One issue with making a man wait for sex

[Els]

I think this is one of the saddest things I have ever read, anywhere, from a man speaking about women. It is tragic, to me, that anyone could feel this way about other people - especially people they have chosen to spend time with and presumably would like to know better.

 

Perhaps one day you will meet a woman who stands head and shoulders above everyone else and changes your mind.

 

Personally, if I was currently looking for a committed relationship, I wouldn't even consider dating someone who didn't stand out from the crowd in some significant way - what would be the point?

 

We obviously have a fundamentally different way of viewing the world - which, I suppose, explains why we apparently misunderstand each other's posts.

 

I agree completely, LT

 

To be fair to phineas, though, there are also women who treat dating in the same manner as he, and both he and they are entitled to their own viewpoints. I certainly would never even consider a man who considered me 'just another woman'; however, those women might definitely be compatible with him. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[LittleTiger]

Disagree. There are many, many (the majority, perhaps) people who never get out of their comfort zone. They never deal with people from different walks of life. They are like those people who go on vacations only to the touristy areas and fear getting off the beaten track or trying something foreign (i.e. tourists who fly to Rome and eat at McDonalds).

 

I dunno if I'm explaining this right, but there are a crapload of people who have never interacted with a large number and diverse group of people. They spend time with the same people and routines they know for years and even decades. But they never gain any real experience from socializing with people. That's my point.

 

I think I like phineas and Emilia's post because they put a positive viewpoint on things. They don't look at sex negatively, as if it is something to be taken from someone. I like the viewpoint that sex is an experience for two people as long as it is consenting.

 

Well perhaps we see the world differently because most of the people I know have plenty of life experience, especially where relationships are concerned - except for those who got married in their early 20s and are still married to the same person - and maybe living in the same house - 50 years later.

 

Amongst my friends and family is a pretty broad sprinkling of dating in all its forms, ONSs, FWBs, marriages, separations, divorces, remarriages (sometimes several) - in my view, most people have reasonable life experience. I don't doubt that are plenty you don't but, these days, marrying your childhood sweetheart and staying married is rare, so people have life experience thrust upon them. They are forced out of their comfort zone, at least in terms of romantic relationships (and in recent years employment too) whether they want it or not.

 

I don't think there is a single person on this thread who has 'approached sex negatively'. Perhaps you should go back and read again. Pretty much everybody has said that sex is not something to be taken from someone or, indeed, given to them. We all agree that it should be a shared experience between mutually consenting adults.

 

The only difference in our views is the point at which sex becomes mutually desirable - and that is different for every individual and every relationship.

Edited January 24, 2012 by LittleTiger

[LittleTiger]

I agree completely, LT

 

To be fair to phineas, though, there are also women who treat dating in the same manner as he, and both he and they are entitled to their own viewpoints. I certainly would never even consider a man who considered me 'just another woman'; however, those women might definitely be compatible with him. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

 

Absolutely! Different strokes for different folks! It's what makes life so interesting.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I was reading the title of this thread again today:

 

"one issue with making a man wait for sex..."

 

It's the presumtion that women "owe" men sex in some way that is so bothersome. How does a man know "I am making him wait for sex" anyway? At what point does it become"making a man wait for sex?" 2 weeks? 3 months? 1 year?

[zengirl]

I don't vent to women that i'm not in a relationship with. period. I prefer to spend my time being positive & having fun. Listening to woman chirp about the same stuff over & over again before we are actually a couple is emotional tampon area. I don't want to deal with it until she is ready to show me she wants to be with me. Go find a shrink for Christ sakes & to be honest if she's like that early on I usually tell them it isn't going to work out.

 

Well, this doesn't seem very positive to me. It sounds to me like you don't really like empathizing with anyone unless they've proven some kind of worth to you, which to people like myself who view empathy as paramount, is a very distressing worldview. But that doesn't mean you're not entitled to your own worldview; I just think it sounds really selfish. And there's a huge difference between "venting about work" and "chirping about the same thing over and over again" or emotional tampon area.

 

The emotional tampon area usually includes the gal venting about other men she's dated/dating and such, and I agree, one should never look at anyone who does that (female or male venting about past/current ladies!) as potential SO material; they just don't see you that way or aren't in that place. Venting about a bad day at work is a normal social event. I guarantee you've vented before---perhaps not to women you're dating because it might put a damper on things and lessen the chance of sex, which is ultimately what you're after with them. And you've made that very clear by your comments, not your timeline.

 

Let me clarify, because nobody seems to be paying attention when I say this.

 

EVERY woman that i've spent time with that did not sleep with me after a month (I give them a month) & instead gave me lame excuses used the promise of future sex to keep me around then dropped me & literally had sex with someone else or they were sleeping with some guy who wouldn't commit the whole time & were just using me as a place holder.

 

I heard you say that. You work very hard to type women into particular groups, so that must be the only types of women you attract or the kind of relationships you cultivate. I believe you. I also know there are many other people with many other experiences out there. The plural of anecdote is not data.

 

So your insistence that a lady sleep with you within your timeframe is as much a protective measure as one woman waiting her particular timeframe might be. So be it. It means you won't be compatible with some women, but so what? You're not going to be compatible with everyone. What the women in this thread who've countered you have tried to provide are insights into OTHER reasons (other than what you've experienced) why women might wait. As someone who seems to put a low priority on general empathy (I'm not saying you have no empathy for your friends and family and such, but you don't seem inclined towards empathy for strangers or the general populace or women in general, in particular), I can see why that's not intrinsically valuable to you now, but it's not that anyone wasn't listening.

 

Finding someone I enjoy spending time with really isn't all the difficult because the world is full of fun people. Whether their a POS or not is another matter.

 

Sure, but that's not what I said dating was about. I said someone amazing who makes you feel wonderful to be around---there's more than just "having fun" to be done. There are people who truly touch your soul. At least that's my experience, with both friends and lovers.

 

If the woman is actively seeking my time & attention & expects me to answer to her then yes sex does define the relationship. If she isn't demanding my time or keeping tabs on me then I let her decide when she wants to do it, but i'm not going to consider us exclusive until it happens.

 

If someone has to demand your time or "lock you down," then you're not really BF material in my eyes. BF material guys don't see relationships that way --- they see them as partnerships that they actively seek; they don't view them as restrictive, but a pathway to open up to new experiences (they may not use those words, mind you, but they aren't the "ball and chain" guys generally).

 

My problem with LT & most of the other women in this thread is they have this "if a man won't wait months & months, he just wants sex" attitude & they refuse to admit that women do in fact lead men on or make some men wait longer than others.

 

If they did this then they would have to acknowledge that men have a legitimate reason not to wait around for sex.

 

Just as legitimate a reason for women not to have sex quickly.

 

I believe you have self-protective measures you believe are legitimate, yes. Whether they work for you or not is your business. I do not think they constitute a reason for women not to wait is all. It's really important that a person (male or female) be ready before they take a major step like sexual intimacy. And that's the topic of this thread---reasons to wait (or not). Because phineas won't wait around doesn't sound like a good reason to me! I would, personally, never advise anyone to have sex simply because they're worried a guy will not wait around---that's a TERRIBLE reason to have sex. In that case, either the guy is a jerk who's just after sex or it's incompatibility. Either way, better not to sleep with the guy. At any rate: As I said, sex generally happens organically in most healthy relationships that last.

 

You can't even get a woman to even respond to the posed question of how they'd feel if their new BF spent money on all his past GF's but not her.

 

If he say took past GF's to tropical vacations then said "i'm not doing that any more" even though his financials didn't change. No woman wants to touch it because she'd then have to admit she'd feel slighted & therefore have admit men would feel slighted about women & sex.

 

I would have no issue with a guy who became more sensible with his money over time. Most men (and women) do, as they grow older. If the man became needlessly stingy, that'd seem an overreaction to his past self, and I'd see that as a red flag of unfinished business, but if he used to blow his wad on GFs and decides he wants a real partner and financial security, good for him. Sounds like growth to me.

 

if the type of women we're talking about can't control their emotions/feelings/insecurity they're not going to have much luck finding those long term relationships they want with the men they want.

 

and to answer the response those women so often give for themselves, "but i'll feel bad if it doesn't work out", deal with it. relationships are between you and another person, not you and your own feelings, it isn't all about you.

 

I would say that women who can control themselves and only have sex when they're good and ready are MORE likely to have successful LTRs and be happy. At least in my experience and observation. But YMMV.

 

I am speaking in the context of going on dates with someone. Woman A is no special than woman b & both can be replaced by woman c.

 

I agree with LT that this is extremely sad. It says to me that, for you, relationships ARE very much about the sex. After all, that's the only thing they have to offer that's different, right? You said so yourself, so many different times and ways! Love isn't about finding a place-holder, and that's what you've just described. Making someone a romantic place-holder (you could be anyone within certain parameters, so long as you do x,y,z and so forth, but you're not SPECIAL!) is pretty sad. And cynical.

[Oxy Moronovich]

I was reading the title of this thread again today:

 

"one issue with making a man wait for sex..."

 

It's the presumtion that women "owe" men sex in some way that is so bothersome. How does a man know "I am making him wait for sex" anyway? At what point does it become"making a man wait for sex?" 2 weeks? 3 months? 1 year?

 

You read the title but you it seems you didn't read the original post:

 

I keep seeing the threads about waiting for sex but have you ever thought that if a man wanted sex with you bad enough he would wait and the once he got what he wanted do what someone that got it on the first date would do. There are some men that would do that. It like I heard from someone once: If that man or woman wants something from you, they will "play the role" of your ideal companion for a while. Then, at some point, their true self will be revealed. And you will feel like you wasted a lot of valuable time (and money).

 

The original post was talking about players who roleplay as good lovers but leave once sex is gone. That's what it was about.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

You read the title but you it seems you didn't read the original post:

 

The original post was talking about players who roleplay as good lovers but leave once sex is gone. That's what it was about.

 

I did read the original post and responded earlier to this thread. But the title still bothered me because the author seems to think that no matter how a woman decided to go about her relationships, she could get screwed either way. So it seems he is saying that you should have sex anyway. If not that, then what is the solution?

[Oxy Moronovich]

I did read the original post and responded earlier to this thread. But the title still bothered me because the author seems to think that no matter how a woman decided to go about her relationships, she could get screwed either way. So it seems he is saying that you should have sex anyway. If not that, then what is the solution?

 

The solution is to listen to Queen Zenobia:

 

How about just have sex when you are ready? Whether that's date 2 or date 16. Stop worrying about everything else (whether he's in love or wants to marry you or whatever other nonsense). It's really not that complicated.

[joystickd]

I did read the original post and responded earlier to this thread. But the title still bothered me because the author seems to think that no matter how a woman decided to go about her relationships, she could get screwed either way. So it seems he is saying that you should have sex anyway. If not that, then what is the solution?

 

It was simply meant that even if women made men wait to see what they are really about some men do still end up misjudged.

[zengirl]

It was simply meant that even if women made men wait to see what they are really about some men do still end up misjudged.

 

Well, sure, but that's analogous to saying:

 

Even if you wear your seatbelt and drive safely, you may still die in an auto accident so might as well go without it and drive however.

 

Or any number of silly things. Of course NOTHING is foolproof. But getting to know a guy first before sex is the best way to learn who he is if you mind sleeping with someone who turns out to be a player in the end. Spotting players isn't THAT hard.

[joystickd]

Well, sure, but that's analogous to saying:

 

Even if you wear your seatbelt and drive safely, you may still die in an auto accident so might as well go without it and drive however.

 

Or any number of silly things. Of course NOTHING is foolproof. But getting to know a guy first before sex is the best way to learn who he is if you mind sleeping with someone who turns out to be a player in the end. Spotting players isn't THAT hard.

 

If it isn't that hard then women wouldn't be getting on forums or any other medium complaining about them. As much as women talk about players when you look at it they like them. They like the aspect of him having many women and choosing you. It strokes your ego in the same way friendzoning does.

[LittleTiger]

The solution is to listen to Queen Zenobia:

 

What Queen Zenobia said is what the majority of women posting on this thread have said.

 

"Have sex whenever you're ready" and for a lot of us that generally isn't after the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd date and it certainly isn't 'whenever the guy decides he is ready'.

 

A woman is ready when she's ready - her reasons are none of anyone else's business - whether it's on the first date or six months down the line.

 

The majority of the posts here are from men saying that women should have sex as soon as possible if they're genuinely attracted to the man. The women are responding that they will have sex when they're ready and not before.

 

Nobody has to go along with anything they're not happy or comfortable with - both the man and the woman have a choice - either one of them can walk away.

[joystickd]

 

A woman is ready when she's ready - her reasons are none of anyone else's business - whether it's on the first date or six months down the line.

 

A woman's reason would help her cause out a lot. A lot of the issues with waiting is not knowing the reason why. Most of what the men focused on here was negative experiences associated with waiting. These negative experiences create things like a three date rule.

[Oxy Moronovich]

What Queen Zenobia said is what the majority of women posting on this thread have said.

 

"Have sex whenever you're ready" and for a lot of us that generally isn't after the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd date and it certainly isn't 'whenever the guy decides he is ready'.

 

A woman is ready when she's ready - her reasons are none of anyone else's business - whether it's on the first date or six months down the line.

 

The majority of the posts here are from men saying that women should have sex as soon as possible if they're genuinely attracted to the man. The women are responding that they will have sex when they're ready and not before.

 

Nobody has to go along with anything they're not happy or comfortable with - both the man and the woman have a choice - either one of them can walk away.

Isn't this the same thing?

[zengirl]

If it isn't that hard then women wouldn't be getting on forums or any other medium complaining about them. As much as women talk about players when you look at it they like them. They like the aspect of him having many women and choosing you. It strokes your ego in the same way friendzoning does.

 

Most women who get played don't wait around and see who the guy is first, is my point. Those who DO wait around and see who the guy is and still get played normally play themselves (the guy was probably pretty obvious at one point or another). Very few women who wait around to see who a guy is and truly assess his character are tricked by players; that's why they're often given the advice to wait and really get to know the person---so they get BETTER at assessing men and not getting played.

 

What Queen Zenobia said is what the majority of women posting on this thread have said.

 

"Have sex whenever you're ready" and for a lot of us that generally isn't after the 1st, 2nd or even 3rd date and it certainly isn't 'whenever the guy decides he is ready'.

 

A woman is ready when she's ready - her reasons are none of anyone else's business - whether it's on the first date or six months down the line.

 

The majority of the posts here are from men saying that women should have sex as soon as possible if they're genuinely attracted to the man. The women are responding that they will have sex when they're ready and not before.

 

Nobody has to go along with anything they're not happy or comfortable with - both the man and the woman have a choice - either one of them can walk away.

 

Right. "Because some guy might not wait" is just a terrible reason to have sex. That doesn't mean men HAVE to wait---they have a choice, too. I don't see anyone saying men NEED to wait x amount of time; they can feel free to bail.

 

If the woman is important enough to the man, and he sees a future with her, he will generally wait; the opposite is also true: if the man doesn't find the woman important and does not want a future, he will generally not have the patience to wait, thus showing his true colors and hence one of the purposes many people wait. You could reverse the genders there, too. Not all men want fast sex, and not all women want a guy to wait.

[Queen Zenobia]

 

Right. "Because some guy might not wait" is just a terrible reason to have sex. That doesn't mean men HAVE to wait---they have a choice, too. I don't see anyone saying men NEED to wait x amount of time; they can feel free to bail.

 

If the woman is important enough to the man, and he sees a future with her, he will generally wait; the opposite is also true: if the man doesn't find the woman important and does not want a future, he will generally not have the patience to wait, thus showing his true colors and hence one of the purposes many people wait. You could reverse the genders there, too. Not all men want fast sex, and not all women want a guy to wait.

 

Yeah. Part of the problem seems to be many people's inability to know the other party's intentions (or perhaps the other party deliberately hiding their intentions). I don't know any of the men posting in this thread personally, but I'd imagine that if someone is unable to adequately gauge another's interest level (genuine interest vs leading them on) then sexual intimacy is probably the only way of knowing for sure. For women the opposite force tends to be the norm. It's not so much a "men want sex" thing, as it is a "they don't want to sink any emotional investment into someone who might not return the favor" thing. Similar setup with women as well.

 

There's risk no matter what you decide to do, so both men and women should just do what they feel comfortable with and let the chips fall where they may.

[phineas]

And why would I have sex with you while you felt that way about me? If I were looking for a F-buddy or a friend with benefits arrangement, I could see it, but if I'm looking for a forever relationship, why would I share that part of myself with a man who sees me as replaceable and interchangeable with any other woman?

 

What? I'm supposed to fall in love with you on the first or 2nd date & we live happily ever after?

 

Arn't the woman bitching about all the looser guys she meets?

How many dates do you give them before you drop them?

 

I feel sorry for any guy that gets attached to you.

[phineas]

I think this is one of the saddest things I have ever read, anywhere, from a man speaking about women. It is tragic, to me, that anyone could feel this way about other people - especially people they have chosen to spend time with and presumably would like to know better.

 

Perhaps one day you will meet a woman who stands head and shoulders above everyone else and changes your mind.

 

Personally, if I was currently looking for a committed relationship, I wouldn't even consider dating someone who didn't stand out from the crowd in some significant way - what would be the point?

 

We obviously have a fundamentally different way of viewing the world - which, I suppose, explains why we apparently misunderstand each other's posts.

 

Have you only slept with one man in your life?

Are you still with that man?

 

If not then he couldn't of been all that great if you arn't still with him.

 

Have you slept with more than one man? If so, then the previous man was replaced.

 

It really is that simple.

 

also, your still dodging admitting that men have a legitimate reason to not trust women as much as women don't trust men.

 

You are only looking at it from your point of view instead of both points.

[phineas]

If I had a dollar for every time a guy said he "wanted a relationship", yet all he really wanted was sex, I would have ALOT of money now. Like in another thread I just described. When I was 19 I went out with a 26 year old co worker. He said he "wanted a relationship", yet dumped me coz I didn't have sex with him on the first date. What's the rush? I was attracted to him, but after that sleazy behaviour I wasn't. I just don't sleep with anyone, unlike alot of people.

I wanted a relationship, not just sex. I wanted to actually get to know this person- what people used to do.

 

The irony is if he had of waited, god forbid- dated me, got to know me and became my bf, I would've done anything for him. But because he couldn't get instant gratification, he got cut. That's where I find men dumb. There's nothing more I can't stand than a liar. In the end that was this guys loss. He passed up something that could've been good.

 

Well i'm older than you & if I had every penny I spent on a woman who told me she wanted to "take it slow" when she was sleeping with someone else or just hopped into bed with someone else I'd have a lot more money than you.

 

But you just keep thinking women are the only one's victimized.

[serial muse]

Yeah. Part of the problem seems to be many people's inability to know the other party's intentions (or perhaps the other party deliberately hiding their intentions). I don't know any of the men posting in this thread personally, but I'd imagine that if someone is unable to adequately gauge another's interest level (genuine interest vs leading them on) then sexual intimacy is probably the only way of knowing for sure. For women the opposite force tends to be the norm. It's not so much a "men want sex" thing, as it is a "they don't want to sink any emotional investment into someone who might not return the favor" thing. Similar setup with women as well.

 

There's risk no matter what you decide to do, so both men and women should just do what they feel comfortable with and let the chips fall where they may.

 

Great post. And bolded for truth.

 

People don't fit into little boxes and one-size-fits-all timelines. Nothing is intrinsically wrong with people who choose to wait, nor with those who don't feel it's necessary. Some people see sex as extremely personal, and some don't. Some see it as a promise of sorts, and some don't. The only thing that's universal is that bullying - in either direction - is the enemy of true intimacy.

 

If both people aren't ready for sex, then it shouldn't happen. And if the one who is ready feels that waiting for the other person to be ready is a dealbreaker and/or somehow indicates manipulative behavior, then he or she should feel free to walk away.

[phineas]

Missed this before.

 

No, you were being rude.

 

At the bolded - see my previous post. What a shame you apparently have such a dislike and lack of respect for women as human beings.

 

Yes, finally, we agree on something, people are all different and unique - so how can they possibly be interchangeable???? Are your TRUE friends (no doubt all male) also interchangeable? Of course not - and neither are women.

 

I brought up your dating scenario from 20 years ago because you did - several times I think - that's when your beliefs about women were apparently formed because they don't seem to have changed since then.

 

I can't piece together what you're saying? How about you can't piece together what I'm saying? I'm more than willing to take half the responsibility for our inability to communicate - you, however, are insisting it must be me. Probably because I'm just a woman and I'm apparently worth nothing more than what's between my legs - same as every other woman on the planet!

 

I have neither danced around anything you've said nor refused to acknowledge it. I have stated, several times, that if women have led you on in this way, and you can see no other way of interpreting their behaviour then so be it. If you read my posts carefully, you'll see that I don't actually disagree with what you believe has happened - it happened to you not to me, but, as far as I'm aware, it hasn't happened to either my partner, previous partners or any of my male friends and family who, mostly, have a very high regard for women.

 

I can't understand why any woman would want to a lead a man on for attention but no sex. All of my friends want real relationships, including sex, and I've never met a woman (a fully mature one who is sexually active, that is) who would want the kind of 'relationship' you are talking about. What is there to be gained from pretending to want sex from a man if you don't? It's a new one on me and makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Bolded - i'm not the only man in this thread who has claimed this happened.

Why, when multiple men have said this happened you still refuse to accept that it happens?

 

Why?

[phineas]

I agree completely, LT

 

To be fair to phineas, though, there are also women who treat dating in the same manner as he, and both he and they are entitled to their own viewpoints. I certainly would never even consider a man who considered me 'just another woman'; however, those women might definitely be compatible with him. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

 

You still don't get it.

Just because you are a woman that doesn't make you "special".

[phineas]

Well, this doesn't seem very positive to me. It sounds to me like you don't really like empathizing with anyone unless they've proven some kind of worth to you, which to people like myself who view empathy as paramount, is a very distressing worldview. But that doesn't mean you're not entitled to your own worldview; I just think it sounds really selfish. And there's a huge difference between "venting about work" and "chirping about the same thing over and over again" or emotional tampon area.

 

The emotional tampon area usually includes the gal venting about other men she's dated/dating and such, and I agree, one should never look at anyone who does that (female or male venting about past/current ladies!) as potential SO material; they just don't see you that way or aren't in that place. Venting about a bad day at work is a normal social event. I guarantee you've vented before---perhaps not to women you're dating because it might put a damper on things and lessen the chance of sex, which is ultimately what you're after with them. And you've made that very clear by your comments, not your timeline.

 

 

 

I heard you say that. You work very hard to type women into particular groups, so that must be the only types of women you attract or the kind of relationships you cultivate. I believe you. I also know there are many other people with many other experiences out there. The plural of anecdote is not data.

 

So your insistence that a lady sleep with you within your timeframe is as much a protective measure as one woman waiting her particular timeframe might be. So be it. It means you won't be compatible with some women, but so what? You're not going to be compatible with everyone. What the women in this thread who've countered you have tried to provide are insights into OTHER reasons (other than what you've experienced) why women might wait. As someone who seems to put a low priority on general empathy (I'm not saying you have no empathy for your friends and family and such, but you don't seem inclined towards empathy for strangers or the general populace or women in general, in particular), I can see why that's not intrinsically valuable to you now, but it's not that anyone wasn't listening.

 

 

 

Sure, but that's not what I said dating was about. I said someone amazing who makes you feel wonderful to be around---there's more than just "having fun" to be done. There are people who truly touch your soul. At least that's my experience, with both friends and lovers.

 

 

 

If someone has to demand your time or "lock you down," then you're not really BF material in my eyes. BF material guys don't see relationships that way --- they see them as partnerships that they actively seek; they don't view them as restrictive, but a pathway to open up to new experiences (they may not use those words, mind you, but they aren't the "ball and chain" guys generally).

 

 

 

I believe you have self-protective measures you believe are legitimate, yes. Whether they work for you or not is your business. I do not think they constitute a reason for women not to wait is all. It's really important that a person (male or female) be ready before they take a major step like sexual intimacy. And that's the topic of this thread---reasons to wait (or not). Because phineas won't wait around doesn't sound like a good reason to me! I would, personally, never advise anyone to have sex simply because they're worried a guy will not wait around---that's a TERRIBLE reason to have sex. In that case, either the guy is a jerk who's just after sex or it's incompatibility. Either way, better not to sleep with the guy. At any rate: As I said, sex generally happens organically in most healthy relationships that last.

 

 

 

I would have no issue with a guy who became more sensible with his money over time. Most men (and women) do, as they grow older. If the man became needlessly stingy, that'd seem an overreaction to his past self, and I'd see that as a red flag of unfinished business, but if he used to blow his wad on GFs and decides he wants a real partner and financial security, good for him. Sounds like growth to me.

 

 

 

I would say that women who can control themselves and only have sex when they're good and ready are MORE likely to have successful LTRs and be happy. At least in my experience and observation. But YMMV.

 

 

 

I agree with LT that this is extremely sad. It says to me that, for you, relationships ARE very much about the sex. After all, that's the only thing they have to offer that's different, right? You said so yourself, so many different times and ways! Love isn't about finding a place-holder, and that's what you've just described. Making someone a romantic place-holder (you could be anyone within certain parameters, so long as you do x,y,z and so forth, but you're not SPECIAL!) is pretty sad. And cynical.

 

It's so sad, yet i'm very happy with my approach.

I guess then you also apply the "so sad" to every other guy in this thread who claims women did the same thing to them?

 

That's a lot of "sad" people.

[phineas]

Well, this doesn't seem very positive to me. It sounds to me like you don't really like empathizing with anyone unless they've proven some kind of worth to you, which to people like myself who view empathy as paramount, is a very distressing worldview. But that doesn't mean you're not entitled to your own worldview; I just think it sounds really selfish. And there's a huge difference between "venting about work" and "chirping about the same thing over and over again" or emotional tampon area.

 

The emotional tampon area usually includes the gal venting about other men she's dated/dating and such, and I agree, one should never look at anyone who does that (female or male venting about past/current ladies!) as potential SO material; they just don't see you that way or aren't in that place. Venting about a bad day at work is a normal social event. I guarantee you've vented before---perhaps not to women you're dating because it might put a damper on things and lessen the chance of sex, which is ultimately what you're after with them. And you've made that very clear by your comments, not your timeline.

 

 

 

I heard you say that. You work very hard to type women into particular groups, so that must be the only types of women you attract or the kind of relationships you cultivate. I believe you. I also know there are many other people with many other experiences out there. The plural of anecdote is not data.

 

So your insistence that a lady sleep with you within your timeframe is as much a protective measure as one woman waiting her particular timeframe might be. So be it. It means you won't be compatible with some women, but so what? You're not going to be compatible with everyone. What the women in this thread who've countered you have tried to provide are insights into OTHER reasons (other than what you've experienced) why women might wait. As someone who seems to put a low priority on general empathy (I'm not saying you have no empathy for your friends and family and such, but you don't seem inclined towards empathy for strangers or the general populace or women in general, in particular), I can see why that's not intrinsically valuable to you now, but it's not that anyone wasn't listening.

 

 

 

Sure, but that's not what I said dating was about. I said someone amazing who makes you feel wonderful to be around---there's more than just "having fun" to be done. There are people who truly touch your soul. At least that's my experience, with both friends and lovers.

 

 

 

If someone has to demand your time or "lock you down," then you're not really BF material in my eyes. BF material guys don't see relationships that way --- they see them as partnerships that they actively seek; they don't view them as restrictive, but a pathway to open up to new experiences (they may not use those words, mind you, but they aren't the "ball and chain" guys generally).

 

 

 

I believe you have self-protective measures you believe are legitimate, yes. Whether they work for you or not is your business. I do not think they constitute a reason for women not to wait is all. It's really important that a person (male or female) be ready before they take a major step like sexual intimacy. And that's the topic of this thread---reasons to wait (or not). Because phineas won't wait around doesn't sound like a good reason to me! I would, personally, never advise anyone to have sex simply because they're worried a guy will not wait around---that's a TERRIBLE reason to have sex. In that case, either the guy is a jerk who's just after sex or it's incompatibility. Either way, better not to sleep with the guy. At any rate: As I said, sex generally happens organically in most healthy relationships that last.

 

 

 

I would have no issue with a guy who became more sensible with his money over time. Most men (and women) do, as they grow older. If the man became needlessly stingy, that'd seem an overreaction to his past self, and I'd see that as a red flag of unfinished business, but if he used to blow his wad on GFs and decides he wants a real partner and financial security, good for him. Sounds like growth to me.

 

 

 

I would say that women who can control themselves and only have sex when they're good and ready are MORE likely to have successful LTRs and be happy. At least in my experience and observation. But YMMV.

 

 

 

I agree with LT that this is extremely sad. It says to me that, for you, relationships ARE very much about the sex. After all, that's the only thing they have to offer that's different, right? You said so yourself, so many different times and ways! Love isn't about finding a place-holder, and that's what you've just described. Making someone a romantic place-holder (you could be anyone within certain parameters, so long as you do x,y,z and so forth, but you're not SPECIAL!) is pretty sad. And cynical.

 

Any sadder than a woman who see's "player" at every corner?

 

I've already said I got no problem with women who wait with EVERY guy.

 

It's the one's who lead men on & make some guys wait while they get raunchy with other guys.

 

It happens & it's as a legitimate reason for a man to not hang around as a woman can come up with to wait.

 

I'm not sad. i'm quite happy. My method weeds out the attention whores, it works for me & it works for the other men in this thread.

 

So I guess their all "so sad" also?

 

That's a lot of "sad" people.

[phineas]

Yeah. Part of the problem seems to be many people's inability to know the other party's intentions (or perhaps the other party deliberately hiding their intentions). I don't know any of the men posting in this thread personally, but I'd imagine that if someone is unable to adequately gauge another's interest level (genuine interest vs leading them on) then sexual intimacy is probably the only way of knowing for sure. For women the opposite force tends to be the norm. It's not so much a "men want sex" thing, as it is a "they don't want to sink any emotional investment into someone who might not return the favor" thing. Similar setup with women as well.

 

There's risk no matter what you decide to do, so both men and women should just do what they feel comfortable with and let the chips fall where they may.

 

what I read from the women is I either imagined these women leading me on or i'm just a sad individual.

 

The thought that a man can be hurt just as much as a woman is not something they seem to want to admit to either.

 

But it happens. You spend months getting emotionally attached to a woman who has been feeding you lines about how she likes to take things slow then hops into bed with someone they hardly knew or was sleeping with someone the whole time.

 

The only way for me to not get emotionally attached to a woman i'm dating is to date other women or not treat her as a priority until sex is on the table.

and i'm not talking about once a week token sex to keep me paying attention.

 

But, as seen on the forum, man is damned if he does & damned if he doesn't.

If he get's burned, well that's his fault because nobody made him date the woman for months & months.

If he walks, well then he just wants sex.

 

IT's pure one-sided BS.

 

Me suspecting every woman of being a player is somehow worse than women suspecting every guy of being a player how?

 

Nobody seems to want to actually discuss this. They just dismiss it or act like it's some urban legend.