Women over 30: how long would you wait for a proposal?

[Dust]

Some times I see Star Gazer posting in a thread and I just have to watch the smack down... Eternal you going take this?

[Eternal Sunshine]

We will see. I know us better than anyone. I am still not willing to wait beyond 1.5 years. He will either come through or he won't.

 

It's not obvious right now but it soon will be.

 

I want to live my life with no regrets.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I have grown up a lot through this whole process.

 

I am more mature than I ever have been. I am strong enough to deal with any outcome. I know I am not going to fall apart whatever the outcome.

[lino]

Sorry ladies, but I won't even fathom popping the question until 2-3 years together. You all might think the guy doesn't love you, or he's avoiding "growing up", but let me give it to you from my viewpoint:

 

1) I graduated college in my mid-20s, and it honestly took me until my mid-30s to finally be really established in a solid career, condo, etc. I graduated into one recession, had a break with the dotcom boom, then was out of work again for several years only to go back at a large paycut and struggle until I finally caught up. I even moved out of my home in my late 20s to only come back home to regroup for five years and save up the down payment.

 

I used to think I was alone or a rarity, but especially now it's more commonplace. College grads aren't landing work easily anymore, and many who do get very low pay and thus can't fully live on it. So all you women who want an "established man" are going to have to really compete to get the few who do well right off the bat.

 

2) I spent most of my 20s and early 30s being rejected and alone. I had a few RLs that didn't last long, but as I've spoken of before, I was the nice guy who was rejected because I was nice (as well as a bland dresser and socially inept in some ways, etc.)

 

Dating never really kicked off for me until my early 30s.

 

3) Too many women wasted their own 20s rejecting guys like me while trying to tame the wrong guys into RLs that never worked out.

 

I mentioned how dating never really kicked off well for me until my early 30s. I believe part of that was now all the women were looking for husbands over hot temporary boyfriends. The problem was how many of those women were royally "damaged" by their past mistakes. Psychological problems, trust issues, daddy issues, children from douchebags who ran out, no college education, no job or career to show for her life, etc.

 

So we men who have been rejected so much now should quickly, openly, and willingly pop the question to all those women who not only didn't see us as "good enough" in their past, but also now have more red flags from those past decisions? Right.

 

4) Divorce laws are still slanted against men. That's a big reason enough to take marriage seriously if you're a man.

 

 

 

I'll be honest, I won't propose to anyone until we've been together for 2-3 years. I've been toyed and burned too many times in my past for me to just pop the question like a fool after 6-12 months of dating, and I see plenty of those who did now divorced to show me I'm right in my thinking.

 

Some women of course will say that no woman will ever be with me by my logic...but look where I'm at now. I didn't propose to my fiance until we were together for 3 years...because I felt it was the right time. If she ever tried a "bling ultimatum" on me, I would have ended it, let her walk, and not look back. I'd happily grow old and die alone before I let someone force me into a scenario I am not comfortable with.

 

I take marriage very seriously...which is why I know I'll be an amazing husband. It's also why I won't propose unless I am sure this is the right woman, and you can't see that after 6-12 months.

 

For all the 30something women who are hit with the baby rabies and see their friends all married off, I ask you..."what have you been doing from age 18 until now?"

 

Were you seeking a decent man to marry while pursuing the education and career? Or "living it up", then realizing there wouldn't be some amazing gentleman waiting for you at age 27?

 

This is why I tell young women not to spend their 20s "living it up" and believing there's plenty of time. Forget the flings and hot guys you claim you'll never marry...find Mr Right, and then go all the way when you get older.

 

I believe there's a lot more men out there like me...ones who are willing to die alone before being forced into marriage when they're not ready.

 

 

Excellent post!!!

 

Only an absolute fool would marry a woman simply because of some ridiculous time constraints she has.

[Kamille]

I have grown up a lot through this whole process.

 

I am more mature than I ever have been. I am strong enough to deal with any outcome. I know I am not going to fall apart whatever the outcome.

 

Great! Now that you know you can handle the outcome, you can let the fears you've had about it ending go. You can now focus your energies on making the relationship stronger. You can figure out how you yourself can contribute to your own happiness in this relationship. How best can you regulate your moods? How best can you notice what is going right for the two of you? How can you contribute to making this relationship stronger, thereby ensuring your happiness as well as his?

[Emilia]

We will see. I know us better than anyone. I am still not willing to wait beyond 1.5 years. He will either come through or he won't.

 

It's not obvious right now but it soon will be.

 

I want to live my life with no regrets.

 

Life doesn't work like that. Just because you have a schedule, it doesn't mean the world and your boyfriend will have to conform. There is no way you know enough about him through such a short period of time, it hasn't even been a year yet. The reason why most people mention 2-3 years is because you need that sort of time scale to see how a person handles any eventuality that may come up and to see whether you are compatible.

 

The fact that you put such a specific timeline on it shows how little you know about long term relationships and how you are not ready for marriage yet. You have absolutely no idea how hard it is to work through the downs as well as the ups, you certainly don't have enough life experience for that yet.

[irc333]

Yeah, I get a kick out of some women that put time lines on things, there's this one woman I knew, kinda went out with her as friends, she was around 27 at the time.

 

I wa s in my mid 30's. We started takling about dating and marriage and she says, "Well, I plan on being married by age 30 at least.

 

And I said, "Um, and you know this....how?? Because I'm in my mid 30's, and well....I've never been married, how do YOU know you won't wind up single while in your 40's??

 

For some reason, she was SO sure about herself that she woudl find herself a husband by a certain age.

 

Life doesn't work like that. Just because you have a schedule, it doesn't mean the world and your boyfriend will have to conform. There is no way you know enough about him through such a short period of time, it hasn't even been a year yet. The reason why most people mention 2-3 years is because you need that sort of time scale to see how a person handles any eventuality that may come up and to see whether you are compatible.

 

The fact that you put such a specific timeline on it shows how little you know about long term relationships and how you are not ready for marriage yet. You have absolutely no idea how hard it is to work through the downs as well as the ups, you certainly don't have enough life experience for that yet.

[serial muse]

I guess it's also something he said a while ago. He said that if you don't know within a year if someone is "the one" then you will never know.

 

This is a beautiful and romantic thought and everything...but it always strikes me how the people who say this sort of thing with such calm certainty haven't actually experienced this feeling. It's all hypothetical. They're just certain that they will know, for some reason.

 

I mean, it would be awesome if life worked this way. And I'm not saying that true love doesn't exist or that you can't be head over heels for someone or that you can't have a relatively low-drama relationship.

 

But to suggest that the very definition of true love is that it must therefore run smooth, and that once one has latched on to the right person it's all full speed ahead from there or it isn't true love...well, the only things standing in the way of that ideal are Shakespeare and, you know, actual people.

 

(This also goes for the "I will be married by 30 or die trying" mindset...I mean, it's nice to have a goal, but sometimes life just happens.)

Edited January 5, 2012 by serial muse

[zengirl]

I have no doubt that he loves me deeply. None at all. He shows it every day in words and actions. He also has zero doubt about his love for me. But love and marriage are really not the same thing.

 

This is very true. Love is an essential component of marriage, but just one component; there are many others -- less romantic, sure, but no less important. A good point to remember.

 

We have had a lot of conflict, mostly because of the past baggage. We have successfully resolved most of it. We had a major breakthrough over the Christmas break. He is incredibly good at reading people and emotions. He observed me interact with my family a lot and has suggested the root cause of my insecurity, erratic emotions and instability. What he said just clicked with me like nothing else ever had. He would make an amazing psychologist.

 

This is a big step and I felt like a lot of my inner conflict has lifted overnight. We will see if it stands the test of time.

 

I suggest writing down something you can refer to later about these events and this feeling because it will not entirely stand the test of time. Your inner conflict will likely return, at some point, and having something you can refer to to remember this period of calm will perhaps help you click into calm. These sort of things don't work in one shot---that's why most of the time overcoming anxiety and dissonance takes strategies. The calm times are the best times to work on those strategies.

 

We have booked a trip to Europe in 7 months. He could possibly propose there. Given our particular relationship, I can fully understand his hesitation to propose right now. I feel that putting any pressure on him will cause him to run.

 

You're right not to pressure him, but I would also suggest you stop putting so much pressure on yourself so you can actually see the forest for the trees. You don't have an infinite amount of time, sure, but focusing on fear or expectation rather than what actually IS and counting your blessings will only lead to increased anxiety and recurring episodes of what has hindered you before.

 

I think I should just work on building and nurturing this relationship as much as possible in the meantime.

 

Excellent idea. Regardless of what happens later, nurturing the relationship will likely serve you well.

 

You don't have to have a proposal to have a happy ending.

 

Well, you do if what you want is marriage. I don't think there's anything wrong with having that as a goal. Love may not be a "happy ending" to some people. I agree that love and marriage are not necessarily synonymous, but everyone is allowed to have their own idea of what happiness is, so long as they're not hurting anyone. And wanting a relationship that leads to marriage is a common desire that hurts no one.

 

I guess it's also something he said a while ago. He said that if you don't know within a year if someone is "the one" then you will never know. He is also prone to impulsive romantic gestures. Like after our last fight, where he felt he was in the wrong, he got me 7 bouquets of flowers because he couldn't pick the best one - so he got all 7. I can completely see him proposing within 3 months or something for the right person.

 

He is someone that is not afraid of commitment or marriage. He says he wanted it since years ago. I did tell him about his "if you don't know within a year..." comment and he responded that our relationship wasn't exactly smooth so that rule doesn't apply. He also said the year is not up yet

 

Many men want to get married, and I think most marriage-minded men are VERY prone to hypotheticals like that (which often don't pan out). It's a pattern I've certainly seen. I wouldn't necessarily hold him to a year to the letter based on something he said spontaneously. As another poster said, it's not something he's ever DONE before, so he really doesn't know.

 

Also, a man (or woman too!) can be marriage minded and still be nervous and unsure about actually moving forward. Marriage is a huge thing. What he's telling you sounds reasonable in terms of things needed to stabilize and drama needing to be diffused before he can move forward with you. Don't get all in your head about every little comment he's ever made or what he might be like with someone else---that will only take you back to a bad place.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Only an absolute fool would marry a woman simply because of some ridiculous time constraints she has.

 

It's insensitive in the extreme to characterize a woman's ticking biological clock as a "ridiculous time constraint."

[EnigmaticClarity]

Life doesn't work like that. Just because you have a schedule, it doesn't mean the world and your boyfriend will have to conform. There is no way you know enough about him through such a short period of time, it hasn't even been a year yet. The reason why most people mention 2-3 years is because you need that sort of time scale to see how a person handles any eventuality that may come up and to see whether you are compatible.

 

The fact that you put such a specific timeline on it shows how little you know about long term relationships and how you are not ready for marriage yet. You have absolutely no idea how hard it is to work through the downs as well as the ups, you certainly don't have enough life experience for that yet.

 

It appears that many people posting responses have lost sight of the thread's context. The OP didn't create the timeframe women have to safely bear children, she just has to live with it.

 

I'm also going through this with my current girlfriend with the difference being that she's much closer to her clock running out. I'm 40 and she's 35. She really wants a kid, but she appears to have very similar issues to ES in that she goes through mood swings and freaks out on me every few weeks. I find it difficult to commit to that, yet she's got her natural deadline, so I'm not sure what to do. Having kids for me isn't a necessity (don't have any yet), but still, it'd probably be nice, so part of me wants to just go ahead with that even lacking a feeling of stability.

 

Very tough situation.

[Untouchable_Fire]

We will see. I know us better than anyone. I am still not willing to wait beyond 1.5 years. He will either come through or he won't.

It's not obvious right now but it soon will be.

I want to live my life with no regrets.

 

Look, most guys HATE being pressured into getting married.

 

If you try to force a timetable on him, then you will suffer some serious consequences. If you push someone who isn't ready into marriage, he may agree because he loves you and doesn't want to lose you. However he will also resent your ass FOREVER!

 

Or... he could just say no and call your bluff. Pretty girls are a dime a dozen and you are not going to get prettier.

 

Well, you do if what you want is marriage. I don't think there's anything wrong with having that as a goal. Love may not be a "happy ending" to some people. I agree that love and marriage are not necessarily synonymous, but everyone is allowed to have their own idea of what happiness is, so long as they're not hurting anyone. And wanting a relationship that leads to marriage is a common desire that hurts no one.

 

If all she wants is marriage, then she should save up her money and PAY some guy to marry her.

 

The problem is she wants BOTH. So she will be faced with a clear choice... which is more important to her... love or marriage.

 

I know tons of people who have a marriage, but are not happy. I can't say the same for love.

[Emilia]

It appears that many people posting responses have lost sight of the thread's context. The OP didn't create the timeframe women have to safely bear children, she just has to live with it.

 

I'm also going through this with my current girlfriend with the difference being that she's much closer to her clock running out. I'm 40 and she's 35. She really wants a kid, but she appears to have very similar issues to ES in that she goes through mood swings and freaks out on me every few weeks. I find it difficult to commit to that, yet she's got her natural deadline, so I'm not sure what to do. Having kids for me isn't a necessity (don't have any yet), but still, it'd probably be nice, so part of me wants to just go ahead with that even lacking a feeling of stability.

 

Very tough situation.

 

No I haven't lost the thread's context (if the 'some people' is a reference to me?). I am 39 years old therefore I understand what the OP is going through better than you ever can. However, it is not something she can force on anyone or mother nature. We can all sit here and be extremely understanding, it still won't change her situation.

[EnigmaticClarity]

No I haven't lost the thread's context (if the 'some people' is a reference to me?). I am 39 years old therefore I understand what the OP is going through better than you ever can.

 

Does that mean you still don't have kids at 39 but want them, or do you mean you were around ES's age looking to have kids yet hadn't found a permanent relationship yet but were looking for one like she is?

 

The advice that you can't hurry marriage is typically accurate--but not for women in their 30s. In that case, if I were a woman wanting kids, I'd probably cap my time just as ES is thinking of doing. My girlfriend has done it to me--except that unlike ES she's told me she's doing it--and I'm fine with it. If she's still creating drama by the time she feels like we've gone out long enough, I agree we should move on from each other. Makes perfect sense to me.

[EnigmaticClarity]

If you try to force a timetable on him, then you will suffer some serious consequences. If you push someone who isn't ready into marriage, he may agree because he loves you and doesn't want to lose you. However he will also resent your ass FOREVER!

 

If he does resent her, he deserves it--he should have broken up with her. It's the unfortunate short time limit imposed on women by their natural birth cycle he should be resenting, not the woman herself. If he doesn't want that to be a consideration for him, he needs to hook up with someone who has already has kids or one who doesn't want them. It's selfishly unchivalrous for a man to drag on with a woman in her 30s who wants kids when he doesn't have a reason to believe their relationship will work out after a year or two.

Edited January 5, 2012 by EnigmaticClarity

[Emilia]

Does that mean you still don't have kids at 39 but want them, or do you mean you were around ES's age looking to have kids yet hadn't found a permanent relationship yet but were looking for one like she is?

 

 

I mean that I'm at the cusp of the ability of having children but a few years ago I made the conscious decision that I wouldn't allow broodiness to control my life in a way that it does for so many women and force settling down that way. It's not just whether I can 'make' the guy, it's also that I see how many women pick the wrong one for this very reason. When I knew at the age of 35 I wanted to experience more of life (lived in Africa for a while, etc) I decided that sensibly probably it was my chance of having a family gone.

[zengirl]

If all she wants is marriage, then she should save up her money and PAY some guy to marry her.

 

The problem is she wants BOTH. So she will be faced with a clear choice... which is more important to her... love or marriage.

 

I know tons of people who have a marriage, but are not happy. I can't say the same for love.

 

I don't think one necessarily has to choose -- I did outline that sometimes one has to understand and examine one's actions and priorities in my Catch-22 speech above. And I agree with you that pressuring someone into marriage -- whether it works or not, honestly -- is probably not good. Nor am I sure time caps are the way to go, really (though in some circumstances, I think they're a good idea).

 

Time caps are complex. But when I have career goals, if I'm not meeting them somewhere, I put a reasonable time cap on how long I'll stay there and "see what happens," and I think you can do the same thing with relationships. What I wouldn't do was tell the other person my exact time cap, though I would make it clear to my partner (or my boss in the work scenario) what my goals were and so forth, and I would theoretically have been given the idea that we had similar goals when entering into the situation, but you never do know, really.

 

As we've said, love is just ONE part of marriage, and if you want a loving marriage, and not just love, you have to prioritize additional (not-so-romantic) things. Including time, to a degree. I think the OP's anxiety about it is hindering her, but there are still some realities to face. "I love you, but I want to get married and you don't," is a reasonable reason for a breakup, I think. There's a thread in the Cohabitating/Marriage forum where a girl asks if it's fair that her BF broke up with her when she said no to his proposal, and my answer was, "Absolutely!"

 

At the same time, it's totally fair for a person who is waiting on any partner to be ready for marriage --- when they are totally ready for marriage --- to say that their relationship is not leading towards marriage and thus not right for them. In ES's case, I think she's putting the cart before the horse because the relationship has not had any long periods of stability and ANYONE would be a fool to enter a marriage under those circumstances, but I don't think it's wrong to say you need both love and marriage for your idea of a 'happy ending' was my point.

[Els]

It appears that many people posting responses have lost sight of the thread's context. The OP didn't create the timeframe women have to safely bear children, she just has to live with it.

 

I'm also going through this with my current girlfriend with the difference being that she's much closer to her clock running out. I'm 40 and she's 35. She really wants a kid, but she appears to have very similar issues to ES in that she goes through mood swings and freaks out on me every few weeks. I find it difficult to commit to that, yet she's got her natural deadline, so I'm not sure what to do. Having kids for me isn't a necessity (don't have any yet), but still, it'd probably be nice, so part of me wants to just go ahead with that even lacking a feeling of stability.

 

Very tough situation.

 

Insightful post. I was going to respond with 'when people need relationships to go exactly as planned, and not a bit slower, and choose to dispose of anything that does not conform because 'there is someone else out there who can give this to me quicker', they often end up fulfilling their own dreaded prophecy and ending up alone'. However, I do see a point in your posts. Often people make women out to be the bad person in pushing for children and marriage, when women themselves are being stalked by the clock. They cannot change biology.

 

Regarding the bolded in your post, though, I would be wary. A man's age does not affect the child as much as the woman's, but it still does. Children born to old men are also more prone to genetic defects and diseases. Many men do not realize this, and believe themselves perfectly capable of conceiving perfectly healthy children way into their 60s and 70s. This is not usually the case.

[EnigmaticClarity]

A man's age does not affect the child as much as the woman's, but it still does. Children born to old men are also more prone to genetic defects and diseases. Many men do not realize this, and believe themselves perfectly capable of conceiving perfectly healthy children way into their 60s and 70s. This is not usually the case.

 

I didn't realize this, although it doesn't end up mattering to me because I wouldn't have a kid past 45 or 50 anyway. Seems unfair to put the risk of an emotional burden--and potentially a time and financial burden--of a parent needing end-of-life care on a teenager or a young adult by having kids at such a late age.

[Untouchable_Fire]

In ES's case, I think she's putting the cart before the horse because the relationship has not had any long periods of stability and ANYONE would be a fool to enter a marriage under those circumstances, but I don't think it's wrong to say you need both love and marriage for your idea of a 'happy ending' was my point.

 

Marriage is more likely to hurt a relationship than help it.

 

What ES needs to be asking herself is... Why does marriage feel important?

 

Is it the social convention? Religious convictions? Financial security? ... ect.

 

With very few exceptions it IS wrong to require a love/marriage combo in order to be happy. Fact is that the reason's for wanting marriage are often VERY self centered... which is the complete opposite of love. You can't be that selfish and love someone at the same time.

 

If she loves him, then she won't care if marriage is in the picture or not. Real love is not self serving like that.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Fact is that the reason's for wanting marriage are often VERY self centered... which is the complete opposite of love. You can't be that selfish and love someone at the same time.

 

You can't use this argument due to hypocrisy, as the reasons against marriage are even MORE self-centered. Moreover, if you're talking about kids as the OP is, there's another consideration with marriage--commitment to a more stable environment for the child. If that means nothing to someone who's against marriage, then they're even more self-centered than you're describing.

 

Having said that, I don't believe marriage is always necessary nor that marriage has to be unnaturally forced to last the entire time a child is in the picture. I'm just saying you can't use selfishness as an argument AGAINST marriage, as avoiding it means you've got quite the stranglehold on selfish behavior in the relationship.

[Untouchable_Fire]

I didn't realize this, although it doesn't end up mattering to me because I wouldn't have a kid past 45 or 50 anyway. Seems unfair to put the risk of an emotional burden--and potentially a time and financial burden--of a parent needing end-of-life care on a teenager or a young adult by having kids at such a late age.

 

That isn't entirely true. While older men having kids does increase risks... we are not talking huge increases. Plus they have shown, diet, physical fitness, and living conditions play a huge role.

 

Hugh Hefner may have better sperm than a 23yo guy. Then again he may not.

 

I would also add that many of the worst birth defects such as down syndrome do not increase in frequency with a man's age.

[EnigmaticClarity]

That isn't entirely true. While older men having kids does increase risks... we are not talking huge increases.

 

This sounds reasonably logical, but assume your kid ends up being a dwarf, which googling tells me is one of the conditions for which there's an increased risk of in older fathers. If you had him at 30, he won't blame you...but if you have him at 60, he probably will. And you may also blame yourself. Crappy situation to ponder.

[Stung]

ES, my husband and I married on the fourth anniversary of our first date...which doesn't count the several months we spent as friends/in correspondence before that first real date. We started talking about marriage after we'd been living together for about a year, after we'd been dating for about 1.5 years...but neither of us felt ready at that point, we were just having discussions about our relationship potential, not making concrete plans. We were very in love with each other almost from the start, and exclusive, and moved in together fairly quickly after 6 months of intense LDR, but neither of us are the type of person who would marry someone we hadn't been with for at least a few years. We had both lived with previous long-term lovers, and I had even been engaged before, but we had turned away from those relationships rather than making the mistake of marrying someone who wasn't right.

 

We'd been living together 2 years, together 2.5 (again, excluding the several months we'd been communicating before our first real date), when I became pregnant with our son, which is when my husband first proposed. I didn't want him to propose just because I was pregnant, so I said no that first time. I should have known better, as we had been raising his daughter from a previous relationship together, and I already knew neither of us actually believed that marriage was necessary as a framework for raising children if the parents are responsible and committed. He ended up proposing twice more and I accepted when our son was a month old. When we did marry, I was 34 and he was 39.

 

 

 

 

 

I just want you women to understand we men do not think the same way you all do. It's not even the financial risks, but emotional. A marrying man (not a guy who wants to be single forever) wants to know this woman won't get GIGS or he'll wake up 2 years later and she's 200 lbs heavier or she pushes him away every time he wants to be intimate. He wants to know the woman he marries will REMAIN the woman he married until death do them part.

 

Well, to be fair, I think most people of both sexes want the person they commit to to remain basically true to what they fell in love with in the first place. Very few people welcome things like massive weight gains or being totally cut off from intimacy, and there is emotional risk inherent in major life decisions for everybody. However, all relationships and people change over time, in one way or another, that's just the nature of the beast. I fully agree that it's important to stick with a person for at least a couple of years to see how they roll with change, before committing to them in something as serious as marriage. I accept that other people make faster decisions that seem to work well for them, but that's something I just can't understand personally--agreeing to marry someone you've been with less than at least two years just seems like folly to me, unless perhaps you're talking about an elderly couple.

 

Love is an essential component of marriage, but just one component; there are many others -- less romantic, sure, but no less important. A good point to remember.

 

...

 

Many men want to get married, and I think most marriage-minded men are VERY prone to hypotheticals like that (which often don't pan out). It's a pattern I've certainly seen. I wouldn't necessarily hold him to a year to the letter based on something he said spontaneously. As another poster said, it's not something he's ever DONE before, so he really doesn't know.

 

Also, a man (or woman too!) can be marriage minded and still be nervous and unsure about actually moving forward. Marriage is a huge thing. What he's telling you sounds reasonable in terms of things needed to stabilize and drama needing to be diffused before he can move forward with you. Don't get all in your head about every little comment he's ever made or what he might be like with someone else---that will only take you back to a bad place.

 

Agreed so hard.

[Untouchable_Fire]

You can't use this argument due to hypocrisy, as the reasons against marriage are even MORE self-centered. Moreover, if you're talking about kids as the OP is, there's another consideration with marriage--commitment to a more stable environment for the child. If that means nothing to someone who's against marriage, then they're even more self-centered than you're describing.

 

I don't see how you can argue that marriage provides a more stable environment for raising children. Nearly 70% of children will see their parents divorce at some point, and being married makes that process much more bitter and nasty vs. non-married parents.

 

Plus having married parents prevents millions of children from accessing government aid programs which are potentially very beneficial. My cousins had free healthcare, free college, free school lunches... ect because their parents just cohabitated.