Did I do the right thing ? Broke up with someone I love

[frenchmanfl]

Downtown, I am truly at a loss for words, as it pertains to the amount of time and caring you have bestowed on me. There is simply no question that you too are an extremely sweet and caring man.

 

I was devastated to hear what you went through in the end, that your ex would hurt you so dramatically. It is amazing that you still have such compassion. I believe another similarity between you and I is an internal strength and resilience.

 

As I know I mentioned in a previous post, it is highly likely that I would have held on ( not that I am not right now but with the boundary line established ) if I hadn't asked about the dating thing. That was a course of events I was not capable or ready to tolerate or accept. However what keeps me hoping is that she does commit, has numerous times said " make me an honest woman " " there is no ring on this finger therefore..." this was her reasoning during one of our last conversations.

 

I wish I knew what to think about the level of anything she suffers from. The intersections are quite blurred between illnesses. The child like qualities are definitely there in how she behaves sometimes. She would great me at her door, with such a childlike " hi " raised to her raised to her tippy toes and use terms like " yay " in a text when I was coming over. But then the following morning she could be as cold as a school marm and so serious and mature. When we slept I would wake up in the morning and she would sometimes be very angry because she felt I was pushing her off the bed. One morning I got that alien has taken over look for split second and responded, well you keep moving away when I want to be close.

 

I absolutely know she takes control of herself because I have seen her almost explode at the smallest infraction but reel herself back in and provide a measured response. One morning when she invited me over last minute I had forgotten to bring my running shoes ( she has admitted to working out being her way of controlling her brain ) and she said " let's go work out " I told her I had forgotten my shoes said I didn't expect your call " she went dead silent, went to the bathroom, I went to work on my laptop she came out and simply said ok, I am going to work out, you can stay but maybe you should go. I left and said I would keep my running shoes in the car that way...

 

The hardest part of all of it is that she absolutely sounds so coherent all of the time. I can see the switch and it does happen in an instant, but it was almost always when a unwritten rule was broken but again it was so clear that she had some measure of control.

 

Yes one wonders why I wouldn't run, but while there is no question it is wonderful to feel so adored, there are so many things we have in common, that go way beyond adoration etc. Commonalities. We both love to cook and in difference to my ex-wife with my GF, we could sit together and watch cooking shows all night, whereas I could only do this alone with the EXW. As a musician and DJ ( extra curricular ) I have such specific taste in music. I am so specific it's silly. So few people I have ever encountered have ever been able to pull out a CD book where I had much interest. With her, she could pull out CD after CD and I was floored at how exact it all was. Yes there were odds and end CD's that were not my thing but 90%. It would be a silly thing for anyone as into music as I am.

 

A very obscure Dj on this coast came to town and we both went to see him spin and we both in heaven. It was an amazing night.

 

One of our commonalities is the fact that we are both white but both have soul ( as in the groove kind ). In fact she commented multiple times about how she loved how much soul I had, that I could slide around a dance floor with the best of them. Unusual for a white boy of 43.

 

Then there is the fact that when she was expounding on what I had to offer, she would got through a laundry list, that I was the complete package, intelligent, classy, sensitive ( one she made a clear point of saying was a trait she loved in me ), a loving Dad, traveled, compassionate. I could go on but the point is her caring for me does go beyond just " hey this guy is really cute and sexy and fun ".

 

I expanded on all of this to clarify that my passion for this woman goes so far beyond simply the, albeit addictive child like side of her that showered me with adoration. While I feel compassion for what she has gone through and what she must endure, the compulsion for me is not to coddle or save but rather to be the man that finally treats her right. Not in the savior way but the " I will treat you right and never hurt you " way.

 

I am a realist and never expected the giddy thing to last and I know that she has to want to help herself. I want a mature loving caring supportive relationship. Maybe that is not possible because her emotional development could be impaired but sometimes she comes off as more mature than I.

 

This is what is killing me about the thought of losing her, that there is just so so much there. A woman with whom I could share so many things with that I couldn't with my exw.

 

It's all very convoluted, which is what makes it all so hard to process.

 

Why would she be willing to give all of this up ? Because I screwed up on one occasion with some worker and because I wouldn't move in as fast as she wanted to and allowed a friend in need to crash on my couch. That I didn't recognize that her giving me her spare key was a sign that I should have seen as a commitment when all I thought ( as she explained it was because she had a tendency to lock herself out sometimes ). These were the main components of her arguments to me on the phone. It all seemed on one hand rational on the other reasons so minute and based on assumptions because she didn't vocalize the latter two issues before that day.

 

It's also key to note that because I got upset about her saying she had dated a few times, she said " are you bipolar or something " Your overreactions are silly calm down. I mean throughout the 7 months we were together, time after time she would utter comments that spoke of all of the illnesses discussed here. Triggers, therapy ( " you might need it " directed a me ), I think your bipolar, your being passive agressive. This girl knows her stuff about mental illness.

 

Another moment that was exceptionally strange was the second night we hung ot after " getting back together " I took her to the bed and laid on top of her ( which made her very uncomfortable...cornered ) I got off of her and laid on my side. I said " I want us to communicate as a couple, I love you, we didn't before " in the space of a blink she was curled up back to my stomach like a little child. It was the weirdest thing. I loved that moment but it was surreal.

 

I just don't know what to think at this point. I know, without question, that she has all kinds of things going on in her mind. However, once again in your response you further clarify, as you did with the " in " versus " out " personality, that there are degrees of BPD.

 

It is also important for me to mention that she didn't simply tell me that her ex's where abusive she provided very real examples. She had one guy who would sit on her bed snorting line of coke while watching porn, while she laid pretending to sleep. I know she showed me all of the porn. She was selling it online and laughing about the fact that she was profiting from the pig.

 

The man she moved down here for, ended up getting a great job and proceeded to mock a scar she has on her face and saying that her accent from another part of the country was ridiculous and that she would be mocked on this coast. He ended up cheating on her. In other words she provided very clear examples. Having said that she also spoke of her ex husband and said he never hurt her badly, that he was just ended up being a bit of a freak.

 

You can see how it is all so confusing because there are so many blurred lines here but also many clear examples that point straight to BPD. The " acting in " has clearly been a mechanism used but I thought it was depression so I left her alone.

 

The other part that confuses me is that she was not completely self centered. When we talked she would ask how I was and offered advice on many things and did recognize the things I loved. It was never always about her.

 

Man I write all of this stuff and start to wonder if I am not the one who is suffering some illness.

 

Anyway, you have been so gracious and kind. Thank you Downtown. I gave myself today to obsess on this and then tomorrow I would relent. It won't escape my mind but regardless of any underlying psychosis and any confusion on my part, my ultimate reaction to her revelation that she was ready to commit left me with only one choice, to say I wasn't cool with that.

 

Thank you brother and once again, I am so sorry you had to endure such incredible pain. If you stayed for 15 years there too must have been so much more between your ex and you than simply those fleeting moments of giddy love or that you stayed simply out of a desire to stand by your wife and compassion. There had to be a whole string of commonalities. But the final betrayal was simply too much to bear. I hope you have either found or will find a new love that will benefit from your huge heart.

[frenchmanfl]

I found this amazing page on BPDFamily http://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206 have only watched the first video. Wow ! You have been such an educator on this site, I suspect you have already fwd this page to others but just in case...

 

Otherwise, I am now left frustrated again, because after the break up was over, I thought I had it all down on how to react because I understood OCD, but now I want the next chance even more because, while I know I will never get it all, that I now at least have a much large picture to look at.

 

I might never get it, she might have or will move onto someone else and be done with me. I won't let it torment me but...

 

Thought I should share.

[Downtown]

Why would she be willing to give all of this up ?

 

• Because I screwed up on one occasion with some worker and
  
• because I wouldn't move in as fast as she wanted to and allowed a friend in need to crash on my couch.
  
• That I didn't recognize that her giving me her spare key was a sign that I should have seen as a commitment ....
  

Frenchman, your GF's inability to trust you -- as is evident in the three situations described above -- is what scares the hell out of me. Regardless of whether she has strong traits of BPD, Avoidant PD, or OCPD, this lack of trust is a relationship killer. It will simply exhaust you, as it often did me.

 

BPDers and Avoidants do endless testing of your loyalty and love because they never acquired the skill, in early childhood, of seeing "object constancy." Unlike mature adults, they do not recognize that a loved one's personality typically remains stable and constant. Hence, instead of thinking that "Frenchman basically loves me but is having a bad day," a BPDer tends to conclude that you no longer love her or that you are trying to control her. The result is that, no matter how many loyalty tests you pass, your loyalty and love will be in doubt within another day or two.

 

My exW, for example, would get very upset if she caught me looking at another attractive woman for a half-second instead of a third-of-a-second. Or if, to avoid bumping into oncoming pedestrians, I spent a moment walking two steps in front of her on the sidewalk instead of being exactly beside her. Or if I adored her children or my foster son too much. Or if I spent too much time visiting my own relatives. Or if, when browsing in an antiques shop, I wandered off by myself to look at things she had not yet started looking at. Or if I talked on the phone with an old family friend who had gone to high school with me. And so on....

 

The list, you see, was endless. It simply wears you down and destroys the marriage. This is why you will often hear that trust is the foundation on which all LTRs must be built.

 

This lack of trust is not only makes you exhausted but also renders you absolutely powerless to assist your BPDer partner in any real way. You cannot help her because, regardless of what guidance you give, and regardless of the promises you make, and regardless of what sacrifices you make, she is incapable of BELIEVING you are being truthful.

 

I cannot tell you how exasperating and tragic it is to see your W drowning just 5 feet away from the pier -- struggling to stay afloat and to breath -- while refusing all the while to grab your outstretched hand. It's not that she is blind and cannot see your hand. It's not that she is deaf and cannot hear your pleas. It's not that she is paralyzed and cannot raise her arm. No, it is none of those things. It is her inability to trust.

 

The reason she is slipping away is that she is incapable of believing what you say. Likewise, she will not believe what the therapists say either. I cannot tell you how painful it is to see your loved one struggling like that, year after year -- always slipping further away -- even though you know exactly what she needs to do to save herself. Frenchman, this is why I find your GF's trust issues so frightening.

[frenchmanfl]

OK downtown, need your advice on how to handle this one. Just got a text from my " exgf " much quicker than I was expecting, but as expected on a random thing but one that was a serious worry for her. She is reaching out.

 

She has been smart enough to pick a topic that I know was very serious for her so I am stuck, not being able to ignore because it would be rude but...my final text to her was " call me if your ready to commit ". Obviously she is not going to charge back saying " I am ready now ".

 

I can't ignore it but believe I will just respond in the morning with a " very happy you no longer have to worry "

 

My on going saga, thought I would share. I will sleep on it but if anyone has any sage advice that contradicts my intended course of action or anything else to add...

 

Sorry to bore everyone...matters of the heart....thanks for putting up with it !

 

Bonne nuit a vous tous.

[Downtown]

Fenchman, we both posted at virtually the same moment. When you read my latest post, my response to your post will be quite apparent. I don't think you can ever trust a woman who is incapable of trusting you because she can turn on you at any time.

 

At issue, then, is whether she fully understands that her suspicions about you are unfounded echos in her brain (as would be the case with an Axis I disorder such as OCD) -- or, rather, she really does believe her suspicions to be true (as would be the case with an Axis II disorder such as BPD or OCPD, which distort her perception of your motivations and intentions).

 

As to your latest question, the issue is whether you established a personal boundary wherein you would go fully NC unless "you are ready to commit." If that is the case, you should enforce that boundary by staying NC because she clearly did not commit to a permanent relationship with you only. If that is not the case, however, you should use your own judgment as to what is appropriate. I just hope to high heaven that your exGF is not now working at your same place of business (as you were trying to arrange two months ago).

[frenchmanfl]

Hi downtown, too exhausted to read your previous post because I want to be clear headed. In fact, I just spoke with a friend who I believe could be going through the same turmoil and could not speak highly enough about you. In fact I am going to send her the link. I told her how enlightening you have been.

 

VIs a vis my exGF. Yes I did make it clear that I would not be friends nor would I entertain contact unless is was due to a change of heart. However, while I believe in NC, this is an issue that she faced that I cannot ignore. It scared her dramatically ( not something to do with me, although she did question if I might have done it and it could have elicited a " is he telling the truth " point of view.

 

I will respond in the morning but in the way I mentioned before. I willsimply acknowledge that I am happy she has piece of mind. I will not ask so " what turned out to be... " My answer will still close the conversation without seeming either childish or uncaring.

 

Again it shows how smart she is because if she had come at me with a " how are you ? " I would have ignored it. On this she knows I can't. It would be callous for me to not respond, but I can do so without compromising my stance. If she tries to continue the conversation I will clam up again.

 

No we don't work together, thank God ! I could get into her employment situation but won't because it is redundant but it only confirms many things about mental illness. With that said she has always managed to be self sufficient and she has run very successful small business and sold them off. So she is a survivor, another thing I have great respect for her on.

 

So very cool to have you as an advisor. Pity we couldn't have a drink or meal together. One never knows ! Thanks again ! Will return if there is an update worth providing and will read the other post in the am. My fatigue is so great that despite my eagerness to get to it...

 

Salut !

[frenchmanfl]

Hi downtown, have a busy day ahead but wanted to respond concerning the issues of trust.

 

I am torn on this one. On the one hand I have had an epiphanic realization that this IS 1000% to do with her trust in me. It was a theme in our discussions but didn't realize that anything I had done could be so egregious that it would elicit such an imbalanced mistrust. Red flag !

 

With that said, it is impossible for me to ignore that, while the workman incident seems to have stuck hard, on the other two issues I raised when I asked the original question ( ie. friend on couch and spare key ), the day I put down the boundary was the first time these had even been brought to the surface and they were answered with complete clarity, on my part.

 

Could it be that she absorbed my responses and at least had some form of realization that my reactions in both cases were completely innocent ? That she ran on assumptions of my motives instead of coming out and asking me why ?

 

I am left wanting to know if this is the case, which will be easily answered the next time, if there is one, she decides to let me have it. She clearly holds every infraction on a mental list.

 

Another thing that is tugging at me is that my exw, when we first started dating tried to play these same games with me ( seeing an ex while supposedly committed to me ), very early in the game. She too was terrible at lying, but short of one phone call, it took her 10 years to betray me but I was to blame, on account of hard neglect, partying til all hours with work mates, leaving her home alone ( I was 20 and just got my first serious paying job and her neediness got to me. I have harbored guilt for that. She worshiped me and I was mean. That was long ago ! My exw without a doubt has a mental illness. I almost forced her hand.

 

I changed long ago and don't have that history with my GF. There are no questions that my GF though has more pronounced symptoms but could her illnesses be to a lesser degree than your exw ? As mentioned, she moved here for her exh, a huge commitment and proof of loyalty and it was he that left her, cheated and was verbally abusive. Granted, maybe his actions were a result of having had enough of my GF's behavior, but I do know that when he moved down here he suddenly had a great job, lots of money which breeds all kinds of temptation in a city like the one I am living in. He also picked on her with criticism that she didn't fit in here and physical appearances. Not the signs of someone who was afraid but someone who became selfish and tired of the commitment.

 

Are her trust issues founded on having been betrayed by other men ? Something that could be rectified if I provide sufficient comfort. I can tell you that thanks to my exw betrayals, I am super sensitive to trust with regards to infidelity. This is not a symptom of an illness but rather purely experience based. I know she is cognisant of the issue of infidelity because on several ocassions she has iterated that she is true blue loyal to the core. This remains to be seen but...

 

On the last two " infractions " I don't have answers yet, but it is clear that there are warning signs because this workman thing should have been tossed in the history bin long ago.

 

The examples of your exw's over reactions do cause pause. I have already experienced very minute examples where I would say we would hang out, but that I had a few things to take care of and would call when I said I could make it down to her, give her a loose time frame. She would call me a couple of hours later nicely asking that she was kind of expecting me to have called her already BUT she would then apologize and say " I am just being needy. Please ignore me " I would then put her mind at ease and give her more specifics on when I was coming down. She has often remarked on her own neediness.

 

How do I tackle the fact that she recognizes her behavior ?

 

There was one event that I remember that actually hurts me now. We had gone to a tiny leather shop that had an entrance to the front counter that was so slim and it was summer so the sliding door could not remain open without letting all of the ac out. People were gathering outside. I went with her but remember stepping in but then choosing to walk away to allow customers to make it to the counter. I remember her hand reaching out to me, with an almost feared expression, as I turned and walked away but she said nothing. It didn't dawn on me until much later that she wanted me to stay to pacify her anxiety about being in such a confined space. It's an assumption but I am very aware of small details like this.

 

I keep going back to your distinction of degrees. If the chance presents itself for another try, only after she has confirmed her willingness to commit, I need to find out if she is evolved enough to manage most of her emotions and to determine which reactions are based on which illness.

 

The leather shop incident screamed of OCD, on the social level. Which illness is prevalent and is it possible that because of her more advanced age, could she have developed sufficient skills or through therapy ( because she has a therapist whom I believe she trusts, how often she sees them or when the last time she did is undetermined ) learned how to at least acknowledge to herself that her thoughts are unreasonable and how to cope with them ?

 

I don't know. What I do know is that she has broken my own trust with her stunt but if all she did was to play a little with fire, date rather than sleep around, which I doubt because she was calling me regularly at night, at a time when we were obviously not on solid ground, then I can live with this. My ex was very flirty and I am not a jealous man. I allowed her that space to play because I knew that she was loyal ( until I blew it ).

 

I am much more in tune and realize that she has to be watched and probably in large part due to your incredible council, I have grown a little cold in my heart. Tears were shed but I did let go a little. I am, however, not yet ready to give up because I am so informed, and at such an early stage.

 

Have no doubt, though, that I hear your warning loud and clear. In any event this text means very little. I will respond nicely but only she can make the call of whether she is ready to commit. I have to mull over these conditions, because this is not about me making unreasonable demands but rather gently taking the lead. If I sense she is still playing games, and it won't take long, then I will put my foot down again and likely not raise it again.

 

I am not all knowing nor do I have all of the answers, but thanks to yourself, in large part, and others responses, I do feel more empowered.

 

I will be back with any news and possibly for more advice... thank you for your worry and council Downtown. I do wish there was some way I could repay you, but hopefully my words have expressed my gratitude.

[Downtown]

Hello again, swaggering artist. Remember, today is the day you stop obsessing about your GF's problems so as to give yourself a break. I therefore will try to keep this note brief.

As an artist, I gravitate to highly emotional, highly intelligent, interesting ( to me ) women.

I would rather say that, as an Excessive Caregiver, you gravitate toward emotionally unstable women because your desire to be needed (for what you can do) far exceeds your desire to be loved (for the man you already are). By "gravitate toward," I mean you seek them out and can easily spot one across a crowded room. Unstable women are masters at projecting vulnerability, which is intoxicating "catnip" to caregivers like you and me. Indeed, your willingness to care for a needy, verbally abusive exW for 20 years -- never mind that you were too young to do a very good job at it -- almost certainly means that you have strong codependent traits like me.

Could it be that she absorbed my responses and at least had some form of realization that my reactions in both cases were completely innocent?

Sadly, it doesn't matter whether she "absorbs your responses." It doesn't matter that she eventually recognizes you are telling the truth. What matters is whether, as soon as you have convinced her of your innocence on one matter, she quickly replaces it with another groundless accusation a few days later. And yet another accusation a few days after that. It will wear you down and destroy the relationship.

 

Like me, you will find yourself spending $5,000 on fabulous vacations that are totally destroyed because you used the wrong tone of voice, glanced in the wrong direction, or layed a few inches too close on the bed. On top of that, you likely will find that, after she has fully accepted your explanations for three dozen allegations, she will bring all of them up again a year or two later -- claiming they never had been fully resolved.

 

As I said, the critical issue (IMO) is whether her allegations arise only from obsessive noise and mind-chatter that she knows to be false, as occurs with an Axis I disorder like OCD. If so, she may be capable of trusting you. If not, her groundless allegations likely arise from strong traits of an Axis II disorder like BPD or OCPD, which distort her perceptions of your motivations and intentions. Left untreated, strong traits of such "thought disorders" spell disaster for any long term relationship because it implies she likely is incapable of trusting you for any extended period.

in your response you further clarify... that there are degrees of BPD.

Yes, most folks mistakenly believe that BPD is a disease, like chickenpox, that you either "have" or "don't have." That confusion arises because, in every field of the medical sciences, a "disorder" is an identifiable disease. In psychiatry, however, a personality "disorder" is not a disease. Rather, it is only a group of symptoms that therapists have often seen occurring together among their clients. Like nearly all other human behavioral traits -- such as laziness, irritability, and compassion -- the nine BPD traits are universal. Every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of them, albeit at low levels if they are emotionally healthy.

 

At issue, then, is not whether your GF "has BPD traits." Of course she does. We all do. Moreover, the issue is not whether she has the full-blown disorder. That doesn't matter because, even when BPD traits fall well short of the diagnostic threshold, they can destroy a marriage and make your life miserable. At issue, then, is whether her BPD or OCPD traits are strong enough to make you unhappy most of the time. Although guidance from a professional will be useful, that is a judgment call you ultimately will have to make for yourself. And I am confident that, when she comes back into your life, you eventually will make the right decision, whatever that choice may be.

thank you for your worry and council Downtown. I do wish there was some way I could repay you.

Frenchman, there is no debt to repay. Like you and the other posters on this thread, I derive enormous satisfaction from sharing my experiences in a way that helps others. So our exchange on this thread is a win-win for all of us. Still, if you ever make it to Washington DC, I would accept your kind offer to chat over a cup of coffee. As my forum name suggests, I live downtown -- in the heart of the city. Edited January 16, 2012 by Downtown

[frenchmanfl]

Hi downtown,

 

I have had a very productive morning so have a few moments to obsess a little today. Not that I am as heartbroken today as I have been. The power has returned to my soul. No question I still love and want but...

 

Unstable women are masters at projecting vulnerability, which is intoxicating "catnip" to caregivers like you and me

 

The above comment made me chuckle because you are so right. In fact, it has been a mantra I have used whenever the topic came up about the kind of women I like, which was usually initiated when a friend would point out some overtly sexy woman that they were fawning all over and I would say " not my type...I go for the women who are more in the background, less obvious and almost always more beautiful without showing off " But your description is so much more apt. Basically I go for the women who are not as sure of themselves. I am not scared by assured women in fact, one criteria is that I like a sense of independence because I don't like to be smothered and because I obviously like the chase and can get bored.

 

I guess I do have codependency traits, founded on my strong desire to help people. I am the first to help someone out in a group if they have lost track of the topic being discussed ( it's over their head ) by providing extra explanations without directing it at them because I don't want them to feel embarrassed. I have even stepped in knowing that my GF might have said something offensive to someone by smoothing things over. However, I recoil very hard when I feel like I am being taken for granted or my trust is betrayed. I accepted it with my exw for reasons explained and because there was no doubt in my mind that once she said she was done with her flings she was. She wanted me, except on the last ocassion and when she realized that she still had me, she came back to me. So I am a caregiver but also have a hard side and can get very cold myself.

 

Very weird how you have encapsulated it though. Never thought about it like that. But you have me completely pegged on the type of women I gravitate towards.

 

You also, as expected, raise a very good point that if it's not this it will be that. I was focused on getting over this hump, failing to appreciate that even if these issues are resolved there will be countless others. But my ex was like that too. With that said, again as you so concisely put it, boundaries are critical. This is the first time in the entire relationship with my GF that I decided not to accept and to take action. Prior to this I allowed her to dominate because I didn't understand but I have shifted the balance of power. If she does finally come back to me ( have to admit that her reaching out after only two days was a huge surprise, I was expecting weeks ) and commits, I will always listen and try to manage how I behave around her. An example of how I have already adjusted was on the evening we spent watching a movie, she did, as she had done before go from super loving to balled up at the end of the couch. This time I didn't think twice about it, didn't stress that I had done something wrong, I just said, this is par for the course. She also suddenly before the end of the movie pulled the " I am going to bed " out of nowhere, again I didn't flinch, didn't take it personally, didn't over analyze. In other words I am learning. It was liberating. These minute events caused me such grief before I knew they weren't about me.

 

I have no issue with apologizing or not defending myself, soothing when being accosted verbally. I lived with it for 15 years of my marriage. It had an impact and I fought back on occasion. But I am now " in the know ". Believe me, I know that it seems like it is going to be much more frequent and much worse with my GF. This is clear. I will not say I am prepared or can handle it, because of what you have been through. In fact you sound even better than I, given what you went through with your step son. You are an amazing man and it is hard to digest that you were repayed as you were.

 

One thing I am comforted by with my GF is she has no kids and won't have any. Having kids involved is what rips your heart out and shreds it right in front of you.

 

I appreciate your comment regarding how I make my choice if she does come back into my life. You can't know how much you have helped me, not only in identifying my direction but also confirming that my decision to set boundaries was the right one and that I needed to shift the balance of power. Who knows what could happen. I am a caregiver but I also have my limits. Verbally she has already thrown some pretty serious jabs at me and I didn't allow them to be absorbed. I think my exw almost had me trained to take them and now that I am aware of what I am dealing with and not to take any of it personally...

 

I am also seeing a pattern of " the wave " and not to react. With that said, what your ex put you through in the end was colossal but your strength is evident because not only did you endure coping with her but you helped your step son for all of those years only to have your heart ripped out. Yet, here you are strong and sane. You have my complete respect ! I believe there are strong caregivers, like you and I, who endure and the doormats, who are no lesser people just gentler in nature.

 

I may not get that new bite at the apple but I will not give up yet. There may come a point where I see that it's not possible to sustain but I am now so educated thanks in large part to your incredible wisdom that I won't be going in blind. Knowledge is three quarters of the battle.

 

I think it's important to note that problems between men and women are universal. Women store information and release infractions years after they were perpetrated. " Normal " ladies go cold, hold out sex, scream and express dissatisfaction with their spouses daily. Many times we men are to blame. at 45 I am in a much better trained ( for a woman ) and much more sedate. While I love people, I have a very small group of friends, none of which are here. I live a lot in my own head so I don't need a lot of external stimulation. Maybe I am a good candidate for someone with an expectation that I always be around. Who knows ! ( I am laughing right now about how much more information I am giving out then would ever be requested...on this I have changed. I used to keep things very close to my chest, although I think it's the web interface that changes people and allows them the freedom ).

 

It's important to note that my GF has said that she sees a light inside me that I need to let it out. My ex made me very self conscious about being naked because towards the end she was grossed out by it. My GF has made me less self conscious. While I handled all of the abuse, it made an impact so my GF is also helping me grow. There is a lot of give !

 

Anyway, you get the picture =)

 

If I ever get to DC, rest assured, I will look you up. I am in Miami, so if you ever come down with your new love...

 

We will chat again I am sure. I am either at the end of this relationship or the beginning of anew chapter. Either way I have learned so much these last few days. Have you ever thought about doing what that Canadian lady does ? actually make money helping. I can't believe I got all of this incredible advice for free. Lucky me!

 

Thank you !

[carhill]

Unstable women are masters at projecting vulnerability, which is intoxicating "catnip" to caregivers like you and me

 

I had to laugh at the simple truth of this. TBH, as it seemed that was 'all that was left' in my neck of the woods, I had to travel long distances to find anyone stable *and* single, with my exW being the closest at 60 miles away and I'd say she was probably the most stable single woman I met in what I consider the 'local' area where there was any mutual attraction at all.

 

Good insight and a canary worth remembering. Thanks

[Downtown]

I had to laugh at the simple truth of this. TBH, as it seemed that was 'all that was left' in my neck of the woods, I had to travel long distances to find anyone stable....

Yes, it is funny, Carhill. Whenever you see a half dozen guys screaming and running away from a pretty woman, you will see Frenchman and me running in the opposite direction, LOL. We are so attracted to the wounded birds because, above all, we want to be sorely needed. Typically, we get that way in childhood, being raised by a mother who -- perhaps married to an alcoholic like my dad -- relied too heavily on us for emotional support, making us the "little man" of the family. In that way, we grew up too fast and became the little fixers of the family. The best description of this process I've ever seen is Shari Schreiber's http://gettinbetter.com/needlove.html.

[Pens55]

Hope Im not sidetracking the convo here...but I believe I fit the same mold as you guys. My ex had an extremely difficult life (traumatic childhood, hard adult life..the works). Im sure I missed/ignored red flags at the very beginning. And toward the end (the first time), she opened up as much as she possibly could about childhood abuse and went hysterical. Once I calmed her down, she was crying and said "I am so sorry, I am going to hurt you someday"

 

How much clearer can you get?

 

But in my infinite wisdom, I said "I love you for exactly who you are and youll never have to hurt me because I will always be there for you". A couple months later, she began distancing herself and finally ended it in a hysterical state.

 

My question is...do you think codependency can arise out of childhood abandonment/seperation issues as well? My reason for asking is, I had a very good upbringing in a good family. My only guess as to why I am how I am is that I was severely sick as an infant and spent long periods of time away from my parents in a hospital - this has been identified as a trauma that now affects other aspects of my life. But I wonder if childhood abandonment can manifest in both a "defensive/emotionally closed" type or also the "codependent/clingy" type - I'm just really not sure.

 

Thanks guys, both of you have been helping me so much!

[Pens55]

WOW Downtown, I just read the link you provided. So it appears that absence of a mother even in my situation (being seperated due to my illness) could possibly trigger this behavior.

 

I am a bit sad after reading it. While it seems that the contents of this article are hit and miss with me, the one thing rings true...the constant feelings of inadequacy and tying my self-worth to other's percieved need of me. I guess its hard to look at yourself in the mirror and see something that is damaged in this way. I always thought that I was just a really caring and good individual..now it seems that I am in no better place than someone who suffers from BPD...sigh

[Downtown]

I am the first to help someone out in a group if they have lost track of the topic being discussed....

Yes, and while you are speaking to a small group of guys who are standing, you likely are careful to position yourself in a way that creates a circle, so as to prevent anyone from feeling excluded.

But my ex was like that too.

Of course. This is why, if you eventually decide to leave your unstable GF, you will be at great risk of running right into the arms of another woman just like her. You and I love the intoxicating, passionate, romantic highs we can only get from emotionally unstable women (and from raising four year old children). It therefore is difficult for us "to settle" for an emotionally available woman. No adoration and love bombing -- and no fireworks going off -- during the first two months. We have to learn to be more patient and to value consistency over intensity.

Her reaching out after only two days was a huge surprise....

Like I said, if she is a BPDer, she hates to be alone because she needs someone to be her emotional anchor. This is why the #2 best-selling BPD book is called I Hate You, Don't Leave Me.

I have no issue with apologizing or not defending myself, soothing when being accosted verbally. I lived with it for 15 years of my marriage.

When you are living with a BPDer, being a "soothing object" will be one of your primary roles. Because a BPDer never grew up emotionally, she never learned how to do self-soothing to regulate her emotions. Yet, by providing that function for her, you will be harming her by enabling her, i.e., destroying her opportunities to suffer the logical consequences and thus never having to grow up. She therefore loses the incentive to learn how to do self soothing.

 

Your other big role, as I discussed previously, is to continually validate her false notion that she is always "the victim." After the honeymoon, you accomplish that task by always being "the perpetrator," the person she blames for every misfortune and on whom she projects every bad thought crossing her mind -- thus living guilt free.

Knowledge is three quarters of the battle.

Eventually, yes. But not until you have the several months required to convert that new-found knowledge into wisdom. Until then, it will have little impact on your choices and behavior. That means you have to get to the point where you FEEL it to be true at a gut level. You are not there yet. That is why, at this point, there is zero chance you are going to walk away from a sick loved one based solely on the knowledge -- i.e., mainly theories -- you've learned. For caregivers like us, doing such a thing is anathema. It goes against our religion, our family values, our sense of purpose -- indeed, against every fiber of our being. We therefore won't walk away until we strongly feel -- at a gut level -- it is the right thing to do.

 

Accomplishing that requires you to convince the intuitive, "inner child" in your mind that this new information is correct. This is a problem because, whereas new intellectual concepts can be learned in a few minutes, acquiring wisdom (i.e., altering our gut feeling) can take months, or even years. This is why the inner child lags well behind the adult logic. Significantly, for all human beings, this inner child makes perhaps 95% of our important decisions.

 

I was 50 years old before I understood that simple notion. And it took me 12 years to do it. What happened was that, for 12 years, I took my bipolar foster son to a weekly family group meeting with the psychiatrist who was treating him. Whenever the psychiatrist challenged me on something, I always had an elaborate well-thought-out explanation for doing whatever I had chosen to do. Never mind that what I had chosen was not working with my foster son and never mind that I kept repeating the same pattern year after year.

 

The psychiatrist was always greatly amused by my explanations. He would laugh and point out, in his kindly fashion, that my elaborate rationalizations could not disguise the fact that my inner child -- not my adult -- was calling all the shots, making nearly all the decisions. In any contest between the adult and child, he claimed, the child would almost always win. But I just could not swallow that concept.

 

Yet, after twelve years of his gentle rebukes, it dawned on me one night -- right as I was about to drift into sleep -- why he had to be right. My inner child, I suddenly realized, is the sole judge of what is fun and what is not fun. That decision is all powerful. The adult part of my mind will nearly always conclude that it makes no sense -- indeed, would be preposterous -- to do something, go somewhere, or date someone I do not enjoy. My adult logic thus nearly always has to end up in the lap of my inner child.

 

This is why learning about my exW's problem (BPD) and my problem (codependency) was the easy part. What was difficult was internalizing that intellectual understanding, i.e., transforming that knowledge into wisdom -- which required that my feelings catch up with my intellectual thoughts.

 

Simply stated, I had to persuade my child that my adult views of my ex's illness and my own codependency are correct -- an objective I have mostly attained because I've been working on it for the past five years. Had I failed in that effort, I would have remained stuck in a destructive pattern, repeating my past mistakes over and over, because it is my child who will be calling nearly all the shots.

[carhill]

My data point is a typical 50's-60's childhood in an intact family with traditional mother and father 'roles' as an only child. My exW used to call it 'Beaver Cleaver'. I was pretty independent from a young age, not like today's kids with parents taking them everywhere. Personally, I think the predisposition for a caretaker-type personality in my case was genetic, augmented by parental focus on doing for others.

 

Unlike a more typical co-dependent personality, I've lived alone most of my life. I enjoy people but don't feel the need for a constant companion. I think the 'doing for others' plus lots of love in the love bank from not constantly being drained has been attractive to the broken women I've encountered. I wasn't really a factor, as a person. I had what they needed.

 

The good news is, with psychological help, I can more quickly identify these incompatible persons and avoid them. Wish I had gotten it 20 years ago. Such is life. I don't envy people trapped in situations with such illnesses. I had enough of it taking care of my mother for eight years. Crazy makes crazy. That part of life is over.

[Downtown]

So it appears that absence of a mother even in my situation (being seperated due to my illness) could possibly trigger this behavior.

Yes, Pens, it is my understanding that different children can react to the very same trauma in different ways, depending on how the child interprets the event, and on how the child's genes predispose her to react. BPDers, for example, have strong codependency traits, in the sense that they are very dependent on their partners because they need an emotional anchor. Yet, they are very different from caregivers like Frenchman and me, who also are "codependent" in the sense we derive much self esteem from our being caregivers.

 

Keep in mind that, because the psychiatry profession has never agreed among themselves that "codependency" is a disorder, it is not included in the diagnostic manual. And there are no plans to include it in the new manual that will be released next year. It is unlikely to be included in our lifetime because most folks in our culture are convinced that self sacrifice (for others) is the only sure path for getting into Heaven. Hence, there is no generally accepted definition of what "codependency" is -- and you will find wildly different definitions of it online.

 

Indeed, the world's largest national association (CoDA -- Codependents Anonymous) panders to the diverse views of its local member groups by including every trait known to mankind in its list of "codependent traits." They list 55 such "traits," which is about what you will get if you sum up all of the traits listed for all ten personality disorders in the DSM-IV. For these reasons, I generally try to avoid using the term "codependent" and, instead, prefer to say "extreme caregivers."

I always thought that I was just a really caring and good individual..now it seems that I am in no better place than someone who suffers from BPD...sigh

Whoa!!! Slow down, Pens. You're jumping to the wrong conclusion. No psychologist with a brain claims that being a caregiver is wrong or is a weakness. Certainly, Shari Schreiber is not saying that. Her point is that, although being a caregiver is desirable and good, you must be careful to maintain sufficient self esteem that you take care of YOURSELF too.

 

Hence, it is possible to have too much of a good thing. Likewise, it is possible to have too little of a bad thing. Selfishness, for example, is a trait that is usually considered to be bad but, at low levels, is absolutely essential to your survival and to your emotional well being. This means that achieving that well being requires finding the right balance in your life for the various traits.

 

The nine BPD traits, for example, are routinely derided and bashed on a hundred websites as being a gawd awful characteristic. At low levels, however, all nine of them are essential to our survival and emotional well being. This is why they arise from the primitive ego defenses we all use during childhood -- and occasionally all through adulthood -- to protect ourselves.

 

Splitting, for example, is a BPD trait you use every time you daydream. Moreover, when you are suddenly startled, your brain is hard wired to instantly shift to a splitting mode where you are only capable of doing black-white thinking. This is why, when you are in a crosswalk and look up to see a truck bearing down on you, your mind is only capable of thinking "jump left" or "jump right." As I said, these traits have survival value at low levels.

[Pens55]

My god, this discussion is so enlightening. So in a sense, it almost seems like BPD and codependency exhibit almost polar tendencies in a lot of facets of relationships (they always say opposites attract lol).

 

Looking back on it now, I really did take comfort or enjoy my ex needing me. I knew I would always be there for her and I felt totally wanted. When she showed more independence, it really threatened me...abandonment. And I also thought about it tonight, and I realized that I have extremely low self-worth, so I guess that being needed in a replacement for confidence.

 

This really hit me tonight: My ex has all of these negative qualities, and objectively, I have many good ones (good job, intellegent, pretty stable, attractive..though thats one I cant really say with any confidence)...yet I feel she is too good for me. I guess my basis is on that she "loved" me or "I felt needed," I based everything off what I thought her feelings were...not happiness within myself. This is a huge epiphany for me, but I still have to work to fully believe it.

 

I am at the point where I am telling myself that I will not contact my ex and I know the reasons why I shouldnt. But I have not yet convinced myself to call it a definite end and say there is NO chance. Sort of like, I wont stop my life, but I am willing to listen if she proves herself to me. But...its a cycle. Yikes..what a situation

[Downtown]

I based everything off what I thought her feelings were...not happiness within myself. This is a huge epiphany for me

Yes, that is an excellent insight. "Being dependent on another person for defining and establishing your own worth as an individual" is about as close as you can get to a good definition for "codependency." To be healthy, it is important to have high self esteem even when you are alone.

 

Significantly, even CoDA (which has thousands of member groups in 60 countries) does not define "codependency" on its website because there was nothing they could agree on. Instead, they provide that grocery list of 55 "traits" which, if I remember correctly, even includes a kitchen sink.

[frenchmanfl]

I am still here, just in case busy day, but a lot has happened. I did start to respond to what seemed to be a direction of discussion where the belief that having a " caregiver " nature was a negative.

 

I couldn't disagree more. I am spiritual but very much a realist, but I am proud of the fact that I have compassion. It does expose me to greater pain but is not exclusive to my partners. When I see someone else hurting, complete strangers, I feel it deeply.

 

This is not a weakness. Being self centered and only choosing to devote your time to people who meet strict standards, is weak.

 

Western and increasingly so Eastern societies have been leaning towards the " me me me " concept for a generation and one of the fruits of this nasty evolution is the belief that anyone who is compassionate is flawed.

 

My compassion has nothing to do with wanting to save. I was talking to a friend of mine just a couple of days ago because her partner suffers from some mental illnesses and we were discussing why we continue to deal with things, my answer was " maybe we were put in front of our lovers for a reason, because we are STRONG enough to cope and not run at the first sign of trouble, as so many others would ". I say this spiritually and not religiously.

 

There is something to be said for the wisdom of staying in these relationships and the certainty that pain will be part of the package, but I endured 15 of 20 years with my exw and it was all worth it.

 

I will never believe that my compassion is a burden or a weakness, nor are my motives ever about swooping in and saving anyone.

 

My ongoing saga continues with much having happened yesterday but I have a big afternoon ahead. I can't be sure if what happened was positive or not, but it was big. I did also want the above to stand on it's own. With that said these are only my opinions and not meant to either question of judge the beliefs of anyone else.

 

Be back ASAP because Downtown I would love your take...

 

A bientot

[carhill]

If helping or saving is deleterious to one's own psychological and/or physical health, it's unhealthy, IMO, just from the preponderance of the actual effects on one's psyche and body.

 

When I was caregiving, we called it 'caregiver crazy' and I noted all kinds of psychological and physical effects, most markedly depression and a weakened immune system. At one point, I had to seek medical help for hypertension and pre-diabetes. Today, I'm just as healthy (issues are gone) as I was prior to those eight years, and feel it.

 

Something I've noticed as well is that men with such 'caregiver' personalities are more verbally/emotionally expressive and don't generally exhibit the stoicism which is common in men, at least in my generation. We tend to 'network' more, a lot like women do. I noted this markedly in the men I came to know who were caregiving for their demented spouses.

 

Love within limits. That's my motto now.

[frenchmanfl]

I do see your point carhill, which is why I made the distinction, in my previous post between what is wise and what is weakness.

 

At 44 I am a bit younger than yourself. I am much more verbally and emotionally open, it is a quality that those who are close enough to me appreciate, but being this open has made me so much wiser. So much more in tune, which as you say is a quality most associated with women. Why ? well at least in part because they open themselves up to more pain. Running from the possibility of pain, which so much of life entails, robs one of an education like no other.

 

The situation that started this entire thread was about my decision to break it off with someone I love deeply. I am in no way inferring that I was some hero by doing so, but it took a lot out of me, hence my need for some council.

 

I completely appreciate and understand the physical toll it can take, I know there was a point where my ex's behavior had m in the docs office asking for prozac, but I also know that the entire experience, in the long run made me wiser and much stronger.

 

A final point I will make is that one only need read the very high level of intellectual dialogue that has taken place in this thread, all of whom seem to have this caregiver quality, to see that this is one very, well spoken, intelligent group of people. Maybe there is a link between intellect and the capacity for compassion or even better that our level of compassion has exposed us to so much more that it has expanded our intellect.

 

I agree that, as mentioned, being compassionate is going to result in more pain but that I would rather be like this and endure than remove the compassion in favor of saving myself from the agony. I suspect the same goes for you. This therefore makes us both stoic. I think of Ghandi and Mother Theresa, these were the ultimate care givers and will always be identified as stoic. It's all in the perceived definition of stoicism.

[Exit]

I did start to respond to what seemed to be a direction of discussion where the belief that having a " caregiver " nature was a negative.

 

This is not a weakness. Being self centered and only choosing to devote your time to people who meet strict standards, is weak.

 

I will never believe that my compassion is a burden or a weakness, nor are my motives ever about swooping in and saving anyone.

 

There's a fine line to be drawn here. Nobody is saying compassion or caregiving is a negative trait. But there are two main conditions to be mentioned here:

1- The caregiving that you give to others, be it strangers or loved ones, should never exceed the love and attention that you are currently giving to yourself. This is not selfishness or being self-centered, it's a simple fact that only when you are healthy and happy can you truly encourage health and happiness in others. And the quickest way to get drawn into a situation where you are putting more effort in on the behalf of others than on yourself is when:

1- The person is not actively participating in saving themselves. If you are being overly supportive to someone who is continuing on in their own destructive habits, it's a drain on your time and energy. Any time the level of effort is not mutually shared, once you're doing 51% of the work and the other person is doing 49% (which, in real life usually leans toward a more extreme division of 90% to 10%) it's not healthy.

 

There is also another distinction to be made between the types of problems someone has. Caring for someone with a mental or physical impairment that is mostly out of their control is much different than someone who is knowingly putting time, energy, and money, into something like a substance addiction. Much more slack can be allowed for someone who has an issue that they can't really control. But even in those situations, there is room for manipulation. If someone has a mental disorder and has been given a medication, yet they chose to be lazy and not medicate properly, that's taking a problem that they didn't necessarily ask for, and choosing to make it worse.

 

There is nothing wrong with being a caring and compassionate person, but there is no reason to become a martyr for something as simple as an interpersonal relationship. If someone wants to sacrifice their health and sanity to combat a problem that is plaguing the world, that's one thing. If your health and sanity is going down the drain simply to "care" for one person when there are billions of others out there who would not do that to you, then there's something abnormal about it.

 

Note, I am not saying you are guilty of any of these things, I'm not saying any of your caregiving efforts have ever crossed into the territory of being inappropriate. I'm just talking in a broad general sense, playing devil's advocate to your comments that compassion is not a negative thing. In some situations, there can be too much of a good thing, and you can love others to death, and yourself in the process.

 

Relationships are a partnership and could be compared to anything else in life where you are working in a team situation. If a coworker takes their first sick day in two years and you need to cover their shift for them, that's fine, you'd hope someone would do the same for you in the event that you can't make it to work. If someone is late or absent multiple days of the week, barely works on the days that they do show up, and is generally dragging everyone else down, they should be let go, instead of everyone else having to "care" for this person by taking up their slack. If someone occasionally dips below the level of acceptable behavior and others decide to pick them up, dust them off, and help them get back on their feet, that's great. It's the situations where someone dips below the normal level so often that they have their favorite reclining chair sitting there waiting for them, and everyone else is playing tug-of-war trying to get them back on the right side of the line, that it becomes unfair.

 

"Extreme caregivers" or those with codependent tendencies have almost no idea where this line needs to be drawn. We also have a very difficult time separating "self centered" from "self preservation". We get to a point where putting even a little bit of effort into our boundaries and our desires seems selfish, when it's really not.

 

You mention Ghandi and Mother Theresa as ultimate caregivers and this brings me back to the distinction I made above. These people were not going on hunger strikes or setting aside their own personal desires just for the success of one interpersonal love relationship they found themselves in, they were doing it to benefit huge masses of people and to combat injustice. Anyone who feels that they need to get themselves to the level of a Ghandi or a Mother Theresa just to be able to stay with the partner of their choosing is going off the deep end if you ask me. Like you, I have no problem being a compassionate and caring person, and I love that I know how to be, but I'm no Ghandi, and some days I would like my significant other to care for me as well.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Exit

[frenchmanfl]

Exit, your points are very well taken. It must be noted that, while I should have expressed this better, that my reaction was in response to a posters sudden feeling of sadness at the revelation that they were a caregiver and their belief of what that entailed. Downtown did a better job with his " Whoah ! Hold on a minute ! " =)

 

Your points about Ghandi and Mother Theresa were especially well taken, although while larger in scope, ultimately the foundation for why they did what they did, was a compassion for humanity and I suspect that they had some form of spiritual internal connection to their " flock ".

 

Self preservation, when one is threatened with serious consequences is not borne of selfishness, I agree completely, nor were my comments meant in any way to insinuate that any decision to escape after what I know are huge efforts on the part of the non's were defeatist. But rather that the impulse and desire to impart compassion is a beautiful thing, not something to be saddened by. If one gives up after being abused for so long, then there is heartache and sadness because you have to leave someone whom you know has a beautiful person inside, that is not being evil simply because of a black heart, even if they don't seek the medical help they need.

 

On the subject of their seeking help, I can say that, as a smoker I should have given up a long time ago but...the point I am making is that everything I have been told is that the road to recovery for a BPD is years of committed therapy, which is both hugely time consuming, emotionally taxing and financially draining. Despite their impact, it's not hard to empathize why such a commitment would be hard to keep up with. Having said that, I smoke therefore if I get sick and die, I only have myself to blame, so I guess using this logic, if someone with BPD doesn't get help, then they should accept the consequences which is people leaving them.

 

Forgive me, I am not being argumentative, I enjoy intelligent dialogue and obviously this is a subject that has become close to my heart. I spent four hours last night doing mental gymnastics with my GF ? I was absolutely exhausted and while I know she restrains herself, plenty of blows were delivered. None penetrated. But I can be frustrating too =).

 

Thanks for indulging me.

[Downtown]

I did start to respond to ... the belief that having a " caregiver " nature was a negative. I couldn't disagree more. ... Downtown I would love your take...

My take was expressed earlier in post #41. I agree with you, Carhill, and Exit. Or, if you're asking instead about your smoking activity, my view is that you should stop (hee hee, you opened yourself up to that one).

My ongoing saga continues with much having happened yesterday ... it was big. ... plenty of blows were delivered. None penetrated.

Frenchman, you tease us with "it was big" and "plenty of blows" but provide no details. We need an update -- when you have time, of course.

[frenchmanfl]

Hi downtown, very sweet of you to express the desire to want to know what happened. I actually wrote about it and then the power dropped and I lost it all. I want your take on it so thank you for opening that window for me.

 

I will return soon. I will say this, it was mental gymnastics.

 

I will be back promise and again thank you for being so kind. I am in the middle of something I can't get out of.