I went dutch at the end. If you were her would you date me again?

[kaylan]

SO many bitter young men, so little time.

 

Here's a little 411 for ya Muse. A woman who allows - or even expects - her date to pick up the tab for her $15.99 All-You-Can-Eat Shrimp dinner at Red Lobster does NOT fall under the title of "Gold Digger." I find it hysterical that bitter, angry men are always the FIRST to make this ridiculous accusation.

 

A gold digger is a woman who marries and/or pursues a guy with MONEY. Not some $45,000 a year office grunt, not some $35,000 a year blue collar construction worker, and not even an $85,000 a year Engineer. A true gold digger goes after men who are WELL TO DO and who can give them expensive trips and expensive gifts. I don't think there's a woman on the PLANET who would feel she'd 'scored' big time if you bought her 3 drinks or dinner. Jesus.

 

Here's a cut and pasted description of what an actual gold digger REALLY is from FreeDictionary.com:

 

gold digger - a woman who associates with or marries a rich man in order to get valuables from him through gifts or a divorce settlement

adult female, woman - an adult female person (as opposed to a man); "the woman kept house while the man hunted

 

I laugh my ass off every single time I see all these whiners crying that women are "gold diggers" or "princesses" because alot of them have been raised to believe that a man pays for their lousy $20.00 dinner on a date.

 

When you're all in a high income bracket and some woman comes sniffing around looking diamond jewelry, trips to Europe and new cars, maybe THEN you can cry "gold digger." But until then, at least freakin' be aware of what the term REALLY means. Stop embarrassing yourselves.

Me thinks you fail at reading comprehension. Its not about how much the dinner is. Its about the entitlement some women have and the idea that men are supposed to pay for their company when they are income earning adults as well.

 

If a girls make-or-break with me is based on my paying or us going dutch...then thats not a girl I wanna chill with. She should be worried more so about how we get along.

 

You talk about average salary guys as if they never run into gold diggers or woman trying to use their gender to get special treatment. Its happened to a lot of us. Did you miss my post on the last page of the girl trying to get over on me even though she had money in her purse? She blatantly lied and said she misplaced her cash. Shes the type to play guys too based on the stuff she used to tell me.

 

Just ask around, or look at some threads online. There are guys who make 45k and end up with a pregnant wife who decides she wants to quit her job and be a stay at home mom, but not cut back her spending. Or how about my own brother...fell in love with a girl and blew over 5k in savings on her...when he only makes 30k a year. Hes great at saving money and lives within his means, and this girl totally used him and never cared about him. Sneakers, jewelry, the works. But now hes older and less naive, and knows better.

 

So guys have reason to avoid women who may see us as someone who takes care of all her expenses.

Edited January 9, 2012 by kaylan

[kaylan]

You were impressed because she bought a round??? What sort of women do you hang out with? It's the norm where I live, when I'm out with someone or with friends, we take turn to buy rounds.

We arent talking about being out with friends. My chick friends do that too.

 

We are talking about women who we are on a date with of some sort. Because of the way guys here women talk about spending situations between genders, we are very impressed if a girl treats us to anything when we first meet her.

 

Take this situation. I was out with my buddies and his gal pals several months ago. It was a friendly group outing. Drinking at the bar and what not. At one point, one of the girls who Ive known for a little while asks me to buy her a drink. She was a little tipsy and says "why dont you buy me a drink" I hadnt been flirting with her at all or anything. We were just all chilling. Mind you were all broke college kids too.

 

I say to her "uh sorry, I dont buy girls drinks" Because I dont unless its a girl Ive been seeing. She replies "good luck finding a girlfriend" to which I said "trust me its never been a problem". I was thinking to myself "why the hell should I use money on someone I barely know whom I have no interest in...nice entitlement and attitude though"

 

So you see, attitudes like that is why guys are so impressed when women get us a drink. Because it seems to be a commonplace expectation that guys should buy girls drinks when we go out, and reciprocation isnt thought of. Luckily Ive dated chicks who dont mind to have things be equal.

[Emilia]

We arent talking about being out with friends. My chick friends do that too.

We are talking about women who we are on a date with of some sort. Because of the way guys here women talk about spending situations between genders, we are very impressed if a girl treats us to anything when we first meet her.

 

Take this situation. I was out with my buddies and his gal pals several months ago. It was a friendly group outing. Drinking at the bar and what not. At one point, one of the girls who Ive known for a little while asks me to buy her a drink. She was a little tipsy and says "why dont you buy me a drink" I hadnt been flirting with her at all or anything. We were just all chilling. Mind you were all broke college kids too.

 

I say to her "uh sorry, I dont buy girls drinks" Because I dont unless its a girl Ive been seeing. She replies "good luck finding a girlfriend" to which I said "trust me its never been a problem". I was thinking to myself "why the hell should I use money on someone I barely know whom I have no interest in...nice entitlement and attitude though"

 

So you see, attitudes like that is why guys are so impressed when women get us a drink. Because it seems to be a commonplace expectation that guys should buy girls drinks when we go out, and reciprocation isnt thought of. Luckily Ive dated chicks who dont mind to have things be equal.

 

I know, that's why I said 'when I'm out with someone or with friends' meaning a date or pals.

 

Why would I treat my date (albeit an informal one) worse than my friends?

 

Yes I see girls who expect drinks bought for them by random guys but they are usually really young and are often out on a junior secretary's wage.

 

I think Western girls in general are quite spoilt, usually brought up that way by their fathers. Maybe this is why Eastern European girls are so popular in Western Europe, we don't think the world owes us a certain type of lifestyle.

[Els]

OP, I don't think you did anything wrong by accepting her offer. Your suggestion that she pay was a bit crass, though, I would think poorly of anyone, male or female, who brings up payments on a first date like that. Ew. I'm a student, but I'd rather pay for the guy, even, than say, "Hey, you can cover me for dinner" like you did.

 

 

If you really think women who take issues with men who don't pay for dates are bitches then I'll bet your pretty lonely...

 

Heh, the poster thinks poorly of women who like men to pay for dates, but mentioned in another thread that he thinks cohabitating without marriage is a great idea because your children get to live off state welfare so you don't need to pay for their school and such. Needless to say, I doubt anyone is putting much stock in his opinion about financial ethics.

[vsmini]

SO many bitter young men, so little time.

 

Here's a little 411 for ya Muse. A woman who allows - or even expects - her date to pick up the tab for her $15.99 All-You-Can-Eat Shrimp dinner at Red Lobster does NOT fall under the title of "Gold Digger." I find it hysterical that bitter, angry men are always the FIRST to make this ridiculous accusation.

 

A gold digger is a woman who marries and/or pursues a guy with MONEY. Not some $45,000 a year office grunt, not some $35,000 a year blue collar construction worker, and not even an $85,000 a year Engineer. A true gold digger goes after men who are WELL TO DO and who can give them expensive trips and expensive gifts. I don't think there's a woman on the PLANET who would feel she'd 'scored' big time if you bought her 3 drinks or dinner. Jesus.

 

Here's a cut and pasted description of what an actual gold digger REALLY is from FreeDictionary.com:

 

gold digger - a woman who associates with or marries a rich man in order to get valuables from him through gifts or a divorce settlement

adult female, woman - an adult female person (as opposed to a man); "the woman kept house while the man hunted

 

I laugh my ass off every single time I see all these whiners crying that women are "gold diggers" or "princesses" because alot of them have been raised to believe that a man pays for their lousy $20.00 dinner on a date.

 

When you're all in a high income bracket and some woman comes sniffing around looking diamond jewelry, trips to Europe and new cars, maybe THEN you can cry "gold digger." But until then, at least freakin' be aware of what the term REALLY means. Stop embarrassing yourselves.

 

Could not have said it better myself. Best post I've read in a long time.

[Els]

Being completely honest, I've noticed a particular trend about this forum. The guys who kick up the greatest storm over 'entitled gold-diggers expecting to be treated' (and I don't mean guys who just simply state, "I love a girl who goes dutch", I mean guys who rack up tens or hundreds of posts solely on threads about men vs women paying).. also, as a general rule, tend to be:

 

1) Students or young workers who don't make very much at all to begin with. Certainly not what true gold-diggers aim for.

2) The ones most disheartened about their lack of dating success and women.

3) Not in an LTR

4) The ones complaining the most about anything that can remotely be construed as 'unfair', and believe that women 'have all the power/have the upper hand in dating' etc.

5) The ones who have the most unreasonable 'standards' and ideas about what a woman should look like, and about what it takes to maintain that - mostly due to lack of experience.

 

And in general, the most undesirable male posters around. What's up with that?

 

There seems to be a fairly strong correlation to me, but I don't think it's just the desire to pay equally - I know several great men who like to go dutch, but they just GO DUTCH, they don't spend hours of their time complaining about how unfair life is for men to be 'required to pay'. I think it is the desire to constantly believe that they're the victim, to feel the need to calculate everything such that they must have 50.000000000000% of everything... or more - THAT is the most repulsive, unattractive thing one could ever see. Anything even an iota less, any difference between the genders that disadvantages them in the slightest, is an outrage.

 

Certainly, anything that advantages them is all well and good (cue said requirements for a woman who has the perfect hourglass shape, waist-length hair, perfect features, etc etc, by a man who takes all of 5 minutes to get ready in the morning ).

[monkey00]

Wow ok so this turned into 4 pages when I was sleeping. Anyway for the record, NO the girl did not know I didn't have enough cash to cover both of us. I realized that after we left the restaurant. If I had thought about covering us both and the restaurant accepted credit card, I would have totally used it. Anyway it seemed pretty natural, I had pulled my wallet out after our small chat when the tab was sitting there and she immediately said I'll pay half. She didn't seem offended. Afterwards I showed her a supermarket nearby to get some awesome food she wanted which she did buy. But I'll text her sometime today and see if she's responsive.

 

Also it's 2012. Girls are more mature and probably liberal (or less traditional than the way they used to be) On a date once I went bar hopping with a girl, total she had 4 drinks and I had 5. We split the drinks and I only paid for one of hers. Before the end of the night we were making out and grinding on the dance floor.

 

Maybe the best time to go dutch is the first date or when it's casual. But knowing as a guy if I choose the place, then it's only fair I pay all.

[ditzchic]

Am I the only one that lives by the mantra of whoever does the asking and the planning does the paying? I usually don't do the asking or planning for the first date so I expect the guy to pay but I always bring the fundage with me just in case we really don't hit it off. I'm not in the date just for a free dinner and if I'm never going to see him again, I'm going to pay my half and be on my merry way with no looking back. And if things go great and if we do hit it off and I do plan on seeing him again I offer to leave the tip or pick up cab fare or something small.

 

I agree with what someone said earlier, if you don't have the cash to go on a date and pay the entirety of the tab, you don't go. You never know what's going to go down in the early stages of dating and you don't want to be left out in the cold should something go wrong.

 

While we are on the topic, I would like to add how irritating I find it when a guy asks and plans a big date and then expects you to pay for it. I had this one guy who asked and planned a road trip to a nearby city. At that time I was stretched a little thin for cash and he knew that and I was also apprehensive about going with him at all because we didn't really know each other that well at that point, he practically begged me to go. It was our fourth or fifth date. At the last minute he asked if we could use my car because he was having some kind of issue with his. I had no problem with him asking and me doing the driving but the trip used a whole tank of gas and he didn't even offer to chip in a dime. Then when we got to where we were going it was pretty much a walking around window shopping kind of thing. We decided to do lunch at a farmer's market type place. He didn't pay, he didn't even feign interest in paying for me. Had I know the "date" would have been taking a trip to the city with a practical stranger when I really couldn't afford it, I definitely would have opted out.

 

If I plan a big date, I expect to pay. I once asked a guy to go to a comedy show with me a few hours away. I payed for all the travel expenses, the tickets and the hotel room that we had to get for the night. I didn't ask him for a cent even though he could definitely afford it. That's just how I roll.

[zengirl]

OP, it sounds like the girl has a low interest in you based on her lack of enthusiasm and logging into the dating profile. I'm going to wager she had a low interest in you based on something in the first few minutes of meeting, since she not only offered to pay for drinks but also for dinner. I'd bet she was HAPPY to go dutch because she doesn't plan on going out with you again, and never did. Just the vibe I get from it, and I could totally be wrong FTR.

 

If she doesn't go out with you, I don't think it had anything to do with the money.

 

I agree with those who said, asking someone to pay for dinner or cover you overtly (or any discussions about money on a first date, really!) are rather crass. Ideally, on a date, it's all about both people reaching for the check, though yes, typically, the man pays for early dates. At least in the dating experiences I had---the scene could change, though, and likely will someday. And that's really mainly a U.S. thing; when I dated the Brit, he did pay for early dates, but only because he knew I was an American and thought it would be a thing. And because he was used to dating Korean girls---who expect you to not only pay for them but their friends if they decide to bring them along, so, no, America is not the WORST place for this.

 

But, really, OP, if a girl is into you, you accepting her offer to pay will not be seen as a deterrent to dating you unless she has some major hangups about men and money (which you probably don't want to deal with). You saying, "Hey, you get dinner, I didn't bring enough cash!" is a totally different thing. I think most people -- male or female -- would be turned off by that (the exception being someone else picked the cash-only restaurant and the person totally had NO IDEA and no way of knowing, because they had no say in restaurant pick, that it was cash-only).

[TheBigQuestion]

Being completely honest, I've noticed a particular trend about this forum. The guys who kick up the greatest storm over 'entitled gold-diggers expecting to be treated' (and I don't mean guys who just simply state, "I love a girl who goes dutch", I mean guys who rack up tens or hundreds of posts solely on threads about men vs women paying).. also, as a general rule, tend to be:

 

1) Students or young workers who don't make very much at all to begin with. Certainly not what true gold-diggers aim for.

2) The ones most disheartened about their lack of dating success and women.

3) Not in an LTR

4) The ones complaining the most about anything that can remotely be construed as 'unfair', and believe that women 'have all the power/have the upper hand in dating' etc.

5) The ones who have the most unreasonable 'standards' and ideas about what a woman should look like, and about what it takes to maintain that - mostly due to lack of experience.

 

And in general, the most undesirable male posters around. What's up with that?

 

There seems to be a fairly strong correlation to me, but I don't think it's just the desire to pay equally - I know several great men who like to go dutch, but they just GO DUTCH, they don't spend hours of their time complaining about how unfair life is for men to be 'required to pay'. I think it is the desire to constantly believe that they're the victim, to feel the need to calculate everything such that they must have 50.000000000000% of everything... or more - THAT is the most repulsive, unattractive thing one could ever see. Anything even an iota less, any difference between the genders that disadvantages them in the slightest, is an outrage.

 

Certainly, anything that advantages them is all well and good (cue said requirements for a woman who has the perfect hourglass shape, waist-length hair, perfect features, etc etc, by a man who takes all of 5 minutes to get ready in the morning ).

 

I can't speak for anyone else. However, one of the main reasons this particular topic strikes a chord with me is because I discovered that you don't NEED to follow the social convention of paying for women, doing all the planning, all the asking out, etc, for them to like you and to keep them interested. I posted a thread here a few months ago documenting my experiences and, with few exceptions, I was insulted by most of the female posters on this board despite not saying a single thing that a reasonable person could consider offensive. All I did was say that I fail to understand or find justifiable any custom that requires me to pay for someone I barely know. I repeatedly stated that once you're in a committed relationship, things change. I received all the same accusations that you generalize upon the men who talk about this on a regular basis.

 

The sense of entitlement is real, and just because I've chosen to talk about it on this board on occasion does not make it an obsession of mine. It doesn't mean I feel the need to be a victim. Nor do I think it makes women "golddiggers." I don't demand an even monetary split in all of my romantic relations with women. Implying that it's primarily about the money is a gross misrepresentation. It is about the principle of the matter, which is the sense of entitlement based on nothing other than outdated gender roles. Women can get pretty much any job they want now. Why do they still expect a man to pay? Why do they accept when he insists to cover all the expenses on an early date? Why is a man not a gentleman if he insists on going Dutch? As far as I'm concerned, the answers to all these questions are similar. None of them are justifiable in present-day society. All I do, and continue to do any time this topic comes up, is ask for an explanation as to how this custom is fair or equitable. And 99% of the time, all I do is get shouted down, or I'm told either explicitly or implicitly that I probably have a lot of trouble with women or that I have a victim complex. Neither of which is true. I AM in a long-term relationship, I don't have issues with my dating life, and I don't victimize myself. Just because this particular social convention doesn't apply to me anymore doesn't bar me from having an opinion on it.

 

I talk about it here because so many female posters rail against all sorts of double standards but fail to see a pretty major one because it just so happens to work to the benefit of their gender. This is something that is unfortunately still pervasive in Western society and in many circles is only getting worse. How many men do you know that would go up to a woman at a bar and demand her to buy him a drink? How many men do you know who would get uppity about a woman not paying for him? Probably not many, but both of these are common phenomena among women of all ages. Are these women spoiled, entitled brats? Sure. Are they probably that way in other areas of their life too? Sure. But in this particular scenario, the entitlement is undoubtedly gender-based, and unfortunately, few posters seem to be willing to discuss it for what it actually is.

Edited January 9, 2012 by TheBigQuestion

[Untouchable_Fire]

You're missing my point Kaylan....but that's OK. And obviously our first dates have been different, and that's OK too.

My offers to pay have never been disingenous, regardless of how you've percieved my posts. And I have probably paid more than the guys have because I don't want to owe anyone anything...... But the OP TOLD the girl he didn't have the $ to pay. THAT, my young friend, would be a turn off. And THAT is what I'm talking about.

 

There is a huge difference between not being able to afford a date, and not having the CASH on hand.

 

I can buy a small house with my savings account, but I don't carry that in my wallet. If I go to a restaurant that takes cash only... I'm going to have to walk to an ATM.

 

Which is specifically why this girl would be stupid and bitchy to reject him just for that.

 

Am I the only one that lives by the mantra of whoever does the asking and the planning does the paying? I usually don't do the asking or planning for the first date so I expect the guy to pay but I always bring the fundage with me just in case we really don't hit it off. I'm not in the date just for a free dinner and if I'm never going to see him again, I'm going to pay my half and be on my merry way with no looking back. And if things go great and if we do hit it off and I do plan on seeing him again I offer to leave the tip or pick up cab fare or something small.

 

While we are on the topic, I would like to add how irritating I find it when a guy asks and plans a big date and then expects you to pay for it. I had this one guy who asked and planned a road trip to a nearby city. At that time I was stretched a little thin for cash and he knew that and I was also apprehensive about going with him at all because we didn't really know each other that well at that point, he practically begged me to go. It was our fourth or fifth date. At the last minute he asked if we could use my car because he was having some kind of issue with his. I had no problem with him asking and me doing the driving but the trip used a whole tank of gas and he didn't even offer to chip in a dime. Then when we got to where we were going it was pretty much a walking around window shopping kind of thing. We decided to do lunch at a farmer's market type place. He didn't pay, he didn't even feign interest in paying for me. Had I know the "date" would have been taking a trip to the city with a practical stranger when I really couldn't afford it, I definitely would have opted out.

 

Personally, I believe the "whoever asks pays" theory is a huge cop-out. We all know that 99% of dates are initiated by men... so c'mon, if your eating... put your big girl panties on and pay your own way.

 

Among friends and family, I pay if I ask... and often I pay even if I didn't ask. Dates are different. The idea of paying for a woman's time is demeaning to both of us.

 

In regards to your day trip date... the lack of communication and appreciation is what makes that guy a dick. I've been on several of those... and to be honest they were enough fun I didn't mind paying. I felt the woman I was with was very appreciative, but then I don't date the materialistic types.

[zerovandez]

I would leave the bill floating on the table for a minute or 2 and talk about something other than the bill. Just to give her a test. If she offers to pay she wins a 2nd date, the opposite if she doesn't but I'd pay either way. I think a few bucks is worth figuring out a persons personality if you seriously want to date her. I wouldn't care if I didn't get a 2nd date because I left the bill floating. Most women would say to me, "Oh let me get it" or "Let me pay for at least my part!" My reply? Well, now you owe ME a date! Set something up on the spot or tell her you'll keep in touch. And if they didn't say either? Well....their loss. Onto the next.

 

Flip the script man. It's 2012

[oaks]

Being completely honest, I've noticed a particular trend about this forum. The guys who kick up the greatest storm over 'entitled gold-diggers expecting to be treated' (and I don't mean guys who just simply state, "I love a girl who goes dutch", I mean guys who rack up tens or hundreds of posts solely on threads about men vs women paying).. also, as a general rule, tend to be:

 

 

I agree with your list. I've found another fairly common characteristic - they are often found on my ignore list.

[ditzchic]

 

Personally, I believe the "whoever asks pays" theory is a huge cop-out. We all know that 99% of dates are initiated by men... so c'mon, if your eating... put your big girl panties on and pay your own way.

 

Among friends and family, I pay if I ask... and often I pay even if I didn't ask. Dates are different. The idea of paying for a woman's time is demeaning to both of us.

 

In regards to your day trip date... the lack of communication and appreciation is what makes that guy a dick. I've been on several of those... and to be honest they were enough fun I didn't mind paying. I felt the woman I was with was very appreciative, but then I don't date the materialistic types.

 

This isn't really how it works with me. I do a lot of inititating if I like a guy. I'm a mover and a shaker. I want to do lots of stuff. If I like a guy, I'm asking him to join me. Naturally, I let the guy do the pursuing in the very beginning but once I like and get comfortable with you, I'm keeping you very busy. My last relationship I paid for most of our activities after about a month in. Because they were things I wanted to do and the price of having the guy around was worth it.

[denise_xo]

Yes, I would date you again. I think the whole 'man pays' set up is terribly outdated.

[monkey00]

OP, it sounds like the girl has a low interest in you based on her lack of enthusiasm and logging into the dating profile. I'm going to wager she had a low interest in you based on something in the first few minutes of meeting, since she not only offered to pay for drinks but also for dinner. I'd bet she was HAPPY to go dutch because she doesn't plan on going out with you again, and never did. Just the vibe I get from it, and I could totally be wrong FTR.

 

I don't really know how accurate that is. I'm used to the whole logging into OLD after a date with women. I've had dates that have gone really well or plan a date with a woman and still have them log on. A lot of people use OLD as an ego booster also. The possibility of low interest might be there though because twice I heard her bring up the EX, not in a complaining way but just referring to him in a story. I could have done the same but I avoided bringing up the word EX completely for my end, I have absolutely no reason to discuss my ex. Sounds to me like she still has some baggage issues.

 

 

But, really, OP, if a girl is into you, you accepting her offer to pay will not be seen as a deterrent to dating you unless she has some major hangups about men and money (which you probably don't want to deal with). You saying, "Hey, you get dinner, I didn't bring enough cash!" is a totally different thing. I think most people -- male or female -- would be turned off by that (the exception being someone else picked the cash-only restaurant and the person totally had NO IDEA and no way of knowing, because they had no say in restaurant pick, that it was cash-only).

 

That's positive to hear from you as opposed to everyone else who has been mostly speaking from a negative standpoint. From having conversations with her, it sounded to me like she might be looking for a guy who is high status or has a career he's excelling at. She even asked if I had plans to go back to school. She's going to med school next semester and plans to be a doctor. Her sibling is a professor at universities and her dad is a doctor. And she even asked what my parents do for a living. There were a few times she's bragged about her shiny condo rental. It didn't sound to me like she was too impressed with what I do for a living. I own a condo and I don't have a need to brag or talk about my status/living situation to anyone, friends or dates...my co-workers don't even know I own.

 

But whatever. I just texted her that I had a good time...let's see if she responds.

 

I talk about it here because so many female posters rail against all sorts of double standards but fail to see a pretty major one because it just so happens to work to the benefit of their gender. This is something that is unfortunately still pervasive in Western society and in many circles is only getting worse. How many men do you know that would go up to a woman at a bar and demand her to buy him a drink? How many men do you know who would get uppity about a woman not paying for him? Probably not many, but both of these are common phenomena among women of all ages. Are these women spoiled, entitled brats? Sure. Are they probably that way in other areas of their life too? Sure. But in this particular scenario, the entitlement is undoubtedly gender-based, and unfortunately, few posters seem to be willing to discuss it for what it actually is.

 

It's very much a cultural thing. My friend heard a rumor that some town in Ireland they will pick up guys and buy drinks for them. And in the West Coast US, women will also pick up guys or ask them out...as far as I've heard from friends anyway. I've also dated chinese women who knew how to treat a guy as far as paying for him on dates goes...it may be a little pushy/controlling but they sure do know how to treat a guy!

Edited January 9, 2012 by monkey00

[Untouchable_Fire]

It's not a matter of having a vagina. Inviting someone to dinner subjects you to pay for them. If you invite, you pay...penis or vagina.

Do you invite guests to your house for dinner or a BBQ and charge them at the door? Yes, it's nice if they offer to chip in or bring something, but if you invite, expect to front the bill, and never expect your GUESTS to pay.

 

That is exactly right... even though you got invited to your friends BBQ... only a jerk shows up empty handed. That is the social convention.

 

Dating shouldn't be any different. If you can't pay, be upfront about it. Some ladies are unemployed or students. I understand that and am totally willing to pay for someone who isn't in a position to pay for themselves.

 

This isn't really how it works with me. I do a lot of inititating if I like a guy. I'm a mover and a shaker. I want to do lots of stuff. If I like a guy, I'm asking him to join me. Naturally, I let the guy do the pursuing in the very beginning but once I like and get comfortable with you, I'm keeping you very busy. My last relationship I paid for most of our activities after about a month in. Because they were things I wanted to do and the price of having the guy around was worth it.

 

We are not talking about the 8th date. Actually... I've almost never heard a guy complain about paying for his GF. I think if you did a poll, you would find the vast majority of guys who hate paying 100% for dates are basically talking about the first 3 dates.

 

The guys who love to pay for first dates are often the guys you don't want. 12% of them feel you now OWE them sex, and that if they force sex it's no longer rape... another 25% are traditionalists and will expect your butt to be in the kitchen making sandwiches for the duration of the relationship.

 

If I was female... I would be more nervous about the guy who refused to let me pay for myself, than the guy who splits the check.

[Queen Zenobia]

The problem with saying "whoever does the asking does the paying" is that in our modern Western context men are still expected to do the asking and the pursuing, so it's just a back door way of saying men still have to pay. Which is fine if that's what floats your boat, but I can understand how some would find it off putting.

 

My first date with my fiance was to an economics forum being put on by our university, which was not surprisingly free. We then and got some of the refreshments that were being provided (again free) and went and talked for a while. It was wonderful, and to be honest the best date I've ever been on before or since.

 

There are so many things to worry about when you meet someone new that worrying about who paid is really trivial (unless they acted in some passive aggressive or otherwise off putting way about it). I honestly could care less either way. Paying or not paying would not be a deal breaker or maker for me, to be quite honest.

[Queen Zenobia]

If I was female... I would be more nervous about the guy who refused to let me pay for myself, than the guy who splits the check.

 

Actually, that's kind of true. And I'm surprised no one else has brought that up. I think for every guy who's a "gentleman" about paying, there are at least two guys who think paying for a date equals sex. There are a lot of girls I know who are mindful of guys who pay, making sure they aren't the kind that believe paying for a date has implied obligations.

[Taramere]

My first date with my fiance was to an economics forum being put on by our university, which was not surprisingly free. We then and got some of the refreshments that were being provided (again free) and went and talked for a while. It was wonderful, and to be honest the best date I've ever been on before or since.

 

Something like that sounds like an ideal first date, because there's a focus to it...and the focus is something you're both passionate about.

 

A couple of people have nagged me to do the online dating thing. I'm not overly keen on the notion sitting in bars, cafes or restaurants making conversation with total strangers, but it did occur to me that I could do something like that in conjunction with things I enjoy doing but might not do very often.

 

So for instance, I like whitewater rafting. It's too expensive to do regularly...but I'll splash out every so often. If the guy also liked whitewater rafting then the two of you could arrange for a group of people to go rafting together. That provides the safety element (a group) and means that even if the two of you just don't click, you can still have a fun time out. There's no debate about paying because with an activity like that everybody just pays their share in advance to whoever's organising it...or directly to the WWR people.

 

Or tennis. Albeit, I probably wouldn't provide much of a game to a guy who was a keen tennis player...but something like that could still be fun. And practically cost-free...or totally free if you both already belong to a club that includes tennis facilities. At the end of a few hours doing something outdoorsy and energetic, you're on a natural high and in a happy frame of mind.

 

It just seems, to me, like a more natural way to get to know another person. The whole bar/nightclub environment is fine once you have developed a bit of chemistry with somebody and want to take it to the next level in an environment that's geared towards taking people to the next level....but initially, I think it makes more sense to do some activity that you both enjoy doing. That way it's a social thing rather than some awful "job interview" type affair where there's pressure to click romantically with a complete stranger over a candlelit dinner.

[Dust]

It just seems, to me, like a more natural way to get to know another person. The whole bar/nightclub environment is fine once you have developed a bit of chemistry with somebody and want to take it to the next level in an environment that's geared towards taking people to the next level....but initially, I think it makes more sense to do some activity that you both enjoy doing. That way it's a social thing rather than some awful "job interview" type affair where there's pressure to click romantically with a complete stranger over a candlelit dinner.

 

There is nothing natural about you Taramere you're stunning and any guy will be lucky to have you in his life. I agree internet dating is completely unatural.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Actually, that's kind of true. And I'm surprised no one else has brought that up. I think for every guy who's a "gentleman" about paying, there are at least two guys who think paying for a date equals sex. There are a lot of girls I know who are mindful of guys who pay, making sure they aren't the kind that believe paying for a date has implied obligations.

 

I actually found that in a Canadian research article. They polled age boys, and something like 75% said they happily paid for dates. 12% of those admitted to expecting sex BECAUSE they paid... and felt force or aggressive coercion were acceptable means of getting sex... BECAUSE they paid. Those were just the guys willing to admit to it... chances are the number is actually higher. Also this is Canadian guys... imagine how U.S. guys would fare in this poll.

 

Last I heard 25% of the female population gets raped at some point. Most of that is date rape. I don't think anybody is really telling these girls how guys think. They think if a guy pays it makes them feel special... but many guys look at this totally different.

 

I forget the exact number but it's also worth a mention that nearly all of the guys who wanted an equal split... also wanted a partnership style relationship, and had a much higher overall respect level for women.

 

So... I say this to women in general. "You get what you pay for"

[Taramere]

There is nothing natural about you Taramere you're stunning and any guy will be lucky to have you in his life. I agree internet dating is completely unatural.

 

Thanks Dust. I think! Very nice compliment, except I'm not sure about the "nothing natural about you" bit. No plastic surgery here. Not yet anyway.

 

That unnatural aspect is the bit about internet dating that does put me off. The thing is that a few people I know have done it, and seem to have found it quite good fun....but then if you specify that you're looking for something light/fun in a dating site profile that probably almost invariably gets construed as easy sex.

 

Also, dare I say it....but Loveshack puts me off the online dating idea. At least I can log off from here if other people's dating frustrations rants are getting too much....but if I were out on a date with somebody who was jaded about online dating, there'd be no escape.

 

I might go back to Latin American dance classes or something like that.

[snug.bunny]

I really don't think the dutch thing was that big of a deal...

 

You went online and saw she was her "OLD" account afterwards and now you're feeling a bit insecure that she's still interacting with others. Maybe she's thinking/feeling the same thing as you, since you were on your "OLD" account too.

 

I guess that is the nature of the beast when you "OLD".

 

Some people only focus on one person at a time when they date, others don't. Maybe she was already dating/corresponding with others prior to meeting you. Who knows. You had one date. I would say if she was still actively pursuing and/or being open to other prospects after a month of dating, then cross that bridge when it comes.

[D-Lish]

You can always discern the character of a man when the bill comes to the table on a first date. What he does with regard to the bill could spoil an otherwise good experience.

 

I will always offer to pay half. If I know the chemistry isn't present and don't want to see the man again I will insist on paying half. I make my own money, I'm generous- and when I'm in a relationship with someone, I like to split things down the middle financially.

 

What can make or break a good date for me is when a man opens the bill, calculates my portion of the bill and tells me what I owe. That's just beyond tacky. I've had that happen before and it really does change my perception of the entire date (even if the rest of the date was fine).

 

If you ask a woman out, then ask her outright to split the bill at the end of the date, that's not cool. If I ask a guy out to dinner, I will always grab the bill at the end of the night.

 

The bottom line is- I will offer my share on a date and have no issue splitting things in half. Being told my share? That's a different story.

 

I'm generous with my own wallet, and if I get a sense on a date with a guy that he's tight with his money, it's a turn off.