Women over 30: how long would you wait for a proposal?

[zengirl]

Marriage is more likely to hurt a relationship than help it.

 

What ES needs to be asking herself is... Why does marriage feel important?

 

Is it the social convention? Religious convictions? Financial security? ... ect.

 

With very few exceptions it IS wrong to require a love/marriage combo in order to be happy. Fact is that the reason's for wanting marriage are often VERY self centered... which is the complete opposite of love. You can't be that selfish and love someone at the same time.

 

If she loves him, then she won't care if marriage is in the picture or not. Real love is not self serving like that.

 

It sounds like you are anti-marriage. MANY people (men and women) are not anti-marriage; many of them WANT marriage. I'm sorry if that's raining on your anti-marriage parade. I think it's fine if someone doesn't want to get married, but they should understand it WILL be a factor in compatibility.

 

There are a multitude of reasons to want to get married. For instance, I always knew I wanted to get married because to me, it's what makes my SO my family, legally and officially, in the eyes of society and all. For me, it actually happened before I expected; I didn't push for it, but I always knew I'd find a man to love AND marry. Those are the kind of men I've dated---who also want marriage.

 

But, anyway, to swing your argument around at you, by the same logic: it is self-serving to NOT marry someone who would be happier and more secure in the relationship if you love them. And, really, following what's best for you IS self-serving, and to some degree, if you are never at least somewhat self-serving (hopefully in a kind and enlightened way), you are a terrible partner who cannot offer much in the way of love. Selflessness is a component of love, at times, yes, but so is having a sense of self in the first place so you actually have something to give.

 

There's nothing wrong about going into a relationship being clear about what your relationship goals are. It WOULD be needlessly selfish to ask someone to sacrifice something HUGE to them and expect it, but not to express your style and look for someone who is compatible with it.

[Untouchable_Fire]

This sounds reasonably logical, but assume your kid ends up being a dwarf, which googling tells me is one of the conditions for which there's an increased risk of in older fathers. If you had him at 30, he won't blame you...but if you have him at 60, he probably will. And you may also blame yourself. Crappy situation to ponder.

 

So, instead of a 0.001% chance of birth defects it's now a 0.005% chance.

 

I don't think you should worry about it. Go buy lotto tickets or something.

[EnigmaticClarity]

I don't see how you can argue that marriage provides a more stable environment for raising children. Nearly 70% of children will see their parents divorce at some point, and being married makes that process much more bitter and nasty vs. non-married parents.

 

Because of what leads to the bitterness and nastiness you're referring to--they've got more skin in the game so breaking up becomes a lot harder, so more people tend to become more committed to working out their issues as opposed to reaching for the parachute they've left for themselves by avoiding marriage. Avoiding that greater commitment by not marrying is definitely selfish--you're setting up the relationship to make it easier for you to get out of it.

[Untouchable_Fire]

It sounds like you are anti-marriage. MANY people (men and women) are not anti-marriage; many of them WANT marriage. I'm sorry if that's raining on your anti-marriage parade. I think it's fine if someone doesn't want to get married, but they should understand it WILL be a factor in compatibility.

But, anyway, to swing your argument around at you, by the same logic: it is self-serving to NOT marry someone who would be happier and more secure in the relationship if you love them. And, really, following what's best for you IS self-serving, and to some degree, if you are never at least somewhat self-serving (hopefully in a kind and enlightened way), you are a terrible partner who cannot offer much in the way of love. Selflessness is a component of love, at times, yes, but so is having a sense of self in the first place so you actually have something to give.

 

To me marriage has two aspects, it's a religious institution and a financial contract. I am very much in favor of marriage as a religious institution. That is the only reason I know that I will get married in the future. I see this as a very valid reason for someone wanting to get married.

 

I'm not sure what part of marriage ES is interested in, but I would guess that it's simply the business end.

 

Basically what your saying is that it's Ok for ES to require a financial contract in order to continue loving her man. Does that sound like love?

[EnigmaticClarity]

So, instead of a 0.001% chance of birth defects it's now a 0.005% chance.

 

Fair point--I googled again and couldn't find any consistent findings attached to just how great a risk a man's age really is. I suppose I'll dismiss it as well until I see something more definite.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Because of what leads to the bitterness and nastiness you're referring to--they've got more skin in the game so breaking up becomes a lot harder, so more people tend to become more committed to working out their issues as opposed to reaching for the parachute they've left for themselves by avoiding marriage. Avoiding that greater commitment by not marrying is definitely selfish--you're setting up the relationship to make it easier for you to get out of it.

 

No, people become LESS committed to fixing issues when they are married. We see this all the time. People very often stop trying because it's harder to get out. Most take their SO for granted until they are faced with possible divorce... only then they start trying to work things out. Once the crisis is averted it's typically right back to the same set of bad behaviors. I have been married before, so I know exactly how this dynamic works.

 

Those who are not married actually have to work and put in effort to keep their SO around. That goes for both genders.

[serial muse]

Fair point--I googled again and couldn't find any consistent findings attached to just how great a risk a man's age really is. I suppose I'll dismiss it as well until I see something more definite.

 

You won't see something more definite for a while, because it's still very preliminary research, but the most compelling link so far has been between older fathers and incidence of autism (for example, http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/63/9/1026). There are also mouse studies that have found this link (http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2011/08/31/3305848.htm) but then of course you have the mouse-model issue. Also, there was an interesting study in 2010 that looked at the ages of both mothers and fathers that noted that the impact of the father's age did appear to become more pronounced the younger the mother was - suggesting that yes, the father's age does actually matter, contrary to some suggestions that the mother's age alone is relevant (obviously the mother's matters a great deal - but then, we already knew and have long acknowledged that part!)

 

However, there are so many other variables (autism diagnoses have increased so dramatically in the last few years - older mothers? fathers? environmental causes? simple increase in diagnosis frequency due to better recognition of the signs?) that it's very difficult to establish a definite causal link.

 

But I wouldn't advise blithely ignoring these issues, either. It's not so much a question of definites - after all, prospective mothers could ask themselves whether they should wait for definite answers, too, but science is iterative and those definites are hard to come by. And yet, it is a truth universally acknowledged that women have a ticking clock - and it's not just about menopause. So I'm just saying, be aware.

Edited January 5, 2012 by serial muse

[zengirl]

To me marriage has two aspects, it's a religious institution and a financial contract. I am very much in favor of marriage as a religious institution. That is the only reason I know that I will get married in the future. I see this as a very valid reason for someone wanting to get married.

 

I'm not sure what part of marriage ES is interested in, but I would guess that it's simply the business end.

 

Basically what your saying is that it's Ok for ES to require a financial contract in order to continue loving her man. Does that sound like love?

 

I think you're oversimplifying it. My marriage is not religious. It's not particularly financial either, and won't be for at least 10 years or till we have kids (which we won't on purpose), as those are the terms of our prenup (which *I* asked for, though it's not like I've got tons of money to worry about). It's something else.

 

My point is that "marriage to YOU" and marriage are not the same thing. Those are the two aspects of marriage YOU see, but there are also personal, societal, romantic, and other aspects of marriage to other people. You didn't address MY definition of marriage --- to create a family, as it's the only way other than by blood or adoption one can create a family, which is to me a really interesting and magical thing --- at all, for instance, and it doesn't fit with either of your "institutions." I can tell the world, legally, totally, socially, 100% that my husband is my family because I chose him to be, and we even have the same last name! To me, that's pretty cool. It's also a promise we make to each other, so it's a very personal thing. We swore oaths. That's pretty amazing to me as well.

 

So, what I'm saying is your view of "what marriage is" is skewed by your own perceptions and is not absolute truth for everyone.

[Untouchable_Fire]

My point is that "marriage to YOU" and marriage are not the same thing. Those are the two aspects of marriage YOU see, but there are also personal, societal, romantic, and other aspects of marriage to other people. You didn't address MY definition of marriage --- to create a family, as it's the only way other than by blood or adoption one can create a family, which is to me a really interesting and magical thing --- at all, for instance, and it doesn't fit with either of your "institutions." I can tell the world, legally, totally, socially, 100% that my husband is my family because I chose him to be, and we even have the same last name! To me, that's pretty cool. It's also a promise we make to each other, so it's a very personal thing. We swore oaths. That's pretty amazing to me as well.

So, what I'm saying is your view of "what marriage is" is skewed by your own perceptions and is not absolute truth for everyone.

 

I don't think those things count at all in the big picture.

 

Marriage isn't required to create a family. The family unit existed LONG before the institution of marriage, and will continue on long afterwards.

 

Would ES be happy if she had a wedding and took the title of married, without actually filing the legal paperwork?

 

I realize that marriage means a little something different to everyone... except when it comes to the financial arraignment. Which is legally binding. That IS an absolute truth.

 

Vows are awesome, but worthless.

[Eternal Sunshine]

To complicate matters, his family dislikes me. They initially liked me a lot but have spent 10 days at our place over holidays.

 

They advised my boyfriend to break up with me. They think that I am cold, manipulative, too quiet and not cheerful enough. His mum has been criticizing my house keeping skills and told my bf that his life with me will be miserable. That I will make poor wife and mother.

 

He is not a very strong person and his parents influence him hugely.

 

The truth is, I just don't get along with them. Despite my best efforts, they are too loud, too intense, too draining. They can talk non-stop for 12 hours. Imagine 10 days of that. I thought I was about to go crazy. I couldn't even keep up my polite front any longer. I couldn't listen to another gossip story about people I don't know. His mum has about 200000 of those stories. So I started tuning out as a way to stay sane.

 

His mum is also in some weirdo competition with me for her son's affection. His dad doesn't have much against me.

 

I feel like he will never marry me without their approval.

[choppedkittens]

To complicate matters, his family dislikes me. They initially liked me a lot but have spent 10 days at our place over holidays.

 

They advised my boyfriend to break up with me. They think that I am cold, manipulative, too quiet and not cheerful enough. His mum has been criticizing my house keeping skills and told my bf that his life with me will be miserable. That I will make poor wife and mother.

 

He is not a very strong person and his parents influence him hugely.

 

The truth is, I just don't get along with them. Despite my best efforts, they are too loud, too intense, too draining. They can talk non-stop for 12 hours. Imagine 10 days of that. I thought I was about to go crazy. I couldn't even keep up my polite front any longer. I couldn't listen to another gossip story about people I don't know. His mum has about 200000 of those stories. So I started tuning out as a way to stay sane.

 

His mum is also in some weirdo competition with me for her son's affection. His dad doesn't have much against me.

 

I feel like he will never marry me without their approval.

 

This sucks. It reminds me of the dynamic with my ex and his family. They also didn't like me -- they were loud, crass and boisterous -- while I'm more reserved. He would also bend to their will. This may explain why your boyfriend is a people pleaser, since his parents sound like they have poor boundaries and put a lot of demands on him.

 

Have you discussed with him how he feels about his family disapproving of you? Has he said whether he's OK marrying someone whom his family doesn't like? Also, how much time does he spend with them?

Edited January 5, 2012 by choppedkittens

[Eternal Sunshine]

This sucks. It reminds me of the dynamic with my ex and his family. They also didn't like me -- they were loud, crass and boisterous -- while I'm more reserved. He would also bend to their will. This may explain why your boyfriend is a people pleaser, since his parents sound like they have poor boundaries and put a lot of demands on him.

 

Have you discussed with him how he feels about his family disapproving of you? Has he said whether he's OK marrying someone whom his family doesn't like? Also, how much time does he spend with them?

 

He said that he defended me in front of them when they attacked me (this was all taking place without me present). He said that while he could possibly marry someone his family doesn't approve off, he would not be happy doing that

 

When I tried to defend myself, he snapped at me and told me not to even attempt to tear him apart from his family. I never tried to do that and even remind him to call them when he hasn't spoken to them in a while.

 

They live in another state. In the last 6 months, we have spent 6 days total at their house and now 10 days at our house. He skypes with them couple of times per week.

 

I accidentally saw a text from his mum last night that said: "my dearest son, we are so worried about you. You can do so much better than ES"

 

He responded: "Don't worry mum, I am doing well".

 

He basically wants me to try my hardest to win their approval.

 

He has also been noticeably distant in the last few days since they left.

[choppedkittens]

He said that he defended me in front of them when they attacked me (this was all taking place without me present). He said that while he could possibly marry someone his family doesn't approve off, he would not be happy doing that

 

When I tried to defend myself, he snapped at me and told me not to even attempt to tear him apart from his family. I never tried to do that and even remind him to call them when he hasn't spoken to them in a while.

 

They live in another state. In the last 6 months, we have spent 6 days total at their house and now 10 days at our house. He skypes with them couple of times per week.

 

I accidentally saw a text from his mum last night that said: "my dearest son, we are so worried about you. You can do so much better than ES"

 

He responded: "Don't worry mum, I am doing well".

 

He basically wants me to try my hardest to win their approval.

 

He has also been noticeably distant in the last few days since they left.

 

Oh boy.

 

First of all, I think it's improbable that you will win his mother over at his point. People are very reluctant to change their first impressions, especially when they're judgmental and a bit irrational to begin with (as it sounds like his mother is). So I would continue to be polite/friendly around her, but don't kill yourself trying to win her approval.

 

Btw, this may be why your boyfriend has so little relationship experience despite his age. His mother sounds overbearing.

 

I would have another talk with him and tell him this, that realistically his mother may never like you. Ask him to assume this is the case and ask him whether he can live with that. Tell him that you need to resolve this now rather than avoiding the conflict on the off chance that her opinion may change down the line.

 

The way he is handling this so far is a huge strike against him, imo.

Edited January 6, 2012 by choppedkittens

[choppedkittens]

Here's what I'd say to him roughly. Try to stay cool.

 

[ES's bf], I understand and respect that your family is very important to you, and I would never try to come between you and them. So please understand that by bringing this up I'm not trying to cause a rift.

 

I'm concerned with the health of our relationship, and I think it's important that we discuss this sooner rather than later before it festers.

 

I am devastated that your parents don't approve of me. I want nothing more than their approval, and I will continue to be as friendly and engaging as I can be around them. That said, there's a good chance they may never like me, no matter how hard I try, because our personalities may just not mesh.

 

I think it's best for us to assume the worst case now. It's not healthy for me to be in a situation where I'm gripped with anxiety whenever I'm around your parents because I know the future of our relationship hinges on their opinion of me.

 

I need to know that even if your parents never approve of me, that won't affect your commitment to me. You can take some time to think about it, but I need an answer soon.

 

I love you, and I hope you understand why I am broaching this.

Edited January 6, 2012 by choppedkittens

[Eternal Sunshine]

Yes, his brother has also had almost no R experience and he is 35.

 

His parents are a nightmare. They have no friends because people avoid them after the first visit. His dad is also very loud and all but he tends to be logical, more honest and tells you what he thinks. His mum is dumb, completely irrational and two faced.

 

I talked to my mum just now about it all and she told me: "ES, it's about time you cut your losses here". My mum is never like that and always talks me into trying to work it out.

 

 

I seriously don't feel it's fair for me to work hard to win his mum over. I have enough other struggles as it is.

[choppedkittens]

Yes, his brother has also had almost no R experience and he is 35.

 

His parents are a nightmare. They have no friends because people avoid them after the first visit. His dad is also very loud and all but he tends to be logical, more honest and tells you what he thinks. His mum is dumb, completely irrational and two faced.

 

I talked to my mum just now about it all and she told me: "ES, it's about time you cut your losses here". My mum is never like that and always talks me into trying to work it out.

 

 

I seriously don't feel it's fair for me to work hard to win his mum over. I have enough other struggles as it is.

 

See what he says...but I basically agree with your mom. He sounds weak, and if you married him you'd be marrying his parents.

[Eternal Sunshine]

And you know what's the worst?

 

His mum has a brother that she hasn't spoken to in 10 years. It's because he married this controlling and manipulative woman that apparently forbid him to speak to any of his family. This woman has the same first name as me and I supposedly physically resemble her. So in his mum's irrational mind, I am like her and I will take her son away. You can't really fight irrationality.

 

Thanks CK for your detailed advice. I may try to have one last talk with him before throwing in the towel.

[norajane]

And you know what's the worst?

 

His mum has a brother that she hasn't spoken to in 10 years. It's because he married this controlling and manipulative woman that apparently forbid him to speak to any of his family. This woman has the same first name as me and I supposedly physically resemble her. So in his mum's irrational mind, I am like her and I will take her son away. You can't really fight irrationality.

 

Thanks CK for your detailed advice. I may try to have one last talk with him before throwing in the towel.

 

Maybe he didn't marry a controlling and manipulative woman. Maybe he married a normal woman, but mama didn't like her and alienated them both. Why are you suddenly taking mama's word on this when mama thinks YOU are a controlling and manipulative woman...?

 

And what happened to your perspective? You said he loved you more than anything and you know that, and you love him...yet, here you are a day later ready to throw in the towel. THAT is the drama your bf is afraid of and why he isn't sure he can commit to a lifetime with you. THAT is a sign of how unstable YOU are making this relationship...everything is a drama that is one step away from breaking this off completely. Almost as if you are looking for it, craving it, and WANT to find a reason to end this.

Edited January 6, 2012 by norajane

[allina]

Omg ES! look how quickly things go from you wanting to marry him asap to you giving another reason for why things won't work out with him

[oaks]

I seriously don't feel it's fair for me to work hard to win his mum over. I have enough other struggles as it is.

 

Sometimes I give you a hard time, but on this I wholeheartedly agree with you. See what your bf says. Will he help with winning his mum over? Or, is that even necessary? (i.e. how does he feel about his mum disapproving of you, and how would that affect your relationship in the future?)

 

Is it as simple as him telling his mum "This is the girl I love. Deal with it." ? (and if he won't stand up to his mum, is that a deal-breaker for you?)

[nothappyjan]

I am a girl in my mid/late twenties. I have achieved mystudy,travel and work goals and the next goal for me is to have children andhave a family

 

[sIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman] Now it’s frustratingas I am not in control of my goal, I can’t make a man love me and want tosettle down with me. I have been clucky since I was born (no joke) I work withkids, I love kids and I would never recover if I lost the opportunity to havethem as I was wasting my time with unsure men. [/FONT][/sIZE]

 

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]Adoption is pretty much not an option where I live, you havemore chance winning the lotto than successfully adopting a child. The only otheroption would be fostering but that is most likely not going to be permanent. [/sIZE][/FONT]

 

 

]I have already had a few failed relationships and as I’mstill young it hasn’t phased me as much.I’m not just looking for any man but aman I know will work with me long term and who I click with. I am not looking for mr perfect just a niceaverage guy. If I’m 30 and still single I will probably not waste my timeeither waiting around for a guy to decide, only to turn around and dump meafter 3 yrs. I think it’s harder for people to understand if they don’t havethe clucky gene, and even harder for men to get

 

Mine is not so I canget married and have a white dress and big party, I can do that at 80 if I haveto, but having children is a small window of time and is so uncertain that Idon’t want to wait until I’m 39 to try. Due to religious reasons I would ratherbe married before having children.

 

[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3]A friend of mine is 36 and known her bf for her whole life.He is 40 and still dragging his feet he knows she wants kids and would be thebest wife/mother and she workships him. However he claims its no rush as theycan have IVF and try when she’s 40. I thought it was the most selfish thing I’dever heard to put her body through all of that, just so you can wait anotherfew years.(After knowing her for 35 years!) I think men sometimes work in adifferent time zone to women.

Edited January 6, 2012 by nothappyjan

[Kamille]

Sometimes I give you a hard time, but on this I wholeheartedly agree with you. See what your bf says. Will he help with winning his mum over? Or, is that even necessary? (i.e. how does he feel about his mum disapproving of you, and how would that affect your relationship in the future?)

 

Is it as simple as him telling his mum "This is the girl I love. Deal with it." ? (and if he won't stand up to his mum, is that a deal-breaker for you?)

 

Amen Oaks!

 

ES speak calmly to him before jumping to conclusions. His mom isn't making the decisions here, he is. Likewise, your mom isn't making the decisions here, you are.

 

And your first decision should be to use this opportunity to test out your new resolve. You said you want to deal with issues in a relationship building way. Get off the drama train. Approach this in a mature, non-dramatic way.

 

You wouldn't the first woman in the universe to have a MIL who dislikes her. My dad's parents hated my mom, my mom's parents disapproved of the marriage and they've been married close to 40 years. Both set of In-Laws have since apologized for how they treated them at first.

 

Step one: put things in perspective

Step two: talk to him

Step three: take responsibility for what you can and resolve to work on that (maybe his mother knows how drama-filled the relationship has been?). Let go of what is out of your control (a personality clash is a personality clash is a personality clash).

Edited January 6, 2012 by Kamille

[RecordProducer]

If you want him to propose you have to stop with the constant freakouts. I'm sure he wants to be with you but knowing how much drama you can bring to his life is a huge deterrent. Show him that you are wife material and that a future with you will be full of joy, not anxiety and drama.

I read Allina's post after I posted mine, so I deleted my initial response. I agree with Allina. A man will be reluctant to marry a woman if they have problems since day one, even before marriage. Pre-marital drama is a big no-no if you want to marry the guy. You broke up twice, you had lots of drama? You won't last even if you get married. The problems never disappear after the wedding day - they tend to get worse, especially when kids come. Why do you want to bring kids into the drama?

Edited January 6, 2012 by RecordProducer

[Mme. Chaucer]

How were you so positive about your relationship a few hours ago, and now completely dire? You are talking on the phone to your mom about possibly breaking up?

 

BAD.

 

I strongly disagree with the scenario proposed by t_c / sp / ck /. It sounds "cornering." Why don't you confer with people who have had successful relationships and navigated the family dramas. Your boyfriend probably cannot know whether he will be able to honestly assure you that his parents opinion of you won't affect his commitment to you.

 

People who have healthy relationships learn how to deal with each others families, but also how to prioritize their mate OVER their mom, dad, siblings, etc. It takes maturity and the couple needs to work on it together if there are issues.

[choppedkittens]

How were you so positive about your relationship a few hours ago, and now completely dire? You are talking on the phone to your mom about possibly breaking up?

 

BAD.

 

I strongly disagree with the scenario proposed by t_c / sp / ck /. It sounds "cornering." Why don't you confer with people who have had successful relationships and navigated the family dramas. Your boyfriend probably cannot know whether he will be able to honestly assure you that his parents opinion of you won't affect his commitment to you.

 

People who have healthy relationships learn how to deal with each others families, but also how to prioritize their mate OVER their mom, dad, siblings, etc. It takes maturity and the couple needs to work on it together if there are issues.

 

ES, it's perfectly reasonable for you to have a discussion with him about this, and to want some assurance that his mother's opinion won't decide the fate of your relationship. It's not healthy to be in a position where you have to continually prove yourself to somebody's mother. I hope you do. Just stay calm throughout it.

Edited January 6, 2012 by choppedkittens