I went dutch at the end. If you were her would you date me again?

[Untouchable_Fire]

Fellatio is the only appropriate course of action, will you not agree?

 

I said Applebees in the example. A kick to the nuts might fit better for that meal.

 

By suggesting going out again, planning the date, and then taking you to Red Lobster for shrimp fest!

Weeeeeeeeee!!!

 

I can't think of a single guy that would complain about that.

 

I've never actually had that happen though. Closest I've come is my fiance who made a fantastic lunch, and we did a day trip to the beach for a 2nd date.

[KathyM]

Who doesnt like to be on the receiving end of generosity? We all do. I know I do. No one doesnt appreciate reaping benefits without even having to earn it.

 

Men arent complaining that they are expected to be generous. In fact most men are naturally generous. In actuality, men are a lot less likely to nickling and diming than women. Any salesperson must know this. The grudge that we men have is at the fact that why the expectation for generosity is one-sided?

I can understand that a man would think it's unfair if he were dating a woman who never paid for anything, and it was always him expected to pay, even though they both have a good income, but what we're talking about in this thread are guys who begrudge paying for even one date when they are the ones that initiated and planned for the date.

[KathyM]

Really? You think so? Read some of the other threads on here about who should pay. There are some highly entitled women running amok They even pop off with crap like "you must not think much of yourself" and "I'm sorry you can't get a quality guy who treats you good" and other BS like that unless you expect a guy to lavish you with an expensive meal and high priced wine on the first date.

Well, that's news to me. I skimmed over the other thread on the subject before, but didn't see a lot of evidence of entitlement, but I suppose there are some women like that.

[KathyM]

Ok, so lets say I ask you out on a date and you accept. We go to a fairly cheap restaurant like Applebees. Not that expensive just like $10-15 per person. I pay for everything.

 

How do you reciprocate?

On our second date, I would suggest we go for a walk along the beach, I would bring a picnic lunch for us that I spent hours planning and preparing, and spent $150 on grocery for. Would that be enough reciprocity for you?

[kaylan]

Fellatio is the only appropriate course of action, will you not agree?

Lmao....fondue to the rescue. Hilarious.

 

Btw your username reminds me of this cartoon show I used to watch on Nickelodeon called Kablaam. The show has this cartoon called Snizz and Fondue.

[Untouchable_Fire]

On our second date, I would suggest we go for a walk along the beach, I would bring a picnic lunch for us that I spent hours planning and preparing, and spent $150 on grocery for. Would that be enough reciprocity for you?

 

That works for me!

 

What if there is no second date?

 

I think what your going to find with a good chunk of the guys here is that second dates are at best a 50-50 deal. Kind of leaves you feeling like you got dine and dashed.

[KathyM]

That works for me!

 

What if there is no second date?

 

I think what your going to find with a good chunk of the guys here is that second dates are at best a 50-50 deal. Kind of leaves you feeling like you got dine and dashed.

I actually posted that before I saw your post saying your fiance did that. I guess some women think alike. I think these guys here would make a good impression if they suggested meeting at a scenic spot for a walk, and then stopping for coffee afterwards, and then he pays for the coffees. Very inexpensive, but enjoyable, and would not give a woman a bad impression.

[denise_xo]

So you think it makes sense to invite someone out as your guest, and then feel resentful that their guest didn't pay for the meal? That's the same as inviting folks to dinner at your house and then feeling resentful that they didn't come early to help you prepare the dinner or chip in 50% for the grocery bill. Same thing, IMO. If you invite someone out or invite them over, it's polite to pick up the tab. What if I invited a guy over to dinner at my house and prepared a nice dinner. Don't you think it would be a bit rude to then ask him to contribute 50% to the grocery bill and leave him to do all the dirty dishes himself, since I made the effort to make the meal? This tit for tat stuff makes no sense to me and is not good manners IMO.

 

When I go on dates, it wouldn't occur to me to conceptualise it as being someone's guest. You spend some time together because you are interested in getting to know each other. I think it's unreasonable that it's always the man who is expected to pick up the tab in that context. It's not 'tit for tat' to wish for a bit more equality in a dating situation which is culturally designed to always put the financial burden on the man.

[denise_xo]

Really? You think so? Read some of the other threads on here about who should pay. There are some highly entitled women running amok They even pop off with crap like "you must not think much of yourself" and "I'm sorry you can't get a quality guy who treats you good" and other BS like that unless you expect a guy to lavish you with an expensive meal and high priced wine on the first date.

 

Agreed. The fact that the OP even felt the need to start this thread is an example of that.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

You avoid men that just want sex by taking control of when YOU are ready to have sex. If you want quick, casual sex--then have it. If you want to save sex until you are in a monogamous relationship, then delay it. If he isn't willing to wait until you are ready, then he clearly isn't the man for you.

!

 

Thanks, but the question was for the guy that said he tries to get sex right away. I'd like to know how *he* thinks a woman should handle herself with the possibility that the guy is only interested in sex. He hasn't yet answered the question but it's his response I'm most interested in considering his perspective.

 

But I don't see men on this thread wanting only to take. I see them wanting to share: share the expenses, share company, share sex. In a way, it is refreshing. But it does require an attitude shift for a woman that associates the man paying with respect. The culture is changing!

 

I have yet to see one example in this thread of men who want to "share" anything of themselves before they know they got "theirs" first.

 

If I conducted my relationships and didn't give anything of myself until he did first and made sure that everything equalled each other, I would be driving myself nuts. That's not about real "sharing".

 

KathyM pointed out a good point. I've had men pay for our first dinner and then I've invited them over to cook for them and the entire cost of our dinner might have been 40-50 bucks while my grocercy bill, to buy the things I wanted to make him (because I wanted to do a nice thing for him), was 100+. But I never complained about that and I bet no man here would complain about that because it's all about what *he* gets out of it and what *he* can take fro ma woman. You don't see me running around here whining about that money or about all the men I cooked dinner for that I didn't end up in a long term relationship with.

 

Culture is always changing. I am more then happy to leave the women that want to pay to the men that don't want to pay. And I am more then happy to be with the men that are more old school in dating and that enjoy engaging in a vast aray of gentlmen-like behaviors. I don't want to be with the kind of man that's keeping a running tally in his head just because he paid for my dinner...all 20 bucks of it.

[kaylan]

I have yet to see one example in this thread of men who want to "share" anything of themselves before they know they got "theirs" first.

 

Really? I think you choose to misinterpret most of what guys like me having been saying.

 

I have no problems sharing myself with someone. I just like to share with someone whos on the same page as I am, is not selfish, and wont hold me to a different standard then what they hold themselves.

 

Its very simple really.

Edited January 13, 2012 by kaylan

[Art_Critic]

That works for me!

 

What if there is no second date?

 

I think what your going to find with a good chunk of the guys here is that second dates are at best a 50-50 deal. Kind of leaves you feeling like you got dine and dashed.

 

UF.. if you think you got dined and dashed because you don't get a second date then you are dating for the wrong reasons...talk about going to dinner with strings attached...

 

It also might be possible that you could use a thicker skin...

 

You put way to much emphasis on who pays and who doesn't and I think you think it works as a filter to remove a certain type of woman from your dating pool but it really doesn't..

Gold diggers could care a less about a 20 dollar meal..

 

I was engaged to a true gold digger when I was in my late 20's and our first date was at her house where she cooked me dinner..

[kaylan]

^Its not about gold digging but entitlement. I dont want someone to hold me to standards they wont hold themselves to.

[Art_Critic]

^Its not about gold digging but entitlement. I dont want someone to hold me to standards they wont hold themselves to.

 

It's about entitlement..

Have you ever thought that your view is also one of entitlement ?

[kaylan]

It's about entitlement..

Have you ever thought that your view is also one of entitlement ?

Lmao dont even try and pull that.

 

How is it entitlement to want to receive the same which I give to a partner?

 

Its far different from selfish entitlement in which one person expects behavior from someone that they themselves wouldnt do.

[zengirl]

Technically, entitlement is thinking you deserve anything. The difference is some entitlements are considered "fair" and some are considered "unfair," though that's the debate, no?

 

I mean, when I work, I feel entitled to a paycheck and a certain rate of pay and benefits from my job, based on my education and background. And I was lucky to find a job who said, "what you want is fair," but plenty of people feel entitled to an income or opportunity, and you can agree or disagree. Dating entitlement is really no different. Some are reasonable, some are not, and there's argument on the specifics sometimes.

 

In my opinion she has earned every penny I gave her. She helps me put together business presentations, emails... ect. In addition she put a large amount of time into helping me take care of my grandma.

 

What is the difference?

 

We could go on a date and I buy her food, or we could go on a date and I could buy her shoes. Provided they were the same price... do you see a difference?

 

I think it's weird to "earn" money from someone you love, really, but those are my values. I'd never pay the hubby or friends or family for helping me out, nor want payment for helping them out in some kind of quid pro quo way. But your values differ from mine. It's nice you are happy with your choices, and I'm not trying to diss them, though. Just saying 8K is a lot of money to give, and you still follow the same patterns. It's just that you are not very trusting and want people to prove themselves to you because you picked the wrong people prior.

 

Making it about the rules and not the people is the problem (from either side, complaining about paying or complaining about someone not paying).

 

As to meal vs. shoes, another poster already said above what I would've said: a meal is a shared experience you invite someone to, there is no long-term gain from it or long-term expenditure. I would personally be uncomfortable with someone buying me something like clothes on an early date because it's clearly buying something FOR me. When you pay for a meal you both share, that's a different story. As I said, it's something I also do all the time.

 

Exactly. That was where the OP went so wrong. His date offered to pay for herself and he countered that they could go somewhere else and she could pay for both of them there. That would have been extremely off-putting to me.

 

I totally agree with Kathy that some of the attitudes displayed by the guys in this thread are excellent ways to ruin a relationship or marriage. I can't imagine being married to a guy who demanded we split everything down the middle or that I repay him for every little thing he does for me. I wouldn't even DATE somebody like that. And I honestly don't believe that these guys will change very much when they are in a relationship or married. They seem to have a fundamental belief that anything they do for somebody else has to be repaid to them in some way or else it's not "worth it" and they were taken advantage of. That attitude doesn't just magically disappear when one enters into a relationship.

 

This is also true enough. The attitude of WORRYING so much about money would put me off. I'm also not just scraping by, nor have I ever been in that position. Even in grad school, I managed pretty well. I did, in college, date a guy who was just scraping by, and I paid for a lot, because I had the money to do so. No worries. He still paid for our first date, as I recall, which doesn't make him a "gentleman" (trust me, he isn't) or great dating material (wasn't really that either, unrelated to money totally), but if he'd been all weird about money that would've made him an auto-no for me. I can't deal with people who are super worried about that stuff, as I'm just not materialistic like that.

 

I think it just comes down to this: men pay because they are culturally expected to pay, and because it is likely to turn against them if they don't. If I were a man, I'd resent it, too. It makes no logical sense, IMO.

 

I don't know, I've met a lot of men who actually LIKE paying. I suppose the cultural expectation is similar to women shaving their legs. Many, many women don't think about it or would say they actually prefer it, but yes, it is technically a cultural expectation and if you have an adverse reaction to it, I suppose that's a bummer. I do not think it's a cultural expectation that men ALWAYS pay, though. I think it's an expectation that American men (and men in several other countries, though it varies) offer to pay and sometimes insist on paying on early dates if they are truly interested in a woman in a serious way. Only early dates, and only the offer, maybe insistence on a first meeting or something, and only when their interest is serious and continued. So, it's a pretty mild expectation. Honestly, I probably spend more money on razors and waxing various body parts hairless a year (eyebrows, legs, bikini, underarms) that most men spend on first dates.

 

And I think it's fine if a woman wants to be hairy or a man doesn't want to pay, though as a deviation from the norm, it's going to limit their options.

[xxoo]

I have yet to see one example in this thread of men who want to "share" anything of themselves before they know they got "theirs" first.

 

They share their time getting to know a new person.

 

Isn't that enough, when you've just met?

 

What is "theirs"?

[denise_xo]

I don't know, I've met a lot of men who actually LIKE paying. I suppose the cultural expectation is similar to women shaving their legs. Many, many women don't think about it or would say they actually prefer it, but yes, it is technically a cultural expectation and if you have an adverse reaction to it, I suppose that's a bummer. I do not think it's a cultural expectation that men ALWAYS pay, though. I think it's an expectation that American men (and men in several other countries, though it varies) offer to pay and sometimes insist on paying on early dates if they are truly interested in a woman in a serious way. Only early dates, and only the offer, maybe insistence on a first meeting or something, and only when their interest is serious and continued. So, it's a pretty mild expectation. Honestly, I probably spend more money on razors and waxing various body parts hairless a year (eyebrows, legs, bikini, underarms) that most men spend on first dates.

 

Yes, I'm sure a lot of men like paying. In general, as human beings we like a lot of the things we are socialised into doing. There's no opposition there for me.

 

To me, how much I spent on hair products or whatever is irrelevant. Whether the expectation on men to pay for the first date is mild or not, I just don't see any point to it personally and as a man it would annoy me.

[kaylan]

Technically, entitlement is thinking you deserve anything. The difference is some entitlements are considered "fair" and some are considered "unfair," though that's the debate, no?

 

I mean, when I work, I feel entitled to a paycheck and a certain rate of pay and benefits from my job, based on my education and background. And I was lucky to find a job who said, "what you want is fair," but plenty of people feel entitled to an income or opportunity, and you can agree or disagree. Dating entitlement is really no different. Some are reasonable, some are not, and there's argument on the specifics sometimes.

Ok, well since you want to be technical then, I will say this.

 

I feel entitled to unselfish behavior in my dating life. This means that the women I seek only expect of me what they are willing to do themselves. And vice versa. Thus a fair entitlement.

 

A selfish entitlement is one in which one person wants the other to behave a certain way, but they themselves wish not to behave that way. Thats unfair. It makes no sense to frown upon someone for not wanting to do something you wouldnt do yourself.

 

Simple. This doesnt need to go on for pages anymore really. Basically one group of people have a fair entitlement, the others have an unfair entitlement.

And I think it's fine if a woman wants to be hairy or a man doesn't want to pay, though as a deviation from the norm, it's going to limit their options.

 

Hasnt limited my options one bit. If someone likes you and is attracted to you, I have found the whole "who pays" fiasco doesnt matter at all. If she wants me, she will want to spend time with me. 'nuff said.

Edited January 13, 2012 by kaylan

[Art_Critic]

On a first date kaylan.. you are pretty high maintenance...

 

It's just different opinions really.. but tell me kaylan, how happy are you about being single ?

[donnamaybe]

Well, that's news to me. I skimmed over the other thread on the subject before, but didn't see a lot of evidence of entitlement, but I suppose there are some women like that.

There were many, MANY posts just like that which were most likely removed because they were very insulting to specific posters who didn't have an attitude of entitlement.

[donnamaybe]

Lmao dont even try and pull that.

 

How is it entitlement to want to receive the same which I give to a partner?

 

Its far different from selfish entitlement in which one person expects behavior from someone that they themselves wouldnt do.

Art has always been a "the man always pays" kinda guy, and that's fine if that's what he wants to do. However, for some reason he is rather insulting to the guys who don't feel that way.

 

There's a difference between not wanting to feel taken advantage of and being a cheap azz. A guy would have to pay for a multitude of first dates if we went on the premise that "the man always pays" because many first dates don't result in a second regardless how much money the man pulled out of his wallet.

 

I noticed in some of those past threads some women stating in no uncertain terms that going out for coffee is not acceptable for a first date; that it MUST be dinner at a nice restaurant and the man has to pay. So there you have it. Entitlement 101.

[zengirl]

Yes, I'm sure a lot of men like paying. In general, as human beings we like a lot of the things we are socialised into doing. There's no opposition there for me.

 

To me, how much I spent on hair products or whatever is irrelevant. Whether the expectation on men to pay for the first date is mild or not, I just don't see any point to it personally and as a man it would annoy me.

 

I don't really think of it in hair products spent vs. dinners gotten either. I was just analyzing it as a socialized idea. I do agree it's socialized. I don't know whether it would annoy me or not because I'm not a man and have not been socialized as one; I do not think it would bother me to be socialized to have a desire to pay for early dates just as it does not bother me to be socialized to believe I should shave my legs, etc. Generally, however you're socialized won't bother you. The people it bothers are essentially where socialization failed. Either they broke out of their socialization for some reason OR they were never socialized along with their peers in the same manner. That's the issue with socialization; it's all about generalizing, and people are individuals. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think socialization is going away and I don't think the pays for dates is a particular problem that's holding back men. It's, to me, on par with the leg shaving one for women; extremely minor, very prevalent, and certainly possible to get around. Perhaps more so than leg shaving, honestly!

 

So, I don't get men who rail against the socialization when the solution is so simple: do what you want to do, and see what compatible options are left. The end.

 

I am not denigrating every man who doesn't pay on a first date (I will say I have an adverse reaction to ANYONE who worries too much about things being quid pro quo because I think calculation isn't loving, whether it's money or anything else, but I respect people and the choices they make as individuals as long as it doesn't come from calculation, fear, or bitterness); I'm just saying the socialization isn't particularly harmful. It's about on par with most socialization: tedious to those who don't buy in, but no real harm done. There is much more harmful socialization out there.

 

Ok, well since you want to be technical then, I will say this.

 

I feel entitled to unselfish behavior in my dating life. This means that the women I seek only expect of me what they are willing to do themselves. And vice versa. Thus a fair entitlement.

 

To you, that's a fair entitlement. "Fair" is a judgement term. To me, expecting calculation --- which yours requires --- would not be a fair entitlement, for instance. I've paid for many a dinner. Probably paid for more dinners in some relationships. But anyone who wants to break things down precisely is acting from a place of selfishness and materialism, IMO. That's just an opinion, though. I don't really care how people date; that's up to them.

 

A selfish entitlement is one in which one person wants the other to behave a certain way, but they themselves wish not to behave that way. Thats unfair. It makes no sense to frown upon someone for not wanting to do something you wouldnt do yourself.

 

So, you don't expect women to shave their legs then, right? Assuming you do not. My whole point with gender socialization is that it IS different, it still exists, and so forth. That's just. . . reality. Whether it's 'fair' or not is a value judgement. Personally, I think equality as sameness is important to a degree---in a legal and professional fashion---but if you are going to expect sameness across genders or even social circles or whatnot, you are going to be disappointed. That's just. . .true. It's not going to happen until the way we socialize people changes, and that'd be generations away, if ever. And probably never.

 

Hasnt limited my options one bit. If someone likes you and is attracted to you, I have found the whole "who pays" fiasco doesnt matter at all. If she wants me, she will want to spend time with me. 'nuff said.

 

Cool, then why be bothered by socialization if it does not affect you?

[Untouchable_Fire]

UF.. if you think you got dined and dashed because you don't get a second date then you are dating for the wrong reasons...talk about going to dinner with strings attached...

It also might be possible that you could use a thicker skin...

You put way to much emphasis on who pays and who doesn't and I think you think it works as a filter to remove a certain type of woman from your dating pool but it really doesn't..

Gold diggers could care a less about a 20 dollar meal..

I was engaged to a true gold digger when I was in my late 20's and our first date was at her house where she cooked me dinner..

 

Personally, I think that if a woman cares that much about a guy paying for her... that attitude going to carry over to many other aspects of her life. I'm not talking about gold diggers... Those type will put up with almost anything to achieve their goals.

 

I think it weeds out many women who are overly selfish, controlling, and have rigid gender expectations.

 

I have some pretty thick skin. I mean earlier in this thread I was called a "dickhead" on multiple occasions and it really doesn't bother me at all.

 

Fact is that I've spent way too much time putting up with crappy women in the past. I'm not going to do it anymore. Kaylan said that women who get that expectant from him instantly get put onto his "hump and dump" list. I don't play that game... it's just dump for me.

 

 

 

I think it's weird to "earn" money from someone you love, really, but those are my values. I'd never pay the hubby or friends or family for helping me out, nor want payment for helping them out in some kind of quid pro quo way. But your values differ from mine. It's nice you are happy with your choices, and I'm not trying to diss them, though. Just saying 8K is a lot of money to give, and you still follow the same patterns. It's just that you are not very trusting and want people to prove themselves to you because you picked the wrong people prior.

 

I tend to be very generous by nature. I like to help out people who are close to me. I've never regretted helping friends and family. I have a friend who I just loaned $2,000 to buy a car. Maybe she will pay me back, maybe she won't. I don't expect it. I'm happy to help her out of a jam.

 

When I'm dating someone it's always just felt like give, give, give and not getting much back in return. Frankly its because of the women I was dating. I don't know why, but in my area there is just a severe lack of quality human beings. Maybe it's a generation of kids from broken homes... maybe my female picker is too random.

 

The woman I'm with right now... is so drastically different. I am consistently in a state of awe.

[denise_xo]

I don't really think of it in hair products spent vs. dinners gotten either. I was just analyzing it as a socialized idea. I do agree it's socialized. I don't know whether it would annoy me or not because I'm not a man and have not been socialized as one; I do not think it would bother me to be socialized to have a desire to pay for early dates just as it does not bother me to be socialized to believe I should shave my legs, etc. Generally, however you're socialized won't bother you. The people it bothers are essentially where socialization failed. Either they broke out of their socialization for some reason OR they were never socialized along with their peers in the same manner. That's the issue with socialization; it's all about generalizing, and people are individuals. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think socialization is going away and I don't think the pays for dates is a particular problem that's holding back men. It's, to me, on par with the leg shaving one for women; extremely minor, very prevalent, and certainly possible to get around. Perhaps more so than leg shaving, honestly!

 

So, I don't get men who rail against the socialization when the solution is so simple: do what you want to do, and see what compatible options are left. The end.

 

I am not denigrating every man who doesn't pay on a first date (I will say I have an adverse reaction to ANYONE who worries too much about things being quid pro quo because I think calculation isn't loving, whether it's money or anything else, but I respect people and the choices they make as individuals as long as it doesn't come from calculation, fear, or bitterness); I'm just saying the socialization isn't particularly harmful. It's about on par with most socialization: tedious to those who don't buy in, but no real harm done. There is much more harmful socialization out there.

 

I realise you compared men paying and leg shaving as socialized ideas, but exactly since socialization is pervasive, I don't really see the point of putting one up against the other.

 

I don't think those who react to socialization are simply 'failures' of socialization. If no one reacted to socialized behaviours, societies would come to a stand still. Human societies evolve all the time, and part of the reason for that is that the ideas we take for granted get questioned or abandoned. Questioning how we live and how we are socialized is a quite important part of life, I think.

 

Whether paying for men is a 'problem' or not - what I read on these threads is that some men are bothered by the expectation, and others aren't. Personally, I think it's a weird and outdated practice in this day and age (just as I think the expectation to shave body hairs is weird, too).

Edited January 13, 2012 by denise_xo
typo