Women over 30: how long would you wait for a proposal?

[vsmini]

I am terrified of being single again and even more terrified because I would let my mum down.

 

I have also grown attached to him.

 

Well fear can keep a lot of people in the same stuck position they are in. That's most likely the main reason you are with him...and that is not a true relationship make.

I think it's horrible that you think you would be letting your mom down by not marrying this guy. Either you have a very distorted view of what your mother expects for you or your mother is a poor piece of work that just wants to see her daughter with ANYBODY rather than with the man that truly makes her happy and is right for her.

I think you would also let your mom down if you ended up getting a divorce rather than just "breaking up." Because that is surely what will happen if you just stay with this guy simply becasue you're afraid of being single.

[vsmini]

Eh Ariadne, we have enough sex right now.

 

We did it nearly every day on holidays and around 3-4 times a week during normal weeks. We even do it few times a day sometimes.

 

I am terrified of being single again and even more terrified because I would let my mum down.

 

I have also grown attached to him.

 

Well fear can keep a lot of people in the same stuck position they are in. That's most likely the main reason you are with him...and that is not a true relationship make.

I think it's horrible that you think you would be letting your mom down by not marrying this guy. Either you have a very distorted view of what your mother expects for you or your mother is a poor piece of work that just wants to see her daughter with ANYBODY rather than with a man that truly makes her happy and is right for her.

I think you would also let your mom down if you ended up getting a divorce rather than just "breaking up." Because that is surely what will happen if you just stay with this guy simply becasue you're afraid of being single.

[zengirl]

I am slightly annoyed that bf keeps constantly talking about our future. It's often "when we buy a house together.." or talking about how we want to bring up our kids (what values are important, what our parents did wrong with us and what they did right etc). How natural and right everything feels and where we will live when we retire...

 

It's annoying because he doesn't know if he wants to marry me.

 

That's because for him (and many, many other people -- I might even say "most") going through all those 'someday' conversations happens on the way to thinking about whether he's ready to marry you or not. I can actually identify with your POV here, because I tend to be a "That's not been decided yet, so I'm not putting any eggs in that basket!" kind of person myself, much like it sounds you are, but make no mistake: That's just a defensive mechanism that is not attractive to other people or even particularly healthy. I channeled my energies into zen instead, which is all about living in the moment, and thus tried to turn my defensive mechanisms about uncertainty into a positive force in my life, though there are many ways to do that different than what I did.

 

But be assured when you do things like this, you're pushing him farther away. Though, to be honest, it sounds like you don't really want to marry him anyway. You just want him to want to marry you. A very selfish idea, if you're not all-in yourself.

 

Or, in short, what anne said:

 

Why do you expect a proposal when you talk to your bf like this? Your actions tell him that there is no future in this relationship.

 

You don't know this -- that ES was a terrible host or it was at all her fault.

 

I know she wasn't a great host, as she admitted to tuning the mother up when the mother wanted to tell her stories (a generally friendly gesture). As I said, it's entirely possible that the mother was also awful to ES, but it sounds like neither of them took the high road. AND I said I really didn't know to what degree it was anyone's fault. . . already said that because we're only seeing snippets of this actual "problem," which now ES says she's fine with.

 

The fact that the mother's opinion of ES changed over the course of the visit doesn't necessarily mean that ES was a bad host either. For an introvert it can be extremely exhausting to be "on" all the time.

 

It is true that it is likely a personality clash (I said that too!). At the same time, if you are a host, especially to someone as important as your live-in SO's family, I think you have to sacrifice and suffer through the exhaustion of being "on" all the time if that's what makes the trip good. Those are my values, but they may not be yours. If ES was bending over backwards and the mom still didn't like you, I'd get it, but instead ES came in her complaining about the Mom telling stories 12 hours a day. That's not "bad" behavior. It's actually sociable behavior---whether the stories annoyed ES or not---and ES's choice to "tune it out" added to the conflict. Whether it 'caused' the conflict, I cannot say.

 

In-laws are OFTEN draining guests for everyone. I do not think ES handled it in the most appropriate way if she cares about his parents' opinion of her.

 

What's disturbing to me is that her boyfriend hasn't reassured her that his mother's opinion won't affect his commitment to ES. At the age of 31, he should be making his own decisions, especially when his mother is as controlling as it sounds like she is.

 

He has assured her as much, but he hasn't said he would avoid his mother or cause unnecessary conflict there to pacify ES. He's walking the line as best he can, between two women who are likely both acting like children. I wouldn't be surprised if his mother was at least difficult and fraught with drama to be honest---if he hadn't learned it somewhere, he wouldn't have been able to put up with the drama this long.

 

SG, he made unprompted comments about my weight number of times. He called some of my friends "hot" number of times too (completely unprompted). He just blurts out everything he thinks/feels with no regard on how it will affect me. Of course, that throws me in a negative loop and I get hurt and start to distance.

 

Well, that's a problem, depending on how it happens. And it sounds like an unresolved one---I'm not sure how you can even be worrying about marriage when problems seem to crop up in this relationships constantly.

[Mme. Chaucer]

If you read your threads over the past 2 months, you will see examples of rapid-fire "splitting." Your boyfriend and relationship are very good (from less than a week ago):

 

Yes norajane, he has been pretty wonderful to me.

 

He has made me a part of his life in every way possible, except giving me the ring. He got offended that I would feel like this is wasting time. He is taking it very seriously (he even arranged for our parents to meet even though they live very far away). I know that he does love me deeply and that he is committed.

 

I love him too and part of me thinks that what we have now, being together and waking up together every day is enough. A piece of paper isn't going to change anything. Yet, another part wants a marriage proposal. I am 33 now. I am worried that I will run out of time to have kids (that's actually more important to me than marriage itself).

 

to painting him as a weak, asinine boor.

 

Back and forth, over and over.

 

Nobody is a perfect saint, and when your boyfriend exhibits any of his flaws in sync with the times your emotional cycle is ramping up, he becomes the bad guy. Which is inevitable, since we all have many faults.

 

I am not "taking his side." I don't believe that we have ANY idea whatsoever about the characteristics of your boyfriend, except for ONE THING:

 

He must love you very, very much in order to put up with all of this.

 

If you can't or won't stop changing your opinion of the man you say (sometimes) that you love deeply and want to marry, how will you ever be able to even come CLOSE to knowing whether the two of you are really compatible? To do that, you would need to have the ability to consider him as a fully sentient being, apart from how you react to him from moment to moment.

 

He does not even really exist as a 3 dimensional human being in your eyes, it seems. He only exists as a mirror relating to how you feel at any given moment.

[Mme. Chaucer]

even more terrified because I would let my mum down.

 

A few hours (or days - I forget) ago, you said your mom told you to cut your losses now. Which is it?

 

Probably, your mom really wants you to do what is the best for you.

 

I have also grown attached to him.

 

What happened to the love?

[Mme. Chaucer]

I totally disagree that it's impossible for us to know what her boyfriend is like.

 

I believe that every single tidbit of information we have on this guy is completely colored by the emotional condition of ES at that given moment.

 

Of course, all of us are showing the other members of LS what's going on, and the people in our lives, through the skewed perspective of our own point of view.

 

But some people don't even really see others as free-standing individuals, only as mirrors for themselves.

 

I think you do that as well.

[xxoo]

But some people don't even really see others as free-standing individuals, only as mirrors for themselves.

 

Did anyone else notice that Choppedkittens list of "what bf is like" could be a list of "what ES is like"?

 

Are they really that alike? Or are we getting a picture of this guy that is a mirror of ES?

[Mme. Chaucer]

Did anyone else notice that Choppedkittens list of "what bf is like" could be a list of "what ES is like"?

 

Are they really that alike? Or are we getting a picture of this guy that is a mirror of ES?

 

It's a perfect illustration of what I am saying.

[Emilia]

 

But some people don't even really see others as free-standing individuals, only as mirrors for themselves.

 

 

How do you mean? Same as projecting?

[xxoo]

Both ES and her boyfriend are romantic, emotional and affectionate. They both need a lot of affection from their partners and they are sensitive to small signs of distance. They are both somewhat insecure.

 

The main differences: ES is an introvert while her boyfriend is very social. ES is not a people pleaser, and she finds it difficult to be continually "on" around others. ES has a darker side to her personality and is more prone to depression than her boyfriend. While they are both somewhat moody, ES's feelings are more unstable than her boyfriend's.

 

How do you know this? Have you met him? Had a conversation with him?

 

ES assumes that her bf has the same reasons for his behaviors as she has for hers. For example, on the "no Christmas present" thread, she interpreted his expected non-gift to mean that he didn't care about her. Because that is what it would mean if SHE did not give a gift.

 

That is a pattern. She watches his behavior, makes assumptions based upon the reasons SHE would act that way, gets worked up, and then settles back down after she talks to him and learns the true reasons he did that.

 

We don't know if he is anything like her at all. We only know ES's conclusions, which seem skewed.

[norajane]

I am not 100% that I want to marry this man. I am trying to think it through because he has some personality traits that I do not like. As I said before, if I were 5 years younger - I would end this relationship. Right now - my biological clock is ticking and I am running out of time. I do love him, I am just not sure we are best for each other in long term. I am trying to be practical. I can't be as picky as I was when I was in my 20's.

 

There it is. You aren't sure you want this man, are unsure you can commit to this man, but you want him to marry you...because you think you're too old to start over with someone else.

 

You should be PICKIER than in your 20s because now you are considering a man who would father your children. Don't create new humans with a human you aren't sure you can be with. That's the worst thing for those kids, never mind you and him.

 

Be very, very careful what you sign up for. Don't hound this man into marriage if you aren't sure. Not only is it unfair to him to demand of him what YOU don't feel (being SURE of wanting to marry), but it will end in disaster because you will be unhappy the whole time.

[Untouchable_Fire]

You have no idea about my personality type, etc. Just as I am sure you have no "insight" into the personality traits of ES's boyfriend - you are making up one dimensional stories, as usual. You are really bad at character development, which will probably hinder you a lot in your creative endeavors. But nice job with spewing venom in my direction. None of it stuck.

As far as I can tell, you live in a fantasy world. Good luck with that.

It would be much easier for me to avoid "you" if you would just stick with one identity here on LS. What's with the constant deletion of yourself and your threads, only to reappear with a "new" identity, over and over and over again, and then making yourself a constant presence here? You really bring the toxic, girl.

 

Just an FYI... when I imagine you in real life... it's like a hippy in high heals. You have this combination of idealism while being realistic at the same time that is really rare.

 

ES is a drama factory. In order to figure out what her relationship is really like you need to get a picture of who she is and how she sees things... then filter the information through that lens. Even then it won't be entirely accurate.

 

I'm actually impressed with the small amount of growth I've seen from her. I think maybe she is capable of changing. This relationship is forcing her to be better. I believe that makes it positive overall. I don't really think she has a "one"... her fate will be to float from guy to guy until she is simply incapable of getting a new one.

[Mme. Chaucer]

We don't know if he is anything like her at all. We only know ES's conclusions, which seem skewed.

 

I do get the impression that he is a patient fellow ...

[Mme. Chaucer]

I'm actually impressed with the small amount of growth I've seen from her. I think maybe she is capable of changing. This relationship is forcing her to be better. I believe that makes it positive overall.

 

 

 

I agree.

 

ES, you are actually experiencing a real relationship, the ups and downs, ins and outs, and living it in day to day life. I really think it's a good thing. But, I also hope that you can be fair and respectful to your boyfriend even when things are not going your way, or when your feelings are hurt. If he is worth sharing your life with even to the extent that you are right now, he is worth that.

 

A long time ago in this thread, or maybe in another thread (I'm not going back to look), you said something very measured and thoughtful about your feelings and this relationship. I and some others advised you to remember, and to look back and read that when you start to go spinning off next time. I hope you will.

 

I have NO idea whether you are going to end up married to this guy … whether it would be a good idea if you did, or not. But I really do hope that you keep coming back to "ground zero" when you take off on your emo binges. That "ground zero" is the place from which you will be able to make reasonable decisions.

 

edited to add:

 

I have come to believe that part of a "successful" relationship is if the people can break up with respect and care, if that's what they need to do. The only definition of "successful" does not have to be "happily ever after."

Edited January 9, 2012 by Mme. Chaucer

[Woggle]

Do you really wonder why this guy isn't sure? You put him through some big drama at least once a week and you are not really in love with him.

 

You simply want him because your clock is ticking and he is there. Men can sense this and it makes us want to run because it is almost a given that you will divorce once you have had your kids and he no longer serves his purpose. Men want a woman that truly loves him and don't want to be a prop for a woman who just wants her wedding day.

 

I am sorry if I am being harsh but if I were him I would run.

[LexiB]

There it is. You aren't sure you want this man, are unsure you can commit to this man, but you want him to marry you...because you think you're too old to start over with someone else.

 

Don't hound this man into marriage if you aren't sure. [it is] unfair to him to demand of him what YOU don't feel (being SURE of wanting to marry),.

 

 

With a minor edit this post hit on an issue I think you're overlooking ES. Have you given any thought to how your uncertainty and willingness to breakup with him 'if you were 5 years younger' could impact him down the line if you actually do succeed in getting him to marry you?

 

As you continue to evaluate this relationship and steadily approach your 1.5 year deadline, I hope you consider his well-being too. You stand to bring a world of pain to this man if you marry him while feeling this way.

[Anela]

If you aren't sure that you're in love with him, then I wouldn't be looking for a ring from him. That just seems like common sense to me, but then I've never felt desperate to be married, just because of my age. I've had the incredible self-doubt hit me, and regrets, but I don't think that getting married just to get married, would be any better for me, than being alone.

 

You hardly ever sound happy. <3 Shouldn't you be happier, if you're looking to marry someone? I mean, feel happier in their presence? there are certain things that I would take personally, too - like the comment that you were out of his league ten years ago, but not anymore.

[Imajerk17]

Everybody is an unreliable narrator. I think you can only piece together somebody's personality through someone else's description by reading between the lines. In some ways people like ES reveal more about their SOs because they just reveal more period, and they freely talk about the good and the bad. I feel like I have a better sense of her boyfriend than I do of anybody else's SO on this board simply because she has told us so much about him and certain patterns emerge in his behavior through her descriptions, despite her erratic opinions of him.

 

I don't think you're aware at all of how skewed your own perspective is. You are someone who always be right or see yourself as above others. I wouldn't consider you a reliable narrator on your own life given how heavily your ego and personal biases figure into judging others. You have too much of an emotional stake in ES's struggles to be objective.

 

Your responses are predictable because they have an air of rationality but are bubbling with contempt and superiority beneath the surface. Your personality reminds me of Gena Rowland's character in Woody Allen's Another Woman.

 

You seem to derive pleasure from criticizing people who remind you of your younger self. I think it's a way of you proving to yourself that you're not like that any more. It also reflects some sort of self loathing. The irony is that it sounds like your egocentricity hasn't changed from when you were young; it's just been channeled in a different direction.

 

The problem is that your very personality type prevents you from being truly self aware or admitting fault, so these things I'm pointing out will fall on deaf ears. I'm sure you think you're self aware, but it's clear you have blind spots to certain traits in yourself which are readily apparent to many others.

 

I think self-awareness is a requisite for being a good judge of others. To me that's a more important factor in the ability to read others than whether you live a dysfunction-free life.

 

You can criticize me all you want, but I'm pretty self aware. I'll freely admit my crazy and my faults to anyone. That doesn't mean I can always overcome them.

 

Woo-hoo! Cat fight. {Jerk goes and grabs some popcorn...)

[Star Gazer]

I would take personally, too - like the comment that you were out of his league ten years ago, but not anymore.

 

Maybe his comment was driven more towards HIMSELF, as in, 10 years ago he felt lie a loser, but now he feels worthy of dating a hot chick.

[zengirl]

If you read your threads over the past 2 months, you will see examples of rapid-fire "splitting." Your boyfriend and relationship are very good (from less than a week ago):

 

to painting him as a weak, asinine boor.

 

Back and forth, over and over.

 

Nobody is a perfect saint, and when your boyfriend exhibits any of his flaws in sync with the times your emotional cycle is ramping up, he becomes the bad guy. Which is inevitable, since we all have many faults.

 

I am not "taking his side." I don't believe that we have ANY idea whatsoever about the characteristics of your boyfriend, except for ONE THING:

 

He must love you very, very much in order to put up with all of this.

 

If you can't or won't stop changing your opinion of the man you say (sometimes) that you love deeply and want to marry, how will you ever be able to even come CLOSE to knowing whether the two of you are really compatible? To do that, you would need to have the ability to consider him as a fully sentient being, apart from how you react to him from moment to moment.

 

This is the best advice in this thread.

 

ES, not only do I not know who the real guy is (though I imagine he must be very patient and love you tons if everything you write is anywhere near empirically true) but I don't know who you are. What I do know is you vacillate back and forth like a yo-yo on this relationship, and you've done the same with many other people in your life.

 

Earlier, you had some very mature thoughts for yourself. I suggest you return to those thoughts and detach from drama. Drama is addictive. Anxiety is addictive. Even if you don't "like" them and know they're bad, you crave them. Many people do, and the more they indulge, the more they crave.

 

And that way lies no growth, no happiness, and no hope of realizing any of the dreams you may have for this relationship or yourself.

 

There it is. You aren't sure you want this man, are unsure you can commit to this man, but you want him to marry you...because you think you're too old to start over with someone else.

 

You should be PICKIER than in your 20s because now you are considering a man who would father your children. Don't create new humans with a human you aren't sure you can be with. That's the worst thing for those kids, never mind you and him.

 

And this is true as well! I certainly got pickier as I got older, not the other way around.

 

Now, when you say you may have to be "less picky," for some people: They may have to look and see if the things they've been "picky" about make any damn sense! And feel free to do that. Instead of being "less picky," maybe just make sure you're being "picky" about the right stuff: The stuff that truly makes a marriage last and that will truly make you happy with someone.

[Anela]

Maybe his comment was driven more towards HIMSELF, as in, 10 years ago he felt lie a loser, but now he feels worthy of dating a hot chick.

 

That's a good point, and I would have a) considered that if I knew he thought of himself that way in the past, or b) said something to him if it hurt my feelings, and wanted clarification.

 

That was just an afterthought. My point is that she never feels happy for long, and if I were wanting/expecting a ring from a man, you can be sure that I would expect to feel good around him.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Anela

[Anela]

.

 

Earlier, you had some very mature thoughts for yourself. I suggest you return to those thoughts and detach from drama. Drama is addictive. Anxiety is addictive. Even if you don't "like" them and know they're bad, you crave them. Many people do, and the more they indulge, the more they crave.

 

And that way lies no growth, no happiness, and no hope of realizing any of the dreams you may have for this relationship or yourself.

 

 

 

Regarding addiction to anxiety and drama. I've been trying to exit my own spin-cycle drama-wise, but that can be tough to do when more things keep coming at you.

 

Ten years ago, I read in the book Emotional Alchemy that the brain literally creates new grooves for energy to move down in the brain - the more you do or experience something, the deeper that groove gets, and the more the brain waves are going to head for that groove. I wish I could find the book, and quote it properly. You finally get away from it, and things/your emotional responses slowly ease up.

 

I can see why you would say something like that, but I don't think it's always about someone wanting more of that - I know that hasn't been the case for me.

 

But this is for a different thread, sorry!

[Eternal Sunshine]

Actually, CK's list of personality traits for my bf are spot on. There is nothing on that list that doesn't ring true.

 

He is unstable but I am more so. His mood also oscillates but he is mostly happy. In a way he projected an image of a girl he wanted onto me. One of big things for him is that he wants a girl that is cheerful and always smiling. Does that sound like me?

 

It is not that I doubt my love for him, it's more that I am not sure that he would make a good long term partner. Here is my list of cons:

 

- Highly critical of my appearance, cooking etc (to the point of being anal)

 

- Little white lies to avoid conflict (like I saw on his phone that his ex messaged him to wish him merry Christmas and he responded with "you too"). He never mentioned it although he mentioned when his male friends wished him merry Christmas. I know that he is still watching porn on his phone in the bathroom, even though he promised not to do it while I am in the house.

 

- Indecisive and heavily influenced by his close friends and family

 

- Disparity between our energy levels; he wants to be up at 7am on the weekends and right away go and do something. I like to sleep in, preferably till 11 or so. He never wants to go and do stuff by himself so he generally sulks while he waits for me to wake up. He also wants us to go places and do things all day long; I prefer to stay in and relax with a movie sometimes. He thinks that I am lazy.

 

- Low-ish sex drive

 

- Extremely clingy and needy, much more so than me. For example, despite spending all our time together - he still calls me from work to chat and then sulks if I am unavailable to answer the phone. Even if I call him back 10mins later, he is still upset that I didn't answer my phone the first time he called. He feels that I am ignoring him on purpose (which is not the case). He also never wants to go out with his friends without me. I have encouraged him million times to do so. Once that he did, he was back home in less than 2 hours.

 

- Blurts out unfiltered thoughts at times

 

- Generally weak character

 

-----------------

 

These are my reservations about getting in deeper with him.

[Eternal Sunshine]

As for my mum, she is now back to heavily encouraging me to stay with him. She keeps saying that if I let this guy go, that's it for me and I am too old to find anyone else that will love me.

 

She also has a hidden agenda. As great as she is, she can be pretty controlling. I mentioned taking a trip to Europe by myself if I end this relationship and she freaked out. She thinks that someone will rape and kill me and she generally treats me like a kid. She is also scared of me starting internet dating again as she also worries I will meet some psycho that way who will do something to me

 

As sad as it sounds, I think that she would prefer me marrying ANYBODY to staying single.

[Untouchable_Fire]

It is not that I doubt my love for him, it's more that I am not sure that he would make a good long term partner. Here is my list of cons:

- Highly critical of my appearance, cooking etc (to the point of being anal)

- Little white lies to avoid conflict (like I saw on his phone that his ex messaged him to wish him merry Christmas and he responded with "you too"). He never mentioned it although he mentioned when his male friends wished him merry Christmas. I know that he is still watching porn on his phone in the bathroom, even though he promised not to do it while I am in the house.

- Indecisive and heavily influenced by his close friends and family

- Disparity between our energy levels; he wants to be up at 7am on the weekends and right away go and do something. I like to sleep in, preferably till 11 or so. He never wants to go and do stuff by himself so he generally sulks while he waits for me to wake up. He also wants us to go places and do things all day long; I prefer to stay in and relax with a movie sometimes. He thinks that I am lazy.

- Low-ish sex drive

- Extremely clingy and needy, much more so than me. For example, despite spending all our time together - he still calls me from work to chat and then sulks if I am unavailable to answer the phone. Even if I call him back 10mins later, he is still upset that I didn't answer my phone the first time he called. He feels that I am ignoring him on purpose (which is not the case). He also never wants to go out with his friends without me. I have encouraged him million times to do so. Once that he did, he was back home in less than 2 hours.

- Blurts out unfiltered thoughts at times

- Generally weak character

-----------------

These are my reservations about getting in deeper with him.

 

You need a guy that is clingier than you. Otherwise you will constantly be freaking out about whether he likes you or not.

 

I don't like the fact that he seems hypercritical. The pictures of you I remember made me think you were very pretty. Anyone criticizing your looks has some issues. There is always a chance he is doing that specifically to bring you down, so you don't leave him.