I went dutch at the end. If you were her would you date me again?

[make me believe]

Still, the woman on this thread DID offer to split the bill at the first spot. The date could have ended there, and cost the OP nothing.

 

The OP refused her offer, and suggested a second spot...hoping she would pick up the whole tab at the second spot. She never offered to pay for his dinner, and he should not have expected it.

 

Exactly. That was where the OP went so wrong. His date offered to pay for herself and he countered that they could go somewhere else and she could pay for both of them there. That would have been extremely off-putting to me.

 

I totally agree with Kathy that some of the attitudes displayed by the guys in this thread are excellent ways to ruin a relationship or marriage. I can't imagine being married to a guy who demanded we split everything down the middle or that I repay him for every little thing he does for me. I wouldn't even DATE somebody like that. And I honestly don't believe that these guys will change very much when they are in a relationship or married. They seem to have a fundamental belief that anything they do for somebody else has to be repaid to them in some way or else it's not "worth it" and they were taken advantage of. That attitude doesn't just magically disappear when one enters into a relationship.

[salparadise]

Now that I would not agree with--that you have to try to get physical as quickly as possible. I'd say, most women would take that to mean you are only interested in sex, and not in establishing a relationship, although I do think it's a good idea to make lesser moves for affection, such as kissing, hugging, holding hands, on a first date. But if you go in for the full package on a first date, I think a lot of women will be scared off by that.

 

Interesting perspective.. I think a man needs to show that he's interested in getting physical and that he's not afraid to make the move. That doesn't necessarily mean first date, and certainly doesn't mean he should be pressuring her before she's ready, but being too reserved is worse than being too forward. It can certainly be playful and respectful. Being appropriately assertive is a natural part of being a man just as feigning to be demure is of being a woman. It's the romance dance. Sociology 101. If a guy is not taking cues and making moves, i.e. acting like a man, she'll think he's a schmuck and she'll be all the more receptive to another guy who is willing to get with the program.

 

True, some men want to pay because they think it will entitle them to sex, but I think for the most part, men pay because they want to make a good impression, and/or they think it's their responsibility since they invited the woman out. I think it's a nice, polite gesture, and does indicate a more generous spirit.

 

I think this pay/split/dutch thing is being way over analyzed. If a guy thinks that paying for a date entitles him to sex, then the the woman has found out very quickly, and for free, that he's definitely not a keeper. If he's paying just to make an impression it will certainly be a facade that can't be held up very long and other ego issues will probably be apparent even on the first date. If he feels it's his responsibility/obligation because he asked her out, or because it's gracious and customary then it's a non-issue and allows the date to go smoothly and the courtship to continue. It's social grease, nothing more or less really.

[Woggle]

At least he didn't make you pay for your own lunch.

 

I would paid for my own lunch if he paid me well and didn't make working for him miserable.

[aj22one]

I totally agree with Kathy that some of the attitudes displayed by the guys in this thread are excellent ways to ruin a relationship or marriage. I can't imagine being married to a guy who demanded we split everything down the middle or that I repay him for every little thing he does for me. I wouldn't even DATE somebody like that. And I honestly don't believe that these guys will change very much when they are in a relationship or married. They seem to have a fundamental belief that anything they do for somebody else has to be repaid to them in some way or else it's not "worth it" and they were taken advantage of. That attitude doesn't just magically disappear when one enters into a relationship.

 

It seems that you don't truly understand the concerns of the men posting in this thread. Men are resentful that they are expected to pay as a handicap for being a man. Women today have jobs that make as much as (sometimes more than) a man, and men are expected to look nice on dates ever bit as much as women are. Now, if it's truly about generosity, then at least have the courtesy to admit that men are the more "generous" gender. Or, conversely recognize this idea of a man having to pay as being somewhat outdated and optional.

[donnamaybe]

It's just one indicator, and on a first date, you don't have a whole lot else to go by at that point, since you don't really know the person well enough.

Exactly, which is why a woman shouldn't use that as an excuse to dump a guy either after the first date. Like I said, it's easy to buy a dinner as long as you have the money, so why should that impress anyone?

 

Now granted, if some guy says he wants to "take you out for dinner" then proceeds to go to a VERY expensive restaurant that is outside of your means and THEN expects you to pay your share without it being discussed up front, that's a dick move. I'd rather just go somewhere we can both afford, or just go for something less expensive. Dinner on a first date is kind of awkward anyway, IMO. I'd much rather just do something more low key and impersonal. A walk together, coffee and conversation, etc.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

“Untouchable_Fire

Again... the problem is that your making assumptions regarding a guys motives. More likely the guy who IS paying for you thinks you are greedy and a gold digger compared to the guy who doesn't pay for you.

 

The guy who pays for you... more than likely does it because he thinks you are entitled and materialistic, and this is the easiest way to get in your pants. Because to those guys all women are prostitutes to some degree.

 

Vs. The guy who believes you are independent, strong, and respects women in general. The guy who wants to create an equal loving partnership, where the burdens are shared.

 

You have a laser focus on getting what you want right now, without really evaluating the actual motives. Don't just assume. The fact is that if a guy pays or splits the check... it really says Zero about him.”

 

Untouchable Fire, I am not some 18 year old girl that’s new to dating. I’ve been dating for a while now and I have experienced many type of men within dating. While paying isn’t the end sum of the game, it is a facet of dating that will be a commentary on what a man is willing to share and what he isn’t. If he can’t be bothered to spend 10-15 dollars on you, he’s not going to be bothered to give you much of anything without getting “his” first. I’d sooner avoid such men that hold that kind of mentality. It is totally true that some men that pay only do so out of obligation. If you stick around these men long enough, this mentality will eventually show itself. Either through the paying or through other ways. I know because I have dated such men. And eventually their bitterness and selfishness seeped through.

 

But then there are men that are confident in themselves and don’t seeing paying for a woman as this big huge tribulation. Some men even enjoy it. And I’ve dated those men as well. It’s like blow jobs. No man wants his partner to give him oral sex out of obligation. The more frustration she shows for having to provide oral sex, the more distaste she shows for it, she’s going to turn off her prospective partner. Whether you are giving money, time, kindness, respect or a sexual act, what it comes down what your willing to give and what your not willing to give. And when a man can’t be bothered to pay for a dinner, that in most cases isn’t going to make him go bankrupt, then he is telling me a clear story about what he is willing to share with me and what he isn’t willing. and it’s up to me to determine if I’m okay with that or if I’m not. And I’m not. Because a relationship is about a give and take. And that stretches from money to affection to religion and everything inbetween. In my personal experience, men that were so focused on not paying, had very little to do with wanting to treat their partners like equals and had more to do with his own selfish mentality. Him not paying wasn’t a commentary on his “feminist” spirit.

 

“I would prefer it if women always took things slowly. That age old solution solves a heck of a lot of problems.

 

When I was dating, I can definitely say there is a perception among women today that unless the guy tries to get sex right way... he is either gay or not that into her. So in order to avoid getting nixed right away... you have to be very aggressive.

 

I had a date where she invited me back to her place at the end of the night and I declined. We had a second date all lined up before that, but afterwards she never responded to me again.”

 

Funny that among my friends alot of women complain about how men pressure them for sex without wanting to put anything into getting to know them.

 

How do you know that your “decline” to come back to her place was the reason she never responded to you again?

 

If you really wanted to take things slow, you would. Just like you really don’t want to pay for women, so you don’t. But you are more worried about getting yours then you are an even playing field.

 

I ask you again because you never really answered me. How is woman suppose to avoid men that just want sex when there are men like you pushing for sex as soon as possible that also want relationships? How do you even know early on that you want a relationship before pushign for sex? Or you don't. You just want to get the sex then worry about the details later? Maybe you are interested in her for more then sex, but in the early stages of dating, she doesn’t really know that. So what should women do? Just sleep with you and pray for the best? You know..after that date we had where you made sure to split the bill. Geez. It’s like men today don’t want to be expected to give anything and just want to “take, take take”. This is why I am giving up on men lately. Cut us women some slack and take a look at yourselves and how you stack things up against women sometimes.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Are you daft?

 

 

Kaylan, I would have taken the time to respond to your post but your entire response was filled with nasty question, phrases and put downs toward me. It has stopped being a discussion and has become and oppurtunity for you to berate me.

 

And for that, I can't give your opinions much respect.

 

Learn the art of disagreeing without berating others and you might find yourself having better discussions.

[Els]

It seems that you don't truly understand the concerns of the men posting in this thread. Men are resentful that they are expected to pay as a handicap for being a man.

 

I don't think they are getting the point either. Nobody can make you do what you don't want to. Seriously. Listening to them is like listening to a woman complain that dating is unfair because she is 'expected' to wax her legs and eyebrows and spend 30 minutes a day on makeup as a handicap for being a woman. If you hate it so much, just... don't do it.

[Els]

Again... the problem is that your making assumptions regarding a guys motives. More likely the guy who IS paying for you thinks you are greedy and a gold digger compared to the guy who doesn't pay for you.

 

The guy who pays for you... more than likely does it because he thinks you are entitled and materialistic, and this is the easiest way to get in your pants. Because to those guys all women are prostitutes to some degree.

 

Vs. The guy who believes you are independent, strong, and respects women in general. The guy who wants to create an equal loving partnership, where the burdens are shared.

 

You have a laser focus on getting what you want right now, without really evaluating the actual motives. Don't just assume. The fact is that if a guy pays or splits the check... it really says Zero about him.

 

I agree with the bolded. Still, you need to stop spouting crap about the guys who pay. Many of them do NOT have the sort of ulterior motives you're talking about. Jesus. Assuming that a guy 'does it because he thinks you are entitled and materialistic, and this is the easiest way to get in your pants.' is like assuming that a girl is having sex with you just to get your money. I'm sure there are men and women like that, but you must have lived a sad life if you feel they are in the majority.

[denise_xo]

I think it just comes down to this: men pay because they are culturally expected to pay, and because it is likely to turn against them if they don't. If I were a man, I'd resent it, too. It makes no logical sense, IMO.

[kaylan]

Buying a person dinner does not make you more caring. My former boss would treat us to lunch all the time yet for most part he treated his employees like garbage.

^This.

 

*laughing because girls like me for my personality and chocolate sexiness*

 

:love::love:

[donnamaybe]

I think it just comes down to this: men pay because they are culturally expected to pay, and because it is likely to turn against them if they don't. If I were a man, I'd resent it, too. It makes no logical sense, IMO.

 

Exactly. Those traditions were created back when women stayed home and men "brought home the bacon." News flash: those days were over a looong time ago. I can certainly understand how some gals would prefer a selective mix of the old and new methods.

[denise_xo]

Exactly. Those traditions were created back when women stayed home and men "brought home the bacon." News flash: those days were over a looong time ago. I can certainly understand how some gals would prefer a selective mix of the old and new methods.

 

Yes, exactly. I respect those who opt for a relationship along traditional gender roles, but then you have to be consistent about it - pick and choose doesn't fly.

[xxoo]

I ask you again because you never really answered me. How is woman suppose to avoid men that just want sex when there are men like you pushing for sex as soon as possible that also want relationships? How do you even know early on that you want a relationship before pushign for sex? Or you don't. You just want to get the sex then worry about the details later? Maybe you are interested in her for more then sex, but in the early stages of dating, she doesn’t really know that. So what should women do? Just sleep with you and pray for the best? You know..after that date we had where you made sure to split the bill. Geez. It’s like men today don’t want to be expected to give anything and just want to “take, take take”. This is why I am giving up on men lately. Cut us women some slack and take a look at yourselves and how you stack things up against women sometimes.

 

You avoid men that just want sex by taking control of when YOU are ready to have sex. If you want quick, casual sex--then have it. If you want to save sex until you are in a monogamous relationship, then delay it. If he isn't willing to wait until you are ready, then he clearly isn't the man for you.

 

But I don't see men on this thread wanting only to take. I see them wanting to share: share the expenses, share company, share sex. In a way, it is refreshing. But it does require an attitude shift for a woman that associates the man paying with respect. The culture is changing!

[donnamaybe]

You avoid men that just want sex by taking control of when YOU are ready to have sex. If you want quick, casual sex--then have it. If you want to save sex until you are in a monogamous relationship, then delay it. If he isn't willing to wait until you are ready, then he clearly isn't the man for you.

 

But I don't see men on this thread wanting only to take. I see them wanting to share: share the expenses, share company, share sex. In a way, it is refreshing. But it does require an attitude shift for a woman that associates the man paying with respect. The culture is changing!

Exactly. And besides, how does having dinner purchased for you prior to a man having sex with you and never calling you again make it any better?

[ThaWholigan]

I am not bothered about all the paying stuff. I'm a very broke man, but I wouldn't mind picking up a tab. It's not about expecting anything, I don't expect anything except a good time, sex or not. Lets just say if I am on a date, I'm not going to be thinking about my wallet.

[KathyM]

Exactly, which is why a woman shouldn't use that as an excuse to dump a guy either after the first date. Like I said, it's easy to buy a dinner as long as you have the money, so why should that impress anyone?

 

Now granted, if some guy says he wants to "take you out for dinner" then proceeds to go to a VERY expensive restaurant that is outside of your means and THEN expects you to pay your share without it being discussed up front, that's a dick move. I'd rather just go somewhere we can both afford, or just go for something less expensive. Dinner on a first date is kind of awkward anyway, IMO. I'd much rather just do something more low key and impersonal. A walk together, coffee and conversation, etc.

Doing the inexpensive but enjoyable stuff for a first date is what I've been suggesting on this thread, but if a guy chooses to go to someplace more expensive for a first date, then I think it's polite to foot the bill if he's the one who invited and planned for that more expensive venue.

[KathyM]

I think it just comes down to this: men pay because they are culturally expected to pay, and because it is likely to turn against them if they don't. If I were a man, I'd resent it, too. It makes no logical sense, IMO.

So you think it makes sense to invite someone out as your guest, and then feel resentful that their guest didn't pay for the meal? That's the same as inviting folks to dinner at your house and then feeling resentful that they didn't come early to help you prepare the dinner or chip in 50% for the grocery bill. Same thing, IMO. If you invite someone out or invite them over, it's polite to pick up the tab. What if I invited a guy over to dinner at my house and prepared a nice dinner. Don't you think it would be a bit rude to then ask him to contribute 50% to the grocery bill and leave him to do all the dirty dishes himself, since I made the effort to make the meal? This tit for tat stuff makes no sense to me and is not good manners IMO.

[musemaj11]

Yes, exactly. I respect those who opt for a relationship along traditional gender roles, but then you have to be consistent about it - pick and choose doesn't fly.

Well, actually if you want to pick and choose in life, you can. A lot of people do. But that will make you a selfish person.

 

But I don't see men on this thread wanting only to take. I see them wanting to share: share the expenses, share company, share sex. In a way, it is refreshing. But it does require an attitude shift for a woman that associates the man paying with respect. The culture is changing!

In my observation men generally progress faster in accommodating gender roles' changes. Its a lot easier to find a man who thinks that men these days should help their women doing household chores and caring for the kids than to find a woman who thinks that women shouldnt expect men to pay on dates or pick them up on their cars on dates and drive them around.

[KathyM]

Exactly. Those traditions were created back when women stayed home and men "brought home the bacon." News flash: those days were over a looong time ago. I can certainly understand how some gals would prefer a selective mix of the old and new methods.

I'm advocating reciprocity, not being so concerned about getting compensated dollar for dollar, as if a date is some kind of business transaction. Last I read, and that was recently, it's still considered good manners to treat your guest when you invite them out to dinner. And then its polite for them to reciprocate at a later time.

[musemaj11]

I'm advocating reciprocity, not being so concerned about getting compensated dollar for dollar, as if a date is some kind of business transaction. Last I read, and that was recently, it's still considered good manners to treat your guest when you invite them out to dinner. And then its polite for them to reciprocate at a later time.

Dude, dinners like the one you are talking about dont happen everyday. With the advent of online dating, a man can have two dates in a week and that can be financially taxing. I bet you are going to hate your guests too if you have to prepare dinners for them twice a week while knowing that you might never see most of them again let alone having them return the favor!

 

Try to look from the other point of view once in a while. It could help you becoming more considerate toward people.

[donnamaybe]

I'm advocating reciprocity, not being so concerned about getting compensated dollar for dollar, as if a date is some kind of business transaction. Last I read, and that was recently, it's still considered good manners to treat your guest when you invite them out to dinner. And then its polite for them to reciprocate at a later time.

Do you ever take the initiative to invite a guy out to dinner on a first date? Most women won't do it, but then they expect to be treated to an expensive meal "because whoever does the asking should pay." Therein lies the problem. The guy ALWAYS has to pay if they guy is supposed to be the one to initiate the first date. Many first dates never lead to a second, so when does the guy get treated to dinner by the gal?

 

I still say the first date, or even first few, should be low cost, low pressure events.

[KathyM]

I am not bothered about all the paying stuff. I'm a very broke man, but I wouldn't mind picking up a tab. It's not about expecting anything, I don't expect anything except a good time, sex or not. Lets just say if I am on a date, I'm not going to be thinking about my wallet.

Good for you, Wholigan. That's a good attitude to have. A man who is obsessed about his wallet is not a good catch. I've never dated a man who was obsessed with his wallet, but my sisters have. They gave the guy the benefit of the doubt and had a longer term relationship with him. Sure enough, those guys ended up proving their greediness was not confined to a first date. My older sister married one such guy, gave up a wonderful, generous fiance, and married a cheapskate on the rebound, only to find out that first impression was the truth about him. He was cheap and selfish. Whined about every little expense in the household. Begrudged her for asking for any small spending money while she was unemployed and at home taking care of her two small children. My other sister gave a guy a chance who was very "cost conscious" when it came to their dates. She would always reciprocate and buy him dinner, but when he started to practically force feed her junk food right before it was "his turn" to pay for dinner, and then complain about the prices on the menu at the place he ended up choosing, and then telling her how she should spend her money, that was the last straw for her, and he was history. First impressions are important, and if you don't make a good first impression, you're likely to not get a second chance, because, for those who have several options, they'll take the guys who are polite and generous, because that does usually indicate a generous spirit, in more ways than money.

[donnamaybe]

So, yes. Apparently the "first impression" hinges on a man spilling the contents of his wallet.

 

And trust me - I have ALWAYS had many, MANY options.

[Imajerk17]

Thank you donnamaybe and denise_xo for getting it.

 

Kathy, you give good advice, but I disagree with you here. I wouldn't say that the woman I am on a first date with is my "guest" as you define it. Sorry but I would not. I AM extending an invitation to her, but that invitation is for us to SHARE. If I find out that she has a boyfriend, emotionally unavailable, or whatnot, then I am canceling our scheduled first date. If she is unavailable to me, then she can't share what I want her to share, so what is the point?

 

I don't believe in balancing things down to the penny. I have no problem in treating someone who is clearly into me too. But spending money on a stranger in the hopes that she might like me.... nuh-huh.

 

Men pay not because we are generous, but because it is expected of us and we don't want to rock the boat. Many women don't offer to chip in, and there's really no smooth way to say that we expect you to pay your share. So we just pay. That might be our fault for not being more assertive though. Maybe we ought to rock the boat and see what happens. Meanwhile, making the first date inexpensive is what we have to do for the time being.

 

I chuckle as much as anyone at the Bitter Boys and the Lovable Losers, but you know, I do see where they are coming from. It does seem that women nowadays want to have it both ways when it comes to men. It would be nice if more women thought about how things feel from the man's perspective more.