I went dutch at the end. If you were her would you date me again?

[KathyM]

I agree. It fits the definition of entitled behavior, but nearly everyone feels entitled to something.

 

 

 

Does that match reality? Does it really mean that a guy is generous and values you because he pays? Yes, at least he values you enough to spring for a simple meal.

 

 

 

Why? What kind of guest shows up empty handed? Just because someone invites you doesn't mean you get a free ride. I think etiquette dictates that the one doing the inviting is the one who pays, unless it is set forth in advance that it will be dutch. Even with our friends, when my husband and I invite them out to dinner, we pick up the whole tab. Or when we invite them over for dinner, I prepare the whole meal, I don't ask our guests to bring part of dinner over.

 

 

 

If they each paid for themselves, they could both afford to go to a place where you look down at the menu... and not up. That often provides a better experience. Plus, you don't have any hard feelings if the date doesn't go well.

I would suggest you go for less expensive dates at first. Then you won't have this problem.

 

 

 

That is exactly why I suggest to men that they don't pay. It weeds out superficial women who think like this. The Anna Nicole Smith's of the world have their place for sure, but a guy sincerely looking for love should avoid this type of female thinking.

It's not superficial to expect to be treated if you are invited out. If you are so afraid of being taken advantage of on the first date, then make it an inexpensive date. And just an FYI, my first, second and third long-term boyfriends, including my husband, were all college students with a very limited income from part-time work. I was a full time high school or college student with no job. Most of our dates were inexpensive or cost very little, and that was fine by me. I didn't expect a lot. But if a guy did invite me out somewhere, I expected him to pick up the tab. It's just common courtesy.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Sorry UF, but sometimes I feel like your arguments falls flat. If you're trying to tell guys not to be a sucker, using words like " b!tch" hardly makes your arguments come across as rational or reasonable.

If men do not want to pay, the logical way to go about things is not to go out to dinner.

I remember I once dated a guy who only ever treated me to walks around the city. Great, I like the company, it was the first time I did anything without using money. However, after a while the act gets old.

I wasn't looking to be impressed, I didn't expect to be dined or wined, but he really reminded me of my ex, whom I took care of both physically/emotionally, and financially.

Yes, when I date I give people my time. I want to have fun. And sometimes money is spent. i appreciate the gesture, and I'm more than able to reciprocate in kind. ( I have treated guys to dinner, coffee,etc).

I would never go into dating with the intention of " gold-digging" and i think it's only reasonable guys don't go into dating thinking they're being duped.

If anything, I guess the best way to date would be to date within one's social status. If I'm financially stable, then I expect the guy to be on par.

 

Let's bring this right back to OP. I'm starting to sense a 12 page threadjack here.

 

Monkey00 seems like a nice and genuine guy. He is honest in his approach, and has good intentions.

 

IF his date decides to reject him on the basis that he didn't carry enough cash... In my opinion... that makes her a bitch. He would have gladly paid had the restaurant accepted credit.

[KathyM]

Other than perhaps makeup (which isn't always 100% necessary) I really wouldn't expect a woman to get all fancied up for a date with me. Jeans and a shirt would be fine with me (and I presume she'd already have that outfit so she wouldn't need to buy a new one). That's what I call fair.

Women want to make a good first impression on a date, so a lot of times they do go to a lot of time, trouble and expense to get ready for a first date, even if the date is to some place simple. I'm sure you would be impressed with someone who made a lot of effort in her appearance for the date, because that shows that she values you as well. Would you really be just as impressed by a woman who looked like she just threw her jeans on, ran a comb through her hair, and met you for a first date? I know a guy who was dating women recently who complained how disappointed he was when he showed up for the date and the woman he met wore some basic, plain clothing, very little makeup, and looked like she made no effort whatsoever to impress the guy. He was disappointed. Women usually want to make a good impression, so they often do go to the expense and effort of looking their best on a first date and subsequent dates.

[Woggle]

What is so damn wrong with being cheap? I earned my money so why not be selective with how I spend it? I have been called cheap but I also have my own home paid off and I have zero debt so it sure works for me.

 

I also tend to more freely treat other men than women when I was single because most of the time other guys never acted entitled to my money. When a woman lacked the entitlement complex I gladly treated her.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

What is so damn wrong with being cheap? I earned my money so why not be selective with how I spend it? I have been called cheap but I also have my own home paid off and I have zero debt so it sure works for me.

 

I also tend to more freely treat other men than women when I was single because most of the time other guys never acted entitled to my money. When a woman lacked the entitlement complex I gladly treated her.

 

I think it's great to be good with your money. But being good with your money has little to do with not paying for a dinner or drinks.

[xpaperxcutx]

What is so damn wrong with being cheap? I earned my money so why not be selective with how I spend it? I have been called cheap but I also have my own home paid off and I have zero debt so it sure works for me.

 

I also tend to more freely treat other men than women when I was single because most of the time other guys never acted entitled to my money. When a woman lacked the entitlement complex I gladly treated her.

From your standpoint you think EVERY women feels they're entitled. That's bias.

 

That's like me accusing EVERY men of being chauvinistic.

[Woggle]

I think it's great to be good with your money. But being good with your money has little to do with not paying for a dinner or drinks.

 

True but spending too much on dates can train a man's wallet. For first date it was always going up on the boardwalk and grabbing a bite to eat. I paid for it. If I wanted a nicer place than maybe a decent italian restaurant. No way in hell was I paying for a thousand dollar plate of caviar and a two thousand dollar bottle of wine.

[fortyninethousand322]

What is so damn wrong with being cheap? I earned my money so why not be selective with how I spend it? I have been called cheap but I also have my own home paid off and I have zero debt so it sure works for me.

 

I also tend to more freely treat other men than women when I was single because most of the time other guys never acted entitled to my money. When a woman lacked the entitlement complex I gladly treated her.

 

What ends up happening when women have the attitude displayed in this thread is that men will pay, but only because of what they fear will happen if they don't. Basically I'll pay for a date but only because I don't want the girl to think less of me, not because I'm genuinely wanting to. I guess that's what the women want, to feed resentment.

[fortyninethousand322]

From your standpoint you think EVERY women feels they're entitled. That's bias.

 

That's like me accusing EVERY men of being chauvinistic.

 

Truth on both counts actually.

[xpaperxcutx]

Truth on both counts actually.

Lmao why I never!

[Woggle]

Not every man is a chauvinist but I can't blame women for wanting to avoid becoming a domestic slave. That being said why can't women understand men not wanting to become a financial slave. Why don't we finally embrace true equality in relationships?

[Untouchable_Fire]

It's not superficial to expect to be treated if you are invited out. If you are so afraid of being taken advantage of on the first date, then make it an inexpensive date. And just an FYI, my first, second and third long-term boyfriends, including my husband, were all college students with a very limited income from part-time work. I was a full time high school or college student with no job. Most of our dates were inexpensive or cost very little, and that was fine by me. I didn't expect a lot. But if a guy did invite me out somewhere, I expected him to pick up the tab. It's just common courtesy.

 

Who taught you etiquette? I have a couple that regularly invites me and a few friends over for dinner at their house. Nobody shows up empty handed. I always bring something in the $10-20 range, usually treats for their kids.

 

So... when you get invited to a wedding, or a baby shower, or a birthday party... you don't bring gifts?

 

Just understand that everyone has different traditions... so when you say the person who invites should pay everything... That isn't a set in stone law. In fact it's very unappreciative and rude attitude to have. If someone invites me, but I either can't or am unwilling to pay anything... I will decline the offer politely. That is common courtesy.

[KathyM]

Who taught you etiquette? I have a couple that regularly invites me and a few friends over for dinner at their house. Nobody shows up empty handed. I always bring something in the $10-20 range, usually treats for their kids.

 

So... when you get invited to a wedding, or a baby shower, or a birthday party... you don't bring gifts?

 

Just understand that everyone has different traditions... so when you say the person who invites should pay everything... That isn't a set in stone law. In fact it's very unappreciative and rude attitude to have. If someone invites me, but I either can't or am unwilling to pay anything... I will decline the offer politely. That is common courtesy.

Actually, I've been reading Emily Post, Ann Landers, etc. etc. on the rules of etiquette for years. And I certainly do bring gifts when the occasion calls for it. I was at a party last Saturday night and brought a couple of bottles of wine to the party. But to bring a gift of appreciation or to celebrate an event like a shower is not the same as expecting your guests to bring you a gift. In fact, it is rude to expect your guest to bring something. There are people who actually throw a shower and expect guests to pay towards the cost. That is what is rude. To invite someone out and expect them to pay is rude.

[zengirl]

That's not really what UF was saying though, if you read his original statement about the issue. He basically said if he were a woman he'd be a bit skeptical about a man who insisted on paying as some would feel that it obligates the woman to sleep with them. Or perhaps, it might obligate a second date (or third and so and so forth). A poster on here said he didn't mind paying because "it's just goods he paid for", I think that's the mindset UF was criticizing. And in some respects he has a very good point.

 

No one is saying that paying for dinner equals rape, I don't know how anyone would get that out of the postings on here unless they lacked sufficient reading comprehension skills or they were being deliberately disingenuous with their interpretation.

 

I saw him trying to make a correlation, not a direct one, sure, but I'm familiar with UF's style and the vitriol he believes. My point is there is NO reason to bring date rape statistics into this discussion---it's insensitive, wrong, and a false correlation.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Actually, I've been reading Emily Post, Ann Landers, etc. etc. on the rules of etiquette for years.

 

I don't understand how you are differentiating between events. What line do you draw to say... here I chip in... and here I don't?

 

To me it's all the same thing. No offence to Ms. Post or Landers, who are professionals at this. If I get invited to a birthday party... it's the same as being invited to a football game, or a trip to Vegas.

 

I saw him trying to make a correlation, not a direct one, sure, but I'm familiar with UF's style and the vitriol he believes. My point is there is NO reason to bring date rape statistics into this discussion---it's insensitive, wrong, and a false correlation.

 

QZ is exactly correct on why I brought that up. I used the statistics to show it's a big problem, and the study to show that paying for a date doesn't necessarily mean good things.

 

It wasn't meant to be a correlation. It was meant to make you realize that what a gesture means to YOU isn't always the same thing as what it means to your date. In fact you are selectively choosing a higher percentage of bad intentioned men over a higher percentage over good intentioned ones.

[kaylan]

Women want to make a good first impression on a date, so a lot of times they do go to a lot of time, trouble and expense to get ready for a first date, even if the date is to some place simple. I'm sure you would be impressed with someone who made a lot of effort in her appearance for the date, because that shows that she values you as well. Would you really be just as impressed by a woman who looked like she just threw her jeans on, ran a comb through her hair, and met you for a first date? I know a guy who was dating women recently who complained how disappointed he was when he showed up for the date and the woman he met wore some basic, plain clothing, very little makeup, and looked like she made no effort whatsoever to impress the guy. He was disappointed. Women usually want to make a good impression, so they often do go to the expense and effort of looking their best on a first date and subsequent dates.

And I dont dress to impress and take time to groom myself? Guys take the time to make a good impression too. Trust me, the guy who complains about a girl not dressing up all fancy is VERY rare. Most guys wouldnt give a crap if she dressed in a simple tee shirt with nice jeans and shoes. As long as she looks nice.

 

Simple can be well done. White tee, with blue jeans and nice boots are a classic. Add a peacoat and youre good. Hell throw a simple button down shirt or blouse over the tee shirt and you are even better. Id be SUPER impressed by a girl who could look good in seconds and doesnt take forever to get ready. If she can look awesome in something basic, well thats a girl who knows fashion imo...since most people make basic outfits look crappy.

 

Lets be real. Men buy nice clothes and try to look nice as well. That is not the sole realm of women.

 

Someone dressing nice for a date has NOTHING to do with whos paying. Both people should be trying to look presentable for one another. Im so sick and tired of hearing the tired old reasoning that women put "so much effort" into their appearance that a man should show appreciation by paying for the date. Um...how about I do the likewise thing and show her Im appreciative by looking equally awesome.

 

But then again, lord knows my type isnt the girl who feels she can trade of her appearance for cash. Like I said in a previous post. Any sort of entitlement I sense will have her end up in the friendzone or hookup-only zone. Ive already experienced that even with girls who were rather high maintenance when it comes to boyfriends, but will drop that requirement if they are attracted to the dude and dig him enough.

Edited January 10, 2012 by kaylan

[Disenchantedly Yours]

True but spending too much on dates can train a man's wallet. For first date it was always going up on the boardwalk and grabbing a bite to eat. I paid for it. If I wanted a nicer place than maybe a decent italian restaurant. No way in hell was I paying for a thousand dollar plate of caviar and a two thousand dollar bottle of wine.

 

Good Gracious. I have never ever had a man spend a thousand dollar plate of cavier and a two thousand dollar bottle of wine for me. Even from the men I dated for years. And frankly, I don't know many women that would EVER expect such nonsense.

[make me believe]

I wish guys would stop trying to justify their bad attitudes by saying it's a generational thing. I'm 28 and when I was still dating a few years ago I don't recall a guy ever having the "I'm not paying for this gold digging bitch!" attitude that some of these dudes seem to have.

 

I think if a guy asks a girl out, plans the date, picks the restaurant, etc, he should pay. I usually offered to split the check on a first date, but I can't think of a single time when I was taken up on the offer. I HATE splitting checks in almost any circumstance, though. It always feels so awkward. I prefer to let him get the check sometimes, and other times I'll get it. The only time I would insist on paying for my half is when I knew I wasn't interested in seeing the guy again.

 

If you're sooo worried about spending money on a "stranger" that you've ASKED ON A DATE, then take her somewhere free/cheap for heaven's sake. Go to the park with some coffee or a bottle of wine. But please don't come back here to complain that she didn't offer to pay for her half of the two buck chuck you picked up at Trader Joe's on the way. (Or in Woggles world, the "two thousand dollar bottle of wine" that apparently some women expect )

[Untouchable_Fire]

Lets be real. Men buy nice clothes and try to look nice as well. That is not the sole realm of women.

 

I spend at least 1-2 hours at the gym every day. I spend $60 a month on my haircut. I buy nice new clothes every month. I actually have a $200 budget for it, though sometimes that isn't half enough. I *cough* buy stuff for my skin. ... ect. I put a lot of effort into grooming and hygiene.

 

But then again, lord knows my type isnt the girl who feels she can trade of her appearance for cash. Like I said in a previous post. Any sort of entitlement I sense will have her end up in the friendzone or hookup-only zone. Ive already experienced that even with girls who were rather high maintenance when it comes to boyfriends, but will drop that requirement if they are attracted to the dude and dig him enough.

 

 

Ouch.

 

I think your right. When a guy doesn't pay the women that stick around are the ones who are seriously interested.

 

In my experience women don't go out for free meals, but because the meal is free... they are willing to give a guy a shot despite very low interest levels. When those ladies eventually flake or bounce... it leaves the guys feeling used... even thought it wasn't her intent.

[fortyninethousand322]

In my experience women don't go out for free meals, but because the meal is free... they are willing to give a guy a shot despite very low interest levels. When those ladies eventually flake or bounce... it leaves the guys feeling used... even thought it wasn't her intent.

 

And if that guy were to come on here and complain about it he'd be criticized and women would tell him how paying for a date doesn't guarantee him a second date. Which is true, but it's also why men are cautious.

[veggirl]

And I dont dress to impress and take time to groom myself? Guys take the time to make a good impression too. Trust me, the guy who complains about a girl not dressing up all fancy is VERY rare. Most guys wouldnt give a crap if she dressed in a simple tee shirt with nice jeans and shoes. As long as she looks nice.

 

Simple can be well done. White tee, with blue jeans and nice boots are a classic. Add a peacoat and youre good. Hell throw a simple button down shirt or blouse over the tee shirt and you are even better. Id be SUPER impressed by a girl who could look good in seconds and doesnt take forever to get ready. If she can look awesome in something basic, well thats a girl who knows fashion imo...since most people make basic outfits look crappy.

 

Lets be real. Men buy nice clothes and try to look nice as well. That is not the sole realm of women.

 

Someone dressing nice for a date has NOTHING to do with whos paying. Both people should be trying to look presentable for one another. Im so sick and tired of hearing the tired old reasoning that women put "so much effort" into their appearance that a man should show appreciation by paying for the date. Um...how about I do the likewise thing and show her Im appreciative by looking equally awesome.

 

But then again, lord knows my type isnt the girl who feels she can trade of her appearance for cash. Like I said in a previous post. Any sort of entitlement I sense will have her end up in the friendzone or hookup-only zone. Ive already experienced that even with girls who were rather high maintenance when it comes to boyfriends, but will drop that requirement if they are attracted to the dude and dig him enough.

 

Great point.

 

I am always confused when women pull the "well I have to GET READY AND LOOK NICE!!" card. As though they'd be okay with a guy showing up in sweats or something. LOL. I mean if they don't expect the guy to get ready, then maybe they have a point. but guaranteed they want the man looking just as good as they look. That "justification" kills me.

[Untouchable_Fire]

And if that guy were to come on here and complain about it he'd be criticized and women would tell him how paying for a date doesn't guarantee him a second date. Which is true, but it's also why men are cautious.

 

Well, it's an interesting catch-22. I have a long standing history of women taking advantage of my generosity.

 

In 2008 I dumped by GF at the mall because she was literally throwing a temper tantrum. I wouldnt buy her this dress... I just sat there dumbfounded for a minute and then said I'm done. I don't think she was like that with other guys. I think I allowed her to treat me like that. My most recent xGF 2010 basically duped me into loaning her money for plastic surgery while she was cheating with another guy.

 

In the end I can't blame these women... I have to blame myself. So... I harden my heart and learn not to trust.

[imfromhoiland]

Any updates my man? I'm rooting for you.

[KathyM]

And I dont dress to impress and take time to groom myself? Guys take the time to make a good impression too. Trust me, the guy who complains about a girl not dressing up all fancy is VERY rare. Most guys wouldnt give a crap if she dressed in a simple tee shirt with nice jeans and shoes. As long as she looks nice.

 

Simple can be well done. White tee, with blue jeans and nice boots are a classic. Add a peacoat and youre good. Hell throw a simple button down shirt or blouse over the tee shirt and you are even better. Id be SUPER impressed by a girl who could look good in seconds and doesnt take forever to get ready. If she can look awesome in something basic, well thats a girl who knows fashion imo...since most people make basic outfits look crappy.

 

Lets be real. Men buy nice clothes and try to look nice as well. That is not the sole realm of women.

 

Someone dressing nice for a date has NOTHING to do with whos paying. Both people should be trying to look presentable for one another. Im so sick and tired of hearing the tired old reasoning that women put "so much effort" into their appearance that a man should show appreciation by paying for the date. Um...how about I do the likewise thing and show her Im appreciative by looking equally awesome.

 

But then again, lord knows my type isnt the girl who feels she can trade of her appearance for cash. Like I said in a previous post. Any sort of entitlement I sense will have her end up in the friendzone or hookup-only zone. Ive already experienced that even with girls who were rather high maintenance when it comes to boyfriends, but will drop that requirement if they are attracted to the dude and dig him enough.

I don't consider dating to be this tit for tat kind of thing. I think it's just common courtesy to pick up the tab if you invite someone on a date. I also don't expect dating to be some super expensive thing either. Some of the best dates can be things that don't cost much. I just think it comes off as cheap if a guy suggests splitting the bill when he was the one who invited and planned for the date. That's all I'm saying. There are plenty of men out there who do pay for the date when they are the ones inviting. So that is your competition, gentlemen. If you come across as a cheapskate or a pennypincher, that's usually a red flag for most women. Bottom line.

[KathyM]

I wish guys would stop trying to justify their bad attitudes by saying it's a generational thing. I'm 28 and when I was still dating a few years ago I don't recall a guy ever having the "I'm not paying for this gold digging bitch!" attitude that some of these dudes seem to have.

 

I think if a guy asks a girl out, plans the date, picks the restaurant, etc, he should pay. I usually offered to split the check on a first date, but I can't think of a single time when I was taken up on the offer. I HATE splitting checks in almost any circumstance, though. It always feels so awkward. I prefer to let him get the check sometimes, and other times I'll get it. The only time I would insist on paying for my half is when I knew I wasn't interested in seeing the guy again.

 

If you're sooo worried about spending money on a "stranger" that you've ASKED ON A DATE, then take her somewhere free/cheap for heaven's sake. Go to the park with some coffee or a bottle of wine. But please don't come back here to complain that she didn't offer to pay for her half of the two buck chuck you picked up at Trader Joe's on the way. (Or in Woggles world, the "two thousand dollar bottle of wine" that apparently some women expect )

Good post.