One issue with making a man wait for sex

[Emilia]

As I thought ......I think that sometimes men don't try to understand attraction, how it works, and how to generate it. As well as all that stuff you mentioned....being too nice is the deathtrap.

 

I agree with this, goes back to our conversation about good sex/bad sex. This is why casual sex with strangers doesn't really work that well half the time. I think people in general don't really know how attraction works, hence the focus on 'looks' when we know how important personality and non verbal signals, etc are. Probably could start a separate thread on this

[Titania22]

as phineas and emilia have said, i pretty much take their opinion in that regard, i don't make a habit of dating people i don't like being around.

 

and since i primarily meet women in the few bars i go to, that's easy enough to figure out. if i spend 2 or 3 hours talking to a woman i meet in a bar before we ever exchange numbers i get a pretty good idea on whether or not our personalities are similar.

 

of course if the woman is interested in casual/FWB type situations and i am as well i won't likely turn her down. but as i said in another post yesterday i don't lie to women, i'm honest about what i want and who i am. i see no need to lie.

 

and yes i have rejected women that were otherwise attractive to me who i could've gotten sex from, because other external factors made being with them a bad idea.

 

so i'm not taking advantage of women left and right just for sex. sex is honestly not hard to come by, if that's all you want.

 

the point i'm trying to convey is that for the same reason you all want to withhold sex, i am not willing to hang around. every time i have agreed to such a situation i have been the one taken advantage of. so no, i won't go without sex with a woman i'm dating to the 'commitment' stage. because honestly, all that is is a debate about who is going to show their cards first. and i have shown enough cards in approaching, chasing, etc. at that point it's her turn.

 

So simply, is your answer to my hypothetically situation, that you would dump her? Because from what you wrote, I am still not sure how you would react. Because in my question I didn't say, "a girl says she won't have sex with you because she will fall in love", I said "a girls tells you directly when the subject of sex comes up, that she will probably fall in love when the 2 of you have sex". She's been honest, laid the truth on the table in front of you. What do you do?

[LittleTiger]

you all want to withhold sex

 

For the umpteenth time - you guys just don't seem to get this - at the start of a relationship women are NOT withholding sex.

 

Withholding sex might be something a regular sex partner does in order to play games, punish, annoy, get even with, control (etc) a person he/she is in a long term relationship with. Withholding sex is not gender specific although it's a tool more frequently used by women against men. Someone cannot withhold sex unless sex is already an integral part of a relationship. It is only within a marriage or LTR that anyone has any right to 'expect' sex from another person and therefore has the power to withhold it. Withholding sex is generally a passive/aggressive attempt to take control. Depending on the relationship this may be justified or not.

 

Even in a LTR relationship 'refusing sex' is not necessarily 'withholding sex'. It could be that the person feels unwell, isn't feeling the closeness because of a recent argument or any other 1001 reasons. 'Withholding sex' is usually a longer term behaviour pattern designed deliberately to cause distress in the partner.

 

I think one of the problems here is that men seem to think they are 'entitled' to sex, just for paying a woman attention and spending time with her - hence the belief that she is 'withholding'. A woman's body belongs to her and she is entitled to wait as long as she wants to before she shares it with anyone.

 

At the start of a relationship, when two people are dating, sex is just a possibility and, if the attraction is mutual, something to be looked forward to when the time is right. It should not be 'expected' by either person until both individuals are ready. Therefore, at the start of a relationship a woman cannot, by definition, 'withhold sex'.

[LittleTiger]

As long as a woman respects me financially, I will respect her sexually.

 

But if for example a woman thinks that she is entitled to me spending money on her for the first four dates then it is also fair for me should I in turn choose to feel that Im entitled to sex from her by the fourth date.

 

The Golden Rule is the principle I live by.

 

musemaj11, your attitude to dating and relationships just smacks of prostitution. You pay cash, she spreads her legs!

 

If you think you have to 'buy' women, why bother with dating at all?

[Titania22]

It is only within a marriage or LTR that anyone has any right to 'expect' sex from another person and therefore has the power to withhold it.

 

Funny in my last relationship LTR and living together, my boyfriend said to me that i had no right to expect sex, that just because we were in a relationship didn't mean he was obliged to have sex with me.

[Emilia]

 

Yes, I've had casual sexual encounters, they were fun for a minute, then I was just empty and alone.

 

But if it's fun/something enjoyable then why does that move to the empty and alone stage? If you are after a relationship, having sex doesn't replace that no but I don't understand why you would regret interaction with another human being as long as it was pleasant at the time.

[LittleTiger]

Funny in my last relationship LTR and living together, my boyfriend said to me that i had no right to expect sex, that just because we were in a relationship didn't mean he was obliged to have sex with me.

 

I've always understood regular sex to be part of an unspoken contract in a LTR romantic relationship - assuming you haven't agreed celibacy of course. Within a marriage it could even be considered part of a 'spoken' contract although I'm not sure if there are any cultures where the marriage vows include a line saying 'I promise to have sex with you at least twice a week'.

 

If people want their relationships to last long term, sex is almost always a part of the equation. Presumably the lack of sex and his attitude towards it, and you, contributed to him becoming an 'ex'?

[Titania22]

But if it's fun/something enjoyable then why does that move to the empty and alone stage?

 

Because it just does. Because the desire to have sex didn't come from a place of wanting a bit of fun, if it did may as well just go bowling or something. It came from a longing to feel a connection to another human being. Outside of a relationship (and sometimes inside one), that feeling of connection is short lived.

 

And that feeling of emptiness can feel much worse than not having experienced the connection in the first place. Also the man saying something that drives the point home, that it really was nothing more to him then just a bit a fun, often strengthens that feeling of isolation.

[Titania22]

I've always understood regular sex to be part of an unspoken contract in a LTR romantic relationship - assuming you haven't agreed celibacy of course. Within a marriage it could even be considered part of a 'spoken' contract although I'm not sure if there are any cultures where the marriage vows include a line saying 'I promise to have sex with you at least twice a week'.

 

If people want their relationships to last long term, sex is almost always a part of the equation. Presumably the lack of sex and his attitude towards it, and you, contributed to him becoming an 'ex'?

 

Yes I thought so to at the time, which led to me feeling very confused and neglected. I stuck by him though, and eventually he left me. I loved him with my whole heart and desired him sexually. My desire for him made me want to have sex with him, but my love kept me by his side even without sex. (And I never cheated on him, and I only fantasized about him.)

 

I wonder what all the guys on here who think negative things about women would think of that. (Probably that i am lying.)

[LittleTiger]

But if it's fun/something enjoyable then why does that move to the empty and alone stage? If you are after a relationship, having sex doesn't replace that no but I don't understand why you would regret interaction with another human being as long as it was pleasant at the time.

 

Actions have consequences Emilia. If the negative consequences of an action outweigh the positive it's generally best not to repeat the action.

 

If you were to find that sex without love resulted in you developing a severe itchy rash all over your body or made you vomit sporadically for several weeks after an encounter - even if it was amazing sex - would you repeat it on a regular basis? If so, that would be rather foolish!

 

For you there may be no negative consequences, physically or emotionally, to having sex after just a few dates. For a lot of women, and some men, a sexual encounter with somebody who means very little to them emotionally results in a feeling of being empty and alone. It's not a great feeling and not one that most people choose to repeat once they've experienced it.

 

You may not understand it - but perhaps you can accept that many women are very different from you. I am a very confident and sexually experienced woman in her 40s and I love, love, love sex. I've experienced most levels of sexual and emotionally intimacy from one night stands, to FWB to LTR to a long term marriage. From experience I've learned that to allow a man I barely know, or even know but don't love, to touch me intimately is an invasion of my body, my privacy and my personal space. You clearly don't have that experience or those feelings which is fine for you - but we are all different.

[LittleTiger]

Yes I thought so to at the time, which led to me feeling very confused and neglected. I stuck by him though, and eventually he left me. I loved him with my whole heart and desired him sexually. My desire for him made me want to have sex with him, but my love kept me by his side even without sex. (And I never cheated on him, and I only fantasized about him.)

 

I wonder what all the guys on here who think negative things about women would think of that. (Probably that i am lying.)

 

What an awful situation - that must have been horrible for you . Good for you for remaining faithful, although it doesn't sound like he deserved your loyalty.

[oldguy]

Instant gratification versus projection; most men think in terms of instant gratification, that slowly changes but they want it now. It's believed its one of the contributing influences of predominant male incarceration. A larger percentage of men simply don't think in terms of cause & effect, of tomorrow or long term, they think in terms of today or "now". Most women on the other hand think in terms of tomorrow, (most of them, most of the time).

 

Famed psychologist; Philip Zimbardo, talks about this in a lecture titled; Are we seeing the demise of guys? He raises the concern that men may be loosing the ability to become intimate before becoming sexual. To dance & carry on a conversation before jumping in the sack. Personally speaking; sex with someone I'm intimate with has always been more satisfying than sex with a near stranger & sex over time with someone that I've gotten to know & has gotten to know me, intimately as a person & sexually is much more satisfying.

 

As I read threw much of this thread it began to sound like what some people where describing as what they expected from a date could just as easily be called a hooker in their eyes.

Edited January 17, 2012 by oldguy

[Titania22]

What an awful situation - that must have been horrible for you . Good for you for remaining faithful, although it doesn't sound like he deserved your loyalty.

 

Well I would love to find one that does deserve my loyalty. I really have no desire to be with more than one more man. I have no interest in playing games (other then computer, or possibly card or board games). I have no interest in lying or pretending to be what i am not. I know myself. I like myself. I have learnt enough hard lessons. I want to just enjoy what is left of my life, and I would prefer to share that with someone honourable, who can respect and even value those traits in me. I am incredibly loving, affection and do want to have lots of sex (preferably).

 

But I can't really enjoy sex if I don't think the person I am with cares about me. For me the best sex (i.e. the only sex worth having imo) happens when all guards are let down and I am completely vunerable, which is probably why it is so easy for me to fall in love after sex.

[zengirl]

the disease/pregnancy points have no merit because they are just as valid after 6 months as they are after 6 days.

 

Not really. There is a VERY big difference between an accidental pregnancy from a 3rd date and one in a long-term committed relationship that's been around awhile. Neither is ideal, obviously, but many committed or even married couples have "accidental" babies. It's a totally different thing than people who don't even know how much they like together being thrust into that situation. And no matter how careful anyone is, the pregnancy risk is hard to get 100% away from.

 

Also, as far as diseases go---unless you're actually requesting medical documentation (which seems crass to me), you have to go on what the person says. Therefore, how well you know the person (which is partially determined by how long you've know the person!) is important in terms of trusting them and deciding they are serious about their well-being and yours.

 

Attachment builds organically and mutually. A throw down on a slow night is all well and good but it isn't a relationship it's a bodily function. Time tells so much. Is he a man of his word? When he's not feeling well doeshe takeout out on those around him? How does he react to conflict? Does he live out the values he professes? Is he responsible?

 

[snip]

 

Any one can tell me anything. Words are cheap. Actions are far more telling. The only solution is to spend time.

 

I've said before and will repeat. Impatient, dishonorable, immature men can move along. I have a job, a family and a home. None of it is worth risking on an unworthy make with entitlement issues.

 

All very well-explained. "Withholding sex" as a power play would be pretty silly, but I've found that most women who wait before they have sex --- especially if they wait a long time --- are just trying to make well-informed decisions and do what's best for their own personal well-being in terms of avoiding any unnecessarily destructive behavior. Not that there are guarantees; that's not the idea. The idea is that it's important that people do what empowers and satisfies them.

 

That said, if someone wants to wait longer than you do, then you have every right to move on if that's what's most important to you. In that case, you weren't what they were looking for anyway!

 

as phineas and emilia have said, i pretty much take their opinion in that regard, i don't make a habit of dating people i don't like being around.

 

I don't think anyone really does try to go on dates with people they don't like (maybe a few, but it's rare and draining), but it takes time and a lot of communication to see if intimacy is going to be established, if compatibility is there, and if two people want the same things. The truth is, dating is the process of figuring out whether the person is right for you. I don't see how you guys do that before the first date unless you were always very good friends for years first -- just knowing some guy from a bar would not determine that for me. It would determine if he was cute or charming or smart or interesting, but not if he were a potential life mate.

 

For the umpteenth time - you guys just don't seem to get this - at the start of a relationship women are NOT withholding sex.

 

[snip]

 

I think one of the problems here is that men seem to think they are 'entitled' to sex, just for paying a woman attention and spending time with her - hence the belief that she is 'withholding'. A woman's body belongs to her and she is entitled to wait as long as she wants to before she shares it with anyone.

 

At the start of a relationship, when two people are dating, sex is just a possibility and, if the attraction is mutual, something to be looked forward to when the time is right. It should not be 'expected' by either person until both individuals are ready. Therefore, at the start of a relationship a woman cannot, by definition, 'withhold sex'.

 

Yep. Well-said. Especially the bolded. An expectation of sex before someone is ready is quite disturbing.

 

But if it's fun/something enjoyable then why does that move to the empty and alone stage? If you are after a relationship, having sex doesn't replace that no but I don't understand why you would regret interaction with another human being as long as it was pleasant at the time.

 

Because not everyone reacts to sex the same way you do. Many women (and some men) feel that without the intimacy, closeness, and commitment that sex is more self-destructive---like coming down from a drug high or a night of drunkenness or eating too much chocolate---than it's worth. Not all, mind you. Some are fine with ONS or flings or whatever, and some are not. But everyone has different views on sex and their own sexuality.

 

There's nothing wrong with saying casual sex is wrong for you; IMO, casual sex is like fast food. I'm not saying it's going to kill people quickly, though a steady diet doesn't seem to prove healthy over time if you observe long-term players (male or female), and many people seem to find it natural -- at least the average person seems to think so -- to have some of it over your lifetime, but certainly no one can be lectured for giving it up because they find they feel like crap afterwards.

[thatone]

Funny in my last relationship LTR and living together, my boyfriend said to me that i had no right to expect sex, that just because we were in a relationship didn't mean he was obliged to have sex with me.

 

then you should understand exactly where i'm coming from. been there, done that.

 

that's why i have the opinion i have now.

[blueskyday]

I would expect and desire sex in a LTR unless there was a situation that precluded it. Sex and exclusive intimacy is what makes lovers lovers and not merely friends.

 

As for having sex, I only have one rule. I have sex when I want to. In a relationship, it's all the time. But, I'm not having sex with some random guy at a bar. There is more on my checklist than attractive and sexy.

 

Gee, I qualify my home contractors more than that!

 

I am a bit tired of some guys treating me like an object, or a hooker. So what if we have a great first date. So what if I'm attracted to you. So what if you can't keep your hands off of me. Hey, I want you too, but let's slow down for a minute and let emotional and mental energy catch up.

 

It takes a bit more than that for me to go to bed with someone. I want more than a d#ck and would like a guy who wants more than an object to screw.

 

I don't mind a guy showing me sexual interest.I love it! Obviously, we wouldn't be on a date unless there was attraction. But, please take no for a (temporary) answer. I prefer to in an exclusive situation first. I understand physical and emotional intimacy feed each other. As soon as we can, I will rip your clothes off.

 

But there needs to be affection, some trust, and a feeling that we are going to give it a go beyond the one night. I've got a great vibrator that will give me an awesome orgasm for that.

 

It's not a compliment if a guy who doesn't know me wants to f#ck me. But, if he knows me and wants to f#ck me, and I feel the same, then let's go!

 

Really, it's not hard to understand. Sex is wonderful, fun, and should be wild and free. Most women need to know a guy has got her back emotionally before she can let go with him.

 

He does that by spending some time with her, showing her he sees ALL of her, and shows he cares about her feelings.

 

Sex is PART of the whole, and is amazing.

Edited January 17, 2012 by blueskyday

[Titania22]

then you should understand exactly where i'm coming from. been there, done that.

 

that's why i have the opinion i have now.

 

That was inside of an LTR, not someone I had just met. And if anything it taught me i should get to know someone even better before I have sex with them. I fell completely in love with him, and yet he wasn't a good match for me in other ways. And the relationship was really destructive for my children, but I was blind to their suffering, because all i could see was my love for him.

[thatone]

That was inside of an LTR, not someone I had just met. And if anything it taught me i should get to know someone even better before I have sex with them. I fell completely in love with him, and yet he wasn't a good match for me in other ways. And the relationship was really destructive for my children, but I was blind to their suffering, because all i could see was my love for him.

 

guy in another thread said he got strung along for a year and a half. is that long term enough?

 

my personal best record is 5 months, with a girl that would refuse sex but then initiate other forms of communication to feign interest, all while seeing how far she could push the boundary of little contact in person until i put my foot down, at which time she promptly disappeared. she just liked the idea of having a boyfriend, near as i could tell.

 

what's your threshold for "long term"?

[Titania22]

guy in another thread said he got strung along for a year and a half. is that long term enough?

 

my personal best record is 5 months, with a girl that would refuse sex but then initiate other forms of communication to feign interest, all while seeing how far she could push the boundary of little contact in person until i put my foot down, at which time she promptly disappeared. she just liked the idea of having a boyfriend, near as i could tell.

 

what's your threshold for "long term"?

 

Surely these are extreme examples thatone, and now learning from them you can recognise the difference between being strung along by someone and someone with genuine interest in you, without going to the other extreme of expecting it all to happen under a fast time schedule.

 

Alternatively you could just start a youtube vlog, expressing your thoughts and feelings about day to day life. Then when you meet a girl and get along and you are ready for sex and she isn't, direct her to watch all the episodes of your vlog. After she does that, she will know if she really likes you or not, and then be she will be ready for sex if she does. Because then she can have crammed months of getting to know you into a short space of time, without wasting your time. And you can just make it a requirement of anyone you start dating that they have to watch some number of episodes or you won't continue to see them.

 

I know that idea might sound out there or stupid, or designed only for the attractive guy who are confident. But seriously a girl can be moved and even attracted to a man she previously thought of as unattractive, because she feels she understands him better, and seeing a guy in a setting where he isn't actually hitting on her and being overtly sexual can be a big relief to a girl, especially if guys are always hitting on her.

 

It's just an idea that I have been thinking of for a while to bridge the divide between women needing more time to get to know someone and men being ready without that knowledge.

[thatone]

Surely these are extreme examples thatone, and now learning from them you can recognise the difference between being strung along by someone and someone with genuine interest in you, without going to the other extreme of expecting it all to happen under a fast time schedule.

 

Alternatively you could just start a youtube vlog, expressing your thoughts and feelings about day to day life. Then when you meet a girl and get along and you are ready for sex and she isn't, direct her to watch all the episodes of your vlog. After she does that, she will know if she really likes you or not, and then be she will be ready for sex if she does. Because then she can have crammed months of getting to know you into a short space of time, without wasting your time. And you can just make it a requirement of anyone you start dating that they have to watch some number of episodes or you won't continue to see them.

 

I know that idea might sound out there or stupid, or designed only for the attractive guy who are confident. But seriously a girl can be moved and even attracted to a man she previously thought of as unattractive, because she feels she understands him better, and seeing a guy in a setting where he isn't actually hitting on her and being overtly sexual can be a big relief to a girl, especially if guys are always hitting on her.

 

It's just an idea that I have been thinking of for a while to bridge the divide between women needing more time to get to know someone and men being ready without that knowledge.

 

yeah, they are extreme examples, but then again fairly common. bad people from both sexes take advantage of each other, that is not specific to one or the other.

 

as i said in previous pages in this thread, it's somewhat of a catch 22. women want commitment, men won't commit to a woman before sex is on the table.

 

so what's the solution? for a person trying to keep their sanity (me) i can really only be with women who are equally attracted and also have a comparable desire for sex.

 

just as i can't demand sex from a woman who doesn't want to have sex with me, a woman can't expect me to jump through hoops to prove myself worthy of a relationship/marriage with her that i'm not even sure i want yet before we're having sex. i am not begging for her attention, i am looking for a partner.

[Titania22]

yeah, they are extreme examples, but then again fairly common. bad people from both sexes take advantage of each other, that is not specific to one or the other.

 

as i said in previous pages in this thread, it's somewhat of a catch 22. women want commitment, men won't commit to a woman before sex is on the table.

 

so what's the solution? for a person trying to keep their sanity (me) i can really only be with women who are equally attracted and also have a comparable desire for sex.

 

just as i can't demand sex from a woman who doesn't want to have sex with me, a woman can't expect me to jump through hoops to prove myself worthy of a relationship/marriage with her that i'm not even sure i want yet before we're having sex. i am not begging for her attention, i am looking for a partner.

 

Obviously no one should expect anyone to jump through hoops for them. And there are bad people men and women who take advantage of people.

And ultimately our choice is to accept a bit of risk in the hope we found a good one, or not accept any risk and just agree to protect ourselves by remaining single. And you men have the advantage that you can always frequent prostitutes thereby having your sex and protecting your heart.

 

For a woman who needs to feel an emotional connection to fully enjoy sex, i somehow don't see a male prostitute providing that service as part of his job. (I could be wrong, it just seems unlikely.)

 

Another question:

 

When you start seeing a woman do you open up and share some of yourself (which is not the same as complaining about things you hate) so she will feel closer to you, and thus feel more inclined to move towards sex? Because I can tell you from my own experience, a guy getting me to open up to him does not make me feel closer to him, but a guy who is willing to share some of himself does. To me great sex is about vunerability. When I person can share some of their inner self, it tells me they are willing to see if i am worthy of their trust, and that breaks down walls between us so that intimacy can happen. It is no different then the vunerability and trust a woman shows you when she allows you to penetrate her body.

 

And this is not the same thing as proving you are relationship material. Which you would understandably want to put off until you know if there is sexual compatibility.

[thatone]

as i said before, i'll give my life story to a waitress if she'll listen .

 

i don't lie to women, i have nothing to hide from anyone.

 

so yes, i will freely discuss my past, my issues, my positives/negatives, my financial situation, my wants and desires.

 

and i get the idea of people having a different pace for a multitude of things. but then again, all of my stories are gonna 'check out' because they're all true. so after a couple of months if a woman i'm dating is still mistrusting me, it's her that has trust issues, not me.

[LittleTiger]

I read your last post thatone and it just struck me that, if you think women aren't trusting you fast enough, perhaps it's because you're are not sharing enough of your soul.

 

You say that you would tell your life story to a waitress? That's all well and good and suggest you are very open and honest, with nothing to hide. However, if you are the kind of person who shares everything about themselves with everyone, any women you are dating will know that. Telling her what you're willing to tell a waitress is not making yourself vulnerable in any way.

 

Therefore, you have to go one stage further to prove you are willing to be vulnerable with her and to prove you are trustworthy. You have to give her something that nobody else knows - or at least only people you are very close to. You have to share something about yourself that is essentially 'private' so that she feels special and she knows that you trust her. When she believes that you trust her, she will allow herself to trust you.

 

You are asking her to share a special part of herself, which she reserves only for intimate partners - you need to do the same.

[zengirl]

Yes, it's REALLY not flattering to basically be told that you're not particularly special. People who'd share anything with anyone are not allowing any special space for a partner or any other important people in their lives.

 

as i said in previous pages in this thread, it's somewhat of a catch 22. women want commitment, men won't commit to a woman before sex is on the table.

 

Plenty of men will, though. Especially if it's the right woman and they're looking for more than just sex. So, it's not a real Catch-22. I never had issues with the men I actually thought were relationship material in terms of being committed before having sex. Which is not to say that everyone has to be any one way, but you're setting up a false Catch-22.

 

Also, plenty of women foolishly have sex early thinking it will lead to commitment. It doesn't necessarily, so that's the problem. If a woman is having sex early PURELY to have sex, I think that's all well and good. The reason women are encouraged to "wait" is in the case where they are seeking a real relationship and not interested in being potentially jerked around or having sex without knowing where it is leading. Some men don't like to be in that position either, frankly. For most, waiting isn't a power-play; it's simply knowing what you want and don't want.

[thatone]

well, if you don't make a habit of leading men on, then you wouldn't run into the issue we're talking about from the man's side of the table.

 

but given the opportunity to be in a man's shoes for a few months and i guarantee you would see it.

 

and i will agree that men cannot be 'caught' with sex. that's a given. we just aren't wired that way.