Imajerk17 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Good for you, Wholigan. That's a good attitude to have. A man who is obsessed about his wallet is not a good catch. I've never dated a man who was obsessed with his wallet, but my sisters have. They gave the guy the benefit of the doubt and had a longer term relationship with him. Sure enough, those guys ended up proving their greediness was not confined to a first date. My older sister married one such guy, ***gave up a wonderful, generous fiance***, and married a cheapskate on the rebound, only to find out that first impression was the truth about him. He was cheap and selfish. Whined about every little expense in the household. Begrudged her for asking for any small spending money while she was unemployed and at home taking care of her two small children. My other sister gave a guy a chance who was very "cost conscious" when it came to their dates. She would always reciprocate and buy him dinner, but when he started to practically force feed her junk food right before it was "his turn" to pay for dinner, and then complain about the prices on the menu at the place he ended up choosing, and then telling her how she should spend her money, that was the last straw for her, and he was history. First impressions are important, and if you don't make a good first impression, you're likely to not get a second chance, because, for those who have several options, they'll take the guys who are polite and generous, because that does usually indicate a generous spirit, in more ways than money. Wow. Maybe we should be more cheap after all. Your sister's "wonderful generous" fiance got dumped for the cheapskate. That's what paying got HIM... Edited January 12, 2012 by Imajerk17 Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Dude, dinners like the one you are talking about dont happen everyday. With the advent of online dating, a man can have two dates in a week and that can be financially taxing. I bet you are going to hate your guests too if you have to prepare dinners for them twice a week while knowing that you might never see most of them again let alone having them return the favor! Try to look from the other point of view once in a while. It could help you becoming more considerate toward people. I'm suggesting the first date be something inexpensive, but if the guy opts for choosing something more expensive, then that should be on him to pay for. I think most men do opt for the less expensive dates for the first date, rather than something more expensive. If I invited the guy out on a first date, I would be paying for it, and it wouldn't be something expensive, since I wouldn't know if he was dating material until I met him. Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Wow. Maybe we should be more cheap after all. Your sister's "wonderful generous" fiance got dumped for the cheapskate. That's what paying got HIM... She regrets that decision very much of letting that nice fiance go. She wishes very much she had made a different decision. But the fiance did end up marrying a wonderful woman, they are very happy together, and have had a long marriage. He was a gem, and my sister regrets letting him go. Nicest guy you'd ever meet, but she wasn't physically attracted enough to him. She realizes now, after divorcing the jerk that she did end up marrying, that kindness and generousity of spirit is far more important. Link to post Share on other sites
musemaj11 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Wow. Maybe we should be more cheap after all. Your sister's "wonderful generous" fiance got dumped for the cheapskate. That's what paying got HIM... The generous fiance was probably fat, bald and ugly so he tried to compensate that with his financial generosity while the woman preferred a sexy handsome guy. Not uncommon. Link to post Share on other sites
Imajerk17 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 She regrets that decision very much of letting that nice fiance go. She wishes very much she had made a different decision. But the fiance did end up marrying a wonderful woman, they are very happy together, and have had a long marriage. He was a gem, and my sister regrets letting him go. Nicest guy you'd ever meet, but she wasn't physically attracted enough to him. She realizes now, after divorcing the jerk that she did end up marrying, that kindness and generousity of spirit is far more important. Actions speak louder than words. Your sisters--both of them!--gave the cheap guys a chance. That you and your older sister think so highly of her ex-fiance and think so poorly of the cheapskate she ended up getting involved with, doesn't do him a lick of good. I am happy for the ex-fiance that he is now married to someone wonderful. It would not surprise me though, if he handled things a little differently with his now-wife than he did with your sister. Sorry Kathy, but with the examples you gave, you walked right into this one. Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Do you ever take the initiative to invite a guy out to dinner on a first date? Most women won't do it, but then they expect to be treated to an expensive meal "because whoever does the asking should pay." Therein lies the problem. The guy ALWAYS has to pay if they guy is supposed to be the one to initiate the first date. Many first dates never lead to a second, so when does the guy get treated to dinner by the gal? I still say the first date, or even first few, should be low cost, low pressure events. I agree with you, low cost, low pressure, is the way to go for the first date. I don't think most women expect an expensive meal for a first date. I think the coffee date or other inexpensive place is what people are mostly doing. Link to post Share on other sites
Untouchable_Fire Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Good for you, Wholigan. That's a good attitude to have. A man who is obsessed about his wallet is not a good catch. I've never dated a man who was obsessed with his wallet, but my sisters have. They gave the guy the benefit of the doubt and had a longer term relationship with him. Sure enough, those guys ended up proving their greediness was not confined to a first date. First impressions are important, and if you don't make a good first impression, you're likely to not get a second chance, because, for those who have several options, they'll take the guys who are polite and generous, because that does usually indicate a generous spirit, in more ways than money. That goes both ways. I've dated enough women who were obsessed with guys acting "gentlemanly" and paying for them. It's generally a bad experience. Personally, I don't think the inviter pays the invitee in the instance of a date. I believe that rule applies only in very limited set of circumstances regarding intimate friends and family. In nearly every other case I can think of, when you invite someone they are expected to pay for themselves. Nobody likes a freeloader or a bum and especially a freeloader that is overly expectant. If you want to invoke the right of guests in terms of etiquette you must show some form of reciprocity. Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 So, yes. Apparently the "first impression" hinges on a man spilling the contents of his wallet. And trust me - I have ALWAYS had many, MANY options. Well, I don't know where you got that idea from my posts. I've always suggested the first date be to someplace inexpensive or even free. But if a guy opts for choosing to go someplace expensive, he should be prepared to pay for it if he invited her and he chose the expensive place. If he can't afford it, or doesn't want to spend the money, then he shouldn't be planning that kind of venue. Link to post Share on other sites
musemaj11 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I'm suggesting the first date be something inexpensive, but if the guy opts for choosing something more expensive, then that should be on him to pay for. I think most men do opt for the less expensive dates for the first date, rather than something more expensive. Most women see where a man taking them as how much he values her. I have never had a woman suggesting an inexpensive first date. Most of the times they won't give a suggestion and left it up to me as if they wanted to see where I would take them so I was left guessing and felt pressured to opt for a more expensive place. If I invited the guy out on a first date, I would be paying for it, and it wouldn't be something expensive, since I wouldn't know if he was dating material until I met him. And how many times have you done that? Twice in your lifetime? Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 That goes both ways. I've dated enough women who were obsessed with guys acting "gentlemanly" and paying for them. It's generally a bad experience. Well, I've always been a frugal date when I was in the dating game, and never expected to have a lot of money spent. My dates usually were to places that cost nothing or very little. But I did always expect a guy to act gentlemanly, and I'm glad I didn't settle for less. I'm still married to a gentlemanly guy who still holds the door open for me, offers his arm when we are walking out somewhere, and doesn't obsess about money. I'm glad I didn't settle. He thinks he got a pretty good deal with marrying me as well. I'm not high maintenance. Personally, I don't think the inviter pays the invitee in the instance of a date. I believe that rule applies only in very limited set of circumstances regarding intimate friends and family. It usually applies to a date as well. In nearly every other case I can think of, when you invite someone they are expected to pay for themselves. Nobody likes a freeloader or a bum and especially a freeloader that is overly expectant. If you want to invoke the right of guests in terms of etiquette you must show some form of reciprocity. People normally do reciprocate. I reciprocate for people who have invited me out. Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Thank you donnamaybe and denise_xo for getting it. Kathy, you give good advice, but I disagree with you here. I wouldn't say that the woman I am on a first date with is my "guest" as you define it. Sorry but I would not. I AM extending an invitation to her, but that invitation is for us to SHARE. If I find out that she has a boyfriend, emotionally unavailable, or whatnot, then I am canceling our scheduled first date. If she is unavailable to me, then she can't share what I want her to share, so what is the point? I don't believe in balancing things down to the penny. I have no problem in treating someone who is clearly into me too. But spending money on a stranger in the hopes that she might like me.... nuh-huh. Men pay not because we are generous, but because it is expected of us and we don't want to rock the boat. Many women don't offer to chip in, and there's really no smooth way to say that we expect you to pay your share. So we just pay. That might be our fault for not being more assertive though. Maybe we ought to rock the boat and see what happens. Meanwhile, making the first date inexpensive is what we have to do for the time being. I chuckle as much as anyone at the Bitter Boys and the Lovable Losers, but you know, I do see where they are coming from. It does seem that women nowadays want to have it both ways when it comes to men. It would be nice if more women thought about how things feel from the man's perspective more. Most people nowdays opt for the inexpensive date. That is what works best for first dates. If you do that, you won't have the problem of what the woman will think if you don't pay for the date that you have planned. Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 So you think it makes sense to invite someone out as your guest, and then feel resentful that their guest didn't pay for the meal? That's the same as inviting folks to dinner at your house and then feeling resentful that they didn't come early to help you prepare the dinner or chip in 50% for the grocery bill. Same thing, IMO. If you invite someone out or invite them over, it's polite to pick up the tab. What if I invited a guy over to dinner at my house and prepared a nice dinner. Don't you think it would be a bit rude to then ask him to contribute 50% to the grocery bill and leave him to do all the dirty dishes himself, since I made the effort to make the meal? This tit for tat stuff makes no sense to me and is not good manners IMO. When I am invited to dinner at someone's house, I ask "can I bring anything?" Often I bring the dessert. I always bring a bottle of wine, or flowers if wine is inappropriate. I never come empty-handed! Continuing the analogy, should the guest invited to a restaurant feel comfortable contributing nothing? Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 The generous fiance was probably fat, bald and ugly so he tried to compensate that with his financial generosity while the woman preferred a sexy handsome guy. Not uncommon. Actually, no, the fiance was tall, slender, average looking guy with a full head of hair, intelligent, sociable, etc., etc., who had an all around generous spirit--not just with money. He treated her extremely well in every way, but he wasn't a good enough kisser for her. A little on the dorky side. But a great guy who she wishes very much she had stayed with. My sister only married the other guy after panicking that her X fiance moved out of state and married someone else after she broke up with him. But he ended up with a wonderful woman who did appreciate him, and he was the winner in the end. I'm sure she appreciated his generosity of spirit as well. My other sister, on the other hand, is about to marry a kind, generous, wonderful, attractive, caring man who is a good kisser. He, btw, always insisted on paying for their dates, and not because he feels obligated, but because he is a generous man in every way. The generous ones do get the girl. Meanwhile, the cheapskates are alone and bitter. I'm just saying, women appreciate a generous man who doesn't nickle and dime them, and who treats them well and doesn't begrudge paying for taking them out. Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 When I am invited to dinner at someone's house, I ask "can I bring anything?" Often I bring the dessert. I always bring a bottle of wine, or flowers if wine is inappropriate. I never come empty-handed! Continuing the analogy, should the guest invited to a restaurant feel comfortable contributing nothing? I always bring a token gift too if invited over for dinner to someone's house, such as wine or flowers. If it's to a restaurant, the host usually pays, and then we reciprocate by inviting them out to dinner next time. Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Actions speak louder than words. Your sisters--both of them!--gave the cheap guys a chance. That you and your older sister think so highly of her ex-fiance and think so poorly of the cheapskate she ended up getting involved with, doesn't do him a lick of good. I am happy for the ex-fiance that he is now married to someone wonderful. It would not surprise me though, if he handled things a little differently with his now-wife than he did with your sister. Sorry Kathy, but with the examples you gave, you walked right into this one. I doubt he changed who he is for his now wife. He's not that calculating. He's a very genuine guy. A very nice guy. We still keep in contact with him sometimes. He's now a family friend. Link to post Share on other sites
Woggle Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I think the big issue with this is how some women seem to want it both ways. They scream about their right not to be traditional but want a man to play all his traditional roles. I have nothing against people who prefer tradition but it should not be one sided. Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Most women see where a man taking them as how much he values her. I have never had a woman suggesting an inexpensive first date. Most of the times they won't give a suggestion and left it up to me as if they wanted to see where I would take them so I was left guessing and felt pressured to opt for a more expensive place. I don't agree with your first sentence. I think most women nowdays expect the first date to be someplace that doesn't cost much. If a guy feels compelled to opt for an expensive place, then that's on him. I know several people who are or have recently been in the dating game, and their first dates have usually been to someplace inexpensive. In fact, the only guy (and I hear every detail from my sisters, friends, etc.) that opted for an expensive dinner date as a first date was a guy who was trying to overcompensate and trying to buy the woman's affections. And how many times have you done that? Twice in your lifetime? I haven't been in the dating game myself for a while, but I hear all the time about my sister's escapades who has been. She reciprocates on later dates. She prefers inexpensive first dates. She pays if she makes the plans for the date. I think she has it right on this. Link to post Share on other sites
musemaj11 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I'm just saying, women appreciate a generous man who doesn't nickle and dime them, and who treats them well and doesn't begrudge paying for taking them out. Who doesnt like to be on the receiving end of generosity? We all do. I know I do. No one doesnt appreciate reaping benefits without even having to earn it. Men arent complaining that they are expected to be generous. In fact most men are naturally generous. In actuality, men are a lot less likely to nickling and diming than women. Any salesperson must know this. The grudge that we men have is at the fact that why the expectation for generosity is one-sided? Edited January 12, 2012 by musemaj11 Link to post Share on other sites
musemaj11 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 When I am invited to dinner at someone's house, I ask "can I bring anything?" Often I bring the dessert. I always bring a bottle of wine, or flowers if wine is inappropriate. I never come empty-handed! Continuing the analogy, should the guest invited to a restaurant feel comfortable contributing nothing? Exactly. Well-mannered people are always considerate of others. I dont come to a dinner invitation without at least bringing something. I never even went somewhere getting a ride from a friend or someone without getting that person something for the gas be it money, snacks, drinks, whatever. Personally I dont do dutch on a date. Its far too unromantic for my romantic self. But I need to feel some sort of financial reciprocity from my date in order for me to feel that she appreciates me and wants to impress me as much as I appreciate her and want to impress her. Its not about money. Its about feeling of appreciation. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 I don't think most women expect an expensive meal for a first date. I think the coffee date or other inexpensive place is what people are mostly doing. Really? You think so? Read some of the other threads on here about who should pay. There are some highly entitled women running amok They even pop off with crap like "you must not think much of yourself" and "I'm sorry you can't get a quality guy who treats you good" and other BS like that unless you expect a guy to lavish you with an expensive meal and high priced wine on the first date. Link to post Share on other sites
soserious1 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Why is it so difficult for so many women to smile at a man,invite him to share a cup of coffee or a bite of lunch & pick up the bill? Why is this task so difficult? Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Why is it so difficult for so many women to smile at a man,invite him to share a cup of coffee or a bite of lunch & pick up the bill? Why is this task so difficult? Because then their tiara won't have gotten the proper polishing they think it deserves. Link to post Share on other sites
Untouchable_Fire Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 People normally do reciprocate. I reciprocate for people who have invited me out. Ok, so lets say I ask you out on a date and you accept. We go to a fairly cheap restaurant like Applebees. Not that expensive just like $10-15 per person. I pay for everything. How do you reciprocate? Link to post Share on other sites
Fondue Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Ok, so lets say I ask you out on a date and you accept. We go to a fairly cheap restaurant like Applebees. Not that expensive just like $10-15 per person. I pay for everything. How do you reciprocate? Fellatio is the only appropriate course of action, will you not agree? Link to post Share on other sites
snug.bunny Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ok, so lets say I ask you out on a date and you accept. We go to a fairly cheap restaurant like Applebees. Not that expensive just like $10-15 per person. I pay for everything. How do you reciprocate? By suggesting going out again, planning the date, and then taking you to Red Lobster for shrimp fest! Weeeeeeeeee!!! Link to post Share on other sites
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