Did I do the right thing ? Broke up with someone I love

[frenchmanfl]

Hi everyone,

 

How to keep this story short ? My ex as of yesterday and I were together for 8 months, with a month break in between. I know one asks, 8 months that's nothing...well it is a lot when deep love is involved.

 

I preface this with the fact that she has ocd / depression and likely is bi-polar. The former two admitted. Relationship started off with intense emotions and within a few months discussions of marriage and moving in. The latter is a key point.

 

She did break it off a couple of months ago. It was clear the pressure got to her and at this point in any relationship we should have been communicating better. I didn't know anything about OCD or depression prior to about two weeks before the break up. I educated myself more than most would and realized why I felt unstable because of the push/pull I was getting from her for many weeks. Madly in love one day, distant the next. Once I understood, the light bulb went off, but by then things had gotten complicated.

 

During the break, I sent her only two notes not dripping with sadness but rather expressions of a desire to try again, my knowing how I needed to handle things like space etc. Two weeks after receiving my second note, she calls. We catch up and say goodnight. The next day she calls and wants to get together, earlier than I expected. We do and have a wonderful day and evening together. Clearly tons of attraction and caring still there. We get together twice after this, both times her calling and asking. I wanted to continue to give her space to prove to her that I was not needy.

 

She continues to call, one night twice ( because I didn't answer. Not message left, both frequency and no message completely unlike her. I send her an email the next morning saying I crashed early because I had something important to do that morning and I would call. I did and we chatted. Again she called regularly and when I called her ( a couple of times ) if she didn't answer she would call straight back or cut into another call to say hi.

 

Then there was silence for a few days and I felt something was up. So yesterday I call and simply ask nicely, are you dating ? Her response, I did a few times, it was no big deal. I was shocked but reacted calmly saying I was happy for her and that I had to go. She said " so how are you ? " I apologized and said I had things to do. She refused to let me go and asked what was up. I explained I thought that we were working on things and that was respecting her call that she had to focus on work by giving her space, that I didn't realize that we were not committed. She then launched into me about two issues she has carried since they happened, one I was aware of and had apologized for profusely for ( nothing like cheating just a judgement error that she misconstrued as a sign of disrespect, a worker at her place and my desire to assist which she didn't want me to do ) and the second I had no idea about. She had asked me early on to move in with her and for certain reasons I said to her that I wanted us to move in under the right circumstances.

 

Two weeks later a friend of mine was desperate, broke and needed a place to stay and I offered my couch. I didn't realize it until yesterday when she brought it up but she was badly hurt by this thinking that I wasn't ready to move in with her but was ready to help my friend out.

 

I explained clearly on the phone yesterday why ( my reasons for staying here also stemmed from this place being close to my son and that I wanted access to him...she lives downtown, too far ).

 

She persisted on both of these points, said I never put a ring on her finger and now she just wasn't ready for a commitment, then she got angry and said I have to go...said ok cool. 2hrs later she calls back apologizing for her attitude etc, I said " so is this closure for you " she wouldn't answer. Hangs up. She calls back a few hours later, again apologizing but saying I still have serious feelings for you and an open heart but I am not ready for a commitment, bad timing. Said we should hang out ! There is more to it but this is sufficient.

 

An after we hung up, I sent her a text saying that I thanked her for her honesty and complete respected her viewpoint but that I couldn't share someone I loved ( I had expressed my love and desire for a loving relationship with communication and marriage in a previous conversation ) with other men. Said if she had a change of heart down the road, if neither one of us was attached for her to call me and we could see how things went. Closed with " I will miss you ".

 

That was last night...no response. I love this woman and would marry her tomorrow. To explain the connection and all of the things we have in common would take an hour. The last time we hung out, she said " I love hanging out with you. We cuddled and watched a movie that night and kissed " It was beautiful. I was happy. When I left her place she asked " when are we getting together again " I responded, you tell me. I was giving her space and trying to prove to her that I wasn't needy. She called me a few hours later and we just talked for an hour.

 

She feels safe with me and I know she loves me. I have been told she is afraid. She has had abusive relationships all of her life and been through a great deal. I understand the dynamic of ocd and the obsessive thoughts.

 

However, no matter how much I love her, I can't allow her think I will just be there, no matter how much I desperately want to be. Did I do the right thing by saying I couldn't be friends but also leaving the door open saying that she could call if she had a change of heart ? If she is on the fence, I couldn't play the well lets hang out and see while she would likely see others. I needed to gently put my foot down. She was talking marriage and moving in together, where it would happen and so on. I made some mistakes but...

 

A note she once told me that, the one time she got married, she ended up chasing after the guy and asking him to marry her. It lasted seven years so she can have a long relationship. He left her badly, cheated and mocked her. I have done nothing but be supportive, loving, gentle and sweet. I am 43 she 41 ( not spring chickens ). I look much younger and am a good looking, fit man, a responsible Dad, intelligent, kind to others and romantic but not with flowers but other deeper ways. In other words, in other words, somewhat of a catch, but I am also the opposite of a player. I love one woman for a long time, never cheat. I was with my ex 20 years until she cheated on me.

 

Did I do the right thing by standing my ground ? What are the odds she will realize what she stands to lose ?

 

Sorry for the long story, I am stoic but very sad. Prepared for it to be over but desperately not wanting that to be the end result. Some say that with ocd and bipolar, that you should maintain contact and make sure they know your there for them, that they do and say things they don't mean. She harbors anger for things that I didn't understand were so impactful to her, but for which I have explained and apologized deeply for and that I couldn't have known they would hurt her so much.

 

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for listening.

[carhill]

Compare this dynamic to your 20 year M/LTR prior to your ex cheating on you.

 

 

Do you think a healthy relationship should be like this?

 

 

Has she proactively sought professional treatment for the issues she admits to and, if yes, does that treatment continue?

 

Did you do the 'right thing'? Unknown. Only time and reflection can answer that question. IME, ending relationships with chronically unstable people has been healthy for myself. Did I love them? Yeah, sure, some as friends and some as romantic partners. Loving someone is different from having a healthy relationship with them. It's OK to love and let go.

[Pens55]

I would say you handled the situation pretty well. There are 2 things that really jump out at me though, and I think you are aware of them too.

 

1. The infatuation and desire to move in so quickly in the beginning - this initial infatuation seems to be brought up here a lot and it seems that this is a sign that, while they adore you in the beginning, they cannot sustain this for in the long term.

2. The "afraid" or "scared" responses and push/pull - this is something I dont think you or I can understand because it is ingrained in their psyche. When you are distant, they need/want you, but when you get too close, their defense mechanisms kick in and they need to run like hell to avoid potential pain. Like all of us, you want a trusting, committed relationship and this is potentially something she cannot sustain.

 

I had a somewhat similar experience as you, and yes, I still love her and my heart still wants her back. I also did research on my ex's mental illnesses - I know it makes you feel like you understand it and can manage it. I was like you, I was extremely caring, willing to do whatever it takes, etc. to help her heal. But in the end, she couldnt change her thoughts or overcome her fear and it always ends the same.

 

She must learn and change from within, you cannot will her to overcome her issues. In my past, I had extreme anxiety and depression issues - however, I accepted them and worked to overcome them (mostly ) - that is the difference between some people and others. If she is open to dealing with her problems (a lot of hard work and pain), then it may work. But if she is content with following the same patterns she has exhibited, you will have a lot of pain in the future if you choose to stay.

 

Im no expert, just drawing from my own experiences...hope you find something of use in this

[Exit]

You absolutely, 100%, did the right thing, especially when it comes to dealing with someone with some issues.

 

I can't congratulate you enough, little do you know you just did yourself the biggest favor in the world. I'm not saying you have to be done with her for good but it is 100% right to put your foot down and put an end to all the crap and game playing ASAP. If you don't, you get sucked into the games and the misery, and it ends up destroying your self confidence and your sense of sanity, and then it's too late to put your foot down because all of a sudden you don't know which way is up anymore. There's almost an addictive component to trying to stay attached to these types of people, and even if some day you decide you're fed up and you've had enough, you find yourself feeling too guilty or confused to leave. You could not have made a more perfect decision, to get out with your sanity in tact, and telling her to get in touch if she ever wants to commit.

 

What other option is there? As you said, you don't want to mess around how some people do with "lets test the waters and see how this goes" and then meanwhile she's going on other dates, feelings get hurt, arguments happen, and you two would end up further apart than ever. People allowing themselves to get trapped in these "limbo" situations where they aren't in a fully committed relationship never ends up good. And out of the two people, the one who cares more and wants it to work out is the one who ends up signing up for websites like this to come and talk about how much their heart aches because they are trying to repair their relationship while the other person acts wishy-washy and goes out on other dates.

 

In 2011 I spent 4 months getting jerked around by an undecided female and let me tell you it was like nothing I have ever experienced. It was so so painful, just waking up every day waiting to experience more torture.

 

You made an absolutely brilliant move. If she decides to cut the crap and put some effort into this, great, you'll welcome her back once you hear those words (and if you decide she can be believed), and if not, you saved yourself from so much pain.

 

When dealing with partners who have depression, OCD, personality disorders, etc, it is so important to remain attached to the actual reality of the world around us and not get sucked into their distorted view of things. It's such an uphill battle to free yourself from these situations if you let yourself get sucked in for too long. If you look up self-help books for people dealing with a disordered partner, you'll find that so much of the material is about convincing the healthy partner that they're playing by unfair rules, that this person is dragging them down with them, and they need to stop trying. Similar to interventions for people with substance addictions, you always hear about the family members who are "loving these people to death" because they end up trying to show love by supporting the persons destructive habits. Well, people with emotional/mental issues have destructive habits as well, and trying to become part of their world and playing by their rules is the same type of unhealthy enabling. If you stick around, it would be encouraging her that what she's doing is okay, and then she has no reason to change. You effectively made your opinion clear that you're not going to stick around and be one of many options for her to date and decide on. "Don't make someone a priority if you are only an option to them".

 

In reality, the most loving thing you can do, is show these people that there are very real consequences to their actions, and motivate them to change.

 

Many times, the perfect partner for people with these issues is someone who is codependent or someone who has a "Savior" complex, who wants to love the person and help them with their issues, even if it means they have to become a doormat and get dragged through the mud during the process. The decision that you made shows that you're not going to be a codependent victim of this situation.

 

You did the right thing and this isn't even just my opinion, I've read and researched this type of thing because of what I've been through myself, and I had to learn that stepping back is the best thing you can do for everyone involved.

 

You were basically at a crossroads in this relationship where only one of you was going to have the power in this situation. Choosing to play by her rules would be allowing her to have the power. She could go on dates, she could string you along, and it could be weeks or months before she ever decided she wanted to commit to you, if ever. The other path entailed you keeping your own personal power. If she makes the right decision and comes contacting you to say she wants to make it work, then you're the one with the power, not her. You chose the right path.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Exit

[Downtown]

I felt unstable because of the push/pull I was getting from her for many weeks. Madly in love one day, distant the next.

Frenchman, I agree with everything Exit said -- especially the part about your wise decision to hold her fully accountable for her actions. As you say, your GF may suffer from OCD. I note, however, that the push-pull cycle you describe is a hallmark of not only OCD but also BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). With BPDers, the push-you-away and pull-you-back cycle arises from the person's twin fears of engulfment and abandonment.

 

What happens is that, as you draw close to her to reassure her of your love, a BPDer will feel engulfed and suffocated by your strong personality. Because a BPDer has a fragile sense of who she is, it is very frightening when she becomes intimate with you. She will feel like she is losing herself into your dominating personality. The result is that she will push you away, either by starting an argument over nothing -- or simply by withdrawing in icy silence.

 

Yet, as you back off to give her breathing room, you will unavoidably trigger her other great fear: that of abandonment. Hence, within a few days or weeks, a BPDer typically will start reeling you back in by acting extra caring and loving. Of course, the cycle will keep repeating itself because the two fears -- engulfment and abandonment -- lie at the polar extremes of the same spectrum.

 

This means that, when you are backing away from one of her triggers (engulfment) you are necessarily getting closer to the other trigger (abandonment). Sadly, there is no "Goldilocks position" where you can safely stand in the middle. I know because I tried to find that safe mid-way position for 15 years, all to no avail. If it exists at all, it is a knife edge that is constantly shifting -- and, hence, impossible to stand on.

She likely is bi-polar....

BPD is four times more common (at 6% of the population) than bipolar disorder (1.5%). Moreover, a recent large-scale study shows that half of Bipolar-I sufferers also have BPD. I mention this because BPD mood changes are often mistaken for bipolar mood changes.

 

I am not a psychologist but I did live with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found several clear differences between the two disorders.

 

One difference is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days.

 

A second difference is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours).

 

A third difference is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action.

 

A fourth difference is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry.

 

A fifth difference is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly. If the BPDer is the "acting out" type, she will lash out with verbal abuse. If she is the "acting in" type, however, she will punish you with icy withdrawal and passive-aggressive behavior.

 

Finally, a sixth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. This lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Moreover -- and I learned this the hard way -- when a person does not trust you, you can never trust them because they can turn on you at any time -- and almost certainly will.

 

If this discussion of BPD traits sounds very familiar, you can read more in my description of such traits in Rebel's thread at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3398735#post3398735. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to point you to good books and excellent online resources about BPD. Take care, Frenchman.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Downtown

[frenchmanfl]

Thank you all so much for your responses. I am hurting now more than I was when I wrote the original post.

 

Carhill, I didn't want my message to be miles long so I didn't get into my 20 year marriage, because it too was very painful.

 

After all of the research I did because of my ex-girlfriend, it suddenly dawned on me that my ex wife had severe anxiety too. Fear of abandonment etc. I knew she was anxious but I didn't understand the depth or the severity of what she was going through, symptoms besides worry.

 

My ex had a very and was without a doubt ocd. I was the one who maintained the house and dealt with her need for perfection. Not out of cleanliness but rather her desire for the house to be perfect, just in case anyone stopped by. She also had a vicious side and she went straight for the heart all of the time.

 

I retaliated with venom only four times in our marriage, not criticisms but rather, " I am done " or after my son was born " if it wasn't for #### I would be gone ". She cheated on me four times in our marriage. Fear of abandonment pushed her into the arms of other men. I said them and never retracted them. I recognize now the impact those statements made. I refused to mock her so these were the only painful things I was ready to inflict but I didn't appreciate how they flipped a switch in her head and the die was cast.

 

I forgave because I was also guilty of neglect, this was many moons because I spent the last 7 years being a perfect Father and husband, until she hurt me so badly with her comments that I repeated the last statement again. She found someone else and that was it. End of marriage !

 

My point to all of this is, I can weather every storm, except infidelity. In my ex wife's case the infidelities were very slow building and I felt some blame, and this was my wife. I forgave and she forgave too.

 

In my ex girlfriends case, she just came out and said that she wasn't willing to commit. She didn't say because I want to date others but she was leaving that door wide open.

 

So I have lived 20 years with a very complicated woman and am able to cope with verbal tirades etc and now that I understand where they are coming from... In fact in yesterday's conversation I brought up some of the things my ex girlfriend had said to me (I remember everything and even surprised her many times about very minute details that she had mentioned . Her response was " wow you remember " ) .and even told her that I lived with this kind of thing for twenty years, it doesn't phase me. Her response " not my problem " ( up until the original separation she repeatedly worried that I would go back to my ex at some point, she cried one night saying she had been through that before and felt it was going to happen again...I had no problems re-assuring her repeatedly or on any number of other insecurities she exhibited ).

 

In no way am I saying that it would not be a very hard challenge but when you fall in love, which I know I am with this woman... there is so much I don't want to get into. What is critical is the fact that she is cognisant of her bad behavior because she apologizes, as she did yesterday for her verbal mockings. In other words, not so oblivious that she doesn't care.

 

I do appreciate your council, but while the choice may no longer be mine ( only she can decide if she is ready to commit ) I am not ready to be done especially because we really never got a second chance. I want that. It's possible that I may decide later that I am not willing but right now...

 

Thank you Pens55, it is nice to have an inside viewpoint. I know she knows what she is dealing with. While it was never discussed she mentioned both ocd and depression. Neither really registered with me until later on, hence the deep research.

 

I have watched her cope with anxieties unrelated to the relationship Cognisant Behavior ( can't remember the rest ) but I saw her mind working and mouthing and as mentioned above her ability to apologize etc. She mentioned her therapist ( with no context ) but money is tight...I don't think she is medicated and so she is coping with whatever ammunition she has, but I know that when the mind turns over the thought process seems completely real for anyone suffering from these heartbreaking illnesses. What they think at the time they believe is what is true. I know I can't change that.

 

I also brought up the seven year marriage, in my original post because it proves she is capable but what I didn't highlight where comments she made that she has always been 100% faithful and loyal to her lovers, she even mentioned it yesterday, which is why her refusing to commit is her way of ensuring that she isn't seen as unfaithful.

 

It is hard not to respect but does nothing for my pain.

 

Despite her hyper sexuality, which she did raise numerous times because I simply don't have the energy to make love 6 times a day, I don't believe she is uber promiscuous, but if the options are open, it's inevitable.

 

In fact she was not as adventurous in bed as I would have wanted. I wanted play she wanted to go straight to it. But in my research I found an explanation for it. A husband of an ocd wife explained that he learned that what she really wanted was for him to orgasm so that she felt wanted and desired, that her own pleasure was secondary, so despite his desires ( which I have to ) to pleasure her first he learned that this was not the objective. His wife wanted to fell desired to address her own self worth. Heartbreaking that anyone would feel that way.

 

I am spilling more out than expected, my apologies but I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe I can cope with it all, provided there is commitment.

 

Exit...I actually cried at your response ( I am pretty raw right now...I do love this woman. I even went over the many things that I felt were complications but there is so much in common beyond the superficial. We are not the same people nor do we think exactly alike but....).

 

Thank you so much for both writing in such detail and for providing me with the confirmation I needed. I had to know that it was both the right thing to do and that it sent the right message.

 

I am a very sensitive person ( artist ) and when I love I love very deeply but I also have standards that I both adhere to and expect from the people I love, whether they be lovers or friends.

 

I stand my ground and have banished friends for betrayals. These standards are not arrogant, excessive or self indulgent, they are based on trust and loyalty.

 

Your response provided me, not with hope necessarily ( although this is what I need so much right now ) but with the confirmation that by setting limits on what I would accept was the correct course of action and even more importantly at a critical juncture.

 

That if I had taken the other route, which was my greatest conflict, that it would have sent the wrong message. That she could do whatever she pleased and still count on me being there as her rock.

 

Thank you as well so much for being so kind as to champion my reaction but also for not taking the " yeah screw her you did yourself a favor, move on " route. Those kinds of responses, while well meaning, don't take into account the depth of the emotions being felt by the one reaching out. It is possible that this would be the final outcome but when someone is reaching out is because they are deeply in love and in pain.

 

One of the things that makes me think she will be impacted by removing myself is that her enamor for me went far beyond simple infatuation. When she was bestowing beautiful praise on me, she went into intelligence, style, finesse, class, sweetness, artistry. She said once " thank you for bringing romance back into my life. I almost forgot it existed ". She also said " you are the coolest person I know ", not because I wore cool clothes or had swagger, which I do -) but because she exhibited some pretty shocking behavior and said some amazingly shocking things in my presence, but none of it ever phased me. She would become extremely self conscious shortly after and become so anxious. I would express that she shouldn't worry, that I didn't care one bit, that it never phased me. That I didn't judge nor would any of it change my beautiful perception of her. I diffused several situations with people we struck conversations up with at the bar, she would say things that could have made things very tense but I would step in and smooth things over so that no one, including her had a reason to be embarrassed or prickly. I was the soother. Yes we both drink and yes I know, not good. We never reached the stage of mutual self reflection. I was hoping to.

 

My love for her is founded on many of the same things, her intelligence, her resilience and so much more. In other words, there was a tremendous amount of respect. So not just giddy love.

 

Because I didn't advance sexually on her until I was ready she worried that we were going into the " friend zone ". I told her that I was immeasurably attracted to her but wanted it to be the right time but also that the foundation of a true relationship IS friendship.

 

I know that I have instilled trust in her, that is hard to do with people who suffer. I could get into that but I am rambling. How possible is it for her to find that elsewhere ? I wonder.

 

Thank you exit for confirming that I did the right thing. I so needed that confirmation because I think I managed to tell her that I didn't want it to end but that I have a backbone and that my actions could prove, should she ever come back, to instill a greater sense of respect.

 

Wow I could not have wished for more insightful, kind and understanding responses from all of you. You have given a very heartbroken man great comfort in a time of need. Thank you all !

[frenchmanfl]

I miss knowing she is in my life right now, but has this loss even phased her ? The crushing question without an answer.

[frenchmanfl]

I hadn't read and didn't acknowledge your fascinating and insightful post. Thank you so much for going into so much detail. I am so grateful to all of you. One can do an enormous amount of research and while the symptoms are the same, each person's story has different components and I needed to have feedback on my story, so again thank you all.

 

Your bringing up BPD as a possible option caused a great deal of reflection, because I did a lot of reading on that disorder too. As I read each difference I agreed with every point, until the fifth one. It could be a matter of degrees rather than a negation, but what I felt from my ex was the irritation rather than the no holds barred blackness that you describe. Whenever she would go at me, which by the way was only the few times she felt cornered, which basically was whenever I actually addressed the relationship.

 

We spent a few days apart after the workmen incident but I called and we hung out the whole night, which consisted of basically a sweet start followed by our sitting at the dining room table. It started with her recounting all of the stories about her ex's, one in particular which was never a boyfriend but rather one whom she said she had such a tight mental connection with but who betrayed her by marrying without telling her. The rest and most of the conversation was her berating me, like a school marm about my failures during the workman episode. I knew enough to just sit there and listen and apologies without begging or pleading. I just realized this was huge for her and it was easier to calm her than to argue. She thanked me and was genuinely appreciative that I listened the entire time.

 

A tense night that was only further flamed when she asked me " so tell me about Lynn ( my ex wife ), is she beautiful " I was so taken aback by the sudden question that I responded with a " yeah but not on the inside ". She repeated the question but I didn't want to discuss my ex wife with my current girlfriend, I didn't have the same compulsion to put everything out on the table. So I said " what do you want to know ? " This sent her reeling " well if I have to ask " " If you don't want to talk about it just say so " I explained " I am just not as open as you ". This was a mistake because it caused her to think I was hiding something which I wasn't. I have no interest in my ex wife to the point where I didn't want to talk about it with the new love of my life.

 

Anyway, the point of all of this is that while she clearly has a tipping point where she loses her cool but it is not ultra vicious or maybe it's because I am so accustomed to jabs like these, I don't take them as such.

 

The key though is that often times she expressed either thankfulness for my reaction or apologized for her own behavior. But...I have also never come across someone with such rigid rules and codes. It only took me one time to register them.

 

I have thought BPD but I know that intrinsic in this disorder is a complete and utter lack of guilt or ability to apologize for anything. Even yesterday she called to apologize for things she had said in our first conversation.

 

It makes me wonder if she doesn't suffer from rapid cycling bipolar rather than BPD. I can't know and it's very possible that there is an intersection.

 

Difference six is another interesting one because this could be at the root of it all, because she has raised the issue of my needing to re-instil trust, but for infractions that were not malicious in their intent. The workman episode and the not moving in with her so early but allowing my friend to crash on my couch. It must be noted and I addressed this yesterday that the " let's move in together " desire came before the workman incident, which she retracted when we got back after a few days where she said " maybe the moving in together idea was not a good idea " in other words she herself pulled it off the table. The key here though is that it wasn't until weeks after that my friend moved in. So yesterday when I had my first jab at addressing an issue I didn't knew existed except for recognizing that she had asked me several times after he had moved in " so how is #### doing ?, how are things going " I didn't read it then..., I made sure to note that she had retracted the moving in offer before my friend moved in so which options was I to choose ? It put a chink in the armor, although it was not my intention to do so but rather to express that I was a thinker not ready to roll over.

 

There are many similarities between the two disorder but I have read some scathing descriptions by professionals on BPD and the foundation of those descriptions was a complete callus disregard for anyone but the person with BPD. No remorse, no guilt, nothing. And this was absolutely not the impression I got from my ex. She barked at me once because she walks fast and I am chill. We had strolled beautiful for an hour but suddenly she needed to get home fast..worry about her dog, a sudden panic attack, who knows but she went from relaxed to stressed. I was to relaxed to recognize it so it was retrospectful in nature. The key though is that she apologized for barking and said I shouldn't take it personally. She mocked my slow walking but again was clearly apologetic for her reaction.

 

I am not sure if all of this contradicts the possibility of BPD.

 

What stood out the most was the rapid mood swings, one minute we were cuddling watching a movie, the next she was pushed up against the side of the couch, all clenched up and suddenly " I am going to bed, good night " with a little peck, right in the middle of the movie.

 

There are so many other little things.

 

I don't know what it is but I do know it has possibly cost me the woman I love so deeply. All of these illnesses are heartbreaking and my compassion for those who have to live in their heads with so much anguish has been altered forever. My consciousness about things like this has been amplified exponentially. I never paid it any mind, a close friend had depression, while I never mocked or belittled, I never understood. Thirty years later, I wrote to her and expressed my deepest regret for not understanding. She is bipolar too.

 

Knowing is both a blessing and a curse because one does end up almost feeling mentally confused but at the same time grateful for the answers to the behavior, obviously more so when you wrapped so tightly in the life of someone who suffers from them.

 

Thank you downtown, again for such kind and detailed insight, for taking the time to outline everything you did. My final comment is an expression of how deeply sorry that you lost your love of 15 years. In the same way you had to let go, as I did yesterday, we suffer the loss maybe more because it's not about having fallen out of love but rather that the pain ended up surpassing the love, which never faltered. I am not there yet, by any stretch but years like this, not sure if I could do it. That you stood by her for so long and did so much research and participation means that you gave it your all. I haven't had that chance yet but am trying. At the moment, I can see 15 years, but as mentioned before, not if it includes infidelity. I suspect as I did with my wife, I have it in me to forgive once or twice in this duration, especially when it is fleeting but who knows.

 

Every single response filled with such kindness and insightful feedback. I honestly questioned if I should not have posted in a forum that was directly relevant to the mental illness's. How happy I am that I chose the love shack. Fact is that it was where I briefly turned to during the nine months I tried to rescue my marriage. That was a mere 3 years ago, so cannot believe I am in pain again but so thankful I turned here.

 

Amazingly kind. I will use all of this insight one day when I am the one helping another.

[frenchmanfl]

Revision to last post : " I hadn't read and didn't acknowledge your fascinating and insightful post DOWNTOWN "

[frenchmanfl]

Last post for tonight...to " exit "...thank you for bringing up the balance of power issue because I do feel more empowered. If she does decide she is ready, I now feel I will have the right to, while very gently, make clear certain stipulations before I will agree to reconcile. I feel stronger as a result so thanks again.

 

I am putting the horse way before the cart but it helps whichever way things go.

 

Bonsoir a tous !

[Downtown]

As I read each difference I agreed with every point, until the fifth one. It could be a matter of degrees rather than a negation, but what I felt from my ex was the irritation rather than the no holds barred blackness that you describe.

Yes, I noticed in your description that there was no mention of strong verbal abuse, which usually is one of the hallmarks of a BPDer. That's why I observed "If she is the "acting in" type," you will rarely see the verbal abuse and outward hostility. Instead, as I noted, "she will punish you with icy withdrawal and passive-aggressive behavior." The cold withdrawal seems consistent with the push-away behavior you described.

 

I mention these "acting in" BPDers because they are so uncommon that it is difficult to find information about them online. I am aware of only two good articles by professionals. One is by therapist Shari Schreiber, who calls these folks "waif borderlines" and describes their behavior at http://www.gettinbetter.com/waif.html. The other article is by A.J. Mahari, who calls them "quiet borderlines" and describes them at http://borderlinepersonality.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/07/borderline-pe-2.html. Whereas Schreiber emphasizes the "I am just a poor little victim" aspects, Mahari's description stresses the way that these people punish their loved ones with cold withdrawal.

 

That said, I caution that -- if you are seeing neither "acting out" (i.e., verbal abuse) nor "acting in," then you are NOT seeing a strong pattern of BPD traits. I also caution that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if they are emotionally healthy. These traits become a problem only when they are sufficiently strong to undermine LTRs such as marriages and friendships. Hence, the traits must be strong and persistent to be a serious problem.

I have thought BPD but I know that intrinsic in this disorder is a complete and utter lack of guilt or ability to apologize for anything.... and a complete callus disregard for anyone but the person with BPD.

For low functioning BPDers, yes, that is typical. But, if your GF were low functioning, you would not be dating her. In contrast, high functioning BPDers are often capable of showing compassion, caring, and empathy. And they often are capable of sustaining that empathy indefinitely with business associates, casual friends, and total strangers.

 

None of those people are able to trigger the HF-BPDer's twin fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship to be abandoned and there is no intimacy to cause the frightening feeling of engulfment. Heaven help those folks, however, if they make the mistake of drawing close. Then they will pose a threat to both fears.

 

Even then, however, a high functioning BPDer will often show compassion, caring, and empathy to her close friends and loved ones. But she will be unable to sustain it due to her being emotionally unstable. When she is splitting the loved one "black," for example, she will have a total lack of empathy and compassion.

It makes me wonder if she doesn't suffer from rapid cycling bipolar rather than BPD.

Anything is possible but that is EXTREMELY unlikely. "Rapid cycling" in bipolar disorder exists when there are four cycles IN A YEAR. What you are describing, then, would be hyper rapid cycling. As far as I know, it is only seen in bipolar sufferers when they are slipping into psychosis from a hyper-manic state. My foster son, for example, is one of those rare individuals who could cycle in 15 minutes -- but he did it only when slipping from hyper-mania into psychosis.

I can't know and it's very possible that there is an intersection.

Indeed, if she has one of the PDs at a diagnostic level, the intersection is not only possible -- it is probable. Most folks who are diagnosed with one PD are also diagnosed with one or two other disorders also. Significantly, this does not imply that they have "multiple diseases." PDs are not "diseases." Rather, they are only groups of dysfunctional symptoms (i.e., traits) that therapists often see occurring together. Because the APA created too many groupings of these symptoms (called "syndromes"), they are consolidating the ten PDs down to only six groups when the new diagnostic manual is released next year (yes, BPD will be retained as one of the six).

I am not sure if all of this contradicts the possibility of BPD.

Nor am I sure. I am just trying to point you to some good information because I believe you are capable of spotting the red flags for the various PDs when you know what to look for. Before you graduated high school, you already could spot strong selfishness and grandiosity in classmates -- without being able to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could spot extreme shyness and fear of rejection in classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. You could easily spot the class drama queen -- without knowing how to diagnose Histrionic PD. Likewise, you can spot the BPD traits once you read about them. I therefore applaud your willingness to educate yourself about your GF's issues -- as well as your own.

[sugarmomma]

Your story mirrors mine except my ex is the male and I had to stand my ground when he started to become ambivalent about whether he wanted to stay committed after we had been completely for the 7 months we were together. We started to have some issues with his personality (perfectionistic, expected the honeymoon phase to last forever, didn't like to be told when he had done.said something hurtful to me) and he decided "oh I don't want a serious relationship/ need to work on myself, blah, blah, blah. Picked a fine time to tell me after we fell deeply in love. I think he expected me to start chasing but I simply stated that I respected his decision but he needed to let me go if he didn't want to commit.

 

We haven't talked since New Year's day and I miss him deeply. However, I know that if I had agreed to his terms which were to "just see how things go" I could have created a painful situation for myself.

 

You did the right thing and sometimes doing that may make others uncomfortable. I am recovering from codependency and I know that if I don't put my needs first no one else will.

 

Rock steady.

[Pens55]

I think too, there is the issue of ANY type of mental illness taking its toll on someone and them demonstrating negative actions.

 

For example, I know I am not BPD (well, I sure hope so anyway ), but when I had some bad depression/anxiety going on, I could probably exhibit a lot of the traits at a fairly high level. Why? Because at those times, my life sucked, I felt hopeless and just couldnt process why I was feeling this way. My point is that, people can react in different ways to different ailments and any of them can cause extreme problems in LTRs.

 

Im no expert, but I think that when the person becomes self-aware and able to identify (if not manage) their symptoms and triggers (with the help of therapy, meds, whatever one needs), they can most likely become capable of stability in a relationship. My anxiety and depression caused minor problems in my last relationship, but I was so self-aware I could say "listen, this isnt your fault, this is my anxiety talking." Im not always able to control my thoughts 100%, but I can at least identify them for what they are rather quickly, and run damage control.

 

I dont know what my point was going to be...I guess its that she will need to work to develop coping skills and quit running away from her fears.

[frenchmanfl]

Downtown, just when I thought I was out...they pulled me back in =).

 

You have once again enlightened me greatly. However, you also set off a brain wave that I completely forgot to address from your first post. One that was so relevant, which I can't believe I overlooked because of it's importance. The fact that BPD is typically a result of negative emotional impact whereas Bi Polar is a chemical imbalance.

 

Here is an interesting dilemma. I preface by saying that your incredible knowledge has left me without a doubt to your wisdom on the subject matter, so this question is one based on a desire to discuss rather than challenge...as I mentioned she is highly intelligent and clearly cognisant of her illnesses. Could a pointer be made from the fact that the way I found out she suffers from depression was her in passing statement that she needed to refill her depression medication ? If medication has no impact on BPD, would she not have already recognized or experienced the futility of taking medication ? or while likely an associated symptom, is depression a completely treatable symptom. I am almost wishing to hit the delete button because it is likely that these are completely separate but as I have already typed, I will let the question sit out there. Please disregard it though if I answered my own question.

 

With the above question dispensed with, your distinction between low and high functioning is something that I did not find in the admittedly briefer online research on BPD. I suspect I was dissuaded by the very harsh article on BPD which made me believe it wasn't a possible culprit. It was so visceral the disdain from this doctor for BPD sufferers. It was genuinely scary. Many of the lighter symptoms pointed to my ex but the sinister nature of the others had me saying no way.

 

However, now that you have enlightened me, added to this the clarification that rapid cycling bipolars only transition four or so times in a year, I am now sold that she actually suffers from BPD.

 

Your distinction between the two levels of functioning is actually a comfort, in a sense. As is your distinction between how she treats associates vs loved ones. Given what I have been going through and her feeling engulfed, I am going to assume then that I fall into the latter category.

 

Its a strange appreciation because on the one hand it means that I have suffered the consequences of being a loved one but comforting because it must mean that her emotions for me are at least heart based.

 

That rather than this treatment being the result of some selfish brat who likes to play with a man's emotions it is that her emotions are very real and that it is this reality that is causing her to react as she is.

 

It is almost perverse to think along these lines...she is abusing me because she does love me. Rather than she is abusing me mentally and emotionally ( by refusing to commit ) because she doesn't really care but that I am a fun little toy to play with.

 

At least in my mind, the distinction is huge. I must advise that this is not my attempt to find hope because it changes nothing, in terms of where I am today, but rather that it does provide a minute level of relief.

 

I am smart enough to know that there are always nuances to every person, regardless of the illness, that distinguish one person from another but you have solved the puzzle for me with the kind of succinct brevity that has me in awe. You have put all of the pieces of my complex puzzle together and it all makes complete sense now. Thank you !

 

I did not get into this much detail before, but she has lived her entire life with an abusive Mother and her Father was murdered on New Years day many years ago. I sent her a text on New Year's day to express my sadness on this most difficult of anniversaries. I said a few sweet things that I won't share, because it would diminish their importance. We ended up spending this day together and it was probably one of the sweetest days in our relationship. She even remarked that we spent Christmas and this day together, seemed to draw great importance to it.

 

What I am getting at is that her lifetime of trauma goes far deeper than past boyfriends and that between her Mother's treatment of her and her Father being ripped from her ( they were exceptionally close ) at a tender age and so violently clearly steers me even more in the direction of BPD.

 

She shared all of this with me, but I never asked for more than she was willing to offer and I was crushed with every new detail. It did make me think back to that horrible article who painted BPD people as devils incarnate, because one of the things he said was that BPD sufferers revel in seeking sympathy. That they use it as a tool to draw in their prey. My ex never talked too much about her Father but a great deal and repeatedly about her Mother but more in a she is crazy than a " poor me " way. She seemed like she was just looking for someone to talk to about it and I always listened.

 

I felt deeply saddened that this woman I loved had suffered so much in her life but never felt pity but rather an immense respect for her having managed to survive it all in one piece.

 

The fact is that her Mother and her siblings have no connection with her or she they. Having not met the other side, it could be that it was because she was is so complex.

 

May I ask, and if this is too personal please disregard, how you dealt with all of this for 15 years ? Did your ex put you through what I am going through ? and how did you manage to keep her for that long and get her to walk down the aisle if every fiber of her being fought against that kind of commitment ?

 

I suspect that it all fell down to your ability to establish enough trust in her.

 

Trust is actually what worried me most about my decision to put my foot down. That she would feel a betrayal because I abandoned her, even if she was about to take me down an abusive road. The calls of stand by her side from OCD forums kept ringing in my ears. Hopefully my decision, at some level actually instills a greater sense of trust for her in me. I am not able to make the connection right now.

 

Wow I could ask so many more question but I won't. Again I hope that I have not crossed a boundary and please ignore the questions if so.

 

You have been so kind, eloquent and insightful that it is hard for me to not wish to pick your brain all night long.

 

With that said, I can live without them. It is amazing that the very fuzzy picture has become so clear. I know you are not a doctor and neither am I but it's all too focused. Above everything is the confirmation of the mood swings from hour to hour. I was stuck on bipolar and confused because it stated long duration episodes and much clearer signals, when in my ex's case different moods came out of nowhere, as mentioned one minute she was lying on me on the couch in an embrace while watching a movie and half an hour later curled up in the corner of that same couch, clenched up like a fist. I am so dramatically saddened that anyone has to endure such pain and conflict within themselves.

 

Thank you so very much again Downtown and everyone else. What an enlightening experience you have all bestowed on me, at the very time I needed answers. The biggest one of where she is now remains unanswered I know, but to have clarity on the cause thanks to the kindness of such amazing people. I sit in solitude but feel like I am not alone.

[sugarmomma]

I have also been pondering the question of why I keep attracting emotionally unavailable/unstable people?

 

I would suggest that you not overly concern yourself with her illness/diagnosis but better yet focus on you. What is it about you that draws in these types? Have you ever been in a relationship with a emotionally stable/available healthy person? If not, that may be a beginning.

 

Just a suggestion that's working for me. Best wishes.

[frenchmanfl]

Hi Sugar Momma,

 

Up for a little smoke before crashing again.

 

Your question is a valid one and you bring up a good point. However, in reviewing every relationship I was in or any relationship I know, because often times it is I who have acted as adviser to friends whose relationships were in peril, there simply aren't any easy ones. Each comes with it's own games and one need only see all of the advise online for " normal " relationships to know that a great deal of this simply has to do with the dynamic between men and women.

 

For myself though, I suspect that as an artist, I gravitate to highly emotional, highly intelligent, interesting ( to me ) women. Often times they do end up being odd balls, but they are always very attractive. It's not conscious by any means. In fact, what is weird is that many after divorce guides warn against gravitating towards women that look exactly like your wife. My ex girlfriend could not look more different and that wasn't a choice either.

 

Let's also be clear that I am far from conventional. I can be a challenge myself except in matters of the heart, where I am very committed. But I am a complex character and to be honest, while never ever hoping for this kind of heart ache and difficulty, would likely get bored quite easily with a lady without challenges for me.

 

I wish I had a better explanation but I don't. Your question, again though is a very valid one and I wish my own tastes didn't drive me in the directions they do, but the heart is not something you can direct. It either loves or it doesn't. Given my heart is one that loves deeply, once I find someone it pulls me in hard.

 

In any event, while my radar is now more in tune, how does one really know what's in store ? Unless the lady ( in my case ) shows such obvious signs of serious complications, how can one tell ? They typically only surface after the heart has taken over, at which point you are hooked.

 

This could very well be the time where I am forced to find an answer to your question.

[frenchmanfl]

Hi again sugar Momma, once again for whatever reason I missed your first post. I am saddened to hear that you are suffering as I am. Did you and your man discuss marriage etc ? Note that my ex was the one who brought it all up, with additional comments such as " I thought I was never going to find someone ). In fact, much of what seems to have hurt her the most was that I wasn't prepared to move as fast as she was with the move in and marriage. Not fears of commitment on my part but just an inability to process at the lightning fast pace she was.

 

Besides the one point about my error with the worker, every other comment she made revolved around her belief that she either directly or indirectly expressed her desire for commitment but that I didn't react the way she wanted to.

 

I hope that your man turns around. I am, right now, going through the emotional change up between hurt and who needs it, her loss, I will find someone better. But I know that in a few hours my heart will break again. It will get better as time passes, I know. Do you know if your man suffers from any of the illnesses being discussed ?

 

What all of the answers I have received, though, has done is to confirm that despite the pain, I made the right decision. I am usually a very quick and firm decision maker. I don't question them either, but with love, wow is it different.

 

I learned when I was fighting to get my ex-wife back that one should never make such decisions without being prepared for the permanent consequence, that standing your ground and handing out decisions of break up or divorce or whatever, solely for the purpose of trying to motivate the other person is a bad move.

 

Fortunately in this case, because it involved the notion of an " open relationship " the idea of sharing with others simply wasn't an option for me. So it drove my decision making. If she had simply said " I am not sure I am ready to commit " without the " yes I dated others ", then I may not have had the same strength you did.

 

Please let me know how it goes and stay strong.

[frenchmanfl]

I do have one last question for everyone. There are some things that have been at her place since the first separation, things I do want back but that are obviously not so important that I asked for them back the first time. Do I hold off on bringing that up and asking for her to return them ?

 

She might even save me the trouble. When she broke it off with me, she tried to arrange a meeting where we would toast our friendship and exchange things. I returned one important item to her but my stuff was never brought up again. I left it at that because despite everything I wanted a sign of hope.

 

Should I hold off ? or is my asking for it necessary for me to make my point clear ?

 

Thank you all !

[Pens55]

I think you might want to hold off for a bit.

 

If you are truely wanting to close the door, you need to wait to communicate until you have no doubt in your mind that you can resist any attempts she may throw at you.

 

If you are holding out hope that she can change and come back to you, asking for your stuff is probably going to cause her to be angry or hurt her by sending a strong signal of finality.

 

And anyway, you'll probably hear from her again so Im sure the opportunity will present itself.

 

Just my 2 cents

[frenchmanfl]

Thank you very much for responding and for the clarity Pens55 ! I did reflect on the finality component and it's clear that I do not want to make that point.

 

I am riding the roller coaster, right now, of anger one moment and pain the next. The i'm ok one and I miss her the next. These are the breeding grounds of bad decision making.

 

As you have been kind enough to engage on this question, how would you council me if she does contact me about my stuff ?

 

After the first breakup, and my letters expressing interest, because of her pride she obviously wouldn't allow herself to say " I want back in " by saying so, so she found a very round about reason for contacting me again. Saying she had a lead to an opportunity. This could be her reason for contacting me " what should I do with your stuff ". A question that requires walking through a minefield.

 

I love this woman and do not want this to end, at least not without a true fresh chance at things, which I thought was happening this go round. If I say I want my stuff back, it sends the finality message, which I don't want.

 

At that point , if it happens, do I ask, " would you be willing to try this one more time and give it a real try, fresh ? "

 

If she does contact me, it might not be this that is used. Its all very hypothetical and it's very likely that I will know what to say when confronted with this situation but I thought I would ask while I have your kind ear, as it could be a long time before such a call takes place if ever.

 

Thank you !

[frenchmanfl]

Downtown, if you are still here, just read the " acting in " post by the Canadian author. Amazing stuff ! You truly nailed it. And this authors insight was invaluable.

 

With that said her comments did create a new worry because if the " acting in" traits revolve around trying to escape the abandonment fears and a pull for power, which is exactly what she is doing right now, giving me the silent treatment, does that desire to continue to fight against the abandonment ever end ? Will she ever wain and feel the loss and pain, if she is conditioned to put up defenses ?

 

I guess only time will tell.

 

Again thanks for the incredible insight.

[Pens55]

Hmm..if she contacts you directly about your stuff, thats a tough one...

 

Like you said, there are 2 ways to look at it. Either she really wants rid of your stuff, or she is just using it as an excuse to contact you. I really dont know what I would say in that situation and I definitely dont want to give you the wrong advice!

 

But I think that you may be able to distinguish from the tone of her voice. Or of course, she may just contact you for some other reason. But I would caution just saying "I'd like to have another chance."

 

I've been there, done that with a similar type of girl...you can get a range of responses like "no," "maybe eventually" or the placement of you into limbo. I think she will have to make her own decision without you prompting her - she has to realize that she totally screwed up and cant live without you.

[frenchmanfl]

Thanks again Pens55.

 

I remain stumped, except to maybe respond " if you don't foresee committing to me then please box it all up and...".

 

To be frank I am surprised she hasn't asked already. When she broke things off with me, it was first on her list of things to take care of. " let's meet so we can exchange stuff " This was on the same day she ended it.

 

It was delayed for scheduling reasons but then it simply became about one article that I had of hers ( a key ), my stuff was never brought up again.

 

This time nothing ?

 

As is typical, grasping at signs and desperate for answers that really no one can provide, at least in terms of what will/could happen.

 

Just have to wait and see.

 

Thanks again !

[Pens55]

Yeah, its a tough one to be sure. Maybe someone else has a good idea, because I dont want to steer you in the wrong direction.

 

Wouldnt it just be nice if there was a "forget about her" switch in our brains? haha

[Downtown]

BPD is typically a result of negative emotional impact whereas Bi Polar is a chemical imbalance.

Yes, in general, the Axis I disorders (e.g., bipolar and OCD) are more treatable with medication because they have more of a body-chemistry component than do the Axis II disorders (e.g., BPD and OCPD). Another difference is that, generally, the Axis I disorders are ego-dystonic and the Axis II disorders are ego-systonic. That is, the Axis I disorders like OCD are so radically different from the individuals normal way of thinking that she recognizes something is very wrong with her.

 

In contrast, the Axis II disorders like BPD are so consistent with the distorted way a person has been thinking since the age of 3 that the BPD traits are invisible to her. This is why people with Axis I disorders usually will seek treatment and those with Axis II do not. A person with OCD (Axis I), for example, will know that her compulsive thoughts are meaningless and wrong. She therefore will seek treatment.

 

A person with OCPD (Axis II), however, is convinced that her compulsions and obsessive need for perfection are perfectly normal -- that everyone else is sloppy and wrong. This is why folks suffering from OCPD and BPD rarely seek treatment or -- if they do -- rarely stay in it long enough to make a difference.

 

That said, there nonetheless are rare exceptions. I have communicated online with nearly a hundred BPDers (some as young as 16) -- all of whom are so amazingly self aware that they know fully well that they have BPD. My ability to meet and communicate with so many of them, however, is not an indication of their prevalence -- but, rather, of the miracle of the Internet for bringing folks together. Those folks are so rare that, in my private life, I've never knowingly met anyone like them. Further, I note that most of those "self awares" -- despite their amazing level of self awareness -- still lack the ego strength needed to remain in therapy long enough to make a real difference.

If medication has no impact on BPD, would she not have already recognized or experienced the futility of taking medication? or while likely an associated symptom, is depression a completely treatable symptom.

Yes, you answered your own question. Because BPD causes associated depression and anxiety, those two side effects are usually treated with meds even though the BPD itself, being a disordered way of thinking, is untouchable by meds.

 

Given that you already knew the answer, I mention this only to observe that therapists are quick to list the "diagnosis" as one of the associated Axis I disorders (e.g., depression, PTSD, or OCD) -- all of which are easily covered by insurance. However, they are loath to list BPD as the diagnosis even when it is warranted -- for many reasons I've explained in other posts (one is the lack of insurance coverage and another is the risk that a BPDer's behavior will actually worsen when she hears that diagnosis).

 

This is why, when you said your GF had been "diagnosed" with OCD and depression, I encouraged you to do some reading and to see your OWN psychologist to obtain a candid view. Relying on the advice of your GF's psychologist during the courtship is as foolish as relying on the advice of her attorney during the divorce. Like the attorney, her psych is ethically bound to protect his sick client -- even if you occasionally show up at some of the meetings.

 

I learned that the hard way because, after taking my exW to six different psychologists in her weekly visits for 15 years, I first learned about BPD on the Internet -- just the way you did here -- after we had separated. Not one of the psychologists would tell me the truth. Indeed, the last one -- whom we saw for five years at the end of our marriage -- refused to tell me what was wrong with her. Every time I asked she simply said "I don't believe labels are useful."

 

On my last meeting (right after I had just gotten out of jail and was angry), I was very insistent about getting "a label" for the woman who had filed false charges against me. The psych conceded, grudgingly, that my then-W suffered from a "thought disorder." Duhh! You think??? Yes, that is exactly what BPD is (a term the psych would never use). When I read books like Stop Walking on Eggshells, they read like a biography of my exW's life. She had been sexually abused for years by her own father when she was a child.

I was dissuaded by the very harsh article on BPD which made me believe it wasn't a possible culprit. It was so visceral the disdain from this doctor for BPD sufferers. It was genuinely scary.

I frequently refer newbie-Nons to the forum at BPDfamily.com which -- like most other "Non" forums -- is single-mindedly focused on helping codependent Nons escape from the toxic relationships they are trapped in with BPDers. Because the Nons can see nothing but the wonderful qualities of their BPDer loved ones, those websites understandably focus only on the negative aspects of BPDers.

 

One result is that those website paint such a totally black picture of BPDers that they put to shame the BPDer's black-white thinking (which they are so quick to criticize). Another result is that, on reading the material at those websites, you are left wondering how any man in his right mind could possibly fall in love with a BPDer.

 

But, as you and I know all too well, BPDers have many wonderful qualities that are so intoxicating -- especially to caregivers like us -- that many Nons are willing to remain for years in the toxic relationship (just waiting to get one more fix of the intoxicating highs). Moreover, HF-BPDers often do well in demanding caring professions such as nursing, teaching, and psychiatry. For example, the Canadian therapist you like so much (A.J. Mahari) is a BPDer who underwent years of treatment.

 

I find that, generally, HF-BPDers have a childlike immediacy and purity of expression that imparts a warmth and passion -- that otherwise is found only in young children. My exW, for example, was remarkable in her ability to greet complete strangers with such warmth and grace that they were immediately at ease -- and, within a half hour, were feeling that they had known her for a long time. Further, my experience is that HF-BPDers generally are a lot more fun to be around -- at, say, a party. In the 19th century, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow wrote a poem describing a little girl -- a description that pertains to BPDers like my exW. He wrote,

There was a little girl, who had a little curl

Right in the middle of her forehead,

And

when she was good, she was very, very good

,

But when she was bad she was horrid.

I have suffered the consequences of being a loved one but that is comforting because it must mean that her emotions for me are at least heart based.

Yes, they are heart-based. At the websites targeted to us "Nons," the question everyone most wants answered is "Did she really love me or was it all fake?" And they are divided on the answer, with many believing that BPDers cannot love.

 

My experience is that this negative view is so very wrong. BPDers are able to love and, indeed, can be very caring individuals. Yet, because their emotional development was frozen at the level of a four year old (if they have very strong traits), they are only able to love like a very young child does.

 

How bad can that be? Not so bad, is it? After all, you don't see parents run screaming away from their young children just because they know that "I love you" really means "I desperately need you to love me." No, that is not gawd awful. On the other hand, it is an immature type of love that falls far short of what is needed to sustain a marriage of two adults. For that reason, no emotionally healthy adult is willing to settle for that impaired form of love in a marriage partner.

 

Further, if your GF is a BPDer, I believe it would be a mistake to think of her as being "herself" while splitting you white but not when splitting you black. Instead, she is being herself in both states. This means her love for you is there all the time, regardless of whether she is in touch with it or not. Yet, because she so frequently loses complete touch with those good feelings, her conscious feelings toward you -- though very intense -- are very fickle and transient too. This is why it is often said that a BPDer's feelings are "a mile wide and an inch deep."

 

It also would be a mistake to think that her perception of you is less distorted when she is splitting you white. Instead, it likely is equally as distorted as when she is splitting you black. I say this because, when you are being split white, she is projecting onto you all sorts of wonderful attributes (i.e., an ability to make her happy and fix her) that you cannot possibly have. She uses such "magical thinking" to temporarily escape her pain and feeling of emptiness. Hence, if your GF really is a BPDer, her perception of you is seriously distorted nearly all the time. The important question, then, is not whether she loves you but, rather, why you are willing to settle for such an impaired form of love.

I prefer that rather than this treatment being the result of some selfish brat who likes to play with a man's emotions ... her emotions are very real....

Yes, if she were totally unable to have loving and caring feelings for you, she could not be a BPDer. Instead, she would be a narcisist or sociopath (i.e., Narcissistic PD or Antisocial PD).

It is almost perverse to think along these lines...she is abusing me because she does love me.

No, if your GF really loved you in a mature way, she would not be abusing you. Mature people do not abuse the people they love (with rare exceptions). Hence -- if she is a BPDer -- it is because she can only love you in an immature way that she is abusing you. It is the sort of abuse that four year olds regularly dish out to their loving parents.

 

More accurately, I would say it is because her emotional development is so stunted -- and her ego so fragile -- that she finds it very painful to be loved by you. Strictly speaking, then, it is this pain (i.e., the scary feeling of engulfment) -- not your love per se -- that causes her to push you away and abuse you. This is why BPDers both fear and long for intimacy. On another forum, a "Non" once wrote that BPDers feel the same way about intimacy that vampires do about seeing a sunrise: they both deeply long for it but feel it will be their death when they do.

She has lived her entire life with an abusive Mother and her Father was murdered on New Years day many years ago.

Most abused children do NOT develop BPD. Her childhood abuse therefore does not imply she has BPD. On the other hand, such abuse GREATLY raises the risk for developing that disorder. In a recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults, 70% of those having BPD reported that they had been abused or abandoned in childhood.

Her lifetime of trauma goes far deeper than past boyfriends....

If your GF actually is a BPDer, you cannot rely on anything she says about her past BFs unless you can verify it first hand. Because BPDers typically are convinced they are perpetual victims, they usually bad mouth all the exBFs.

How you dealt with all of this for 15 years ? Did your ex put you through what I am going through?

It is typical for caregivers like you and me to hold on forever. We mistakenly think that, if we can only love her enough -- or figure out what we are doing wrong -- we can restore her to that wonderful human being we saw at the beginning. What happens, then, is that the BPDer usually walks away from the caregiver after about 12-15 years. As the years go by, she grows increasingly resentful of his failure to make her happy -- an impossible task. And her fear of abandonment may increase as she sees her body aging.

 

Although it is common for the caregivers to feel like they are losing their minds, I was spared from that pain. I knew from the beginning that she had a mood disorder of some type, which I mistakenly thought was bipolar. I had been successful in weaning my bipolar foster-son away from the psychiatric hospitals. It took me 12 years, but I succeeded. I mistakenly thought I could repeat that success with my college sweetheart, whom I had not seen for 27 years. One day she called me up and we eventually started dating. She had been my "first love" and I quickly fell back in love with her. After all, I had thought for nearly 30 years that she was my "soul mate."

How did you manage to keep her for that long and get her to walk down the aisle if every fiber of her being fought against that kind of commitment?

Generally, HF-BPDers do not have an aversion to getting married. On the contrary, they are so impulsive that they often want to get married within a few months of dating someone. My exW, for example, was ready to get married the day she moved in with me. Because of her mood problems, I put it off for another 4.5 years -- until I realized we had been living together that, under our state laws, we were already in a common law marriage.

 

So we flew to Maui and got married on the beach at sunset. With BPDers, the pre-marriage period is usually full of lots of sex, passion, and romance beyond anything you've ever seen in a movie. It was mostly idyllic. The best time of my life. And she was the most beautiful woman I had ever dated in my whole life. Gorgeous! And she simply adored me. What's not to like?

I suspect that it all fell down to your ability to establish enough trust in her.

No, no, no. The trust lasted only during the first six months because her infatuation held her two fears at bay. As soon as the infatuation evaporates, the trust is gone ... except for sporadic periods in which she would split me white again.

 

Those periods became spaced further and further apart -- but occurred frequently enough to give me a "fix" of the addictive high of being her savior once again (if only for a few days). Keep in mind that, except for the infatuation period, BPDers typically are incapable of trusting you or anyone else for any extended period. And, because trust must be the foundation of any good LTR, the relationship will quickly become toxic following the marriage.

Trust is actually what worried me most about my decision to put my foot down. That she would feel a betrayal because I abandoned her, even if she was about to take me down an abusive road. The calls of stand by her side from OCD forums kept ringing in my ears.

Trying to build trust by tearing down your personal boundaries -- and not enforcing the few boundaries you have left -- is a quick and certain path to disaster. If your GF is a BPDer, she will be unable to trust you no matter what you do. A person who is unable to trust herself cannot trust others either. I therefore applaud your wise decision, Frenchman, to walk away and take a firm stand.

Again I hope that I have not crossed a boundary and please ignore the questions if so.

Like I said, you are an excessive caregiver. It shines out brightly from everything you write. You are such a gentle and caring man. I'm afraid that, like me, you have so much empathy that it is extremely difficult for you to know where "you" leaves off and "your GF" begins. I therefore believe that Stop Walking on Eggshells will provide you with useful information about building stronger personal boundaries. That said, I must admit you are far better at it than I am. After all, you got out at the end of a year and I walked away after 15 years, after my W had left me. By "left me," I mean she had me arrested on a bogus charge of "brutalizing her" (while her sister and our grand daughter were sitting behind a closed door in the next room). When I got out of jail 3 days later, I found that she had obtained a restraining order barring me from my own home for 18 months -- the time it takes here to process a divorce.

I know you are not a doctor and neither am I but it's all too focused.

Given what is at stake, if you are determined to pursue your GF -- as seems evident -- I would encourage you to see a clinical psychologist to obtain a candid professional opinion. I note, however, that even when strong BPD traits fall well below the diagnostic level for "having BPD," those traits can easily destroy a marriage and make your life miserable. The relevant threshold, then, is not the diagnostic level but, rather, what you are able to tolerate and still be reasonably happy.

I am so dramatically saddened that anyone has to endure such pain and conflict within themselves.

Me too, Frenchman. I wouldn't wish this awful disorder on my worst enemy.

At least in my mind, the distinction [between real love and fake love] is huge.

Yes, the distinction is huge when you are raising a four year old. It is very comforting to know that the child really does love you sometimes, albeit in a very immature and limited way. When you are looking for a marriage candidate, however, it is a distinction without a difference. It doesn't matter whether she loves you in an impaired way or, rather, not at all. Either way, her love falls far short of what is required to sustain a marriage.

 

I therefore am hopeful, Frenchman, that you are very mistaken about her having strong BPD traits. I am especially interested in hearing what your judgment is after you've read Stop Walking on Eggshells. If your GF has many strong BPD traits, that book should read like a biography of her life. I also am interested in what you think after reading about Avoidant PD traits. Given her lack of verbal abuse and acting out, Avoidant traits may play an important role.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Downtown