I went dutch at the end. If you were her would you date me again?

[soserious1]

Aren't you punishing them though for being that way by withholding affection?

 

It's not a weakness on your part that he treated you that way you know.

 

I don't withhold basic playfulness or humor in my encounters, I'm just not interested in any sort of exclusive relationship. There's only one name on the mailbox here & that's the way I wish it to stay.

[xxoo]

We could go on a date and I buy her food, or we could go on a date and I could buy her shoes. Provided they were the same price... do you see a difference?

 

The difference is that the meal is a shared experience you are both enjoying.

 

And, she won't be wearing that meal when she goes out with her next bf

[hydorclops]

The difference is that the meal is a shared experience you are both enjoying.

 

And, she won't be wearing that meal when she goes out with her next bf

 

That depends on her metabolism.

[soserious1]

 

And I have been on enough dates to know that men that try to get you quickly into bed just might not call you every again. So tell me, what's the solution for a woman to avoid being used for sex? Or are we suppose to just spread our legs when a man needs it? You know..after that date where he tallied up how much I owed and how much he owed.

 

 

No, how about the solution where women take some responsibility for asking men out, paying for dates and only opening their legs when they wish to enjoy sex?

[Untouchable_Fire]

No, I don't believe that just because a man pays for dinner that it is going to be an entire example of his character. However, it's a good first step. And certainly one that goes beyond a guy who things I'm a"gold digger" because of him paying for a meal. Or a man that withholds his wallet out of fear of me being a "greedy bitch".

 

Again... the problem is that your making assumptions regarding a guys motives. More likely the guy who IS paying for you thinks you are greedy and a gold digger compared to the guy who doesn't pay for you.

 

The guy who pays for you... more than likely does it because he thinks you are entitled and materialistic, and this is the easiest way to get in your pants. Because to those guys all women are prostitutes to some degree.

 

Vs. The guy who believes you are independent, strong, and respects women in general. The guy who wants to create an equal loving partnership, where the burdens are shared.

 

You have a laser focus on getting what you want right now, without really evaluating the actual motives. Don't just assume. The fact is that if a guy pays or splits the check... it really says Zero about him.

 

And I have been on enough dates to know that men that try to get you quickly into bed just might not call you every again. So tell me, what's the solution for a woman to avoid being used for sex? Or are we suppose to just spread our legs when a man needs it? You know..after that date where he tallied up how much I owed and how much he owed.

 

I would prefer it if women always took things slowly. That age old solution solves a heck of a lot of problems.

 

When I was dating, I can definitely say there is a perception among women today that unless the guy tries to get sex right way... he is either gay or not that into her. So in order to avoid getting nixed right away... you have to be very aggressive.

 

I had a date where she invited me back to her place at the end of the night and I declined. We had a second date all lined up before that, but afterwards she never responded to me again.

[donnamaybe]

No, how about the solution where women take some responsibility for asking men out, paying for dates and only opening their legs when they wish to enjoy sex?

Well said.

[Untouchable_Fire]

The difference is that the meal is a shared experience you are both enjoying.

And, she won't be wearing that meal when she goes out with her next bf

 

Walking around a mall shopping and talking is a shared experience as well.

 

As for what she does with the shoe... does that really matter?

 

That depends on her metabolism.

 

[kaylan]

Being partners doesn't mean that everything is going to tally up tit for tat. And expecting it to through life is going to leave you frustrated and annoyed most of the time.

Im not saying its tallied.You are not hearing anything I have said. I am saying that expectations should not exist and people should give in to relationship what they expect to get out of it.

 

If you want to dismiss that as "tallying" then I guess I can expect to be treated well by a woman and be lazy in my own right

I am not in a relationship right now but when I am, I do things for my guy that are probably pretty old school stereotype. I do this EVEN in the beginning stages of getting to know a man to show him what I'm about and what *I* have to offer. All I hear on these threads are men whining about how much they deserve to "take" and very little about what *you* as a man have to offer yourself or give.

Well thats what you hear the whiners in the threads say. My threads are very different from that. I dont go for old school stereotypes with anything. Im not surprised you do since you follow old school gender norms. All I want is a relationship where I can make a woman feel good, and she do the same, without expecting behavior out of me that she would not return.

 

I have cooked lovely meals for men and never expected them to lift a hand while I have done the work. I have bought things for them that I thought they would like while I was out just "because" I wanted to give them a present, not because of a special occasion. I have made sure my fridge was stocked with their beer of choice if he was going to be coming over. And not once did I whine about how much dent that put in my wallet. Neither did I whine about "equality" just because I was the one cooking the meal. I have gotten down on my knees and happily given a man oral with no expectations of anything in return. I have taken care of his dog if he was going away for a trip. I bet no man would complain about these acts. Yet you, you complain if you have to buy a girl a $10 dollar dinner with maybe a 7 dollar drink. Geez. Maybe I should stop doing these things for men because they certainly aren't "equal".

Thats the thing...all the cooking and gift buying you say you do, many women dont do this. When I talk to my guy friends and here about how their relationships go, they by far do more romantic and nice things for their gals then the other way around. Not that these are bad gals, its just a lot of women seem to see romance as something men do to women.

 

Im not whining about equality...Im simply stating that your behavior is very rare in a girl. Very very.

 

You keep missing the damn point. I have no issue taking a girl out. I have issue taking out someone who wont treat me just as nice and who expects me to pay for her because its "the mans job" How many freaking times must I repeat myself before you understand?

 

This isn't about "equality", this is about certain men wanting to "take" everything they can from a woman without thinking about what they can "give". Relationships our about giving and sometimes giving things of yourself that you might not get back immediately. Relationships are messy and not always "equal" in exactly the same terms.

IM NOT CERTAIN MEN. I am me!

 

I want to be liked/loved for my personality. Me deciding on paying for a strangers dinner has NOTHING to do with that. Especially if it sets the precedent where the guy is the one spending the money on two people most of the time. There are MANY relationships like that, and only a small portion that work the other way around.

 

 

I think these are nice things to do. I just think if you are doing them because you don't want to have to "pay" for her, then your motivation to doing them aren't from a healthy place.

Are you daft?

Re-read what i said about motivation in my previous post. And why should I not try and save money while getting to know someone? Dating is rather expensive for a guy who meets women regularly. Women dont have to worry about such an expense. Along with clothing, colonge, getting my dreads done, etc...why should I spend more money on several women I dont know?

 

Why can I not save and just go for coffee and thrifty events. Lets be real.

 

Women SHOULD woo men too. Because relationships are about caring about someone else. relationships are about doing things for someone else because YOU want to. But if you are keeping score on everything making sure you get "yours", then you're just selfish. But if I ever conducted my relationships like you where I wasn't willing to give parts of myself or my money to him, then I would have missed out on a lot of nice moments.

BUT THEY DONT WOO MEN TOO. Thats what Ive been saying. Theres tons of threads online about this too. Where guys are wondering why they are the ones making the romance and chasing. Im just glad Im smart enough to make a girl prove her worth to me as well.

 

Its not keeping score, but one easily notices when they are the ones doing everything to chase the other all the time. I see men do this allllll the time. I stopped doing it as a kid and always made sure a girl would show her worth as much as I did.

 

I havent missed out on any moments because I found women who had no qualms about getting what they wanted and being open with me. I didnt have to chase, or go through the silly courtship routine. It was simply boy likes girl, girl likes boy, and we both do nice things for one another. It wasnt always simply about how a woman wanted to be treated, but about both man and woman.

 

I'll talk about motivation because it's really important. And I see a lot of men on here that don't want to have to do anything for a woman but expect sex and affection.

Men on HERE. This isnt the real world. If this place was representative of the real world, than the world would suck. I think you are mistaken about some guys here though.

 

Some of them are like me and have all the love in the world to give the right girl. Only one girl gets that love though. Till then one has to look out for their best interest.

I totally DO think you should find a woman that feels the same way about it you do. But you don't get to shame other women who want a different kind of man from what you are. Just because a woman holds expectations about being treated a certain way, just as YOU do, doesn't give you the right to call them names like "princess" to shame them.

Call it shaming if you want. I call it giving you a realistic opinion. Expectations are bad when meeting someone if those expectations arent standards you hold yourself to as well. Its selfish. Im not mistaken when I say some women want to be treated like princesses. Its an accurate assessment. All I have to do is ask certain girls this and they will agree.

 

They just happen to be the type of women I do date. A woman can be my queen and I her king. No princes or princesses who needed to be taken care of by someone. Only adults.

 

I see. So when it comes to sex, "it depends..." but when it comes to money, what is yours is yours and be damned that a woman is going to take your money away from you!

Way to twist what I was saying.

 

Can you read? I specifically said that sex depends on the situation. Sometimes it can happen before or after exclusivity. I also said that I spend money on a girl regardless if we are dating exclusively or not. Both situations depend on the woman involved and what the relationship is like.

 

Learn to read. Stop hearing what you want to hear.

 

 

And I bet women treat you how you treat them in return. All I hear is "me, me, me". Relationships are about two people. giving and receiving. And sometimes, at some point, someone is going to have to be the *first* to give something to the other. Whether it's money or something else. That's how relationships work.

Lmao.

 

I am very giving in a relationship. But only to a girl who deserves it. I wont waste my time on someone who doesnt deserve my kindness. Having expectations of a man, especially behavior a woman does not expect of herself, is exactly "me me me" type thinking. And thats a turn off.

 

Why the hell should I be chastised for not wanting to give money? I have plenty of qualities and experiences to give a woman that dont require it.

I've been out with enough men to know which ones act like paying is torture and which ones pay because they believe it to be the gentlemen like thing to do. I have also been out with men that had no qualms about not paying and wanted to go dutch even thought THEY asked me out. Such men never got a second date.

Youd think that. It all depends on the woman, and if the guy even wants to let you know it bothers him.

 

Some guys, like myself, can hide their annoyance very well.

 

And if guys dont get a second date from you because you went dutch, then they are better off. A woman with no substance writes off a guy for not paying her way. God forbid an adult female pay for her food and stuff when first meeting someone. He should definitely invest more:rolleyes:

 

I mean he must be super horrible and selfish to have a stranger pay for their own things. He must not have any good qualities. Only the most generous men pay for their dates. /sarcasm

 

As if paying for a date truly lets someone know how good of a mate of person someone is. Lets be real. This is exactly why I start off as friends with women. Get rid of any bogus expectations. Once you remove sex, then theres no excuse for special treatment by both sides.

 

 

Not really. While relationships should be about give and take, I seem more commentary from here from men about "taking" then I ever see men talk about what they have to give.

Again, this isnt the real world. Its an internet forum.

I do not deny that relationships should be about giving and taking. They should. But they are never goign to match tit for tat. Especially if there are certain things that you as a man enjoy vs certain things she as a woman enjoys. Men and women are equal but we are also sometiems different. Sometimes how a man treats a woman can make her feel liek a woman and vice versa. But it seems that a lot of men want to stomp on women's head's and crush their spirit while taking everything they can from a woman.

I never said they should match tit for tat. I just know that if a woman feels I should always take her out, or that if I dont take her out the first few times, and she would do the same for me....well then thats a selfish woman I couldnt date. I find asking others to perform behaviors that you wouldnt do yourself to be very off putting.

 

If I must be written off for not wanting to pay for a stranger I barely know, then that person is useless to my life anyways. Why would I want to be acquainted with someone who values my ability to garner attention with my money rather than my personality.

 

You keep talking about these men who want to take from women. Well hey, look at this....im one of the most giving guys there is in a relationship....but I choose not to give to people I hardly know. You as a woman would never know that because youd right me off for not paying for you when you were a stranger. Sucks for you though I guess.

 

 

So then why, if you do all these wonderful old fashion things, is the paying aspect such a hurt for you? If you give your kindness, your curtesy, your respect and a billion other things you as a man give when you hold doors open and treat her well, why is it that when it comes to money, that it's so important to you that you think a woman is taken advantage of you for your money when you would never think that when you hold doors open and do other gentlemen like things for a woman?

Still not following me? I do those things for a woman whos proven that she will be a loving and giving person to me as well. I wont waste my energy on a taker with expectations of me before I even really know them.

 

Also, money is a persons livelihood, man or woman. It should not be wasted on selfish strangers...or selfish people in general. It should only be spent on the deserving.

 

This I agree with. You just need to stop calling women that want a different kind of relationship then you names. Like "princess". In a means to shame them for their own unique set of needs.

 

Before you mentioned you held doors open for women and did that kind of stuff. How often do your gfs hold doors open for you and how does that happen? Is it a race to the door to see who gets the door first? Sometimes you hold it open and other times she does?

Silly question. Its just common courtesy to hold the door open for someone if you are ahead of them. If the girls ahead of me, she would get the door to be nice. If we are walking together, ill grab it since Im stronger anyways...since some doors are annoying and heavy lol.

 

Yes times have changed. And our country seems set on running to androgyny which I personally think is going to lead to our downfall, not more "equality". I am a woman and I enjoy being one. When a man treats me a certain way, it makes me feel even more feminine and it's a wonderful feeling. I suspect a lot of men respond the same way when a woman treats him a certain way. I don't want to be some "genderless" person of "equality". HOw boring. Everyone should be treated with respect and treated equal.

Lmao this country is far from going towards androgyny. And it wouldnt be our downfall if it did. Chill out. The only reason a man treating you a certain way makes you feel feminine is because youve been socialized to think that way. Youve been socialized to see certain actions as masculine or feminine. If you go to other countries, masculinity and femininity will be judged differently.

 

I dont need a certain type of woman to feel like a man. I have been attracted to a wide range of women. I just love women in general. Ive been attracted to the most super femme girls around, and been attracted to the strong jock girls on the rugby team. If shes got curves, I can dig her.

 

But being treated with respect and being equal doesn't mean we are teh same. Since I was made a woman, there are parts of me that respond like a woman. You can't take "gender" out of the equation in the hopes for "real equality". That's never going to work despite our countries desire to do so lately. We should respect men and women and understand our similaities and differences and celebrate them in healthy ways. Not push to shove out anything that distinguishes men from women. Being a man is a wonderful thing and so is a woman. And men and women are attracted to each other becaues they do infact bring different things to the table sometimes. (Clearly it's different for homosexual couples who get different things out of their relationships and who are JUST as deserving of respect.) But just because of that, doesn't mean we should obliterate gender.

Gender is a social construct btw. But I wont get into that.

 

But like I said, relationships should have equality. I never said it means we are the same. If gays and lesbians dont have expectations of one another when it comes to this tired old "who pays" debate, then hetero couples shouldnt either. The only reason it ever got tied to masculinity and femininity is because of old school sexist culture in which women were entirely dependent on men.

 

Yes, I mentioned this myself before. I have seen men spend more money on other men for each other with more openesses display then I have seen men spend money on other women. When it comes to other men, you don't think so much about what you get out of it. YOu met some guys, you liked them, you bought them some drinks and they bought you some drinks. But funny when it comes to women how close fisted some men become. All the sudden it's about her taken advantage of you.

The reason we are less apt to spend on women is because women are less apt to spend on men.

 

Its easy to do with your bros because your bros always spend on you without issue. Women tend to not be like this with guys. Id love to shoot the **** in a bar with some ladies and buy rounds back and forth. But girls dont do this with guys. Some frequently go to the bar/club with a little bit of cash and get drinks from dudes they met.

 

 

I think you might have more respect for your guy friends that buy you dinner because your looking to him as another man, you aren't looking at him through a sheen of potential sex partner. It takes a lot of question off the table. With women, you and other men fear being used. With other men, you don't have the same fear. So you display more openess and generocity toward other men because certain factors are taken out then you do with women and women pick up on that within their dates.

You misread my question. I was asking about who I am special to. The question was "who sees me as more special to them?" Is it the guys who will treat me and show me a good time when we chill...or the girl who expects me to pay most of the time because Im the man? It would be obvious to me that my friends see me as more special since they treat me as an equal. Luckily I havent been involved with the kind of woman I described like many guys ive known.

 

I have much respect for anyone who just treats me as a good friend. Sex has nothing to do with that. If a girl is willing to treat me the way she does a good friend, I have no issue. Its just that with men and women, the idea of sex seems to skew things into becoming "what does the man have to do to get the woman" not "what do they have to do to get one another"

 

Why is it my chick friends will buy me dinner, but I couldnt expect the same thing from a girl on a date. Note that Id want a stranger to buy me dinner, but I just find it weird how a woman would even allow a stranger to do that. Lord knows I wouldnt of let that dude I become buds with buy me a drink unless I had the means to do the same.

 

Why are you getting you back up because I talked about taking a girl on a simple picnic? This is my issue. It's the "me, me, me" mentality. I can't even mention taking a girl on a picinic without you feeling freaked out or that I'm saying women shouldn't do things for their men. You can't even say "yeah you know what, a picnic is a nice idea". You automatically feel like someone is taking something from you by a mere suggestion that you take a girl out on a picnic. Geez.

Again, you miss what I am saying.

 

I dont have a "me me me" mentality. If you talking to enough men and women youd get my point. Romance is usually something women receive. Not guys. Especially not in America. There are threads about this online. Guys wonder why their gals never plans the trips, or get the gifts out of the blue, or show up to work to say hi. Men are expected to do these things.

 

But go to Japan and guys have their own version of Valentines day for example. Its not that Im super mooshy and need all that. Its just you notice these things after growing up the US. The reason I said what i did about the picnic was to point of YOUR mentality and well as many womens. Whenever people make suggestions on nice things to do in a relationship, its usually done in the language you use yourself....what can be done "for her" or to make her "feel like a woman"

Then you do have an issue with being a romantic dude. If you really wanted to be a romantic dude, you would be. But you are too worried about you getting yours first.

 

I am not arguing that you aren't allowed to want the type of woman you do. There are many women out there like that. I just am sick of hearing women get called names and put down as "princesses" and "golddiggers" because their views of dating are old fashinioned.

Lmao, again you should learn to read properly.

 

I am romantic with women who deserve to see that side of me. A girl who is selfish and one sided about it doesnt deserve such treatment. Its not about getting mine first. When it comes to many things in life, people shouldnt put themselves in a position to be taken advantage or not have their actions appreciated. Thats all I was getting at.

 

Am I going to be romantic to the girl whos gonna get me a new soccer ball for our 3 month? Or the girl who doesnt open up much and didnt put thought into a birthday present? You receive what you give...and I would never date the second girl btw.

 

You can get mad all you want about old fashioned women being seen as princesses and gold diggers....but thats how things will be. We are in a time where women can be self sufficient. Some have their own means to take care of themselves and still choose for men to take care of them like princesses because they are old fashioned. Not a lot of guys appreciate that. So blame those ladies.

 

I understand that. You approach your relationships from the idea of "what do I get *first* before I give anything". You approach them from, " I will only give x if she gives first".

 

Who says it's archaic? Who says your type of dating is a step further? Sounds like a step back because to me, it sounds like men are becoming even more selfish and greedy and less willing to open themselves up to relationships and consider their partner and her needs over his own.

Its not about what I get first. You arent reading what I am saying. Its about knowing that a girl will not give me a set of standards that she doesnt have for herself.

 

Btw, look up the definition of archaic and get back to me. I used the word properly.

 

The fact that you use the word "cry", is also an attempt at "shaming" my view points. When you call women names for not behaving the way *you* want them to, you are shaming them. Calling women "princesess" is shaming them. Simple

Excuse me for not being more eloquent. I used the word cry, because you can only complain about shaming so many times before I perceive it as whining. You said guys are whining about stuff....isnt that the same as crying?

 

Meh.

 

And women being called princesses applies. Ask many women with old fashioned views of courtship "do you want a man who will treat you like a princess?" They will mostly answer yes. So lets be real. This is rather pointless arguing with you about this though. Just do your thing and Ill do mine. My way of doing things isnt hurting me, even with women who want old fashioned courtship. So it is what it is. We at least get some fun out of one another.

[xxoo]

Walking around a mall shopping and talking is a shared experience as well.

 

As for what she does with the shoe... does that really matter?

 

It would matter to me!

 

On an early date, I'd be very weirded out by a guy wanting to buy me shoes or clothes. I would probably refuse to accept it.

 

Different matter in a gf/bf scenario.

[xxoo]

And women being called princesses applies. Ask many women with old fashioned views of courtship "do you want a man who will treat you like a princess?" They will mostly answer yes.

 

Nothing wrong with wanting to be treated like a Princess, as long as she is prepared to treat you like a Prince

 

The problem is when a man is so infatuated that he'll treat her like a queen, while being treated like the dirt on the bottom on her shoe.

 

Same holds true for women treating men like a king it isn't deserved.

[Untouchable_Fire]

It would matter to me!

On an early date, I'd be very weirded out by a guy wanting to buy me shoes or clothes. I would probably refuse to accept it.

Different matter in a gf/bf scenario.

 

I understand that you feel differently about the two scenarios, but why?

 

Basically, you spend some time together talking... then he buys you something. That is the pattern for a date. It doesn't matter if buys a Shoe or a Steak.

 

Why is it acceptable to expect and demand that he buy you one thing and not another?

[KathyM]

I dont think its tit for tat. I think things should be equal without any expectations or entitlements. Stop falling back on the "the person who asks should pay" argument because we all know men ask women a great portion of the time. Women barely outright ask dudes to hang outgo on dates. They may ask them to chill and do something, but hardly ever ask to take them out.

 

You keep thinking its only about money. Its not. Its about unnecessary expectations and setting the wrong precedent in a relationship. I dont spend money on strangers either...cheap or expensive. I have no reason to unless Im invested in them and know them a lil bit.

 

If there was a guy here saying he only ever went on dates with women who asked him out and that he expected them to pay since they asked...you know damn well that hed be getting the stink eye from the girls here.

 

I think it comes off cheap when women like you expect me to pay for them as if we are not both independent, working adults. This is why I ask girls to come hang with me in groups or do really low key stuff when we first chill. So I can feel them out and see if I have to axe them for any behavior I dislike. If I waited around for women to ask me to chill all the time, Id never date. Because like I said, we know you ladies wont ask a guy to hang out most of the time...so even if you like him, some of you will sit around and wait for him to take you out and pay.

 

I dont want to take someone out. I want to go out together with someone and enjoy ourselves. We can take each other out once weve established some exclusivity. And the men who pay usually do it because they feel society tells them they have to. I already explained that Ive still hooked up with these entitled girls, without paying a cent. If a girl likes men, she likes me, and nothing is changing that. If she wants to walk because of some stupid money issue, by all means. Im not desperate and her entitlement is her own red flag.

 

Theres a big disconnect between LS and the real world...because most women I come across who I share this idea with never have a problem with it. Maybe its because I grew up in a liberal area and went to a pretty liberal school. Or maybe Its that im awesome and girls like my personality and know itd be stupid to bail for petty reasoning when they already know I make them feel great. No girl gets special treatment different from the rest of my friends until shes special to me.

 

Maybe the girls Ive met have all been European...because they are def more equal over there. No princess thinking. My euro classmates always told me how stupid they thought it was that American girls felt they needed men to do this or do that for them. The fact that theyd ask American boys out and take them out put them miles ahead of the rest of the girls. Whatever works I guess.

I think you're too hung up on equality. Tit for tat, or whatever you want to call it. That's a sure fire way to ruin a relationship, or even a marriage, if people refuse to do something for someone unless they get something in return. Or if they won't do something for someone unless the other person does something first. That attitude is what ruins many marriages. I've seen it in relationships that have failed or are struggling, and I've read about it in marriage therapy literature. I know a couple who are struggling with this issue as I type this. The husband refuses to do something his wife asks until he gets assurance that she is going to do something for him first, or simultaneously. All this keeping tabs, tit for tat stuff is what kills a relationship, whether it's in the early stages, or throughout a relationship or a marriage. And I think if a guy shows that he has that kind of mindset early on, it doesn't bode well for how generous in spirit and how giving a person he will be in a relationship with things other than money, such as his time, his attention, his willingness to do things for a partner, etc. A relationship works out best if the parties have the mindset of doing something for a person without expecting something in return, and that generosity of spirit is what appeals to women.

 

As far as men paying all the time, I don't believe most women expect that at all. I certainly would not. I think it's polite to reciprocate, and I think a lot of women do reciprocate. I'm just suggesting that on the first date, whoever invites the person out should be prepared to pick up the tab. I think it's the polite thing to do.

 

You say you don't spend money on strangers--not even a little money. Is it really so bad to buy a nice stranger a cup of coffee, or an inexpensive meal? I think it shows generosity. If you think you can't be generous until someone else is generous to you, then I'd say you have backwards thinking there. Your generosity is not supposed to come with strings attached. Is it so hard to bring yourself to do something nice for someone without having expectations or strings attached? I just don't get this kind of thinking. Guys that think it's a fate worse than death to spring for a cup of coffee on a first date. Guys that are so afraid of being taken advantage of that they hang onto their pennies for dear life. Heaven forbid they don't get equal or better in return for that $3.95 investment in a cup of coffee.

 

I think a dating relationship should be reciprocal, with both parties doing the planning, and both parties reciprocating. But this "I'm only paying for myself" kind of thinking just seems selfish to me.

 

As far as Europeans, I'm married to one, my first boyfriend was also European and many of our friends are European. I think they tend to have a more chivalrous attitute than American men, and generally better manners, and they don't have a problem with picking up the tab when they invite you out either.

[xxoo]

I understand that you feel differently about the two scenarios, but why?

 

Basically, you spend some time together talking... then he buys you something. That is the pattern for a date. It doesn't matter if buys a Shoe or a Steak.

 

Why is it acceptable to expect and demand that he buy you one thing and not another?

 

It is not ok to demand either, and spending money is NOT necessarily the pattern for a date. A great date can be completely free!

 

Buying a gift for the sake of buying a gift is odd when you just met. You can shop for hours without buying anything, you know! Eventually we all must eat, though

[aj22one]

 

Guys that think it's a fate worse than death to spring for a cup of coffee on a first date. Guys that are so afraid of being taken advantage of that they hang onto their pennies for dear life. Heaven forbid they don't get equal or better in return for that $3.95 investment in a cup of coffee.

 

 

Well that's fine if we're talking about 5 or fewer dates a year. But let's say the average first date or two runs 5-10 bucks for a guy and over the course of a year he goes out on 10-15 first dates (not totally out of the question). So now that "$3.95" now comes out to 50 or 150 bucks a year investment.

 

Now if nothing is coming out of those efforts that means you basically wasted 150 bucks for "generosity", some people would rather just give that money to a charity. And, while $150 wouldn't break me, I'd imagine in this economy for some people it would.

[xxoo]

So now that "$3.95" now comes out to 50 or 150 bucks a year investment.

 

Investment is the right way to look at it. Investment in his own future, seeking the best possible partner.

 

You have to play to win!

 

Still, the woman on this thread DID offer to split the bill at the first spot. The date could have ended there, and cost the OP nothing.

 

The OP refused her offer, and suggested a second spot...hoping she would pick up the whole tab at the second spot. She never offered to pay for his dinner, and he should not have expected it.

[aj22one]

Investment is the right way to look at it. Investment in his own future, seeking the best possible partner.

 

Oh I agree. But to a guy living paycheck to paycheck, an extra 150 dollar expenditure could be crucial. Again, I'd be fine even if we were talking 3-4x that much. But I'm just explaining how some might not be, especially young guys.

 

You have to play to win!

 

Thanks Herman Edwards...

[KathyM]

Yeah, she wanted new boobs. I should have known, because I hate fake ones... but she gave me this junk about how these will be really real looking and if I don't like them she will get them removed... ect.

 

It really isn't going from one extreme to another. You teach people how to treat you... and if you start off with letting them take advantage of you financially it will end that way too.

 

Besides... do you honestly believe that you can tell how generous a man is by whether he pays for your dinner? That's like me trying to claim I can tell a woman's intellect by her bra size.

 

I'm sorry you were victimized, but I'm sure you learned your lesson--don't loan women money. Don't buy women expensive things, unless you're in a serious relationship with them. And don't pay for their plastic surgery until you're married to them, or they may end up using their newfound appearance with someone else. Even that isn't a guarantee. I know a woman who got her breasts surgically enhanced who was married at the time. Afterwards, she decided her husband's appreciation for it was not enough for her, so she started affairs in order to show off her new figure. Crazy, but true.

 

I don't think it's a good plan to go into a date thinking a woman is going to take advantage of you. Just keep it simple for the first date, and I'm sure most women will reciprocate for later dates. It shouldn't be this tit for tat kind of thing. First impressions are important. That's all a woman has to go by when deciding to progress in a relationship. If you want to give her the impression that you're going to be the kind of guy who keeps tabs on who pays for what, it's going to leave her with a not so great impression.

 

 

 

I would say Kaylan comes across more as shocked than bitter.

 

I'm honestly going to say that what just makes me face palm every time I see it... is this idea the because a man pays for your dinner he is warm and generous. Do you really believe that?

 

If he pays for dinner, that does show some generosity on his part. It is one indication of a generous spirit, a first impression, which may or may not prove to be true.

 

The issue is that your so focused on how this behavior makes you feel... that you are completely blind to it's actual meaning.

 

I agree that cheap dates are a very good solution.

 

Well, at least we can agree on that.

 

* One side note * I've been on enough dates to know that no matter what happens a guy needs to try and get physical as fast as possible. Any guy who likes to go slow will most likely lose, because it comes across as lack of interest or lack of passion.

Now that I would not agree with--that you have to try to get physical as quickly as possible. I'd say, most women would take that to mean you are only interested in sex, and not in establishing a relationship, although I do think it's a good idea to make lesser moves for affection, such as kissing, hugging, holding hands, on a first date. But if you go in for the full package on a first date, I think a lot of women will be scared off by that.

[donnamaybe]

A guy paying for things doesn't necessarily mean he's all kind and generous. It could be a calculated move on his part.

 

I prefer actions other than the opening of a wallet to prove a guy is kind and giving.

[KathyM]

A guy paying for things doesn't necessarily mean he's all kind and generous. It could be a calculated move on his part.

 

I prefer actions other than the opening of a wallet to prove a guy is kind and giving.

True, some men want to pay because they think it will entitle them to sex, but I think for the most part, men pay because they want to make a good impression, and/or they think it's their responsibility since they invited the woman out. I think it's a nice, polite gesture, and does indicate a more generous spirit. There's really not a lot to go on with the first date to determine what type of person the guy is, which is why making a good first impression with whatever means you can is a good thing. I'd certainly agree that actions also demonstrate a kind and generous spirit, such as holding a door open for a woman, helping her off with her coat, and other polite gestures, as well as finding out what the man does with his free time, whether he is interested in altruistic things, what his values are, etc.

[donnamaybe]

True, some men want to pay because they think it will entitle them to sex, but I think for the most part, men pay because they want to make a good impression, and/or they think it's their responsibility since they invited the woman out. I think it's a nice, polite gesture, and does indicate a more generous spirit. There's really not a lot to go on with the first date to determine what type of person the guy is, which is why making a good first impression with whatever means you can is a good thing. I'd certainly agree that actions also demonstrate a kind and generous spirit, such as holding a door open for a woman, helping her off with her coat, and other polite gestures, as well as finding out what the man does with his free time, whether he is interested in altruistic things, what his values are, etc.

But see, that's the thing. "Want to make a good impression." For someone who has plenty of cash, how hard is that? It's easy to make a good impression if that's what people look for is money being spent. My guy has a habit of just wanting to help people, some of them nearly strangers. To me, that makes a much better impression than someone merely pulling out their wallet. He is a hard worker and honest. These kinds of things, it takes time to discover. People are talking about this agreement to pay for dinner like it's some kind of grand gesture when it happens and a huge red flag when it doesn't. I would find it much more telling if a guy was a cheap azz with the tip whether we went dutch or not. After all, he's not trying to impress the wait person. Or does he do things for his mama? Is he kind to small children and animals? It's easy to buy dinner. Any schmuck can carry that off.

[Woggle]

Buying a person dinner does not make you more caring. My former boss would treat us to lunch all the time yet for most part he treated his employees like garbage.

[KathyM]

But see, that's the thing. "Want to make a good impression." For someone who has plenty of cash, how hard is that? It's easy to make a good impression if that's what people look for is money being spent. My guy has a habit of just wanting to help people, some of them nearly strangers. To me, that makes a much better impression than someone merely pulling out their wallet. He is a hard worker and honest. These kinds of things, it takes time to discover. People are talking about this agreement to pay for dinner like it's some kind of grand gesture when it happens and a huge red flag when it doesn't. I would find it much more telling if a guy was a cheap azz with the tip whether we went dutch or not. After all, he's not trying to impress the wait person. Or does he do things for his mama? Is he kind to small children and animals? It's easy to buy dinner. Any schmuck can carry that off.

It's just one indicator, and on a first date, you don't have a whole lot else to go by at that point, since you don't really know the person well enough.

[KathyM]

Buying a person dinner does not make you more caring. My former boss would treat us to lunch all the time yet for most part he treated his employees like garbage.

Well, at least he wasn't both a jerk and a cheapskate.

[Woggle]

Well, at least he wasn't both a jerk and a cheapskate.

 

He was a cheapskate because he didn't pay us enough and wrote off the lunches as a company expense.

[KathyM]

He was a cheapskate because he didn't pay us enough and wrote off the lunches as a company expense.

At least he didn't make you pay for your own lunch.