donnamaybe Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I think you are an extremely smart young woman MissBee who has come to some learn some wonderful insights about yourself and what makes people tick in general. You are a gift to LS. Agree 100%! Link to post Share on other sites
Author MissBee Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Awww thanks guys Link to post Share on other sites
LilMissMovinOn Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Most people, who so happen to be men in this case, seem to miss the point. Maybe it's because I'm sociologically trained, which makes it easier for me to spot trends versus looking at individuals..but the point of the article was to discuss the societal conditioning about women and truisms that people take for granted about women...the author said so himself and even explained that it was not a conscious process on men's part....There are MANY societal myths that go untested or stereotypes that go unchecked and the author is dealing with a specific one and that is the one about women and their emotions and he is going beyond what everyone widely accepts...he even pointed out women themselves who believe this, because that is what society says...to find out what else is going on. One point I always make here, and everywhere else, and maybe it is because I have been trained to be more attune to what doesn't seem obvious...is that the human world on both a person and psychological then communal, sociological level is built upon layers of subconscious beliefs and attitudes...and even if you are "smart" you may not notice them without deep inspection and critique. That's my job and passion though and Ali is on the money. It has nothing to do with "mean le men" but rather "mean ol societal traditions and conditioning that mean ole men lie and do without being aware of it". Likewise women also have certain general ways of behaving that is a product of the same. He gave the example of how often women will communicate by prefacing their communication with words that soften what they're saying and a friend of mine is a Linguist who has done research on this and how societally women are taught to be less assertive and one is taught to value being "nice" whereas men are taught to be more assertive and it is okay for them to be demanding. The point quite frankly is that we have come to learn that societal patterns are real...and they are gendered and MANY of our "natural" ways of being as men and women are a product of that...and this article was highlighting it. Those who think gender plays no role anymore are as sadly mistaken as those who believe race or socioeconomic status have zero to do with the workings of the world. But thank God for those who do actually dedicate their work to doing research on those realities. VERY well put! I agree wholeheartedly MissBee (minor in sociology / major in psych - onging here) I found the article most helpful & enlightening. I would take it's premise a step further, however, by arguing that subjecting a person repeatedly & deliberately to gaslighting, is a form of emotional ABUSE rather than mere manipulation (the latter of which may or may not be, conscious or malicious in intent). Calling this behaviour what it actually IS, is more powerful IMO, because doing so, issues of POWER, CONTROL & DEHUMANISATION which are CENTRAL all forms of abuse are placed front & centre of the debate, & rightly so. Intimate partner violence (of which emotional abuse is but one form) IS gendered in directionality when we look at population samples as opposed to individuals. That is, the prevalence of male violence toward females BY FAR outweighs the prevalence of the same reverse, a phenomena which is underpinned by sexist / misogynist cultural norms rooted in patriarchy. Thankyou for deepening my understanding of emotional abuse by posting the article. I considered it so informative, that I posted a link to it on my fb page! Edited January 10, 2012 by LilMissMovinOn Link to post Share on other sites
Author MissBee Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 VERY well put! I agree wholeheartedly MissBee (minor in sociology / major in psych - onging here) I found the article most helpful & enlightening. I would take it's premise a step further, however, by arguing that subjecting a person repeatedly & deliberately to gaslighting, is a form of emotional ABUSE rather than mere manipulation (the latter of which which may or may not be, conscious or malicious in intent). Calling this behaviour what it actually IS, is more powerful IMO, because doing so, issues of POWER, CONTROL & DEHUMANISATION which are CENTRAL all forms of abuse are placed front & centre of the debate, & rightly so. Intimate partner violence (of which emotional abuse is but one form) IS gendered in directionality when we look at population samples as opposed to individuals. That is, the prevalence of male violence toward females BY FAR outweighs the prevalence of the same reverse, a phenomena which is underpinned by sexist / misogynist cultural norms rooted in patriarchy. Thankyou for deepening my understanding of emotional abuse by posting the article. I considered it so informative, that I posted a link to it on my fb page! Beautifully said! I original saw it posted on FB by one of my friends but didn't get to read it until my best friend sent it to me again...and it was sent to her by a male student in her class. I could relate so much both personally as well as with the theories from a scholarly point of view and thought I MUST share it! Link to post Share on other sites
LilMissMovinOn Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Beautifully said! I original saw it posted on FB by one of my friends but didn't get to read it until my best friend sent it to me again...and it was sent to her by a male student in her class. I could relate so much both personally as well as with the theories from a scholarly point of view and thought I MUST share it! Well thank goodnes you did share it. Assuming he's not a mature age student, that male student is well on the way to maturing into a real gem! Link to post Share on other sites
LilMissMovinOn Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Do we know that's entirely true? Men are taught to keep things inside so who's to say that there aren't a lot of men who say nothing when they're subjected to this in the reverse? I'd bet a big part of my lunch money on that being fact. The research clearly recognises tht intimate partner violence is perpetrated also by females to males & by same sex partners to ea other (in particular, interestingly enough, in lesbian r.ships) & I agree tht the incidence of female to male violence wud b under reported, just like it is in the reverse. To answer yr Q though yes, my statement is known fact to be true. It is based on research analysing police reports, IPV homicides & court data on applications for intervention orders Look it up. The stats are staggeringly directional in tht IPV is overwhelming perpetrated by men toward women. This is the case the world over. Sad I know but there u hav it! Cheers & I hope yr u find yr digging around for stats on this subject enlightening. I have a bunch a fairly recent one's for Aust here somewhere, but it's late & well past my bed time. Link to post Share on other sites
donnamaybe Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Speculation is all well and good, but until said speculation is backed up by facts... Link to post Share on other sites
LilMissMovinOn Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) Research can only be done on reported violence which supports your statement. However, if all abuse could be documented, I think you'd see quite a shift in the data results. Honestly, the same sex partnerships having a greater number of reported abuse in women's relationships versus men somewhat supports that theory. I don't think it's that women aren't abusive with men. I think men tend to be more stoic and frankly, it might be ego driven, as men would be more reluctant to acknowledge that they might need protection from a woman. IPV in lesbian r.ships is no more prevelent in lebian r.ships than it is in heterosexual r.ships charactarised by male violence toward women. I think you may have misunderstood something there. IPV is overwhelmingly gender based ie male violence toward women (& children). This is because it is about power & control. Put simply, males as a sex are simply much physically stonger than women & women's role as the bearer of children, which as a sex, takes them out of the workforce prematurely & often permanently, means than men as a population have much greater economic power. Underlying this basic fact is the structure of patriarchial societies began with the premise that females were mere property, to be bought & sold as domestic slaves via the institution of marriage (hence countries such as India, requiring a brides family to pay the grooms family money or posessions, known as dowry, for the priveledge of marrying her). In fact historically speaking, the idea of marrying for love a fairly recent development. Given that public anti domestic violence campaigns are so commonplace nowadays, I'm surprised that are there still people out there, who are so uneducated on even the basics of this issue. Go do yr homework! Edited January 12, 2012 by LilMissMovinOn Link to post Share on other sites
Author MissBee Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) IPV in lesbian r.ships is no more prevelent in lebian r.ships than it is in heterosexual r.ships charactarised by male violence toward women. I think you may have misunderstood something there. IPV is overwhelmingly gender based ie male violence toward women (& children). This is because it is about power & control. Put simply, males as a sex are simply much physically stonger than women & women's role as the bearer of children, which as a sex, takes them out of the workforce prematurely & often permanently, means than men as a population have much greater economic power. Underlying this basic fact is the structure of patriarchial societies began with the premise that females were mere property, to be bought & sold as domestic slaves via the institution of marriage (hence countries such as India, requiring a brides family to pay the grooms family money or posessions, known as dowry, for the priveledge of marrying her). In fact historically speaking, the idea of marrying for love a fairly recent development. Given that public anti domestic violence campaigns are so commonplace nowadays, I'm surprised that are there still people out there, who are so uneducated on even the basics of this issue. Go do yr homework! Great post! You said what I was going to say, in a much better way. I think the bottom line and point , which I mentioned earlier in the thread, is not about whether or not women ever abuse men too but about the underlying societal messages about women and the messages men internalize and the behaviors that socialization promotes are harmful and dehumanizing. It is not about if women are capable but who does it MORE and WHY? It is kind of like when people here are adamant that some married men do leave for the OW....when that was never disputed, well not disputed by most anyway. But that is simply NOT the overall trend. Edited January 12, 2012 by MissBee Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 You're so sensitive. You're so emotional. You're defensive. You're overreacting. Calm down. Relax. Stop freaking out! You're crazy! I was just joking, don't you have a sense of humor? You're so dramatic. Just get over it already! Sound familiar?Yep, sure does. They forgot one quote I've commonly heard as part of 'gaslighting', that being 'you must've misunderstood'. Here's some more articles by the author: The Key To Success: Be A Man Nov 22, 2011 | 12:11 PM Comments (127) Now...Give Your Uncle a Kiss Nov 15, 2011 | 12:11 PM Comments (21) He Doesn't Deserve Your Validation: Putting The Fake Orgasm Out of Business Oct 24, 2011 | 02:10 PM Comments (144) Are You Being E-Maintained? What His Texts Really Mean Oct 17, 2011 | 05:10 PM Comments (56) A Message to Women From a Man: You Are Not "Crazy" Sep 12, 2011 | 03:09 PM Comments (225) On Menopause: Men Know Nothing -- It's Time To Change Sep 09, 2011 | 03:09 PM Comments (12) Men Will Never Truly Understand a Day in the Life of Women -- But Shouldn't We Try? Aug 29, 2011 | 06:08 PM Comments (10) Losing My Identity: Only Gay When I'm Not Iranian Aug 25, 2011 | 04:08 PM Comments (9) You're Unavailable? Fantastic! When Are We Getting Married? Aug 22, 2011 | 03:08 PM Comments (27) Is the Equal Rights Amendment for Hippies Like Richard Nixon? Aug 15, 2011 | 01:08 AM Comments (1) My Feminist Re-Birth(s) Aug 10, 2011 | 04:08 PM Comments (101) A Change of Heart: The Real Housewives Can Do Real Damage Jul 18, 2011 | 01:07 PM Comments (191) That's One Small Step for Politics, One Giant Leap Back for the Homeless Jun 26, 2011 | 05:06 PM Comments (0) Politicians Who Are Pro-Choice but Against Marriage Equality Are Insulting Our Intelligence Jun 22, 2011 | 04:06 PM Comments (16) She's Not a Time-Bomb: Are Men Teaching Kids to Respect Women? Jun 29, 2011 | 06:06 PM Comments (65) Our Fathers' Secrets Jun 17, 2011 | 05:06 PM Comments (0) The One Thing We Can't Learn From Other People's Mistakes Jun 09, 2011 | 02:06 PM Comments (5) A Real Political Scandal: The Press Conference I'd Like To See Jun 07, 2011 | 10:06 AM Comments (4) I Didn't Go To College and I Am Proud of It Jun 01, 2011 | 02:06 PM Comments (14) A Fast Car Following Rosa's Footsteps May 26, 2011 | 10:05 AM Comments (17) Why Don't We Have More Women in Public Office? Look at Who's Running the Campaigns May 23, 2011 | 05:05 PM Comments (7) That could have been myself a generation ago when I was taking up the torch for all the women oppressed, abused and molested by the male dominated society. Young and ignorant I was. Life taught a lot of lessons. Happy reading. Link to post Share on other sites
Heather1 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Those article titles are classic, I'll have to read through them. Just another boundary issue for men & women. When someone tells you your gut, rational feelings are invalid .....time to review that R. I got a compliment from a co-worker & I was so flattered, until the other co-worker made fun of the compliment & said some really awful things to bring my ego down from the 1st one. He's out of my life for good. As for OM gas lighting, I'm sure he's said some things to qualify. Still, it's ultimately up to me to squash the R if I feel abused. If I was coming from a place of maintaining healthy R I wouldn't have gotten in this boat. & yea, I've been known to over-react as a woman. I've also been spot on & been told I'm over reacting. Link to post Share on other sites
Heather1 Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Ps, read some of the articles & love the faking orgasms. Is that considered gaslighting?? I've only had one (real) o w/ OM, one I could have had by myself . We'll fake until we realize we can have a real one, w/ someone else. Link to post Share on other sites
Author MissBee Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Ps, read some of the articles & love the faking orgasms. Is that considered gaslighting?? I've only had one (real) o w/ OM, one I could have had by myself . We'll fake until we realize we can have a real one, w/ someone else. I've never faked an orgasm, I see no point. If I didn't have an orgasm, then I didn't and if we are in a serious relationship, then we need to work on it. But pretending like someone is doing a great job, when they aren't, doesn't lend itself to improvement and I will probly NEVER achieve one, as he has no reason to do better. I think a man can have more fun and be more useful if women wouldn't do that. I do a lot of "typical" woman stuff but that is one I see no point in. Link to post Share on other sites
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