One issue with making a man wait for sex

[phineas]

@ phineas: very short answer:

I equate intimacy to safety and trust. They're on the same level for me. No, I don't seek intimacy from men I don't intend to sleep with. I have no interest in them anyway, so why would I pursue a relationship (intimacy, sex or whatever) with them anyway? No need to.

 

So you are saying you don't cuddle with men you aren't having sex with or unload your personal problems on them or partake in any intimate psychical activity with them prior to sex?

 

Do you expect them to be exclusive with you prior to sex also?

 

I just want to clarify. "safety & trust" don't really explain much to me.

What are examples of safety & trust & how does a man make you feel this?

 

And have you ever gone months with someone then changed your mind & left him hanging?

[LittleTiger]

yes you did. you insinuated that all I cared about was sex. Do you deny that now?

Just because you put a "?" on the end doesn't make it any less of a statement.

 

Actually putting a "?" on the end of something makes it in to a question. I am merely trying to understand your logic because what you say doesn't make any sense to me - unless you are just after sex. I'm not really the type to insinuate anything - I'm a bit more direct than that, and I don't know you personally so I have no idea what your motivations are - hence the question.

 

I guess you missed the post where I also said in this thread that a woman who wants to wait for sex is not compatible with me & I wish her no ill will & the best of luck finding the man for her.

 

Well we agree on something then. Does that also mean that you prefer promiscuous women? Yes, that is a genuine question because, to me, women who have sex with a guy on the first or second date are relatively promiscuous.

 

And i'll bet I missed some potentially great relationships in the past because I was concentrating on the wrong woman & ignored the right one.

 

I don't have to worry about that anymore because sex = exclusive to me these days & any woman who doesn't agree isn't compatible to my dating style. Or an attention whore.

 

Another genuine question - if sex = exclusive, do you then expect exclusivity (and therefore presumably a serious relationship) from the first date?

[ThaWholigan]

simple answer, I was a classic beta.

desperate, low opinion of myself, out of shape, too nice, ect.

 

I let them dangle the sex carrot (intimacy without sex)

 

I recognize it was MY fault that they did this.

I let them do this & I can only blame myself.

 

I see it happening to other guys all the time & provide my opinions based on my personal experience.

 

The way I do things now works for me.

It may not work for other's but again all I can offer is my opinion based on personal experience.

 

As I thought ......I think that sometimes men don't try to understand attraction, how it works, and how to generate it. As well as all that stuff you mentioned....being too nice is the deathtrap.

[phineas]

Actually putting a "?" on the end of something makes it in to a question. I am merely trying to understand your logic because what you say doesn't make any sense to me - unless you are just after sex. I'm not really the type to insinuate anything - I'm a bit more direct than that, and I don't know you personally so I have no idea what your motivations are - hence the question.

 

Considering i've stated multiple times in this thread I am not just looking for sex you either have read zero of my posts in this thread or you were taking a shot at me.

 

Since i've seen you warp reality in the past with my posts I have no problem believing the latter.

You want to change my impression of you?

Stop doing it.

 

 

Well we agree on something then. Does that also mean that you prefer promiscuous women? Yes, that is a genuine question because, to me, women who have sex with a guy on the first or second date are relatively promiscuous.

 

 

Where did I stipulate a time frame?

This is your problem, you deal in extreme's.

Because I don't want to wait months & months for sex I must "want it by the 1st or 2nd date" LOL!

 

If you can show me anywhere on this forum where I stated this I will own it.

But you won't so stop insinuating it.

 

Another genuine question - if sex = exclusive, do you then expect exclusivity (and therefore presumably a serious relationship) from the first date?

 

Since I don't demand sex on the 1st or 2nd date & never have this question is moot but i'll play along.

 

I don't sleep with women unless I want to be exclusive with them or it's a FWB situation which is discussed before hand.

 

It comes down to what is agreed upon.

I also don't tell women I want a relationship just to sleep with them.

 

I've also never slept with someone on the first date.

2nd date, but we worked together for a good yr & were friends for a while before so I knew her well enough to know I wanted to date her.

also, she damn near raped me & sex was all her idea at that point and if I didn't want to date her I would have declined.

 

I don't sleep with multiple women at the same time either.

 

3rd to 4th date is usually when the magic happens.

Edited January 16, 2012 by phineas

[silvermercy]

So you are saying you don't cuddle with men you aren't having sex with or unload your personal problems on them or partake in any intimate psychical activity with them prior to sex?

 

Do you expect them to be exclusive with you prior to sex also?

 

I just want to clarify. "safety & trust" don't really explain much to me.

What are examples of safety & trust & how does a man make you feel this?

 

And have you ever gone months with someone then changed your mind & left him hanging?

To clarify: men I'm not interested in, I don't date them. Men I'm interested in, I date them. How far this would go depends on our general compatibility on many other areas other than sex. Light kissing is as far as I would personally go. I expect them to be exclusive from day 1, yes, just as I would be. No, never months. If I feel he's not for me, I back out very early on.

 

Safety and trust can only be built over time. And it's not easy to define them in a relationship situation. It's a general feeling. But, I guess this could involve sharing details about himself, his childhood, his family, his work, his past relationships etc. He would feel confident about sharing them. Also, transparency, i.e. that there is no other woman involved. (I can't know that for certain within a week).

 

And vice versa for me. Also, a longer waiting time brings more trust by itself: in my mind, he's waiting for me, he gets to know me, and even though I'm pretty sure he'd like to sleep with me now, he's not making a fuss out of it. That means he cares about my personality, TOO. That would in return make me feel safer and finally open up fully to him. So, the keyword here is Time. You can't get safety and trust without Time. (Well...unless you're Dr Who or a Time-lord or something). lol

[phineas]

To clarify: men I'm not interested in, I don't date them. Men I'm interested in, I date them. How far this would go depends on our general compatibility on many other areas other than sex. Light kissing is as far as I would personally go. I expect them to be exclusive from day 1, yes, just as I would be. No, never months. If I feel he's not for me, I back out very early on.

 

Safety and trust can only be built over time. And it's not easy to define them in a relationship situation. It's a general feeling. But, I guess this could involve sharing details about himself, his childhood, his family, his work, his past relationships etc. He would feel confident about sharing them. Also, transparency, i.e. that there is no other woman involved. (I can't know that for certain within a week).

 

And vice versa for me. Also, a longer waiting time brings more trust by itself: in my mind, he's waiting for me, he gets to know me, and even though I'm pretty sure he'd like to sleep with me now, he's not making a fuss out of it. That means he cares about my personality, TOO. That would in return make me feel safer and finally open up fully to him. So, the keyword here is Time. You can't get safety and trust without Time. (Well...unless you're Dr Who or a Time-lord or something). lol

 

Prime example of men & women not speaking the same language or not being able to convey properly over a chat board.

 

what you just described is pretty much what I consider a non-attention whore. essentially you arn't doing anything to send me home with a stiffy.

 

The only issue I have is the exclusive thing.

You would have to really convince me that you weren't talking to other men or exploring other options for me to not do the same.

 

 

Oh and you mentioned Dr who.

[silvermercy]

Prime example of men & women not speaking the same language or not being able to convey properly over a chat board.

 

what you just described is pretty much what I consider a non-attention whore. essentially you arn't doing anything to send me home with a stiffy.

 

The only issue I have is the exclusive thing.

You would have to really convince me that you weren't talking to other men or exploring other options for me to not do the same.

 

 

Oh and you mentioned Dr who.

Yes, as I said that'd be vice versa for me in everything.

 

Ah the eternal miscommunication... lol

 

(Oh I used to watch Dr Who a lot in my teens. I'm thinking of starting again when I get the time.)

[thatone]

Sex is more than just something pleasurable that two people share and waiting isn't (at least for me) about the guy. I am not attracted to many men, and I tend not to go out with men who don't attract or interest me.

 

I wait because I value my reputation. I value my body. You like to pretend that sex happens in a vacuum but it doesn't. People carry diseases. People use others. Birth control fails. Sex is biological and messy. Hormones women get as a direct result of heterosexual activity affect the woman's brain in such a way that she perceives attachment.

 

I do not want to become attached to someone who is not equally attached to me. I've had it happen and it hurts. I do not want herpes or HIV or any of dozens of germs that can maim or leave me unsafe for future partners and dependant on drug therapy to suppress outbreaks.

 

Knowing someone takes time. Stating boundaries takes maturity. Respecting the boundaries of someone you claim to care for takes honor. If the man I'm interested cant show patience, honor, and maturity he isn't worth risking disease, heart break, and pregnancy.

 

This is not a "victim" mentality. This is me valuing myself. I'd rather be alone than be with an impatient, immature, dishonorable man.

 

so you want someone who is attached to you before you are attached to them, so you can reserve the right to inflict the hurt rather than receive the hurt from your own sense of attachment after sex, that you apparently cannot control or deal with.

 

simple answer: "no".

 

the disease/pregnancy points have no merit because they are just as valid after 6 months as they are after 6 days.

[thatone]

I agree. This all takes time. I don't jump into emotional intimacy or any other kind of intimacy head first without looking, so why is it an issue if I don't want to jump into physical intimacy right away either? How is that "sad" or "attention whoring"?

 

If I've only known a man for two weeks, I'm not going to cook a five-course dinner from scratch for him, talk about my childhood and upbringing, discuss my deepest fears and ambitions, introduce my family to him, buy him an expensive gift, or sleep with him. I barely know the man, and I don't immediately become intimate with somebody unless I know them well and trust them.

 

I don't share my life and body with people at the drop of a hat. What people do and don't share is their own business, and the pace at which they open up to another person is their own personal preference. I happened to meet somebody who felt the same way I do, and we're doing fine. What's the big deal if people disagree or think/act differently? Move on and find somebody who's actually compatible.

 

why not? i'll give a waitress my life story if she'll listen. i have nothing to hide from anyone. and while i have picked up women in bars and have had casual sex, i have never lied to those women about anything. there's no need to.

 

but either way i think your mentality illustrates perfectly the stereotype that a good many men do NOT want. women who are afraid of themselves and afraid of everyone they meet simply are not relationship prospects for most men. dating is not one person trying to convince the other, it's 2 people. if one has nothing to offer but a list of things they WON'T do, then we arrive at the point many men are making....those women have nothing to offer but the elusive promise of sex at a later date. they are not relationship material, and therefore have zero'd in on dangling sex in front of men because they bring nothing else to the table.

Edited January 16, 2012 by thatone

[snug.bunny]

Bleh.

 

All this thread demonstrates are women defending themselves as to why some choose to wait, and comments being throw at them like this:

 

those women have nothing to offer but the elusive promise of sex at a later date. they are not relationship material, and therefore have zero'd in on dangling sex in front of men because they bring nothing else to the table.

 

[thatone]

short the 'expensive gift' the quote i made was her flatly refusing to do anything that she fully expects men to do for her on the first few dates i'm sure, to try and prove themselves to her.

 

so effectively she is nothing more than space occupied across the table on those first few dates literally bringing nothing to the equation.

 

again, simple answer: "no".

[sweetjasmine]

why not? i'll give a waitress my life story if she'll listen. i have nothing to hide from anyone. and while i have picked up women in bars and have had casual sex, i have never lied to those women about anything. there's no need to.

 

What kind of life story? Would you really share the most personal deep feelings with a random stranger? I don't just mean "I was born here, grew up there, and did this, that and the other thing, and here I am."

 

but either way i think your mentality illustrates perfectly the stereotype that a good many men do NOT want. women who are afraid of themselves and afraid of everyone they meet simply are not relationship prospects for most men.

 

I don't see where you're getting that a person like me is afraid of themselves and everyone else. Just because I'm a private person doesn't mean I'm afraid. I tend to form fewer friendships than most, but they're closer and are long-lasting. It's just the way I am. I don't gossip and I don't share personal details about my life with the entire world. I'm not the type of person who puts their life out on display for others to see and I'm not the type of person who is an open book to anyone I have a conversation with. It has nothing to do with fear. It's a personal preference. I know it must seem a little odd these days when it's pretty common for 20-somethings to share every last detail about their mundane lives on Facebook and Twitter as if the whole world really gives a f-ck that you just put frozen lasagna in the oven, but it's the culture I was raised in.

 

When I met my fiance, I wasn't afraid of him. We both opened up to each other gradually because that's what we were comfortable with. There wasn't any anxiety or fear in the process. It was pretty lovely, actually, and I've been enjoying each step of the way.

 

dating is not one person trying to convince the other, it's 2 people.

 

Then I have no idea why you're arguing with me. It's exactly what you say - two people. Two people who happen to be self-disclosing and sharing their lives with each other. It's not one person pushing the other to do things they're not exactly comfortable with. So if you find someone who's not comfortable with what you expect, then move on. I don't see what the point is in arguing about it or casting judgment on people who don't fit your mold.

 

I don't see what the point is in making assumptions about people's behaviors one way or another. Some people feel that they know exactly what they want, and they go for it and move on if it doesn't happen as quickly as they would like it to. Good for them. They're just not a match for a person like me. What's the problem?

 

if one has nothing to offer but a list of things they WON'T do, then we arrive at the point many men are making....those women have nothing to offer but the elusive promise of sex at a later date. they are not relationship material, and therefore have zero'd in on dangling sex in front of men because they bring nothing else to the table.

 

I surely hope you're not insinuating that I have nothing else to offer. In my situation, there was no "elusive promise of sex at a later date." It was a gradual increase in intimacy, and he was actually the one who straight-up said he wanted to take it slow physically because the last time he rushed things with someone he really liked, things crashed and burned in a spectacular fashion. I had had the same exact experience in the not-so-distant past, so I was feeling the same way. We each respected the other's feelings and were on the same page about it. Mutual respect and compatibility - what novel concepts.

[sweetjasmine]

short the 'expensive gift' the quote i made was her flatly refusing to do anything that she fully expects men to do for her on the first few dates i'm sure, to try and prove themselves to her.

 

so effectively she is nothing more than space occupied across the table on those first few dates literally bringing nothing to the equation.

 

again, simple answer: "no".

 

You completely misunderstood what I wrote.

 

Here's a hint: mutual self-disclosure doesn't mean it's one-sided.

[misssmartypants]

so you want someone who is attached to you before you are attached to them, so you can reserve the right to inflict the hurt rather than receive the hurt from your own sense of attachment after sex, that you apparently cannot control or deal with.

 

simple answer: "no".

 

the disease/pregnancy points have no merit because they are just as valid after 6 months as they are after 6 days.

 

Attachment builds organically and mutually. A throw down on a slow night is all well and good but it isn't a relationship it's a bodily function. Time tells so much. Is he a man of his word? When he's not feeling well doeshe takeout out on those around him? How does he react to conflict? Does he live out the values he professes? Is he responsible?

 

Diseases are detectable with time and medical checkups? How many women has he been with? Does he get medically screened regularly? What would his reaction to a pregnancy scare be?

 

I've been with 10 men. I get checked for stds once a year. My last checkup was six months ago and it was clear. I just got out of a relationship and will not be intimate before I've been checked again.

 

Any one can tell me anything. Words are cheap. Actions are far more telling. The only solution is to spend time.

 

I've said before and will repeat. Impatient, dishonorable, immature men can move along. I have a job, a family and a home. None of it is worth risking on an unworthy make with entitlement issues.

[phineas]

Yes, as I said that'd be vice versa for me in everything.

 

Ah the eternal miscommunication... lol

 

(Oh I used to watch Dr Who a lot in my teens. I'm thinking of starting again when I get the time.)

 

The re-launch or the original?

How old are you again?

[snug.bunny]

so effectively she is nothing more than space occupied across the table on those first few dates literally bringing nothing to the equation.

 

When these women are sitting across the table from you, is this the actual image you see?

 

http://www.luvata.com/Global/Gallery/Waste%20of%20space_image.jpg

[LittleTiger]

Considering i've stated multiple times in this thread I am not just looking for sex you either have read zero of my posts in this thread or you were taking a shot at me.

 

Since i've seen you warp reality in the past with my posts I have no problem believing the latter.

You want to change my impression of you?

Stop doing it.

 

I haven't read all of your posts on this thread, just the ones you wrote in response to mine - I don't have the time to read every post - so, no, I wasn't taking a shot at you. I don't have much interest in changing your impression of me either - what you think of me doesn't really concern me.

 

 

 

Where did I stipulate a time frame?

This is your problem, you deal in extreme's.

Because I don't want to wait months & months for sex I must "want it by the 1st or 2nd date" LOL!

 

If you can show me anywhere on this forum where I stated this I will own it.

But you won't so stop insinuating it.

 

These are the two posts that led me to believe you wouldn't wait longer than a couple of dates for sex - clearly I have misunderstood.

 

I can tell the difference between a woman who wants me & a woman who just wants my attention & I can promise you after dating so many attention whores I can tell it within the 1st or 2nd date before sex is even on the table.

 

err, because a woman REALLY into me doesn't want to wait for sex.

 

 

 

Since I don't demand sex on the 1st or 2nd date & never have this question is moot but i'll play along.

 

I don't sleep with women unless I want to be exclusive with them or it's a FWB situation which is discussed before hand.

 

It comes down to what is agreed upon.

I also don't tell women I want a relationship just to sleep with them.

 

I've also never slept with someone on the first date.

2nd date, but we worked together for a good yr & were friends for a while before so I knew her well enough to know I wanted to date her.

also, she damn near raped me & sex was all her idea at that point and if I didn't want to date her I would have declined.

 

I don't sleep with multiple women at the same time either.

 

3rd to 4th date is usually when the magic happens.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

[musemaj11]

As long as a woman respects me financially, I will respect her sexually.

 

But if for example a woman thinks that she is entitled to me spending money on her for the first four dates then it is also fair for me should I in turn choose to feel that Im entitled to sex from her by the fourth date.

 

The Golden Rule is the principle I live by.

[thatone]

Attachment builds organically and mutually. A throw down on a slow night is all well and good but it isn't a relationship it's a bodily function. Time tells so much. Is he a man of his word? When he's not feeling well doeshe takeout out on those around him? How does he react to conflict? Does he live out the values he professes? Is he responsible?

 

Diseases are detectable with time and medical checkups? How many women has he been with? Does he get medically screened regularly? What would his reaction to a pregnancy scare be?

 

I've been with 10 men. I get checked for stds once a year. My last checkup was six months ago and it was clear. I just got out of a relationship and will not be intimate before I've been checked again.

 

Any one can tell me anything. Words are cheap. Actions are far more telling. The only solution is to spend time.

 

I've said before and will repeat. Impatient, dishonorable, immature men can move along. I have a job, a family and a home. None of it is worth risking on an unworthy make with entitlement issues.

 

all of these things take into account yourself, but not the men you date.

 

because, (broken record mode again), the majority, from my experience, of women who want to deny sex for longer than a month or so are doing so because they want to have sex with someone else, and are just getting attention/entertainment from the man they're with in the meantime.

 

and as we men know, the only thing that will likely prevent that is sexual attachment.

 

so the distrust you have in men is equally applied to you. and until you are having sex with a man who knows the above to be true, he will not give you commitment, because you haven't given it to him.

 

see, this is the problem with the argument that all of you women but emilia are presenting. you're telling us that you want the guarantee of a relationship before you're willing to have sex with a man you're dating. well there are no guarantees. you can discover a deal breaker at any time.

 

men on the other hand are saying that they want a guarantee that you're not eyeballing some other guy, or keeping your options open at the very least, until they commit to you. that is a perfectly reasonable expectation, whereas yours isn't, your expectations are impossible to attain.

 

and not only are they impossible, but sweetjasmine apparently takes it a step further by making a list of things she will NOT do and will NOT reveal about herself to spice things up a bit for the poor bastard that winds up on a date with her. that's a fantastic set of criteria, she wants men to automatically want relationship and commitment to a woman they know nothing about (because she won't tell them).

 

do none of you really hear how crazy that sounds?

[silvermercy]

The re-launch or the original?

How old are you again?

29. I had watched some re-runs of the originals I think. None of the new version ones!

[thatone]

and not to exclude myself, before anyone points it out, i will acknowledge the fact that my entire argument is also probably semantics, because in all likelihood you are only projecting an image of yourselves that you would like to be true, when in fact every one of you has had casual sex and/or sex after a date or two with a guy you've dated in the past.

[sweetjasmine]

and not only are they impossible, but sweetjasmine apparently takes it a step further by making a list of things she will NOT do and will NOT reveal about herself to spice things up a bit for the poor bastard that winds up on a date with her. that's a fantastic set of criteria, she wants men to automatically want relationship and commitment to a woman they know nothing about (because she won't tell them).

 

do none of you really hear how crazy that sounds?

 

Okay, now I know you're intentionally misreading every word I write and forcing it to fit the caricature you've already drawn up.

 

No, I do not "automatically want relationships and commitment" when somebody knows nothing about me "(because won't tell them)." In fact, if a man offered me automatic relationship and commitment on the first date, I would turn around and run for my life.

 

I want a gradual increase in intimacy as I get to know somebody, and like I wrote in my other post, I want mutual respect and compatibility. I don't want somebody pushing for more intimacy than I feel comfortable with, and I don't push for intimacy that the other person doesn't feel comfortable with. If you think that's crazy, well, lucky you! You don't have to date somebody like me. You also don't have to insult me either, but feel free if you're having fun.

[misssmartypants]

all of these things take into account yourself, but not the men you date.

 

because, (broken record mode again), the majority, from my experience, of women who want to deny sex for longer than a month or so are doing so because they want to have sex with someone else, and are just getting attention/entertainment from the man they're with in the meantime.

 

and as we men know, the only thing that will likely prevent that is sexual attachment.

 

so the distrust you have in men is equally applied to you. and until you are having sex with a man who knows the above to be true, he will not give you commitment, because you haven't given it to him.

 

see, this is the problem with the argument that all of you women but emilia are presenting. you're telling us that you want the guarantee of a relationship before you're willing to have sex with a man you're dating. well there are no guarantees. you can discover a deal breaker at any time.

 

men on the other hand are saying that they want a guarantee that you're not eyeballing some other guy, or keeping your options open at the very least, until they commit to you. that is a perfectly reasonable expectation, whereas yours isn't, your expectations are impossible to attain.

 

and not only are they impossible, but sweetjasmine apparently takes it a step further by making a list of things she will NOT do and will NOT reveal about herself to spice things up a bit for the poor bastard that winds up on a date with her. that's a fantastic set of criteria, she wants men to automatically want relationship and commitment to a woman they know nothing about (because she won't tell them).

 

do none of you really hear how crazy that sounds?

 

If I don't eat before I am hungry, is that denying food? If I don't drink when I am not thirsty, is that denying drink? If I don't sleep when I am not tired, am I denying sleep?

 

It isn't about saying "I know what you want and if X conditions are met I will" and it isn't about causing pain or discomfort or extracting promises or goods.

 

Yes, I've had casual sexual encounters, they were fun for a minute, then I was just empty and alone. I've had long term relationships where sex was had that were not defined, in the unspoken understanding that things would progress naturally, the result was I was head over heels with the guy who saw me as something fun to do no a slow weekend when he didn't have any other obligations.

 

A relationship is something between two people that involves emotional intimacy, affection, enjoyment, and eventually, physical intimacy. Talk to me all you want, you will never convince me to change my mind.

 

I am not interested in anyone's money. I make my own. If I want a meal, I'll make it or buy it myself. My company and friendship and body and life are all valuable to me and I will not be guilted into giving any of it away.

 

If a man cannot understand this, he is not the one for me and welcome to move along.

[phineas]

29. I had watched some re-runs of the originals I think. None of the new version ones!

 

I remember the original when I was a kid. creeped me out.

 

The re-launch was pretty good though.

[thatone]

Thatone, I have a question for you.

 

If you started seeing someone, who told you quite honestly, 'i generally fall in love when I have sex'.

 

How would you deal with that? (Dump her, have sex with her anyway, want to wait to have sex until you felt you would like her to be in love with you, etc)

 

With me, this is pretty much a fact of life. What would you advise for a woman like me, wanting a relationship?

as phineas and emilia have said, i pretty much take their opinion in that regard, i don't make a habit of dating people i don't like being around.

 

and since i primarily meet women in the few bars i go to, that's easy enough to figure out. if i spend 2 or 3 hours talking to a woman i meet in a bar before we ever exchange numbers i get a pretty good idea on whether or not our personalities are similar.

 

of course if the woman is interested in casual/FWB type situations and i am as well i won't likely turn her down. but as i said in another post yesterday i don't lie to women, i'm honest about what i want and who i am. i see no need to lie.

 

and yes i have rejected women that were otherwise attractive to me who i could've gotten sex from, because other external factors made being with them a bad idea.

 

so i'm not taking advantage of women left and right just for sex. sex is honestly not hard to come by, if that's all you want.

 

the point i'm trying to convey is that for the same reason you all want to withhold sex, i am not willing to hang around. every time i have agreed to such a situation i have been the one taken advantage of. so no, i won't go without sex with a woman i'm dating to the 'commitment' stage. because honestly, all that is is a debate about who is going to show their cards first. and i have shown enough cards in approaching, chasing, etc. at that point it's her turn.

Edited January 17, 2012 by thatone