation of the religion's ethical value.

[KathyM]

In other words, "might makes right."

 

I maintain my earlier evaluation of the religion's ethical value.

What you fail to realize is that God has a right to decide the outcome for His creation. He decides what is ethical. He made the players, he makes the rules. Who are we to say what God is supposed to decide or what is just or right for His creation? You may not like or agree with God's decisions, but it is His right to make those decisions, not yours, not mine.

[otherfish]

Very impressive, KathyM. Very impressive.

 

The human mind, like I said earlier, is limited. I have a friend of 20+ years, he does not believe that the God of the Bible exists because he cant see him. I try to explain to him that Christianity is based on a belief, believing in what you cannot see, believing Gods spoken word.

 

My friend and I fish alot together, while we are fishing I ask him, "Do you believe there are fish under this boat?" He says, "yes". I ask him, "But you cannot see the fish how do you know they are there?" Its the same thing with God, when you let go of what the human mind understand and step into spiritual understanding you are able to spiritually see God. Many times in my life, I have needed, trusted and aksed God for help and he has never failed me. Of course, if God appeared in the sky with a flock of Angels and yelled, "I live" then, of course, the whole world would believe (well, even then, maybe not all) but God commands us to believe in Him and who He says He is. That is how you enter the Kingdom of Heaven, believe.

 

If I believed that there was NO God, Im not sure that I would even want to live any longer...what would be the purpose?

 

Im curious, for conversation sake, what do some of you believe happens to us humans when we die?

 

**So many times these threads become insulting to other members. I feel that there are some mature adults here and I ask that we all just communicate and respect each other's opinions....thanks guys/girls.

[TaraMaiden]

HEY!!!

 

This is a thread about the definition of heaven, not a thread to justify beliefs. don't go off topic, guys - you'll get it shut it down and get an infraction.....

[TaraMaiden]

Sorry, otherfish, didn't see you coming....

[otherfish]

Haha....no worries....

[Feelin Frisky]

Don't try too hard to apply strictly logic using only a limited mind. It doesn't work. That would be like trying to build a house using only a hammer and nails. Just because you can't see something with your limited visual capacity doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Just because you can't comprehend something doesn't mean that it isn't possible.

 

In other words don't use the basic logic I come with and just yield to any concoction of beliefs that appears to have more than on person believing in it?

 

Thanks. I'll take my chances with "god-given" logic and again, be grateful for the one reality I'm sure I've been granted. It's enough for me.

[otherfish]

FF, ..... and based on Christian beliefs my God gives you the free-will to make that unfortunate choice.

[KathyM]

In other words don't use the basic logic I come with and just yield to any concoction of beliefs that appears to have more than on person believing in it?

 

Thanks. I'll take my chances with "god-given" logic and again, be grateful for the one reality I'm sure I've been granted. It's enough for me.

I would highly recommend you explore your spiritual side, and not limit yourself to only believing that which you can only see or have concrete proof of. I have witnessed miracles, have had my prayers answered, have known people who could speak in tongues (languages which they had never before learned), have known people who had the gift of prophesy. There is a whole world that you are ignoring because you don't want to open your mind to the possibility that something may exist that you are not currently aware of. Just keep an open mind, that's all I'm suggesting. And maybe give some thought and research into the possibility that there is a truth out there that you are not currently aware of.

[SelfCentered]

Well I suppose it was inevitable that this was going to open a big can of worms.

 

The general response seems to be that the mother would feel nothing for her son or her old existence as God's love supersedes everything else.

 

That seems to me to be a terrible thing to believe in.

 

Why would God give me the free will to love a son/daughter only to demand I relinquish that love when I passed into heaven?

 

Seems cruel.

 

All in all it reaffirms my atheism. Sadly that wasn't my intention. I simply wanted to see how religious folk defined their paradise, whether they perceived any loop holes in the rules etc. All I see now is a God character demanding 100% affection above all else, like some autocratic despot.

[TaraMaiden]

Well I suppose it was inevitable that this was going to open a big can of worms. ...

 

yes....

 

Whether you write "God's a pile of crock, and he' s off my Christmas card list" or "He is our omnipotent saviour and this is what/why I believe" - you're asking for a whole cannery.....

[KathyM]

Well I suppose it was inevitable that this was going to open a big can of worms.

 

You asked the question, so gotta be prepared for the answer. If you don't want to hear it, don't ask.

 

The general response seems to be that the mother would feel nothing for her son or her old existence as God's love supersedes everything else.

The mother mourns for her child on earth. In heaven, there will be no mourning. Would you have felt better if I said we will spend eternity mourning the loss of our loved ones? That's not how it works. Sorry to disappoint you. When we are filled with the presence of God, our soul will lack nothing. If you find that troublesome, I guess that's your problem.

 

That seems to me to be a terrible thing to believe in.

 

Why would God give me the free will to love a son/daughter only to demand I relinquish that love when I passed into heaven?

I don't know the answer to that. Someday I will.

 

Seems cruel.

Why do you expect God to show favor to those who reject him? Does it make more sense for you that He open with welcome arms all who have spent their life on earth rejecting Him, ignoring Him, disobeying Him, badmouthing Him, and denying Him? He has offered to forgive all of that, and everything in your past if you will only acknowledge Him and make the effort to follow His will. That's not much to ask, really, for what He has to offer in return. But if you never take that step, then you really can't blame Him for rejecting those who refused to accept Him. He's done everything to open that door for you. If you refuse to walk through it, you have no right to complain what happens on the other side after the door is closed.

 

All in all it reaffirms my atheism. Sadly that wasn't my intention. I simply wanted to see how religious folk defined their paradise, whether they perceived any loop holes in the rules etc. All I see now is a God character demanding 100% affection above all else, like some autocratic despot.

Of course it was your intention to reaffirm your justification for your position. Would you have felt differently and suddenly become a believer if you thought we would be spending eternity in mourning? God doesn't demand 100% affection. He knows we are human, flawed, and sinful, and we always will be while on earth. He doesn't demand anything. He gives us a choice to follow Him or not. Those who choose not to, really have no case to cry foul about the consequences of that decision.

[otherfish]

SC, did you forget that you posed some questions? Its like you put those questions out there and when you didnt get the respones you were expecting you sort regretted or backtracked a bit. Confusing?

 

People are putting their opinions/beliefs...its up to you to decide what you believe to be right. Topics like these will always open a can, its like debating abortion, capital punishment or gun laws. You are going to get varying opinions.

 

My response to why the childs mother would feel nothing for her son is because I know that once a believer is in the presence of God that believer knows that it was about more than her life with her son. It was ALL about God and Him only. Again, this is where you have to go beyond the human mind and step into the spiritual realm. We did not create ourselves. God created us for His purposes. Why would He create us and then just say, "Go ahead go do your own thing....youre on your own, you get no help from me." That makes no sense to who God is and says He is. He creates us with a VOID and vacancy that ONLY He can fill. Over history, man in his natural selfish way, has looked to money, fame, fortune, sex, drugs, occupation, etc. to fill that void but it cant be done only God can fill it.

 

Understand this, Religion does not save you and land you in Heaven. Its the relationship that God is looking for, the sacrifice of each our lives for Him. Like it or not, its the truth and God sets the rules for his perfect way of doing things. Most of which, the human mind....cannot explain and I admit I dont have the answers to every question but what makes common sense is just that .... common sense. God makes it very easy to get to Heaven. Tks for the thread, tho.......

 

Sorry, Tara, for fading off-topic for a minute...

[TaraMaiden]

hey, don't mind me.... it's the verbal spiteful spats that get me... I think your post is pretty spot on as it happens.

 

Ok, so I'm an ex- Roman catholic turned Buddhist. I was part of that faith for over 40 years - and active too, I might add - before I decided to change direction.

 

So why did I change direction?

 

That's my business.

 

But all I know is that in this huge boat we call our own Spiritual Journey - there's plenty of room for all of us to sit and have tea together....