Did I do the right thing ? Broke up with someone I love

[Michael30]

Hi everyone,

 

How to keep this story short ? My ex as of yesterday and I were together for 8 months, with a month break in between. I know one asks, 8 months that's nothing...well it is a lot when deep love is involved.

 

I preface this with the fact that she has ocd / depression and likely is bi-polar. The former two admitted. Relationship started off with intense emotions and within a few months discussions of marriage and moving in. The latter is a key point.

 

She did break it off a couple of months ago. It was clear the pressure got to her and at this point in any relationship we should have been communicating better. I didn't know anything about OCD or depression prior to about two weeks before the break up. I educated myself more than most would and realized why I felt unstable because of the push/pull I was getting from her for many weeks. Madly in love one day, distant the next. Once I understood, the light bulb went off, but by then things had gotten complicated.

 

During the break, I sent her only two notes not dripping with sadness but rather expressions of a desire to try again, my knowing how I needed to handle things like space etc. Two weeks after receiving my second note, she calls. We catch up and say goodnight. The next day she calls and wants to get together, earlier than I expected. We do and have a wonderful day and evening together. Clearly tons of attraction and caring still there. We get together twice after this, both times her calling and asking. I wanted to continue to give her space to prove to her that I was not needy.

 

She continues to call, one night twice ( because I didn't answer. Not message left, both frequency and no message completely unlike her. I send her an email the next morning saying I crashed early because I had something important to do that morning and I would call. I did and we chatted. Again she called regularly and when I called her ( a couple of times ) if she didn't answer she would call straight back or cut into another call to say hi.

 

Then there was silence for a few days and I felt something was up. So yesterday I call and simply ask nicely, are you dating ? Her response, I did a few times, it was no big deal. I was shocked but reacted calmly saying I was happy for her and that I had to go. She said " so how are you ? " I apologized and said I had things to do. She refused to let me go and asked what was up. I explained I thought that we were working on things and that was respecting her call that she had to focus on work by giving her space, that I didn't realize that we were not committed. She then launched into me about two issues she has carried since they happened, one I was aware of and had apologized for profusely for ( nothing like cheating just a judgement error that she misconstrued as a sign of disrespect, a worker at her place and my desire to assist which she didn't want me to do ) and the second I had no idea about. She had asked me early on to move in with her and for certain reasons I said to her that I wanted us to move in under the right circumstances.

 

Two weeks later a friend of mine was desperate, broke and needed a place to stay and I offered my couch. I didn't realize it until yesterday when she brought it up but she was badly hurt by this thinking that I wasn't ready to move in with her but was ready to help my friend out.

 

I explained clearly on the phone yesterday why ( my reasons for staying here also stemmed from this place being close to my son and that I wanted access to him...she lives downtown, too far ).

 

She persisted on both of these points, said I never put a ring on her finger and now she just wasn't ready for a commitment, then she got angry and said I have to go...said ok cool. 2hrs later she calls back apologizing for her attitude etc, I said " so is this closure for you " she wouldn't answer. Hangs up. She calls back a few hours later, again apologizing but saying I still have serious feelings for you and an open heart but I am not ready for a commitment, bad timing. Said we should hang out ! There is more to it but this is sufficient.

 

An after we hung up, I sent her a text saying that I thanked her for her honesty and complete respected her viewpoint but that I couldn't share someone I loved ( I had expressed my love and desire for a loving relationship with communication and marriage in a previous conversation ) with other men. Said if she had a change of heart down the road, if neither one of us was attached for her to call me and we could see how things went. Closed with " I will miss you ".

 

That was last night...no response. I love this woman and would marry her tomorrow. To explain the connection and all of the things we have in common would take an hour. The last time we hung out, she said " I love hanging out with you. We cuddled and watched a movie that night and kissed " It was beautiful. I was happy. When I left her place she asked " when are we getting together again " I responded, you tell me. I was giving her space and trying to prove to her that I wasn't needy. She called me a few hours later and we just talked for an hour.

 

She feels safe with me and I know she loves me. I have been told she is afraid. She has had abusive relationships all of her life and been through a great deal. I understand the dynamic of ocd and the obsessive thoughts.

 

However, no matter how much I love her, I can't allow her think I will just be there, no matter how much I desperately want to be. Did I do the right thing by saying I couldn't be friends but also leaving the door open saying that she could call if she had a change of heart ? If she is on the fence, I couldn't play the well lets hang out and see while she would likely see others. I needed to gently put my foot down. She was talking marriage and moving in together, where it would happen and so on. I made some mistakes but...

 

A note she once told me that, the one time she got married, she ended up chasing after the guy and asking him to marry her. It lasted seven years so she can have a long relationship. He left her badly, cheated and mocked her. I have done nothing but be supportive, loving, gentle and sweet. I am 43 she 41 ( not spring chickens ). I look much younger and am a good looking, fit man, a responsible Dad, intelligent, kind to others and romantic but not with flowers but other deeper ways. In other words, in other words, somewhat of a catch, but I am also the opposite of a player. I love one woman for a long time, never cheat. I was with my ex 20 years until she cheated on me.

 

Did I do the right thing by standing my ground ? What are the odds she will realize what she stands to lose ?

 

Sorry for the long story, I am stoic but very sad. Prepared for it to be over but desperately not wanting that to be the end result. Some say that with ocd and bipolar, that you should maintain contact and make sure they know your there for them, that they do and say things they don't mean. She harbors anger for things that I didn't understand were so impactful to her, but for which I have explained and apologized deeply for and that I couldn't have known they would hurt her so much.

 

Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for listening.

 

Don't worry you'll be fine. It's all a part of the breakup-healing process.

[Pens55]

Hey guys, just wanted to check in and say hey. Love reading this thread, and its helping me so much.

 

See, you guys still get to be "extreme caregivers" to me I promise I wont be insensitive to your needs!

 

Here is a question for you guys, I am only 28, so I dont have enough experience to work this through on my own... How do you recognize when you have gone from caring, great bf to overly caring, needy caregiver?

 

Just trying to have some ammo next time I am faced with a relationship with someone. And also, how do you step back when you realize you are losing yourself for someone else?

[carhill]

How do you recognize when you have gone from caring, great bf to overly caring, needy caregiver?

 

For myself, when 'benefit of the doubt' crossed over into destruction of my own boundaries of health regarding equitable and loving behavior. When the attachment to another and desire for their love and approval superseded my own sense of self-worth. In essence I subjugated my will to their disease.

 

This dynamic can occur in any relationship, from family to lover to friend, just at different levels.

 

how do you step back when you realize you are losing yourself for someone else?

 

I recognize the emotions which signal what I like to call 'impending doom' and disconnect, generally without notice unless confronted. Each person handles it differently. IME disordered people generally have little empathy and are very manipulative so it doesn't really pay to 'talk it out'. I just disconnect them, ending 'care' for that particular dynamic.

[Dark Phoenix]

Ive read mainly the 3rd page of this thread and there's a lot of things I disagree with.

 

Frenchman, your exwife had GIGS, you married her young, she wanted to go out and spread her wings and come back and you wouldn't let her.

 

You're girlfriend that you were with WANTED attention, she wanted to be chased, what did you do, you ignored her and labeled her because you did not understand her.

 

One of the things people need to stop doing is labeling their ex's with some disorder of some sort. Why can't people just accept that they were incompatible?

 

Honestly, it takes a guy with a solid inner truth to maintain a relationship with someone you might consider crazy or borderline. Someone that has the ability to not take anything personally that their partner says and LETS EVERYTHING GO. These are true boundryless individuals.

 

Something I've noticed as well is that men with such 'caregiver' personalities are more verbally/emotionally expressive and don't generally exhibit the stoicism which is common in men, at least in my generation.

I disagree with this post, you have this backwards, caregivers are more verbally and emotionally reserved as they have a fear of "walking on eggshells" or doing anything to prevent the relationship from crashing instead of expressing themselves.

 

Downtown, I agree with your post on borderline traits, every person has all 9 of them. But most people can control them. I know insanely crazy women that probably could be diagnosed with BPD including my mother but she has been in a successful marriage for 35 years with a year a half GIGS hiccup

 

Instead of labeling other people, we should be focusing on ourselves. If a relationship doesnt work, we need to find something within ourselves to try and fix and reflect on to why it didnt work. It may just be that you were incompatible.

 

Frenchman has a LOT of issues he should be focused on instead of his ex and his ex wife (caregiving is not one of them either)

Edited January 18, 2012 by Dark Phoenix

[Downtown]

Instead of labeling other people, we should be focusing on ourselves.

DP, I agree that the focus should be on our own issues. Your advice, then, is very appropriate for the folks having strong personal boundaries. The vast majority of those people, however, simply walk away from the toxic relationships and don't look back. They rarely come to forums like LoveShack and pour their hearts out.

 

What we see a lot of on this forum are excessive caregivers -- like me -- who are trapped in toxic relationships because, having very low personal boundaries, they can't tell where "their problems" leave off and "their partner's problems" begin. People like me are so highly empathetic that the boundary between us and our partners is vague and ill defined.

 

It therefore is very difficult for us to see "our issues." On top of that, we are very resistant to the notion we are doing anything wrong because, after all, we are making continual sacrifices and are "only trying to help." Further, the notion of walking away from a sick loved one is anathema to us.

 

In light of these huge hurdles, it has been my experience that the quickest and surest way to show a "codependent" he has a problem is to first show him that his partner has strong traits of a PD (whenever that is the case). Once he is able to see HER dysfunctional behavior, it is only a small step for him to see -- by subtraction -- the remaining dysfunctional role that he has been playing (as an enabler).

 

Further, until the "codependent" caregiver understands how to spot the red flags of BPD and other disorders, he achieves very little even if he is able to break free of the toxic relationship. He achieves nothing because, absent an understanding of BPD, he likely will run right into the arms of a woman just like the one he left behind.

[frenchmanfl]

Dark Phoenix, it is interesting that you riddle your response with assumptions yet you didn't take the time to read the entire thread. My exw suffers from extreme anxiety and was having it treated.

 

My girlfriend has admitted both ocd and depression and has exhibited all of the traits of BP outlined by downtown and others.

 

I won't bother outlining them for you because you seem to believe that you are justified to interject with your opinions without having taken the time to actually read the totality of this thread. Making any effort beyond what I am doing is an exercise in futility.

 

There is always one in the crowd who jumps in with the strongest convictions about there pontifications who typically ends up being the least informed.

 

What is most amusing is that you express displeasure for my use of " labels " and the belief that I am jumping to conclusions, yet your post is nothing but one jump to conclusion. The pot calling the kettle black.

 

If you have no intention of being constructive then if I could ask you to please find another thread on which to share your expertise.

[frenchmanfl]

Pens55, At 28 you are at a great point in which to be informed. Being " in the know " though can be a double edged sword.

 

On the one hand it can be a blessing and on the other hand can result in assumptions.

 

Despite my belief that Dark Phoenix's did nothing but jump to conclusions, and worse yet admitted to not having sufficient interest to take the time to actually read the entire thread but more interested in espousing opinions, his / her advice is sound.

 

Being as informed as you ( and I ) now are, can be a detrimental thing because it can raise doubts when there should be none. So we need to take risks. Often times despite the pain, it is so worth it.

 

One of the key points made by Downtown is that we all of mankind exhibits signs of mental imbalances at one time or another. The capacity is all there. So please make sure that you don't rob yourself of what could be true love by backing away from a relationship because you might have seen glimpses of what seemed like this trait or that.

 

I am in no way saying that this would be your intention, nor does this address your question ( which Carhill answered perfectly ) it is just a " just in case ".

[carhill]

I disagree with this post, you have this backwards, caregivers are more verbally and emotionally reserved as they have a fear of "walking on eggshells" or doing anything to prevent the relationship from crashing instead of expressing themselves.

Tell me about your experiences as a caregiver. I was one, for a terminally ill person, for eight years. Also, tell me about fellow caregivers you know. Making blanket statements without support is disengenous.

 

Please note, in your response, the specificity of where the verbal and emotional openness was directed. Read this thread for clues. Thanks.

[frenchmanfl]

Hey downtown, the storm seems to have passed on my situation, or should I say, this storm. There will be others. After some passive aggressive moves on my ladies part, two nights ago ended with a three hour laundry list of breaches of trust expressed as character flaws with a nice dose of belittling.

 

It was almost surreal how things switched from dealing with the young child character to the disapproving disappointed adult figure. I recognize this is an inherent human trait when anyone is flustered and while these were not jeckle and hyde type changes they were pronounced.I could be reading into things but they don't bother me now. Before I understood it kind of freaked me out.

 

I would love to get into so much more detail about some of the things I have heard and seen but...

 

Fortunately, after 15 years of this kind of barrage from my exw, and a great deal of education, I hear only the underlying message and don't allow the firebombs thrown in for effect to penetrate. The underlying belief being that a lover would not spend three hours, of high tension, to express themselves if they actually believed all of the flaws expressed. this is especially true in such a young relationship.

 

With that said there were moments, in between, of serenity and lucidity where certain concerns expressed were justified and addressed. But as quickly as they came, they disappeared. =)

 

However, as though a switch had been flipped, the last hour ended with the conversation going from tirade to intellectual fun and suddenly pet names for me were coming out etc. The conversation ended sweetly but without conclusion or an understanding of where things stood.

 

I have never been through such mental gymnastics in my life. I was exhausted.

 

A key point, in reference to the entire reason for this conversation was her expression that she wasn't interested in playing the field ( I believe her and believe that she felt cornered when I expressed the word commitment but when I further explained that my use of this term only meant that we allow the relationship breathing room without the potential of other romantic conflicts and that I was not expecting her to walk down the aisle tomorrow, served to calm her nerves and she backed off ). She went on to say that she is not adverse to long term relationships or even marriage.

 

Trust is the key issue, getting past these infractions and the fear that if she commits her heart that I could let her down. I even expressed to her that I didn't cheat, steal, injure and tried, unsuccessfully to reason that a step back would provide ample proof that, in particular, the one sore thumb infraction was just a silly move and nothing more. To no avail !.

 

I suspect I will be apologizing til the end of time for this, until the next major breach replaces it, but it matters not.

 

It is interesting to note that on a few occasions I caught her out on some infractions of her own, as if I had not even mentioned them, she would revert right back to repeating that one workman infraction. It IS the fallback.

 

The one piece of information you provided that has not escaped me is that the balance between black and white will evolve. That, over time, the scales will tip further and further towards the black. And that there is no neutral zone.

 

I rested for the night and all of yesterday til evening without a word, because the dust needed to settle. She reached out to me and I provided a sweet response. I followed with a conclusion that I wanted it to work, but that we should take it slow, rebuild trust and I apologized for hurting her. Her response was sufficient for me to know that it was her desire too.

 

I don't know how to read all of it, is OCD the leader or is BPD ? What are the magnitudes of each. As we have never spent even 45 min on the phone in our entire relationship, four hours was colossal. It came across as huge purge, which had me exhausted and exasperated in the moment but completely fine the day after.

 

We shall see what the future holds.

 

The one thing I will agree with Dark Phoenix on is the undeniable need for self reflection. We do all have baggage. How I wish life could be easier. While it remains to be seen, I believe she might have been trying to play games with me with the dating others announcement, when it's possible she was testing me to see if I would man up. She has repeatedly said she needs a strong man. If I catch her doing it then I will simply start dating myself and give her a taste to see how she likes it.

 

Thanks downtown, you could and likely will see me again. I am likely headed for much more pain but screw it. I smoke, am 44 in a couple of weeks. I have maybe 20 years left. Why the hell not go down in flames ! LOL !

[frenchmanfl]

Quote:

I disagree with this post, you have this backwards, caregivers are more verbally and emotionally reserved as they have a fear of "walking on eggshells" or doing anything to prevent the relationship from crashing instead of expressing themselves.

I did want to touch on this too, not to belabor the point, to shine some light on how misguided this comment it.

 

I have been in corporate sales for 23 years. It is my job to be "on". I am the absolute opposite of reserved with my emotions, in fact because I am so open, I draw out others.

 

Until I had my son, I was the life of the party and did I party.

 

I am a artist, DJ and musician, have lived on three continents and have traveled the globe three times over, making friends at every stop.

 

This belief that being a " caregivers " mean that you are some meek, mousy doormat, is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. In fact, the notion of compassion REQUIRES one to be emotional open, not reserved.

[Exit]

Well I sincerely hope this chick isn't playing you, and it sounds like you don't even have much of a desire to keep your guard up ("might as well go down in flames"), but just watch out for yourself. I wouldn't put a single drop of faith into this promise that there will be no other "romantic challengers" while you figure things out. Gee where have I heard that one before... and then she banged some other guy. Just realize "working it out", "seeing how it goes", even with 4 hour phone conversations and apparent interest from both parties, is not the same as being in a relationship. The door is wide open for her to mess around with someone else and then say "but we weren't exclusive at that point". Defining things in vague terms will lead to vague results, either you're together or you're not, and at this point it sounds like you're not, and to people who can only think in black and white, that means in her world she is single.

 

If you want to go down in flames, more power to you. You comment on the good possibility that you're just headed for more pain, and you realize each time this cycle happens you are falling deeper and deeper into her BPD "black list", yet you're willing to let it play out. This points back to the caregiving discussion that most of this thread has been about... you seem to care for her, but do you care for yourself when you say you're 44, a smoker, and might as well get messed around with by some woman who can't decide. My question is simply... who is caring for you? If you think you've only got 20 years left, those years could be spent with the greatest love of your life and not playing blacklist/whitelist with a BPDer, but the choice is yours. The fact that you brought up smoking is very poignant here, both smoking and dealing with an unhealthy relationship are dangerous addictions that many people choose to do anyway. Like I mentioned before, priority #1 of being a healthy caregiver is to keep yourself healthy. You won't be able to care for anyone if you resign yourself to going down in flames, if you see your life as half empty and worsening every day, because you won't be here anymore. Caregiving can turn into a suicidal Romeo and Juliet story, giving in to just loving others until we fade away.

 

Maybe I'm coming across more harshly than I intend to, I wish with all my being that you are experiencing a true effort from this person to get her head on straight and repair the cracks in the relationship. I hope it works out for you, it's just that the dance of caregiver + BPD always seems to follow the same dance steps...

[carhill]

This belief that being a " caregivers " mean that you are some meek, mousy doormat, is probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. In fact, the notion of compassion REQUIRES one to be emotional open, not reserved.

I can see one possible example of such an 'appearance', and I'll explain:

 

When I was caregiving, I had to be extremely careful to both watch what I said as well as how I moved, should I upset the patient and her 'people' (the hallucinations). One wrong word and a ballistic missile went off. So, to a person watching in real time, I might have seemed distant and uninvolved and unaffected by the outbursts of vulgarity and cruelty. In reality, I was processing the psychology of 'agree and re-direct', with is SOP in such environments. So, in that regard, I could definitely have *appeared* to be emotionally closed and un-empathetic. In that narrow reality I was. It was a forced behavior borne of circumstance but in no way obviated my base personality. In fact, that base personality is what kept me in the role and engaged when another might have just walked away. It was only when I began to network with other caregivers, and especially men, that I better understood such dynamics. As an outsider, I would have been clueless. I always called the nurses and CNA's at the facility 'my angels' as I knew only too well what they dealt with every day.

[frenchmanfl]

Michael30, fortunately right now I am happy to say that this is not the case, however, only time will truly tell. However, thank you for the words of encouragement.

[Pens55]

Well I sincerely hope this chick isn't playing you, and it sounds like you don't even have much of a desire to keep your guard up ("might as well go down in flames"), but just watch out for yourself. I wouldn't put a single drop of faith into this promise that there will be no other "romantic challengers" while you figure things out. Gee where have I heard that one before... and then she banged some other guy. Just realize "working it out", "seeing how it goes", even with 4 hour phone conversations and apparent interest from both parties, is not the same as being in a relationship. The door is wide open for her to mess around with someone else and then say "but we weren't exclusive at that point". Defining things in vague terms will lead to vague results, either you're together or you're not, and at this point it sounds like you're not, and to people who can only think in black and white, that means in her world she is single.

 

If you want to go down in flames, more power to you. You comment on the good possibility that you're just headed for more pain, and you realize each time this cycle happens you are falling deeper and deeper into her BPD "black list", yet you're willing to let it play out. This points back to the caregiving discussion that most of this thread has been about... you seem to care for her, but do you care for yourself when you say you're 44, a smoker, and might as well get messed around with by some woman who can't decide. My question is simply... who is caring for you? If you think you've only got 20 years left, those years could be spent with the greatest love of your life and not playing blacklist/whitelist with a BPDer, but the choice is yours. The fact that you brought up smoking is very poignant here, both smoking and dealing with an unhealthy relationship are dangerous addictions that many people choose to do anyway. Like I mentioned before, priority #1 of being a healthy caregiver is to keep yourself healthy. You won't be able to care for anyone if you resign yourself to going down in flames, if you see your life as half empty and worsening every day, because you won't be here anymore. Caregiving can turn into a suicidal Romeo and Juliet story, giving in to just loving others until we fade away.

 

Maybe I'm coming across more harshly than I intend to, I wish with all my being that you are experiencing a true effort from this person to get her head on straight and repair the cracks in the relationship. I hope it works out for you, it's just that the dance of caregiver + BPD always seems to follow the same dance steps...

 

Exit, I do agree with you, though I am pretty much a pot calling the kettle black if I say dont go back. If you are willing to take the risk, and you know the consequences, then I really hope this is a success story.

 

I think I've learned a lot about my ex and myself in this thread, so if youre gonna do it, at least you have some information this time around.

 

Just please try to keep this in mind:

1. Pay attention to her ACTIONS - when I got back with my ex, her actions did not match her words. She talked the talk, but didnt walk the walk

2. Do not let your guard down easily - she has to earn your trust, not the other way around. Any time you have doubts, think "would I tolerate this from someone I just met?"

3. Look out for your best interests - if you find you are not happy, confront the problem and move on if you cannot resolve. Remember that we cannot fix these people, it will be apparent if she has awareness and the courage to work on herself.

 

Good luck!!!!

[frenchmanfl]

Hey Exit, I do appreciate your perspective and you could well be right, but I have to see.

 

I put nothing past anyone, remember I moved down to a completely new city only to be greeted by an exw ( 20 years together ) running off with another man and them moving into a house with my son, so I am well aware of the risks.

 

I will never say never, but there is a lot of emotional data that points to this being quite real. We broke up, she chased after me, not the other way around. And since then, 90% has been her doing the same. No woman would put four hours into a conversation, no woman, if I was just some random option. Why bother ? There has to be more to it than fun.

 

Again, I have not hidden how I feel and my plans for the future ( marriage ). This doesn't scare her ( she told me so ) what does is her perception that I broke her trust. What I define as a breach of trust is immaterial. She controls what she deems as a breach of trust, so I can only work towards rebuilding that and see what happens.

 

Point being that if this were just some " play " for her, then she would have dropped me long ago. Why put this much effort into one man if all you want is to play the field ?

 

I have also heard all of hers and others girls horror stories about the dating scene and I am in Miami, this town is full of goons. There are plenty of hot ladies around too, gold diggers etc. I want a woman with substance.

 

She knows I was married twenty years and am therefore NOT a player. I am a loving Father, kind, romantic, good looking, highly educated, a great chef ( she's a great chef ), a musician ( she's a singer ) , very respectful of women, very well traveled ( she graduated with a literature and Asia arts studies degree ).

 

Does this make you want to date me Exit. LOL !

 

In short, I am a catch to a particular woman and I could say the same for her, in terms of all of the boxes she checks for me. So it's much deeper than, hey your sexy and cool, let's go have fun. This component has to remain but there is a lot more to it.

 

Other pointers were that she has always been in long relationships, with big breaks in between. She was married once, for 7 years and he cheated on her. She is 41. If she was in her twenties...

 

I will not put up with games, but in order to move forward with her, I have to throw caution to the wind. At the first sign that I am being played, I will walk, trust me. Things got very messy and I have to see if we can find calmer waters and then make my call.

 

I WAS ready to let go, but just don't want to right now. There is just too much there, but I will not be blind. If things don't progress organically, within a predetermined time and and she keeps stalling, I am out. I have options too.

 

The go down in flames comment was just a joke. Trust me. I like to play. However, I really do appreciate the warning.

[frenchmanfl]

Hey Pen, thank kind sir. I will register all of the warning signs you have identified. I can live without her, I just don't want to. I still got game, and there are other fish in the sea, I see them every day.

 

Wow this is a bunch of guys I would love to have a few drinks with. One things for sure, we would all be eying the same vulnerable looking women in the corner. LOL ! A rarity for me and my dog friends, who are looking at the skanks wearing what amounts to a bra.

 

Seriously though, guys thank you all. Band of brothers up in dis house !

[frenchmanfl]

Plus I got off the phone an hour ago with a modeling agency that needs a driver ( on call ) on weekends to chauffeur ( in my ride and not in a monkey suit ) models who are in town for photo shoots. I got it if I want it. Wonder how my GF will take that piece of news. =) LOL ! Sorry honey, a couple of 6 ft twenty year old models need a ride to the keys, be back tomorrow.

 

Of course, in my mind, I will be completely loyal to her, because I will likely be able to see daylight on the other side while looking throw on ear, but...

 

We shall see !

[frenchmanfl]

Plus I got off the phone an hour ago with a modeling agency in NYC, that needs a driver ( on call ) on weekends to taxi, out of town models, in my ride and not in a monkey suit, who are in town for photo shoots.

 

I got it if I want it.

 

Wonder how my GF will take that piece of news. =)

 

LOL ! Sorry honey, a couple of 6 ft twenty year old models need a ride to the Keys, be back tomorrow.

 

Of course, in my mind, I will be completely loyal to her, because that is just how I am and as soon as I look to the right and can the light at the end of the tunnel while looking through the models left ear, I will not be interested.

 

I am a gentleman and I love this woman so I am not going to play it up or even mention it until it's necessary. I am not a child. It's a gig.

 

After all of this very deep and very meaningful dialogue I hope no one objects to my playing a little.

 

We shall see !

[Pens55]

Plus I got off the phone an hour ago with a modeling agency that needs a driver ( on call ) on weekends to chauffeur ( in my ride and not in a monkey suit ) models who are in town for photo shoots. I got it if I want it. Wonder how my GF will take that piece of news. =) LOL ! Sorry honey, a couple of 6 ft twenty year old models need a ride to the keys, be back tomorrow.

 

Well, if youre not interested in them....send em my way! lol

 

Anyway, keep us updated and good luck!

[frenchmanfl]

Pen you have a deal =)

[Downtown]

It was almost surreal how things switched from dealing with the young child character to the disapproving disappointed adult figure.

Most likely, the child was in charge in both instances, even when she was expressing critical disapproval in a parental tone. If you had been dealing with the logical adult part of her mind, instead of talking to the child, you would have been able to reason with her. If she has strong BPD traits, as I suspect, it will be a rare event for you to be able to reason with her and arrive at mutually agreeable compromises. Sometimes she will pretend to be doing so but, within a few days or a week, you will find her completely ignoring that agreement -- arguing that you somehow had misled her or forced her into agreeing to it (e.g., to avoid an outburst from you). Like I said, it is common for BPDers to rewrite history frequently when it suits them to do so.

Trust is the key issue, getting past these infractions and the fear that if she commits her heart that I could let her down. I even expressed to her that I didn't cheat, steal, injure and tried, unsuccessfully to reason that a step back would provide ample proof that, in particular, the one sore thumb infraction was just a silly move and nothing more. To no avail !.

If trust is the key issue, you are not describing an OCD problem. With OCD, the person is well aware that the obsessive thoughts are ungrounded and that the great fear is unjustified. Trust therefore is not at issue. Folks having a great fear of elevators, for example, know perfectly well -- in the logical part of their mind -- that the elevator is safe and will not suddenly fall. Yet, because the feeling of fear is so intense, they cannot tolerate being inside the elevator. It is the same way with people who have a great fear of flying. They know intellectually that it is the safest way of traveling long distances. Hence, if your GF is unable to trust you, you are describing strong traits of a PD like BPD. And, lacking trust, there is no basis on which to build a lasting friendship, much less a marriage.

I suspect I will be apologizing til the end of time for this, until the next major breach replaces it, but it matters not.

If she is a BPDer, the next breach will not "replace" the current one but, rather, just be added to the list. Even though the current breach may seem to be resolved, it will remain on the list and will resurface -- as you've already seen -- in a way indicating that you had never even discussed or resolved it. It is typical for BPDers to maintain a list of every infraction you ever made. The result is that, when you try to resolve a new issue tomorrow, she will deflect the issue by "kitchen sinking," i.e., bringing up every infraction from the past that crosses her mind.

It is interesting to note that on a few occasions I caught her out on some infractions of her own, as if I had not even mentioned them, she would revert right back to repeating that one workman infraction. It IS the fallback.

Within a year, she likely will have two dozen "fallback" complaints like that.

I don't know how to read all of it, is OCD the leader or is BPD ?

I don't know either. Your descriptions, however, are consistent with strong BPD traits (and perhaps OCPD traits to a lesser extent) -- not OCD traits. That is, you are describing a woman who has a distorted perception of your intentions and motivations -- not a woman who is distracted by obsessive thoughts she knows to be false.

If this were just some " play " for her, then she would have dropped me long ago. Why put this much effort into one man if all you want is to play the field ? ...So it's much deeper than, hey your sexy and cool.

Yes, clearly, she has intense feelings for you. Yet, if she is a BPDer, intensity and passion does not buy you much or last very long. It quickly becomes sporadic and intermittent. As I said, a BPDer's feelings are a mile wide and an inch deep.

 

A related issue is whether she is primarily in love with you (i.e., your unique qualities and virtues) or, rather, in love with the relationship itself. If the latter is true -- as is typical of BPDers -- lots of different men can meet that need. Because a BPDer has a fragile sense of who she is and is unstable, she sorely needs an emotional anchor in her life. She also needs a "perpetrator" to constantly blame so as to validate her false self image of being "the victim." And she needs "a trashcan" in which she can project all of her failings and mistakes so as to avoid the painful feelings of guilt and shame.

 

Significantly, many different men can serve those roles. The result is that, although BPDers may suffer greatly when a relationship ends, what they primarily grieve for is the loss of the relationship itself, not the loss of unique attributes of the Ex. Hence, if you are convinced that your GF truly loves you for the man you really are, I suggest you start acting YOURSELF (i.e., not walking on eggshells) to see if she will withdraw in horror.

I WAS ready to let go, but just don't want to right now. There is just too much there, but I will not be blind.

Frenchman, that is fine. You need not be defensive with us about your choice to continue dating her. Like you said, she has many wonderful attributes and much is at stake. I am confident that you are going into this with your eyes wide open. You therefore will do well -- certainly, far better than I ever did.

[frenchmanfl]

Downtown, you have caused me pause once more. Although, in fairness, everyone else has been planting seeds of warning too ( thank you guys ).

 

Your response is simply too eye opening to disregard. I did also read a new article on BPDFamily, that was also too spot on.

 

I was focusing on her pronouncement that she does want a long term committed connection and marriage and, even more so, the extraordinary amount of time and effort she has devoted to me. Chasing me and four hours on the phone The belief that if there wasn't that love or a passion and need of me as a partner, she wouldn't have bothered.

 

Based on your enlightening response, and further thought, I believe you are correct. That these are not feelings of love she has for me, nor are they based on a desire for romance. I have simply become an emotional rock to cling to. It's not love, it's just safety.

 

I do go back to the 6 week absence and her not contacting me once during that period, but that when she got my letter saying we should give it a second chance, she came running back. I don't know how to read that, except that she prevented herself from reaching out because she didn't know what was going through my mind, that I didn't try to win her back straight off the bat or come crying.

 

But that was when she broke it off with me. The recent one was my breaking off with her and so she knew my feelings and I also did leave an open door.

 

The problem for me is that I can deal with all of it. The withdrawals, the verbal insults but not the possibility that she might be dating. I went through a long time of listening to lies from my exw, while she was having her emotional affair that turned into the end. I suppose it's because of this trauma which could also simply be creating paranoia.

 

Even if my " GF " wasn't out dating, the fact that this has become a concern has planted a seed in my head I can't get rid of.

 

My new tack is worrisome because as explained there does seem to be so much there for us, so many common threads, but if she is incapable of truly loving, in our sense of the word, of forming the bond needed then I am fighting a losing battle.

 

The one thing I wished I had access to were her ex boyfriends, so that I could get their sides of the story. I pointed to their final acts of betrayal, as indicators of her fidelity, because the final blow was their betrayal but who knows what happened in between.

 

If, things will never really improve from where they are now then this is not what I seek. I don't expect a lot of attention nor do I expect things to return to the infatuation phase. I am old enough to know about the honeymoon. What I do expect though is a loving partnership of mutual emotional support.

 

It pains me because even with all of this knowledge I thought I believed that she could find that bond that, if she let go over time, she would slowly see a reliable, loving and trustworthy partner in me and she could settle in, so to speak. I completely appreciate that this is an illness, no cure, only chance is years of intense pain and tears in therapy. Again, fidelity is the only issue for me, although with that said, if there is no actual love then maybe I should retract that statement because I do want that.

 

If she is incapable of reaching that reasoning, then my hopes are misguided. It is sad to realize that it is because so many have betrayed her in the past, that she is incapable of trusting anyone. How I wish I could go back in time, grab her arm and take her in another direction. Its not all about past experiences but one wonders the positive impact if this same person could avoid the horrors.

 

I watched an interesting documentary yesterday which featured, in part, a scientist who had himself had a very hard upbringing and he made it his aim to find the area in the brain that stores memory and see if he might not be able to erase it. He found it. Problem is it is all or nothing, so the risk is that one loses all of the wonderful things about your partner that make you love them.

 

I am also frustrated because, in between all of the tirades, she does make sense. She has admitted to her flaws and shortcomings, such as a tendency to race into things. She has admitted to so much. Note she volunteered much of it. I didn't pose a question which she responds to. They were admissions that she did not have to address. " High functioning " is still very much engrained in my head.

 

A question, which no one likely has an answer to, does high functioning not run across the spectrum of relationship issues ( and everything else )? If she can admit to her own shortcomings, without prompting, apologize when she over reacts, can she not recognize real love and use those higher cognitive skills to function as a true " partner " or at least find moments where the pure emotions surface long enough to cause her to reflect. I wonder.

 

There is so much there, so much that could bind us, so many commonalities that could serve to keep us united, mutual interests in past times etc. It's very sad to think that these cannot take center stage along with the love.

 

I worry that I might make the wrong decision. I told ( I forget his pen name ) don't jump to conclusions, take the risk and I was ready to but the threat of infidelity, whether real or perceived, is working overtime for me.

 

Will report, in time, but this decision isn't going to happen overnight nor will the consequences.I am still on the fence but slowly falling over onto the above mentioned side.

Edited January 19, 2012 by frenchmanfl

[Downtown]

Frenchman, thanks so much for the update.

Does high functioning not run across the spectrum of relationship issues ( and everything else )? If she can admit to her own shortcomings, without prompting, apologize when she over reacts, can she not recognize real love and use those higher cognitive skills to function as a true " partner "

Frenchman, you seem to be asking whether, if she is very high functioning on one particular BPD trait, she is highly likely to be very high functioning across all of the BPD traits she exhibits. If that is your question, I believe the answer is "no" in some respects and "yes" in others. It is "no" in the sense that different BPDers have various combinations of the 9 traits and have some at high levels and others at low levels.

 

On the other hand, the 9 traits are not equally important. A few of them, like the lack of self identity and emotional instability, have such dire and far reaching consequences that being high functioning on those traits likely correlates strongly with respect to several other BPD traits a person also would have. If this is true (and I don't know it is for sure), then the answer to your question is "yes" in some respects.

[frenchmanfl]

Hey Downtown, busy day today. Took a slightly different tack yesterday but this thread is not meant to be a written account of Patrick's soap opera, and is likely getting boring for everyone, so I will retreat. However, before I do, I have realized that I phrased the question, you so nicely answered, very poorly and have found a much better way of getting my query across.

 

In a nutshell, and I know it's reaching and likely has no real answer, because there is no doubt that the ' cocktail " of illnesses and the degrees they impact that person's personality vary so dramatically from one person to the next... however... in your educated opinion, is a high functioning BPD'er more likely to cope slightly better with the rigors of a real relationship and therefore inflict less chaos, less frequently, because they recognize nuances a little better ?

 

If my ( whatever she is right now ) can recognize when she has over reacted and apologizes might she also be able to regulate other key emotions better than a low functioning BPD'er ?

 

I re-iterate that this is not an exact science but I thought I would ask anyway.

 

An article I read yesterday on BPDFamily had me reflecting again. The crux of it was that the non BPD partner has to learn to read the BPD partner's body language and actions, not their words. This did make me think.

 

I will use one example that happened to me. Were sitting on the couch watching a movie cuddling. 30 min later she does her pushed all the way against the couch side wall, but she gets up goes to the bathroom and then comes back with a little extra make up and a fresh application of perfume ( wanted to make this sound prettier but could not find the words ). We were staying in that night. However, when she got back on the couch she returned to her almost defensive stance.

 

The fresh changes would possibly indicate a desire for intimacy but her posture indicated a desire not to be crowded or touched ?

 

This has been a problem in our relationship, my ability to read her desires for intimacy. Unless she expressed direct interest, I would often not initiate.

 

During our four hour phone conversation she asked me why I didn't advance to make love to her after she had grilled me about the workman episode. My response was that you were furious, the last thing that came to my mind was that she could ever be in the mood to be seduced.

 

Anyway, examples of words vs. actions.

 

Merci.

Edited January 20, 2012 by frenchmanfl

[Exit]

Great post Fluorescent. You make a very strong point. In all aspects in life there are two sides to the coin, but this is especially true in the case of what we're discussing in this thread. Thinking about someone else, their behaviors, their issues, should illicit an equal if not stronger inspection of our own side of the equation, how we contribute to the situations, how the other person's actions affect our own, etc. And I agree with your main message, OP made a decision, stood up for his boundaries, and should spend as much time looking forward as possible, instead of backwards. Sometimes the first step in a journey does involve looking back at where we came from, but if you linger too long, you never take the next step.

 

Frenchman, I can identify with a lot of what you said in your last few posts. My ex also had extremely lucid moments in between her extreme ups and downs. Looking back on it, I realize I used to tell her I referred to these moments as "I felt like I was really talking to YOU". It's like sometimes if the planets were aligned right I could catch her without her various defense mechanisms operating. During these moments, I'd talk to her about things, she would literally finish my sentences as if we were in total agreement and operating on the same wavelength, she would be willing to talk about a lot of her behaviors and admit that they did not make her happy either. These beautiful moments were what kept me going for so long. But unfortunately these moments were just too rare.