I went dutch at the end. If you were her would you date me again?

[KathyM]

Well, it's an interesting catch-22. I have a long standing history of women taking advantage of my generosity.

 

In 2008 I dumped by GF at the mall because she was literally throwing a temper tantrum. I wouldnt buy her this dress... I just sat there dumbfounded for a minute and then said I'm done. I don't think she was like that with other guys. I think I allowed her to treat me like that. My most recent xGF 2010 basically duped me into loaning her money for plastic surgery while she was cheating with another guy.

 

In the end I can't blame these women... I have to blame myself. So... I harden my heart and learn not to trust.

So you went from one extreme to another. Being taken advantage of by women, and agreeing to pay for, or loan money for, her plastic surgery (new boobs, no doubt ), so you feel the need to go to the extreme in the opposite direction. Well, there is a nice middle ground between being a doormat who is taken advantaged of by women, and being a cheapskate. Neither extreme is a good thing. Women will not respect you if you try to buy their affection. Women will think you're cheap if you nickle and dime them.

[Woggle]

So you went from one extreme to another. Being taken advantage of by women, and agreeing to pay for, or loan money for, her plastic surgery (new boobs, no doubt ), so you feel the need to go to the extreme in the opposite direction. Well, there is a nice middle ground between being a doormat who is taken advantaged of by women, and being a cheapskate. Neither extreme is a good thing. Women will not respect you if you try to buy their affection. Women will think you're cheap if you nickle and dime them.

 

After reading his history with women I don't blame him one bit.

[kaylan]

I don't consider dating to be this tit for tat kind of thing. I think it's just common courtesy to pick up the tab if you invite someone on a date. I also don't expect dating to be some super expensive thing either. Some of the best dates can be things that don't cost much. I just think it comes off as cheap if a guy suggests splitting the bill when he was the one who invited and planned for the date. That's all I'm saying. There are plenty of men out there who do pay for the date when they are the ones inviting. So that is your competition, gentlemen. If you come across as a cheapskate or a pennypincher, that's usually a red flag for most women. Bottom line.

I dont think its tit for tat. I think things should be equal without any expectations or entitlements. Stop falling back on the "the person who asks should pay" argument because we all know men ask women a great portion of the time. Women barely outright ask dudes to hang outgo on dates. They may ask them to chill and do something, but hardly ever ask to take them out.

 

You keep thinking its only about money. Its not. Its about unnecessary expectations and setting the wrong precedent in a relationship. I dont spend money on strangers either...cheap or expensive. I have no reason to unless Im invested in them and know them a lil bit.

 

If there was a guy here saying he only ever went on dates with women who asked him out and that he expected them to pay since they asked...you know damn well that hed be getting the stink eye from the girls here.

 

I think it comes off cheap when women like you expect me to pay for them as if we are not both independent, working adults. This is why I ask girls to come hang with me in groups or do really low key stuff when we first chill. So I can feel them out and see if I have to axe them for any behavior I dislike. If I waited around for women to ask me to chill all the time, Id never date. Because like I said, we know you ladies wont ask a guy to hang out most of the time...so even if you like him, some of you will sit around and wait for him to take you out and pay.

 

I dont want to take someone out. I want to go out together with someone and enjoy ourselves. We can take each other out once weve established some exclusivity. And the men who pay usually do it because they feel society tells them they have to. I already explained that Ive still hooked up with these entitled girls, without paying a cent. If a girl likes men, she likes me, and nothing is changing that. If she wants to walk because of some stupid money issue, by all means. Im not desperate and her entitlement is her own red flag.

 

Theres a big disconnect between LS and the real world...because most women I come across who I share this idea with never have a problem with it. Maybe its because I grew up in a liberal area and went to a pretty liberal school. Or maybe Its that im awesome and girls like my personality and know itd be stupid to bail for petty reasoning when they already know I make them feel great. No girl gets special treatment different from the rest of my friends until shes special to me.

 

Maybe the girls Ive met have all been European...because they are def more equal over there. No princess thinking. My euro classmates always told me how stupid they thought it was that American girls felt they needed men to do this or do that for them. The fact that theyd ask American boys out and take them out put them miles ahead of the rest of the girls. Whatever works I guess.

Edited January 11, 2012 by kaylan

[Disenchantedly Yours]

If there was a guy here saying he only ever went on dates with women who asked him out and that he expected them to pay since they asked...you know damn well that hed be getting the stink eye from the girls here.

 

I know of plenty of men that only go out with certain women for certain shallow reasons. Lets stop the stanctimonious ideals that men are these equal-oppurtunity-I-treat-women-with-respect-I-don't-have-any-expectations gender. However, it's not ususally going to show up in money matters. That's the only difference.

 

I think it comes off cheap when women like you expect me to pay for them as if we are not both independent, working adults. This is why I ask girls to come hang with me in groups or do really low key stuff when we first chill. So I can feel them out and see if I have to axe them for any behavior I dislike.

 

When a guy has asked me to come and hang out in a group, it was fine. But it was ususally after we had a few dates. If he is only asking the woman he is romantically interested in to a group event so he doesn't have to pay, only doing it to avoid having to pay for anything, then that says something about him. If he was doing it to get to know me better, that's fine. But motiviation means a lot. If a man's already counting his coins as soon as he meets me and holds a bitter attitude, it's going to eventually come through and a woman will pick up on it. Of if he holds the idea that I am not allowed to deteremine how I want to be treated without him calling me names for it (I.E. princess), that attitude of his will eventually come out in different ways.

 

I dont want to take someone out. I want to go out together with someone and enjoy ourselves. We can take each other out once weve established some exclusivity.

 

Do you attempt for sex before your exclusive? How many men do you think try to "get some" from a woman before giving her exclusivity?

 

I find that certain men can be tight with their wallets and hold this "not until we are exclusive" mentality. Yet, they are happy to push for sex before exclusivity.

 

And the men who pay usually do it because they feel society tells them they have to. I already explained that Ive still hooked up with these entitled girls, without paying a cent. If a girl likes men, she likes me, and nothing is changing that. If she wants to walk because of some stupid money issue, by all means. Im not desperate and her entitlement is her own red flag.

 

You're attitude doesn't sound much better then these girls that feel entitled for you to pay. You just found a way to work around it. It however doesn't change your core attitude or make you different from these type of women ironically. You're both looking to "get yours" with no thought to how to treat the other person.

 

I know many men that pay because they like to be gentleman. However, with younger and younger generations, younger men loose more and more of that gentlemaness. And yet still hold expectations for women while not wanting any expectations held to them. That's the sad reality. Which is why probably so many young men struggle in dating. They never learn or take the time to learn how to treat a woman like she wants to be treated. And if there are ways a woman wants to be treated, there are names that have been made to call her and deminish her for having dared have her own set of expectations on the kind of relationship she wants.

 

No girl gets special treatment different from the rest of my friends until shes special to me.

 

If she doesn't get "special treatment" in anyway, then how do you even build a different relationship with her compared to your friends?

 

I am not "one of the guys". If a guy treats me like that expecting me to develop warm fuzzy feelings for him, he is fooling himself.

 

Maybe the girls Ive met have all been European...because they are def more equal over there. No princess thinking. My euro classmates always told me how stupid they thought it was that American girls felt they needed men to do this or do that for them. The fact that theyd ask American boys out and take them out put them miles ahead of the rest of the girls. Whatever works I guess.

 

Why is it stupid? A woman is going to have more success with a man that is open and sharing of himself in many regards then one that folds his arms over his chest, stomps his feet, and looks for ways to "get his" while mocking her for wanting to be treated like a woman. And yes, whether you like it or not, being treated like a woman includes certain gentlmenlike behavior from a man that shows her she is special, she isn't "one of the crowd" and that he doesn't just want her for sex. This can include paying for a nice dinner, or taking her on a picnic from a basket he made. Since picnic baskets cost money, this also requires he spends money. Because doing alot of things in this world require spending some amount of money. However, if he doesn't have much, he can take her to the park and buy her and ice cream and spend time with her.

 

Just find a woman that agrees with you about the whole payment thing. But stop mocking women and putting them down, the ones who feel differently from you. Just don't date the women that are more old fashioned. It's a preference. Nothing more.

 

The fact that you hold so much bitterness toward this concept tells me you have had more experience with it then you claim. And the fact that you attempt to shame women by pitting European women (the grass is always greener) and their dating style against American women, is very telling.

 

There are all kinds of women out there and it's about finding one that fits into yours. Not shaming other women for wanting a certain kind of man that you simply aren't.

[soserious1]

It's been so long since I've allowed a man to even buy me a cup of coffee that I can't remember the last time it happened.

 

When I go out which is pretty frequently,I manage to ALWAYS take care of the full bill for the drinks, meal, whatever. I excuse myself to the powder room & grab the waiter, slip him my credit card, take care of the tab then return to the table.

 

Let me tell you that men LOVE sugar mama's & most of them have zero qualms about ordering the most expensive things on the menu when they know the woman is paying. Love watching a guy sliding that prime rib between his lips, eat hearty dear, you'll need the energy later.

 

I expect equal work opportunities? Then why shouldn't I also expect to share equally in the burden of asking men out and paying their way?

[kaylan]

I know of plenty of men that only go out with certain women for certain shallow reasons. Lets stop the stanctimonious ideals that men are these equal-oppurtunity-I-treat-women-with-respect-I-don't-have-any-expectations gender. However, it's not ususally going to show up in money matters. That's the only difference.

I am not plenty of men though. I am me. I expect an equal relationship.

 

I expect us to be PARTNERS. We both do the same things for one another that the other would. We should share the same expectations of one another. If she expects me to pay for her, she should have no issue if I expect the same.

When a guy has asked me to come and hang out in a group, it was fine. But it was ususally after we had a few dates. If he is only asking the woman he is romantically interested in to a group event so he doesn't have to pay, only doing it to avoid having to pay for anything, then that says something about him. If he was doing it to get to know me better, that's fine. But motiviation means a lot. If a man's already counting his coins as soon as he meets me and holds a bitter attitude, it's going to eventually come through and a woman will pick up on it. Of if he holds the idea that I am not allowed to deteremine how I want to be treated without him calling me names for it (I.E. princess), that attitude of his will eventually come out in different ways.

Ive asked girls Ive talked to a few times if they wanted to come out with a few people I knew. It lessons the pressure on both sides. I could ask her if shed like to hit up a nice little venue with free live music, or check out something going on in the park one day. Usually we have already been talking for a little bit and have gone for coffee or whatever.

 

Look at that, no one has spent money on the other. No expectations. Taking things slow as friends first. Thats how I do it. The fact that you take such issue with this makes no sense to me.

 

The attitude that I have about this whole deal comes out right from the beginning with women I meet. Its never done me any harm. If she feels a man should take her out and woo her, Im not that guy, and we can be friends, but thats it. I only woo women who would have no problem doing the same with me. Guys want to feel wanted to ya know. And I expect to receive what i give in a relationship.

 

My chick and guy friends treat me, and I treat them sometimes. It works both ways. If it was one sided, resentment would begin usually. No one likes a one sided arrangement. The possibility of sex doesnt change that in my eyes.

 

Please dont talk about motivation. My motivation is to meet a woman who feels the same way about me, and will want to treat me as generously as Id treat her. I have no problem showing a girl a good time, as long as she is awesome enough to want to do the same. Its selfish to ask someone to do something for you that you wouldnt do for them. And many women dont want to be the ones to treat a guy or chip in. At leas according to online threads. Luckily I havent run into too many of those gals.

 

Do you attempt for sex before your exclusive? How many men do you think try to "get some" from a woman before giving her exclusivity?

 

I find that certain men can be tight with their wallets and hold this "not until we are exclusive" mentality. Yet, they are happy to push for sex before exclusivity.

It depends on the guy if he tries to have sex before being exclusive. It also depends on the woman and the situation.

If I have already determined I like her enough to be hers and hers alone, then I have no problem being exclusive before sex.

 

I wont say this has anything to do with paying. I have had girlfriends and girls who were just friends, or FWBs who I spent money on and who also spent money on me. I usually spend more freely with a girlfriend because I am invested in her emotionally. But that doesnt mean I wont spend at all on non-girlfriends. I basically treat a woman the way she treats me.

 

You're attitude doesn't sound much better then these girls that feel entitled for you to pay. You just found a way to work around it. It however doesn't change your core attitude or make you different from these type of women ironically. You're both looking to "get yours" with no thought to how to treat the other person.

Actually my attitude is much better in my opinion. I dont have expectations of sex (as some guys do) or someone paying for me (as some women do). I only expect to be treat in the same manner I treat the woman. If she intends to treat me a bit, I have no problem treating her.

 

Im not looking to "get mine". Im looking for equal reciprocity. Thats all. I dont need to spend money to treat a woman well. I just dont feel that one person should be treated one way, and the other treated differently. Like I said, that would be selfish.

 

I know many men that pay because they like to be gentleman. However, with younger and younger generations, younger men loose more and more of that gentlemaness. And yet still hold expectations for women while not wanting any expectations held to them. That's the sad reality. Which is why probably so many young men struggle in dating. They never learn or take the time to learn how to treat a woman like she wants to be treated. And if there are ways a woman wants to be treated, there are names that have been made to call her and deminish her for having dared have her own set of expectations on the kind of relationship she wants.

Lmao, you think they are gentlemen. But when some guys sit around and talk about this, many of them feel they have to pay because society dictates so. They fear the reaction of females if they dont. If you asked men if they could go dutch more often than not, and women would never look at them different for it, they would go for it.

 

Sure I like to take a girl out and make her feel cared for...but not when she thinks Im supposed to do that, even if shed never do so herself. Feel me?

 

I wont hold any woman to standards I do not hold to myself. I expect myself to be fit, well spoken, smart, polite, and a gentleman...without my money being tied into that. Any girl Ive dated knows the gentleman I am. She gets that side of me because shes an equally kind lady. Ill hold open doors, walk on the outside of the sidewalk, show her an awesome night on the town for her birthday, and then cook for her in the morning after a great night of bed fun(lol). Im kind to kind gals.

 

If a womans idea of a relationship is different than mine, we are simply not compatible. No biggie...we move on because there are other people out there with our relationship styles in mind.

 

I just dont think my willingness to spend on strangers or someone who wouldnt do the same for me, should be used to determine how well I could treat a woman. I know Id make an awesome boyfriend and im pretty sure women know that to. Which is why I can operate the way I do and have women still talk to me, despite what some in this forum say. Im sure I could take the most high maintenance girl and turn her world upside down because I could make her feel good despite what I choose to do with my wallet. Wishful thinking maybe, but whatevs.

 

 

If she doesn't get "special treatment" in anyway, then how do you even build a different relationship with her compared to your friends?

 

I am not "one of the guys". If a guy treats me like that expecting me to develop warm fuzzy feelings for him, he is fooling himself.

I want us to be friends first, lovers second. I want to be able to shoot the sh!!t with her. When a girl shows me she can connect with me and that wed make great friends, itll trigger possible girlfriend interest.

 

Once the girlfriend interest starts, the rest follows. But we need to be good friends first. Or else I only see her as a hookup. Cant have girlfriend without friends. Then the special treatment will come, but I would like special treatment as well. Ya know?

 

 

Why is it stupid? A woman is going to have more success with a man that is open and sharing of himself in many regards then one that folds his arms over his chest, stomps his feet, and looks for ways to "get his" while mocking her for wanting to be treated like a woman. And yes, whether you like it or not, being treated like a woman includes certain gentlmenlike behavior from a man that shows her she is special, she isn't "one of the crowd" and that he doesn't just want her for sex. This can include paying for a nice dinner, or taking her on a picnic from a basket he made. Since picnic baskets cost money, this also requires he spends money. Because doing alot of things in this world require spending some amount of money. However, if he doesn't have much, he can take her to the park and buy her and ice cream and spend time with her.

 

Its stupid when these women dont want to treat a man the same way he treats them. If she wants me to open and share, than she should be able to do the same in kind.

 

And what is being treated like a woman? I mean lets be real...times have changed...all these courtships actions happen to men too. Maybe not to the same degree though. But guys do get asked and taken out. Why cant it just be about treating someone like they are special regardless of gender.

 

If its gentlemanly to pay for a woman, since it makes her feel special...what should I feel about the new buddy I just met who will treat me to a few drinks, even though I JUST met him in the bar. This has happened to me. We became bros and took turns buying rounds. I couldnt imagine doing this with a woman I just met.

 

So how am I special? Am I more special to new bar friends and my friends who will buy me dinner when we go out? Or the girl who lets her guy pay for everything 85% of the time?

 

Why is it about taking her on picnics, and to dinner. Its a freaking shame ya know. Guys will tell you they like romance too, but that it seems that many women only know how to receive romance and not how to give it. Its my experience that most of the romantic things that have occurred in my love life has mostly been by my doing. Itd be nice for that to not always be the case.

 

Just find a woman that agrees with you about the whole payment thing. But stop mocking women and putting them down, the ones who feel differently from you. Just don't date the women that are more old fashioned. It's a preference. Nothing more.

 

The fact that you hold so much bitterness toward this concept tells me you have had more experience with it then you claim. And the fact that you attempt to shame women by pitting European women (the grass is always greener) and their dating style against American women, is very telling.

 

There are all kinds of women out there and it's about finding one that fits into yours. Not shaming other women for wanting a certain kind of man that you simply aren't.

I will find a girl who agrees with my viewpoint. Does not mean I have to stop stating the truth about how one sided entitled romance is. Id have no issue being the most romantic dude in the history of romance...but screw that if its one sided.

 

Who says I am bitter? Dont try to dismiss my viewpoint by simply calling it bitter. I just treat people how they treat me. Its simple. If gay dudes and lesbians can do that, why cant hetero men and women in relationships?

 

The fact that I state the factual differences in American and European dating is very telling in the fact that the USA is still stuck holding onto archaic dating norms. We havent moved forward with the rest of the Western world. You can cry and call my criticism shaming all you want. It doesnt change this fact.

 

Its just refreshing for a guy to be treated like a prize that must be won...thats why guys get all giddy when a girl buys him a drink, or asks him out, or whatever else. My way of doing things hasnt hurt my chances with women who expect to be woo'd...so Im going to keep doing what I do.

 

People like to feel wanted. Man or woman.

Edited January 11, 2012 by kaylan

[bean1]

Kaylan, be the one to carry, birth, and nurse a baby 24/7 for months while hobbling on stitches and tell me that male/female partnerships can ever truly be equal. Going on a few dates to a restaurant isn't much in the grand scheme of things - as time goes on and life evolves naturally, you will find that you cannot ignore ingrained gender differences.

 

The United States is VERY "progressive" in terms of equality, which some Americans simply cannot see. Of course, this "progressiveness" is accelerated in some areas (ridiculous 6 week maternity leave when the rest of the western world has 1-2 years), but terribly behind in others (the cheque at a restaurant? How about a child being born fatherless if unmarried and requiring official DNA in order to get ANY visitation, even if the child has been reared by the man for 10+ years!).

[xxoo]

Well the thing was that at the bar when I got the tab. She asked if I needed help with that or if she could chip in. I had already put the money down and she asks me that...ok. I said "nah don't worry about it, if you want to though - I was thinking of hitting up the restaurant and if you want you can cover me there."

 

Strictly talking money, you may have backed her into a corner expecting her to pay more than she could.

 

By inviting her to a second place (bar, then restaurant), you made the date more expensive. She might have been able to afford half of a $20 date (her share of the bar tab), but not half of a $40 date.

[Woggle]

Many men have stopped being gentlemen because many women have lost the traits that make us want to be gentlemen.

 

It seams that some women like to pick and choose which areas they want to be equal and turn everything to their benefit.

 

Also women like sex just for it's own sake just like men do. Sometimes sex is the end goal while paying for somebody is usually a means to an end. The sex argument would work if women were not as into casual sex as men are these days. I agree though that if you want casual sex you should be honest from the start.

[fortyninethousand322]

Many men have stopped being gentlemen because many women have lost the traits that make us want to be gentlemen.

 

It seams that some women like to pick and choose which areas they want to be equal and turn everything to their benefit.

 

Also women like sex just for it's own sake just like men do. Sometimes sex is the end goal while paying for somebody is usually a means to an end. The sex argument would work if women were not as into casual sex as men are these days. I agree though that if you want casual sex you should be honest from the start.

 

In my own experience, FAR more women than men are into casual sex these days because they don't want to be "bogged down" in a relationship. It's a myth that men are after sex and women are vulnerable victims in the hoookup culture. They're just the same as men.

[Woggle]

In my own experience, FAR more women than men are into casual sex these days because they don't want to be "bogged down" in a relationship. It's a myth that men are after sex and women are vulnerable victims in the hoookup culture. They're just the same as men.

 

Very true so let's stop this stuff about women being victims of men who used them for sex.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I am not plenty of men though. I am me. I expect an equal relationship.

 

I expect us to be PARTNERS. We both do the same things for one another that the other would. We should share the same expectations of one another. If she expects me to pay for her, she should have no issue if I expect the same.

 

Being partners doesn't mean that everything is going to tally up tit for tat. And expecting it to through life is going to leave you frustrated and annoyed most of the time.

 

I am not in a relationship right now but when I am, I do things for my guy that are probably pretty old school stereotype. I do this EVEN in the beginning stages of getting to know a man to show him what I'm about and what *I* have to offer. All I hear on these threads are men whining about how much they deserve to "take" and very little about what *you* as a man have to offer yourself or give.

 

I have cooked lovely meals for men and never expected them to lift a hand while I have done the work. I have bought things for them that I thought they would like while I was out just "because" I wanted to give them a present, not because of a special occasion. I have made sure my fridge was stocked with their beer of choice if he was going to be coming over. And not once did I whine about how much dent that put in my wallet. Neither did I whine about "equality" just because I was the one cooking the meal. I have gotten down on my knees and happily given a man oral with no expectations of anything in return. I have taken care of his dog if he was going away for a trip. I bet no man would complain about these acts. Yet you, you complain if you have to buy a girl a $10 dollar dinner with maybe a 7 dollar drink. Geez. Maybe I should stop doing these things for men because they certainly aren't "equal".

 

This isn't about "equality", this is about certain men wanting to "take" everything they can from a woman without thinking about what they can "give". Relationships our about giving and sometimes giving things of yourself that you might not get back immediately. Relationships are messy and not always "equal" in exactly the same terms.

 

Ive asked girls Ive talked to a few times if they wanted to come out with a few people I knew. It lessons the pressure on both sides. I could ask her if shed like to hit up a nice little venue with free live music, or check out something going on in the park one day. Usually we have already been talking for a little bit and have gone for coffee or whatever.

 

I think these are nice things to do. I just think if you are doing them because you don't want to have to "pay" for her, then your motivation to doing them aren't from a healthy place.

 

 

The attitude that I have about this whole deal comes out right from the beginning with women I meet. Its never done me any harm. If she feels a man should take her out and woo her, Im not that guy, and we can be friends, but thats it. I only woo women who would have no problem doing the same with me. Guys want to feel wanted to ya know. And I expect to receive what i give in a relationship.

 

Women SHOULD woo men too. Because relationships are about caring about someone else. relationships are about doing things for someone else because YOU want to. But if you are keeping score on everything making sure you get "yours", then you're just selfish. But if I ever conducted my relationships like you where I wasn't willing to give parts of myself or my money to him, then I would have missed out on a lot of nice moments.

 

Please dont talk about motivation. My motivation is to meet a woman who feels the same way about me, and will want to treat me as generously as Id treat her. I have no problem showing a girl a good time, as long as she is awesome enough to want to do the same. Its selfish to ask someone to do something for you that you wouldnt do for them. And many women dont want to be the ones to treat a guy or chip in. At leas according to online threads. Luckily I havent run into too many of those gals.

 

I'll talk about motivation because it's really important. And I see a lot of men on here that don't want to have to do anything for a woman but expect sex and affection.

 

I totally DO think you should find a woman that feels the same way about it you do. But you don't get to shame other women who want a different kind of man from what you are. Just because a woman holds expectations about being treated a certain way, just as YOU do, doesn't give you the right to call them names like "princess" to shame them.

 

It depends on the guy if he tries to have sex before being exclusive. It also depends on the woman and the situation.

 

If I have already determined I like her enough to be hers and hers alone, then I have no problem being exclusive before sex.

 

I see. So when it comes to sex, "it depends..." but when it comes to money, what is yours is yours and be damned that a woman is going to take your money away from you!

 

I wont say this has anything to do with paying. I have had girlfriends and girls who were just friends, or FWBs who I spent money on and who also spent money on me. I usually spend more freely with a girlfriend because I am invested in her emotionally. But that doesnt mean I wont spend at all on non-girlfriends. I basically treat a woman the way she treats me.

 

And I bet women treat you how you treat them in return. All I hear is "me, me, me". Relationships are about two people. giving and receiving. And sometimes, at some point, someone is going to have to be the *first* to give something to the other. Whether it's money or something else. That's how relationships work.

 

Lmao, you think they are gentlemen. But when some guys sit around and talk about this, many of them feel they have to pay because society dictates so. They fear the reaction of females if they dont. If you asked men if they could go dutch more often than not, and women would never look at them different for it, they would go for it.

 

I've been out with enough men to know which ones act like paying is torture and which ones pay because they believe it to be the gentlemen like thing to do. I have also been out with men that had no qualms about not paying and wanted to go dutch even thought THEY asked me out. Such men never got a second date.

 

 

Sure I like to take a girl out and make her feel cared for...but not when she thinks Im supposed to do that, even if shed never do so herself. Feel me?

 

Not really. While relationships should be about give and take, I seem more commentary from here from men about "taking" then I ever see men talk about what they have to give.

 

I do not deny that relationships should be about giving and taking. They should. But they are never goign to match tit for tat. Especially if there are certain things that you as a man enjoy vs certain things she as a woman enjoys. Men and women are equal but we are also sometiems different. Sometimes how a man treats a woman can make her feel liek a woman and vice versa. But it seems that a lot of men want to stomp on women's head's and crush their spirit while taking everything they can from a woman.

 

I wont hold any woman to standards I do not hold to myself. I expect myself to be fit, well spoken, smart, polite, and a gentleman...without my money being tied into that. Any girl Ive dated knows the gentleman I am. She gets that side of me because shes an equally kind lady. Ill hold open doors, walk on the outside of the sidewalk, show her an awesome night on the town for her birthday, and then cook for her in the morning after a great night of bed fun(lol). Im kind to kind gals.

 

So then why, if you do all these wonderful old fashion things, is the paying aspect such a hurt for you? If you give your kindness, your curtesy, your respect and a billion other things you as a man give when you hold doors open and treat her well, why is it that when it comes to money, that it's so important to you that you think a woman is taken advantage of you for your money when you would never think that when you hold doors open and do other gentlemen like things for a woman?

 

If a womans idea of a relationship is different than mine, we are simply not compatible. No biggie...we move on because there are other people out there with our relationship styles in mind.

 

This I agree with. You just need to stop calling women that want a different kind of relationship then you names. Like "princess". In a means to shame them for their own unique set of needs.

 

Its stupid when these women dont want to treat a man the same way he treats them. If she wants me to open and share, than she should be able to do the same in kind.

 

Before you mentioned you held doors open for women and did that kind of stuff. How often do your gfs hold doors open for you and how does that happen? Is it a race to the door to see who gets the door first? Sometimes you hold it open and other times she does?

 

And what is being treated like a woman? I mean lets be real...times have changed...all these courtships actions happen to men too. Maybe not to the same degree though. But guys do get asked and taken out. Why cant it just be about treating someone like they are special regardless of gender.

 

Yes times have changed. And our country seems set on running to androgyny which I personally think is going to lead to our downfall, not more "equality". I am a woman and I enjoy being one. When a man treats me a certain way, it makes me feel even more feminine and it's a wonderful feeling. I suspect a lot of men respond the same way when a woman treats him a certain way. I don't want to be some "genderless" person of "equality". HOw boring. Everyone should be treated with respect and treated equal. But being treated with respect and being equal doesn't mean we are teh same. Since I was made a woman, there are parts of me that respond like a woman. You can't take "gender" out of the equation in the hopes for "real equality". That's never going to work despite our countries desire to do so lately. We should respect men and women and understand our similaities and differences and celebrate them in healthy ways. Not push to shove out anything that distinguishes men from women. Being a man is a wonderful thing and so is a woman. And men and women are attracted to each other becaues they do infact bring different things to the table sometimes. (Clearly it's different for homosexual couples who get different things out of their relationships and who are JUST as deserving of respect.) But just because of that, doesn't mean we should obliterate gender.

 

If its gentlemanly to pay for a woman, since it makes her feel special...what should I feel about the new buddy I just met who will treat me to a few drinks, even though I JUST met him in the bar. This has happened to me. We became bros and took turns buying rounds. I couldnt imagine doing this with a woman I just met.

 

Yes, I mentioned this myself before. I have seen men spend more money on other men for each other with more openesses display then I have seen men spend money on other women. When it comes to other men, you don't think so much about what you get out of it. YOu met some guys, you liked them, you bought them some drinks and they bought you some drinks. But funny when it comes to women how close fisted some men become. All the sudden it's about her taken advantage of you.

 

So how am I special? Am I more special to new bar friends and my friends who will buy me dinner when we go out? Or the girl who lets her guy pay for everything 85% of the time?

 

I think you might have more respect for your guy friends that buy you dinner because your looking to him as another man, you aren't looking at him through a sheen of potential sex partner. It takes a lot of question off the table. With women, you and other men fear being used. With other men, you don't have the same fear. So you display more openess and generocity toward other men because certain factors are taken out then you do with women and women pick up on that within their dates.

 

Why is it about taking her on picnics, and to dinner. Its a freaking shame ya know. Guys will tell you they like romance too, but that it seems that many women only know how to receive romance and not how to give it. Its my experience that most of the romantic things that have occurred in my love life has mostly been by my doing. Itd be nice for that to not always be the case.

 

Why are you getting you back up because I talked about taking a girl on a simple picnic? This is my issue. It's the "me, me, me" mentality. I can't even mention taking a girl on a picinic without you feeling freaked out or that I'm saying women shouldn't do things for their men. You can't even say "yeah you know what, a picnic is a nice idea". You automatically feel like someone is taking something from you by a mere suggestion that you take a girl out on a picnic. Geez.

 

I will find a girl who agrees with my viewpoint. Does not mean I have to stop stating the truth about how one sided entitled romance is. Id have no issue being the most romantic dude in the history of romance...but screw that if its one sided.

 

Then you do have an issue with being a romantic dude. If you really wanted to be a romantic dude, you would be. But you are too worried about you getting yours first.

 

I am not arguing that you aren't allowed to want the type of woman you do. There are many women out there like that. I just am sick of hearing women get called names and put down as "princesses" and "golddiggers" because their views of dating are old fashinioned.

 

I just treat people how they treat me. Its simple.

 

I understand that. You approach your relationships from the idea of "what do I get *first* before I give anything". You approach them from, " I will only give x if she gives first".

 

The fact that I state the factual differences in American and European dating is very telling in the fact that the USA is still stuck holding onto archaic dating norms. We havent moved forward with the rest of the Western world.

 

Who says it's archaic? Who says your type of dating is a step further? Sounds like a step back because to me, it sounds like men are becoming even more selfish and greedy and less willing to open themselves up to relationships and consider their partner and her needs over his own.

 

You can cry and call my criticism shaming all you want. It doesnt change this fact.

 

The fact that you use the word "cry", is also an attempt at "shaming" my view points. When you call women names for not behaving the way *you* want them to, you are shaming them. Calling women "princesess" is shaming them. Simple

[zengirl]

Well, it's an interesting catch-22. I have a long standing history of women taking advantage of my generosity.

 

In 2008 I dumped by GF at the mall because she was literally throwing a temper tantrum. I wouldnt buy her this dress... I just sat there dumbfounded for a minute and then said I'm done. I don't think she was like that with other guys. I think I allowed her to treat me like that. My most recent xGF 2010 basically duped me into loaning her money for plastic surgery while she was cheating with another guy.

 

In the end I can't blame these women... I have to blame myself. So... I harden my heart and learn not to trust.

 

Well, you didn't harden your heart too much, if you paid 8K towards your fiance's outstanding loans.

 

Personally, I think the kind of spending you outline here is INSANE. (I can kind of understand it for a fiance, since you'll be married and financially linked likely someday, but even then, odd.) I would never let a man buy my dresses or surgery (well maybe a dress as a Christmas gift or something). That's nutty, and it's not at all related to letting a man pick up a tab for you on an evening you shared together.

 

The kind of women who expect their BFs to pay for their bills, their hairdos, their clothes, etc. . . yes, that IS an odd attitude today. But I don't think that most women who appreciate and are generally treated on early dates to dinner, movies, etc, are thinking about that stuff because it's not at all related. Somebody buying me Thai food is just not the same as someone buying my clothes or other expensive items; I pick up a restaurant tab for friends or whatever all the time, and many other people do too, but it'd be pretty weird if they wanted me to take them shopping.

[Untouchable_Fire]

So you went from one extreme to another. Being taken advantage of by women, and agreeing to pay for, or loan money for, her plastic surgery (new boobs, no doubt ), so you feel the need to go to the extreme in the opposite direction. Well, there is a nice middle ground between being a doormat who is taken advantaged of by women, and being a cheapskate. Neither extreme is a good thing. Women will not respect you if you try to buy their affection. Women will think you're cheap if you nickle and dime them.

 

Yeah, she wanted new boobs. I should have known, because I hate fake ones... but she gave me this junk about how these will be really real looking and if I don't like them she will get them removed... ect.

 

It really isn't going from one extreme to another. You teach people how to treat you... and if you start off with letting them take advantage of you financially it will end that way too.

 

Besides... do you honestly believe that you can tell how generous a man is by whether he pays for your dinner? That's like me trying to claim I can tell a woman's intellect by her bra size.

 

Why is it stupid? A woman is going to have more success with a man that is open and sharing of himself in many regards then one that folds his arms over his chest, stomps his feet, and looks for ways to "get his" while mocking her for wanting to be treated like a woman. And yes, whether you like it or not, being treated like a woman includes certain gentlmenlike behavior from a man that shows her she is special, she isn't "one of the crowd" and that he doesn't just want her for sex. This can include paying for a nice dinner, or taking her on a picnic from a basket he made. Since picnic baskets cost money, this also requires he spends money. Because doing alot of things in this world require spending some amount of money. However, if he doesn't have much, he can take her to the park and buy her and ice cream and spend time with her.

 

I would say Kaylan comes across more as shocked than bitter.

 

I'm honestly going to say that what just makes me face palm every time I see it... is this idea the because a man pays for your dinner he is warm and generous. Do you really believe that?

 

The issue is that your so focused on how this behavior makes you feel... that you are completely blind to it's actual meaning.

 

I agree that cheap dates are a very good solution.

 

* One side note * I've been on enough dates to know that no matter what happens a guy needs to try and get physical as fast as possible. Any guy who likes to go slow will most likely lose, because it comes across as lack of interest or lack of passion.

[soserious1]

Many men have stopped being gentlemen because many women have lost the traits that make us want to be gentlemen.

 

It seams that some women like to pick and choose which areas they want to be equal and turn everything to their benefit.

 

Also women like sex just for it's own sake just like men do. Sometimes sex is the end goal while paying for somebody is usually a means to an end. The sex argument would work if women were not as into casual sex as men are these days. I agree though that if you want casual sex you should be honest from the start.

 

I agree 100% which is why I insist on paying for every date I go on. Also, I don't want a "gentleman" I far prefer guys who admit that they enjoy the degradation and contempt that is displayed towards women in porn.

 

There is something about raw, naked honesty that is refreshing & it creates an energy that makes for MUCH more sexual intensity. I don't want to be taken on some lame hike or picnic, I'm not interested in an emotional connection with you, all I want is a pleasant evening culminating with some great sex. I'm more than happy to pay for dates because it means when the evening is over, it's over we go our separate ways, neither of us having to worry about strings or complications.

Edited January 11, 2012 by soserious1

[Els]

Personally, I think the kind of spending you outline here is INSANE. (I can kind of understand it for a fiance, since you'll be married and financially linked likely someday, but even then, odd.) I would never let a man buy my dresses or surgery (well maybe a dress as a Christmas gift or something). That's nutty, and it's not at all related to letting a man pick up a tab for you on an evening you shared together.

 

I think this is related to the sort of woman the poster is picking, IMO. If you go for the highest-maintenance, hottest girls you can find, much higher chance of them being that way. Not that it excuses their behaviour, but really, it's like Hugh Hefner going for all his Playboy bunnies and then acting shocked when they use him for his money and then dump him.

[Emilia]

I far prefer guys who admit that they enjoy the degradation and contempt that is displayed towards women in porn.

 

There is something about raw, naked honesty that is refreshing & it creates an energy that makes for MUCH more sexual intensity.

 

Wasn't your ex husband that type though? I thought you would avoid men like him

[kaylan]

Kaylan, be the one to carry, birth, and nurse a baby 24/7 for months while hobbling on stitches and tell me that male/female partnerships can ever truly be equal. Going on a few dates to a restaurant isn't much in the grand scheme of things - as time goes on and life evolves naturally, you will find that you cannot ignore ingrained gender differences.

 

The United States is VERY "progressive" in terms of equality, which some Americans simply cannot see. Of course, this "progressiveness" is accelerated in some areas (ridiculous 6 week maternity leave when the rest of the western world has 1-2 years), but terribly behind in others (the cheque at a restaurant? How about a child being born fatherless if unmarried and requiring official DNA in order to get ANY visitation, even if the child has been reared by the man for 10+ years!).

You know what I meant by equal in a relationship.

 

Dont go on a different route to distort my point. I want to be treated just as well as I treat someone else in a relationship.

 

Simple as that

[Woggle]

Wasn't your ex husband that type though? I thought you would avoid men like him

 

It's about the devil you know. I actually have respect for open misandrists who outright admit they hate men instead of tip toeing around the fact that they just plain don't like men very much.

[soserious1]

Wasn't your ex husband that type though? I thought you would avoid men like him

 

Yes he was that type and many,many men are, something they'll freely admit once they realize that you won't punish them by refusing sex if they admit to it.

 

The big differences in my dating now isn't the men, it's my attitude, expectations and boundaries. I don't want to share my money or home with a man, I don't want to have to place a man's needs above my own or have to ask his permission to do things.All I desire are casual, no strings relationships & I'm willing to foot the entire tab to ensure that it stays that way.

[Emilia]

Yes he was that type and many,many men are, something they'll freely admit once they realize that you won't punish them by refusing sex if they admit to it.

 

The big differences in my dating now isn't the men, it's my attitude, expectations and boundaries. I don't want to share my money or home with a man, I don't want to have to place a man's needs above my own or have to ask his permission to do things.All I desire are casual, no strings relationships & I'm willing to foot the entire tab to ensure that it stays that way.

 

Aren't you punishing them though for being that way by withholding affection?

 

It's not a weakness on your part that he treated you that way you know.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I'm honestly going to say that what just makes me face palm every time I see it... is this idea the because a man pays for your dinner he is warm and generous. Do you really believe that?

 

The issue is that your so focused on how this behavior makes you feel... that you are completely blind to it's actual meaning.

 

I agree that cheap dates are a very good solution.

.

 

No, I don't believe that just because a man pays for dinner that it is going to be an entire example of his character. However, it's a good first step. And certainly one that goes beyond a guy who things I'm a"gold digger" because of him paying for a meal. Or a man that withholds his wallet out of fear of me being a "greedy bitch".

 

 

* One side note * I've been on enough dates to know that no matter what happens a guy needs to try and get physical as fast as possible. Any guy who likes to go slow will most likely lose, because it comes across as lack of interest or lack of passion

 

And I have been on enough dates to know that men that try to get you quickly into bed just might not call you every again. So tell me, what's the solution for a woman to avoid being used for sex? Or are we suppose to just spread our legs when a man needs it? You know..after that date where he tallied up how much I owed and how much he owed.

[Woggle]

The best way for a woman to avoid getting used for sex is to reward gentlemen behavior and stop friend zoning any man that acts like one. Make it worthwhile for a man to court a woman.

[xxoo]

I really don't think the problem is going dutch. She offered to split the first bill. She did the right thing!

 

The op wanted to go to a second spot, incurring a second bill, when he didn't have enough money to cover it.

 

How is the woman wrong in this scenario?

[Untouchable_Fire]

Well, you didn't harden your heart too much, if you paid 8K towards your fiance's outstanding loans.

 

In my opinion she has earned every penny I gave her. She helps me put together business presentations, emails... ect. In addition she put a large amount of time into helping me take care of my grandma.

 

Personally, I think the kind of spending you outline here is INSANE. (I can kind of understand it for a fiance, since you'll be married and financially linked likely someday, but even then, odd.) I would never let a man buy my dresses or surgery (well maybe a dress as a Christmas gift or something). That's nutty, and it's not at all related to letting a man pick up a tab for you on an evening you shared together.

The kind of women who expect their BFs to pay for their bills, their hairdos, their clothes, etc. . . yes, that IS an odd attitude today. But I don't think that most women who appreciate and are generally treated on early dates to dinner, movies, etc, are thinking about that stuff because it's not at all related. Somebody buying me Thai food is just not the same as someone buying my clothes or other expensive items; I pick up a restaurant tab for friends or whatever all the time, and many other people do too, but it'd be pretty weird if they wanted me to take them shopping.

 

What is the difference?

 

We could go on a date and I buy her food, or we could go on a date and I could buy her shoes. Provided they were the same price... do you see a difference?