All out in the open.

[woinlove]

And what about the status of your marriage?Why is your wife not hurt enough to send you packing if she knows the WHOLE truth?

 

Why not invite your wife to the meeting and allow your xmow to inform her of anything she might need to know to make informed choices too?

 

I mean, if it's all out in the open on her side,why not make it all out in the open on your side? I'm more than sure you haven't divulged all of the details to your wife.

 

And what got me was the fact that you and most men who cheat without caring who they hurt,compartmentalized love and sex to justify staying with your wife and f*cking someone else's wife and I truly doubt either women would have been OK with that had they realized that you couldn't love either of them and treat them both so disrespectfully.

 

That is where my upset stemmed from.And of course there is a certain amount of projection on my part due to my history with a xMM who played my heart like a fiddle to get laid,knowing I loved him and was risking my marriage for him and left it for him...so yeah.There is no way to paint yourself as anything besides "despicableme" in my book.Sorry.

 

Heart On, obviously you are hurting, but there is no evidence that DM told the MOW that he would leave his M. In your case, no one actually risks their M for another person. You decide to risk your M. Maybe in your mind, it was for an OM, but it was your decision to risk your M. Also, as a former OW, I know that every single day a MM remains married and the OW stays in the A, is a decision to stay in an A with a MM. MM, like MW, say a lot of things that they may or may not mean at the time, but the bottom line is staying married says a whole lot more than any words, and each of us as OW or former OW have to take responsibility for choosing to stay in an A under those circumstances. In order to make better choices that make us happier in the future, it is important to recognize the power that we had and that we have by recognizing our own responsibility to ourselves.

[woinlove]

Odd how you think you have a right to be defensive under the circumstances.Seems to me,you are pissed off that you are paying for your misdeeds.I didn't know that you had confessed and she left.Now I do.

 

Obviously since you lost your wife,now you feel it's time for her to lose her husband.

 

Wow, this is really off the mark! The BH asked for this meeting, not DM. Your worldview is really distorted if you think extending the courtesy of agreeing to meet with someone who knows you (yes they all knew each other, if you read DM's earlier threads) and planning to treat them with respect and honesty is only something a bitter person would do. Heart On, if you feel as conflicted and hurt as your posts suggest, perhaps you should start a thread to try to get some advice and support. Otherwise, you are throwing out off the wall comments on other threads.

[LadyGrey]

Heart on.....you've lost your objectivity when it comes to DM's situation and you didn't know the real story and you assumed a lot, that I think now you are beginning to see that your assumptions are way off the mark.

 

 

You know, in a way I think you were to some extent a victim (just a tiny bit) because he was supposed to be a professional. Still it remains that you were married, he was married and surely you can admit that lines were crossed and in more ways than one you volunteered? Right? In a perfect world, someone who valued their marriage would have been willing to become an AP, right?

 

I'm curious, why did you protect him after it was over, why didn't you at least out him professionally? I really don't get that, can you explain?

 

Hell why don't you go ahead and report him now, might help you with some of that anger.

 

 

Slave to my heart and emotions?

 

Ok then...yeah...my fault.

 

I was a client who was professionally exploited by my LMT while I was married.So my situation is a little different.But yeah,I won't EVER trust another married male massage therapist again.

 

I took 100% personal responsibility for my part and outted myself LONG before it became sexual in his office and separated and ultimately wound up divorced for my honesty all the while protecting him from himself hoping he would come clean for her sake and mine and he didn't.

 

To this day..............she is CLUELESS that he is a Con Artist who exploits clients.

 

Why would he apologize to me and thank me for not reporting him if he didn't consider me NOT TO BLAME?

[pureinheart]

Well the ***** finally hit the fan- her BH has been informed of the affair.

 

I don't know if it was my BS who "outed" the situation, but he has contacted me and wants to talk details. Needless to say that she(AP) wants me to lie about certain things, which I am not going to do. It has gotten to the point where she cornered me at work and broke down crying because she has regained her "love" for this man, and doesn't want to ruin her chance at R.

 

Whatever he wants I will give him.

 

I'm quite torn by this, as I never had the chance at R'ing and would feel more *****ty if I keep lying to this guy... WTF DID I DO?!?!?!

 

I would advise to stay out of it...not sure of the background, if the affair has already ended and such. I don't believe it is your place to to tell him the "truth", it is her place and her marriage. If it were me, no matter what the situation, I would simply say hey, you need to talk to your husband.

 

Good luck and (((((hugs))))

[pureinheart]

Obviously since you lost your wife,now you feel it's time for her to lose her husband.

 

This is a good point.

 

Not saying this is the truth dM, although could it be a subconscience motivation?

[FelicityShot]

WOW! I am British, and obviously therefore repressed, but I cannot imagine going into graphic details about A sex with the AP's BS.

 

And I certainly wouldn't require that if the shoe were on the other foot.

 

So my empathy isn't getting me anywhere in terms of why you would offer this up.

 

Surely it would be excruciating for your AP, and her BS? (And indeed might cause you a few blushes?)

 

I am shaking my head in disbelief when I imagine this scenario. Madness.

 

My BH very wisely said after my A: 'I kind of want to ask for details but what's the point? I am imagining the worst, and that's probably true'. I didn't contradict him, and we left it at that.

 

And anyway, isn't there some kind of code that says you don't reveal intimate details about your sex acts with a named partner you respect to a third party without express permission? The sex was good should suffice. Or in your case, from what I glean, the sex was good, but pretty meaningless as far as I'm concerned.

 

But I am forgetting.... I am a cheater, so my argument about codes would be worthless, lol. Watertight that one.

 

Unless you suspect the BH in this situation has a kinky leaning re his W and other men, that you take the diplomatic honesty approach.

 

With the emphasis on diplomacy.

 

Madness... (FS signs off shaking her head).

[woinlove]

WOW! I am British, and obviously therefore repressed, but I cannot imagine going into graphic details about A sex with the AP's BS.

 

And I certainly wouldn't require that if the shoe were on the other foot.

 

So my empathy isn't getting me anywhere in terms of why you would offer this up.

 

Surely it would be excruciating for your AP, and her BS? (And indeed might cause you a few blushes?)

 

I am shaking my head in disbelief when I imagine this scenario. Madness.

 

My BH very wisely said after my A: 'I kind of want to ask for details but what's the point? I am imagining the worst, and that's probably true'. I didn't contradict him, and we left it at that.

 

And anyway, isn't there some kind of code that says you don't reveal intimate details about your sex acts with a named partner you respect to a third party without express permission? The sex was good should suffice. Or in your case, from what I glean, the sex was good, but pretty meaningless as far as I'm concerned.

 

But I am forgetting.... I am a cheater, so my argument about codes would be worthless, lol. Watertight that one.

 

Unless you suspect the BH in this situation has a kinky leaning re his W and other men, that you take the diplomatic honesty approach.

 

With the emphasis on diplomacy.

 

Madness... (FS signs off shaking her head).

 

 

The bolded made me laugh! As you suggest, who knows what the code book is for cheating and deception! The code most people try to live by is "be kind" and "try to do no harm", but that kind of goes out the window with secret affairs, doesn't it? As I said earlier, all sorts of stuff is shared in really intimate relationships.

 

The BH wants to meet and wants honesty and I think agreeing to that would fit "the code" for most people in treating others with kindness. Many people do seem to want details in this situation, but I think DH should do what he can to get MOW to answer those.

[LadyGrey]

The bolded made me laugh! As you suggest, who knows what the code book is for cheating and deception! The code most people try to live by is "be kind" and "try to do no harm", but that kind of goes out the window with secret affairs, doesn't it? As I said earlier, all sorts of stuff is shared in really intimate relationships.

 

The BH wants to meet and wants honesty and I think agreeing to that would fit "the code" for most people in treating others with kindness. Many people do seem to want details in this situation, but I think DH should do what he can to get MOW to answer those.

 

I agree that he isn't obligated to the details, his focus should be to be honest in his response and if he gets asked something detailed about the sex, I think a response of I'm not comfortable discussing that is appropriate if that is how he feels.

 

When I talked to the bs in my situation she was more interested in the emotional aspects, she didn't ask me many detailed questions about the sex but I do recall her asking me if I thought he was good in bed. I said, he was OK but I've had better. She laughed and said the same and said she thought he was selfish.

 

Anyway from the reading I've done, it seems that men focus more on the physical aspects and they consider that the most disturbing part so I think DM should be prepared for those kind of questions.

[PhoenixRise]

If the MOW in this situation is smart, she will preempt this entire situation and become an open book.

 

DM if she contacts you again before this meeting tell her to answer every question her husband has openly, honestly and completely. Tell her you are not going to lie for her and whatever answers her husband gets will be much better coming from her.

[Spark1111]

Slave to my heart and emotions?

 

Ok then...yeah...my fault.

 

I was a client who was professionally exploited by my LMT while I was married.So my situation is a little different.But yeah,I won't EVER trust another married male massage therapist again.

 

I took 100% personal responsibility for my part and outted myself LONG before it became sexual in his office and separated and ultimately wound up divorced for my honesty all the while protecting him from himself hoping he would come clean for her sake and mine and he didn't.

 

To this day..............she is CLUELESS that he is a Con Artist who exploits clients.

 

Why would he apologize to me and thank me for not reporting him if he didn't consider me NOT TO BLAME?

 

Why did you protect him? You lost your marriage over your honesty, just like DMe.

 

But he is unwilling to protect his fMOW as he never loved her.

 

Did you think that in protecting him, it was somewhat a more honorable thing to do? Did you think it would endear you to him?

 

Why were YOU okay with his wife remaining clueless? Why didn't you inform her yourself?

 

I think you are very angry at yourself, and at your xMM. I understand that, but it is misdirected at DMe.

 

He confessed and his wife is divorcing him. The xMOW's H has found out and is insisting he and his wife attend a sit down with DMe.

 

DMe, tell the truth, whatever asked. Tell them there will be NO contact after this meeting. Tell him that if she tries to contact you it will be forwarded to him.

 

DMe, all I have read about infidelity, Men tend to want the sexual details, women the emotional ones.

 

It is not your job to save their marriage or filter the truth. Answer what is asked of you.

 

He wants her there to assess her reactions. He is feeling gaslighted and not sure if he is getting the truth from her. Stay calm and tell the truth. He is probably also seeking assurances from you that IT IS OVER. He does not belive anything she is saying right now.

 

Don't minimize or omit or whitewash. You do not have to volunteer info if NOT asked, but you must tell the truth if you are asked.

 

Good luck to you.

[SoMovinOn]

If he won't reconcile with his wife because you tied her up with her thong, so be it. That's his right to decide.

 

If he's ok reconciling with a woman who cheated on him, but only if she wasn't tied up with her thong, it's anyone's right to decide the guy is a loon.

[FelicityShot]

If he's ok reconciling with a woman who cheated on him, but only if she wasn't tied up with her thong, it's anyone's right to decide the guy is a loon.

 

I'm very keen to hear about the upshot of the thong reference, 3 way conversation.

 

'Did you realise, we did that? I think you need to know. Cos you wouldn't understand the A otherwise.'

 

BS will have it all clarified at that point. And some.

 

It's a scream.

 

I think we need a thread about exactly how angry an OW/OM can make the BS next. But only because honesty is necessary...

[frozensprouts]

i can only address your issue from the point of view of a betrayed spouse.

 

the situation was different, but for a period of time after i found out about their physical affair, my husbands other woman was the last person on earth i wanted to speak to. I didn't trust her, and had no reason to believe anything she would have told me.

 

But, and there is no logical reason that i can find for this, i did want to know all the details. like i said, i don't know why the minutiae mattered so much, but it did. but that feeling ebbed and flowed...sometimes i wanted to know everything, and there were times i didn't want to know anything. i don't know why i felt that way, but i did. about the details re; their sexual relationship...again, i have no idea why, but i felt i needed to know about it. to be honest, my feeling was that since she felt ( and i understand this) that she had no responsibility for my feelings or my privacy, then i had zero obligation towards hers. my feeling was that she was not a child, that she was an adult and had gone, eyes wide open, into an affair with a married guy, so she knew what she was getting herself into.

my feelings have soften somewhat, but the notion that when someone who is an adult fully and freely makes decisions about what to do in their lives, they accept the consequences of the actions. things are not always some one else's fault.

 

your ex affair partners husband may be going through a huge range of emotions right now. is it at all possible to postpone the meeting to talk about the affair so that he can have a bit more time to decide what he does, and what he doesn't, wish to know?

[alexandria35]

Heart I gotta say that I just don't get your reasoning on this. It's seems that feel that the OW in DM's situation is the only person that matters. DM's wife found out from DM that he had an affair and she is suffering the fall out from that. She left DM and now he's hurt and feeling the consequences of his choices. The OW's husband found out about the affair and now he is devastated and looking for answers. None of these people matter to you, you don't care about any of them or what they might need to heal and move on. You just rant on and on about how the OW must be cared for and protected from any consequences. There were four people in this situation and only 2 of them can claim innocence in regards to the affair and OW ain't one of those 2.

 

The other thing I don't get is why is it so horrible of DM or your OM for that matter that when push came to shove they didn't choose the OW? I mean I get that it felt horrible for you and for DM's OW, but are these cheaters evil jerks only when the OW gets tossed. It's fine for these men to deceive and hurt and lie to their wives? They can do that and still be good people but if they do it to their OW's then their scum of the earth? It's terrible that DM lied and deceived his OW but isn't that exactly what his OW was doing to her husband? She may feel horribly betrayed by DM but isn't she getting a taste of the same poison she was force feeding her own husband? How is it that you see her as so victimized and taken avantage off when she was so willing to do the same to her husband and DM's wife?

[Spark1111]

Damage control comes to mind.

 

Or another scenario:

 

She so wants to reconcile with her H that he is insisting and she is complying.

 

This is not as unusual a request as some on this site may think. In fact, it is reccommended on some sites as a means to ascertain,

 

a) you are being told the truth and it is OVER, and

 

b) your WS's desire to reconcile includes that they honor any request that will help the BS heal.

 

A face to face meeting of all three parties can actually promote a fast track to healing.

[LadyGrey]

Or another scenario:

 

She so wants to reconcile with her H that he is insisting and she is complying.

 

This is not as unusual a request as some on this site may think. In fact, it is reccommended on some sites as a means to ascertain,

 

a) you are being told the truth and it is OVER, and

 

b) your WS's desire to reconcile includes that they honor any request that will help the BS heal.

 

A face to face meeting of all three parties can actually promote a fast track to healing.

 

 

I'm with you Spark, because if I were in her shoes and didn't want the marriage, there is no way I'd subject myself to that. I think she wants to reconcile and is willing to endure that humiliation, although it seems she doesn't want dm to tell all. Self protection, I guess.

Edited January 7, 2012 by LadyGrey

[Emme]

If the choice is made to tell the tale, I say all four of you sit at a table and both sides tell all there is to tell. Since it's all about being honest!

[Severely Unamused]

Damage control comes to mind.

 

I think so too.

 

Not hard to figure out that DM's affair partner has been fairly...selective with the truth (I recall that you are one of the rare few WSs that decided not to pull anything shady, DM). She feels comfortable trying to get somebody to lie to her husband by proxy ffs.

 

DM, since you feel that the BH deserves as much honesty as he wants, and since mOW is (IMO) in "ultra-pragmatic damage control mode", I'd suggest that you suggest to her that she be completely honest with her husband.

 

Something like "Half-truths and lies only work when you have complete control over the full truth. You've lost control. More lies from you now would inevitably lead to more backtracking and contradictions of the truth, hurting your chances at reconciliation."

 

My reasoning is that your mOW doesn't seem like the type of person that would be completely honest in this situation, just for the sake of being honest. She would need to benefit in some way. Being honest now, benefits her since it would look like she actually took her husband seriously. But she doesn't seem to realise this. And it benefits her husband since he will get some much needed honesty from her.

 

Maybe I'm just overthinking this. As I always do.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Severely Unamused

[beenburned]

alexandria,

Good post!

[SoMovinOn]

My reasoning is that your mOW doesn't seem like the type of person that would be completely honest in this situation, just for the sake of being honest.

 

Thinking about this, and other situations I have been aware of where the BS got "the truth" from both their WS and the AP, the AP telling the complete truth at times doesn't matter. If the WS continues to lie, or tell half truths, the BS is left to judge which of them is telling the truth now. Because the are reconciling with the WS, they often go with whatever version the WS provides them, and the AP becomes the bad guy.

 

True, it's a situation where you're still best off to tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may, but ... just something one should be prepared for.

[despicableME]

Hey, all...

 

Sorry for the prolonged absence, but I seriously needed to take a break from the whole "thing," and this site altogether.

 

Hopefully, this is the conclusion to what I believe is the lowest point in my life.

 

To briefly summerize the whole thing, I was given an ultimatum to stay away from his wife, or as he put it "necessary measures would be undertaked."

 

He asked me a few things concerning the relationship such as:

 

*How & when did it start? (At a seminar)

*Did we go off together? (yes, twice)

*Did you buy her anything/did she? (yes, a porcelain clock)

*Sex... what/when/where? (I told him a few things... that's it)

*Does anyone else know? (don't know, but don't think so.)

*Did she tell me she loved me? (yes, she did.)

*Do I love her? ( not in that way. this... he couldn't believe

 

The one thing that I found most perplexing was that he asked me if she wore her wedding ring anytime we were together, or during sex.

 

I was actually taken aback by this, and didn't know how to respond... I really didn't pay attention to tell you the truth. I mean, I knew she wore it(she had a few) initially when we were first "starting out," but never really payed any mind to it. Does this make sense?

 

I told him I knew she had one, but didn't notice because she had a few.

 

He aslo asked me if I "wanted her" when I first saw her. I answered honestly, and told him I found her very attractive the first time I saw her, but didn't intend on starting a "relationship" with her. I told him I thought I wouldn't ever get to work with her, so there wasn't any chance of us even communicating initially.

 

She never looked in my direction... she was looking directly at him the entire time.

 

He told me she was filing a transfer in the coming weeks, and if she didn't get it within 3 months, she was resigning and leaving the company.

 

We were to cease all communication- other than job related- or HR would be informed of the inappropriate "fraternization" between colleagues.

 

So there you have it. No salacious details to divulge... just a man trying to get straight answers.

 

He did give me a parting shot of "You crapped out," when he informed that he knew of my impending divorce-- my SIL exposed the whole thing.

 

By the way, I really regret the "thong" referrence... I didn't want it to seem like I was boasting about our exploits. I know most of you here are women, and were taken aback by this revelation: TMI. I'm really sorry about that... I was just unsure about how much I was to divulge, and was just using this incident as an example as to how far the "openess" should go.

 

Thank you, LadyGrey for the advice.

[SoMovinOn]

The one thing that I found most perplexing was that he asked me if she wore her wedding ring anytime we were together, or during sex.

 

Symbolism.

 

The wedding ring is a symbol of their M. What she did with it would provide some possible insight into what she was thinking at the time.

 

A woman might take hers off because she feels guilty, or she might do it so the diamond doesn't get snagged in your hair.

 

I also found this comment interesting because on or shortly after D-Day, my STBXW was touching her wedding ring. She must have seen me looking at her doing it and said "You know, I never took it off. Never!!" ... and my response was "Why not? It obviously doesn't mean anything to you."

 

So... I can relate to him asking.

[spice4life]

Hey DM...thanks for the update. I was wondering how things went for you.

 

Now that it's over, you can finally start to piece your life back together. You are going to be fine; there's no doubt about that.

 

I wish you peace. It's a new chapter in your life and things can only go up from here, so make it count!

[Spark1111]

DM, be proud of yourself you went and told the truth.

 

From a BS's perspective: I believe she tried to throw you under the bus and on some level, he wasn't buying it.

 

Hence she only looked at him and how he was processing your answers, not you.

 

I believed the first version of events after their DDAY was that you were wildly attracted to her and pursued her and that you fell in love with her, ignored the wedding ring, and she got caught up in all your relentless attraction, had sex with you but never told you she loved you.

 

This man's mind is exploding and his questions speak to what he doubts about her story.

 

Every question he asked you was, IMO, trying to fill in the holes in her story; the parts that weren't ringing true for him.

 

You did not wildly pursue her: It was mutual.

 

You did not tell her you loved her, but she told you. When you told him that, he was incredulous, yes? Most BSs cannot wrap their heads around lust that causes you to throw the whole marriage overboard. It is almost easier to understand an affair for true love. Or, she claimed you fell in love with her and couldn't help yourself.

 

You never even noticed her wedding ring because it was immaterial. She was a willing participant in the affair. His questions about the ring is not only symbolic, but I believe she told him you just ignored it because she painted you as the pursuer.

 

He asked who may know? BSs, in addition to every other devastating emotion, can feel humiliation and shame that their spouse betrayed them and many others may have known, or saw, before they did.

 

He drew his line in the sand about any possible contact at work until she can transfer. He is in preservation mode right now.

 

But his head will explode in the months to come as he tries to not only heal but deal with any white lies, lies of ommission, trickle truthing she may have done immediately after DDAY.

 

Poor, poor man. But you handed him information that will allow him to make an informed decision about his marriage and his future.

 

And that was the honest action to take.

 

I'm proud of you.

[Owl]

He did give me a parting shot of "You crapped out," when he informed that he knew of my impending divorce-- my SIL exposed the whole thing.

 

Hey DM...first off, wanted to say that it's glad to hear that you did the right thing by him after this was all said and done. You answered his questions, gave him what he needed to hear, and it sounds like you're taking the right tack of looking at this as a "done deal" now.

 

I'm curious about what I quoted above tho...and I apologize if I missed a reference to this somewhere else or in a previous post, but it sounds like you're now pending divorce because your SIL got wind of it and exposed the whole situation to your wife?

 

Is this something new and recent, or something you'd posted previously and I missed?

 

And I'm curious...what's your view on the end of your marriage in this circumstance?

 

Hang in there man...sounds like the situation is wrapping up and it'll be time to heal.