willowthewisp Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 to love someone is to care about their happiness as much as your own, it is a level of comfort and contentment in your being. I am not talking about "butterflies love" that is not love. I am not talking about lust that is not love. Love...real deep unconditional love goes beyond what mere words can describe, it endures...good and bad, in sickness and in health, for richer for poorer. These vows came from somewhere, for a reason. Love does not "expect" it does not "want" and it does not fade because one person is not getting what they want from the other or the other person is not performing to the others standards. What breaks my heart is to see so many people toss love, real love, away, like it is nothing. I see it here, I see it in my friends lives and I saw it when my ex took my love for him and threw it away. What it is to be loved...I loved my ex...no one has ever loved me and I wonder if any one ever will. I'm still single, I'm still attracting men who are a lot younger and I am still being treated like a whore by men my age who think every women out there just cannot wait to jump in the sack with them. It is better to have loved and lost than it is to have never loved at all...what a load of rubbish. If you had never loved you would never know what you are missing. That is what walk aways who only care for themseleves are blessed with. Ignorance is bliss. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Just imagine the emptiness of those who only know how to let someone love them and have nothing to give; nothing to share; no sense beyond themselves. Even if they've been loved often, what a lonely existence in that private place which knows only the id for whom the world is so small. It's such a gift to give love and some of us are more blessed than others with the renewable resource we call love. I give thanks for blessings every day. It's good to be alive. I hope things get better. Link to post Share on other sites
2.50 a gallon Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 The best way to describe it comes from Neil Diamonds' "Sweet Caroline" "And when I hurt, hurtin runs off my shoulder, how can I hurt when holding you?" Link to post Share on other sites
jaymz Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 It is better to have loved and lost than it is to have never loved at all...what a load of rubbish. If you had never loved you would never know what you are missing. That is what walk aways who only care for themseleves are blessed with. Ignorance is bliss. I disagree with you here willow. It is MUCH better to have loved and lost. While this has been a painful experince. I know what true love should be and while I cannot catpure that essence here in words as elequantly as some of the others have, but I do know it is worth it, as I have seen it with my own eyes. Walkaways are cowards, conflict avoiders, shallow etc. But they also have their own definition of love and what it entales. its a selfish version and they will never experince what true love is. carhill has put it beautifully. Link to post Share on other sites
Steadfast Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 You experienced love and a relationship, but he wasn't able to sustain it. So, while it was a long relationship, it wasn't a lasting one. Experience qualifies. When true love comes you'll appreciate it. That's saying something! Link to post Share on other sites
SBC Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Walkaways are cowards, conflict avoiders, shallow etc. But they also have their own definition of love and what it entales. its a selfish version and they will never experince what true love is. carhill has put it beautifully. This is a nasty paragraph. And a lot of wishful thinking. No wonder so many people are unhappy. They are so busy being angry at others, and wishing that the other person doesn't find happiness that they are unable to find their own. Nothing lasts forever. Not the Earth, not the sky and not relationships. NOTHING. And it takes courage and strength to move on from a relationship once it has ended. It beats the heck out of staying in a dead one hoping for a miracle. Why cant people accept that what they had was loving and successful, but when it is over it is over? And just because it is over does NOT mean that it was never loving and successful. I just dont get it. It is an argument with the very workings of life. THINGS END. But just becasue they end does not mean that it didn't exist and it wasn't important. Edited January 9, 2012 by SBC Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Whenever I glance up to the top of the bookcase and view that small container which came from the Neptune Society, I recall the example I was blessed with, both for how to be loved and how to love others. For awhile, I forgot the value of that example, and developed some unhealthy boundaries as a result, but life has a way of giving us second chances. Some people, and from my past readings of the OP, she sounds like one of them, choose people who let them love. I made such choices for many years. That is very different from a mutually synergistic love like I was modeled with and ignored or forgot. Often, it's only in retrospect that clarity provides the signposts of such dynamics. For myself it has been that, and has forged new boundaries and new resolve to grow from such experiences. Life, until I end up like the person in the box, provides new opportunities and new hope and new value *and* new love. Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Unconditional love is the kind of love we have for our children, because they are our flesh and blood whom we've brought into this world and cared for and raised. Romantic love is not the same. Romantic love comes and goes. People fall in and out of love. It's not unconditional. If we are mistreated, it can kill the love we have for a partner. If we loose respect for them or realize they are not what we want in a partner for whatever reason, we can fall out of love for a person. Romantic love is a feeling that can come and go, and needs to be nurtured in order to be kept alive. Even in the best of marriages, romantic love can come and go. Even in the best of marriages, love fluctuates over the years. It is the commitment to your spouse that holds the relationship together, even when the love is on the down cycle or the out cycle. If the commitment is not there, that is when the relationship fails when the love is on a downcycle. It's not realistic to think that your SO will continue to always feel deep love for you for a lifetime and never go through a downtime. It is only realistic to expect them to stay commited to their promise of permanency and fidelity. Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 OP, good point.... are you equating 'permanency and fidelity' to your description of 'unconditional love'? IOW, when someone remains true to you and faithful to you and stays with you, that is a major component of what you call 'unconditional love'? Also, do you feel that, strictly by the action, someone who walks away, as KathyM opined perhaps during a downcycle of love, *never* loved you? If so, can you examine the totality of the relationship with confidence in that clarity? IMO, we all have different love 'styles'. This was an outgrowth of the work my exW and I did in over a year of MC. Her style was valid for her and mine for me. I would be overreaching to state that she *never* loved me. I did clarify, however, that her love style was, intrinsically, never meaningful to me in a way that was healthy. We missed. It's possible that you (OP) and your fiance 'missed' as well, but thought there was middle ground of synergy, so remained in the dynamic for many years. That's one possible explanation of why you apparently feel he *never* loved you. I have known a few people like in my first post in this thread. I don't believe my exW was one of them. Just wanted to clarify that. Link to post Share on other sites
jaymz Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Walkaways are cowards, conflict avoiders, shallow etc. But they also have their own definition of love and what it entales. its a selfish version and they will never experince what true love is. carhill has put it beautifully. This is a nasty paragraph. And a lot of wishful thinking. No wonder so many people are unhappy. They are so busy being angry at others, and wishing that the other person doesn't find happiness that they are unable to find their own. I should have been more clear, this was directed at Willows WH rather than anyone else in particular and certain wasn't a generalization or a reflection of my anger, wishful thinking or unhappiness at anyone. Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 If someone walks away eventually, or falls out of love, that doesn't mean that they never truly loved you, or that their love for you was never real. Link to post Share on other sites
Severely Unamused Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Just imagine the emptiness of those who only know how to let someone love them and have nothing to give; nothing to share; no sense beyond themselves. Even if they've been loved often, what a lonely existence in that private place which knows only the id for whom the world is so small. It's such a gift to give love and some of us are more blessed than others with the renewable resource we call love. I give thanks for blessings every day. It's good to be alive. I hope things get better. Daaawww. Well said. Link to post Share on other sites
tojaz Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 [/url] What it is to Love, be loved and have been loved is different for everyone and to complicate it even more, those definitions are subject to change. I really like the way you describe it Willow, but I will say you do yourself a great disservice by changing yours. By saying that your ex never loved you robs you of some of the great experiences in your life, in a way it rewrites those chapters. Your ex committed a great injustice Willow, one that left you senselessly and selfishly hurt. There was a whole lot of time before that though, and there was a guy you loved and I will guarantee he loved you back. To try and deny that would be denying a part of your history and your own take on love. His actions are damaging enough without casting a shadow on well over a decade of your life. There was a point for me when i had to make a decision on how i wanted to remember my marriage and my ex, and it wasn't a very simple one looking back. The choice I made was to just be honest with myself and allow my memories to remain just a they were when they were made. I felt that was the most honest and gave the most credit to the relationship, my own feelings and actually helped me to heal to a degree. Willow, it has been a hard and bumpy road, but there was love for you, I'm sure of it, just as I am sure that there will be plenty of love in your future with someone who has the ability to make it endure. TOJAZ Link to post Share on other sites
Steadfast Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 If someone walks away eventually, or falls out of love, that doesn't mean that they never truly loved you, or that their love for you was never real. What mindless mush. Such thinking disqualifies commitment and honor, but only if you believe love is a decision, not an emotion. Otherwise, why promise? It would be better to say, "If someone walks away or falls out of love, it doesn't mean that they never truly wanted you, or that their want for you was never real." Maybe carhill is right...and this is the 'style' in which some love. But, IMO, it isn't love, it's selfishness disguised as love. Not genuine. If love is truly giving, you'd never leave to make yourself happier. 'Me first' is not love. Link to post Share on other sites
maybealone Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) If love is truly giving, you'd never leave to make yourself happier. 'Me first' is not love. On the other side of that, if love is truly giving, why would you want an unhappy partner to stay to make yourself happier? Shouldn't you put his or her happiness first? I think unconditional love exists to some degree. My dog, for example, would love me even if I ignored him and forgot to feed him. But we would not have the same relationship as when we walk together and play together every day. So I don't believe in unconditional relationships. If one person begins to neglect, manipulate, or control the other person, I don't believe love is going to be enough to sustain the relationship long term. Or if I decide I want to get drunk every night or move to the woods and live off the grid in a handmade shack, I don't think love is enough to make a partner go along with that without compromise. A commitment, to me, means you promise to work as hard as you can on the relationship and find compromises that work. It is not, in my opinion, a guarantee that you can do whatever you want and expect the relationship to never change. Really, if love was enough to sustain a relationship, why would we all not marry the first person we fall in love with? (For the record, I am only speaking generally about how I think relationships can fail even when there was/is love, not speaking about anyone's specific relationship.) Edited January 11, 2012 by maybealone Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 What mindless mush. Such thinking disqualifies commitment and honor, but only if you believe love is a decision, not an emotion. Otherwise, why promise? It would be better to say, "If someone walks away or falls out of love, it doesn't mean that they never truly wanted you, or that their want for you was never real." Maybe carhill is right...and this is the 'style' in which some love. But, IMO, it isn't love, it's selfishness disguised as love. Not genuine. If love is truly giving, you'd never leave to make yourself happier. 'Me first' is not love. Love is an emotion that can come and go. Commitment is a decision and a promise. People can fall out of love with each other, but still honor their commitment to you. People can break their commitment, but still be in love with you. They are two different things. Love is an emotion. Commitment is a decision. Link to post Share on other sites
worldgonewrong Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Love is an emotion that can come and go. Commitment is a decision and a promise. People can fall out of love with each other, but still honor their commitment to you. People can break their commitment, but still be in love with you. They are two different things. Love is an emotion. Commitment is a decision. I disagree. I love my kids. It's not an emotion that waxes and wains. Honoring a commitment generally means love -- in the context of a deep relationship. If a person breaks a commitment, then they're not still in love with you. They're in love with the idea of love. But they're unable to realize that love AND commitment go hand-in-hand. Simple, really. Edited January 11, 2012 by worldgonewrong Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I disagree. I love my kids. It's not an emotion that waxes and wains. Honoring a commitment generally means love -- in the context of a deep relationship. If a person breaks a commitment, then they're not still in love with you. They're in love with the idea of love. But they're unable to realize that love AND commitment go hand-in-hand. Simple, really. I make the distinction between unconditional love and romantic love. Unconditional love is what you have for your children. Romantic love is what you have for your partner. There are a lot of loveless marriages out there. People whose love has dwindled or died, but who stay in their marriage because of the commitment they made. The thing with romantic love is, though, that it does come and go and can be rekindled in a marriage, which is why commitment is so important, because that is what gets you through the rough times when your feelings for your spouse are lacking. There are also a lot of people who love someone, but realize they can't stay together with the person. Maybe the person is drug addicted or has some other serious issue, and a partner doesn't feel they can stay with him any longer. They may still love the person, but they still end the relationship. Link to post Share on other sites
Soxfaninfl Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 It is better to have loved and lost than it is to have never loved at all...what a load of rubbish. If you had never loved you would never know what you are missing. That is what walk aways who only care for themseleves are blessed with. Ignorance is bliss. It's funny I said the same thing to my counselor. I would have preferred to have never loved at all. Divorce is too painful and hearing someone tell you they don't love you anymore. I wish I could get over her already. Link to post Share on other sites
Soxfaninfl Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Love...real deep unconditional love goes beyond what mere words can describe, it endures...good and bad, in sickness and in health, for richer for poorer. These vows came from somewhere, for a reason. Love does not "expect" it does not "want" and it does not fade because one person is not getting what they want from the other or the other person is not performing to the others standards. This the love I had for my ex-wife of 11 years, but she threw me away. I loved her so much I would have given my life for her. You know the meaning of true love, and I hope someday I find a love like yours. Link to post Share on other sites
worldgonewrong Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 thanks for the clarification, KathyM. I agree with what you're saying. Link to post Share on other sites
Steadfast Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) On the other side of that, if love is truly giving, why would you want an unhappy partner to stay to make yourself happier? Shouldn't you put his or her happiness first? Interesting thought...twisted, but interesting. Otherwise you've contradicted yourself. No question it takes two to make a marriage work, and if both partners are giving how could this problem ever come up? If one person begins to neglect, manipulate, or control the other person, I don't believe love is going to be enough to sustain the relationship long term. Or if I decide I want... Isn't that always the key phrase? Your point is common. Sadly, it isn't at all what this discussion is about. Why do so many try to justify 'wanting what they want' or 'having a change of heart'. To that, my previous post is directed. Got anything else? Love is an emotion. Commitment is a decision. Romantic passion is a emotion Kathy. Love is a decision and commitment puts is that decision into action. Edited January 12, 2012 by Steadfast Link to post Share on other sites
Feelin Frisky Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I don't believe in this thing called "unconditional" love. That's a condition in and of itself. Love is "bonding" with someone after which you just want them in your future and this feeling of respect, trust, esteem, desire just gets stronger. For it work though we shouldn't delude ourselves that there aren't conditions. My number one condition that I practice is never trashing my partner's feelings by indulging anger or displeasure over temporary small stuff. If she manages her demeanor similarly, and makes the same investments of forgiveness and withholding of displays in temperament in me, I'll totally love her and treasure her. Other "conditions" include the obvious--being on the same sex wavelength, attraction wavelength, considerateness wavelength et al. Link to post Share on other sites
maybealone Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Interesting thought...twisted, but interesting. Otherwise you've contradicted yourself. No question it takes two to make a marriage work, and if both partners are giving how could this problem ever come up? It wouldn't, if both partners are giving and remain equally giving throughout an entire marriage. But if one person loves another one unconditionally, and the unconditionally loved person changes to become less giving (or not giving at all), then presumably it will all be up to the giving person to make all the sacrifices to continue the relationship. I think this is why I don't believe in unconditional love for a partner, because I don't think people will never change. Which can be a good thing; I don't think I would want a relationship that never evolved. I also don't think I would want to be in a relationship with someone that continually put my happiness first, since that is dangerously close to making that person responsible for my happiness. Your point is common. Sadly, it isn't at all what this discussion is about. Why do so many try to justify 'wanting what they want' or 'having a change of heart'. To that, my previous post is directed. Got anything else? I don't see how this is irrelevant. If unconditional love exists, it doesn't mean one partner isn't going to want something at some point. In a perfect world there would always be a compromise that makes both people happy. But oftentimes, there is regret or resentment. Say two people get married with the agreement that they not have children. One person isn't allowed to change their mind? Or they aren't allowed to discuss it with their partner or let it affect the relationship if they do? I don't believe in this thing called "unconditional" love. That's a condition in and of itself. Love is "bonding" with someone after which you just want them in your future and this feeling of respect, trust, esteem, desire just gets stronger. For it work though we shouldn't delude ourselves that there aren't conditions. I like this theory. I agree that a bond is what holds people together, and the strength of that bond comes from the work that both partners put into the relationship. If one stops investing in the relationship, that affects the bond. It's the same with child-parent relationships. Parents love their adult children unconditionally, but if that child treats them badly, they might not have the kind of bond that makes them want to spend time with each other. Edited January 12, 2012 by maybealone Link to post Share on other sites
Steadfast Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 It wouldn't, if both partners are giving and remain equally giving throughout an entire marriage. But if one person loves another one unconditionally, and the unconditionally loved person... The phrase 'unconditional love' never appeared in any of my posts. I don't see it as a requirement for a lasting, loving relationship nor do I believe it to be completely realistic. If perfection was a requirement for success everyone would be divorced. There are always conditions and standards, but if a person truly loved and cared for their partner they wouldn't be looking for loopholes to end it. If that be the case, why start? The answer to that hints at the real problem, and exposes false love. You can toss out as many hypothetical theories as you want maybealone. There are as many excuses and rationalizations as there are people. Link to post Share on other sites
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