Is it best for Average people to Date Average people and give up their dreams?

[EnigmaticClarity]

lol at this rubbish.. where do you come up with top 20% and how d oyou judge if a women is i nthe top 20%?

 

Just being thin and not facially hideous does that put a women i nthe top 20% havign all her teeth? what?

 

She's referring to the top 20% of women who are thin and not horribly unattractive that KathyM described in some detail. Refer back to her posts if you overlooked it, her analysis seemed ballpark accurate to me.

[xxoo]

No, most of the same attributes (charm, money, etc) make women far more desirable than ones who lack them. Height may be the only major difference, but that's somewhat helpful to women as well.

 

But a woman MUST be physically attractive to be highly desirable. Charm and money won't do it if the physical is not there.

 

Men can become highly desirable through just charm (Hugh Grant cast as a leading man) or just money (Trump).

[Michael30]

or just money (Trump).

 

Those are classified as gold-digging tramps, not women who are seriously looking for a compatible partner.

[EnigmaticClarity]

But a woman MUST be physically attractive to be highly desirable. Charm and money won't do it if the physical is not there.

 

Men can become highly desirable through just charm (Hugh Grant cast as a leading man) or just money (Trump).

 

Money isn't the majority what has made Trump so desirable, personality is. Since when is Hugh Grant not considered attractive? He's about a 7 or 8, which is about average amongst actors and actresses, they're rarely as attractive as models, although it definitely helps. Plenty of popular actresses are only slightly above average or average as well--Sarah Jessica Parker (glad she didn't get the nose job), Renee Zellweger (banana body with a face that looks like she's been sucking on lemons), Meryl Streep, Queen Latifah, Ellen DeGeneres, Rosanne Barr, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah Winfrey, etc, etc, etc.

 

Men still have it a little easier and are more often accepted in ways women aren't, but it's not at all lopsided towards men. All these "men have it easy" or "women have it easy" slants are rather biased and subjective.

[xxoo]

Money isn't the majority what has made Trump so desirable, personality is. Since when is Hugh Grant not considered attractive? He's about a 7 or 8, which is about average amongst actors and actresses, they're rarely as attractive as models, although it definitely helps. Plenty of popular actresses are only slightly above average or average as well--Sarah Jessica Parker (glad she didn't get the nose job), Renee Zellweger (banana body with a face that looks like she's been sucking on lemons), Meryl Streep, Queen Latifah, Ellen DeGeneres, Rosanne Barr, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah Winfrey, etc, etc, etc.

 

Trump got Marla Maples before he was a tv personality. That was ALL money. His personality isn't really that appealing to women.

 

Hugh Grant is not sex symbol attractive. He filled theaters with women because of his charm. We wanted to be wooed by a guy like that--right up until the point that he got arrested for soliciting a prostitute

 

That list of female actresses--I'm talking about being desirable to men, not successful in a market of women. Those women are rich and successful, but many of them repel men

[betterdeal]

His personality got money.

[xxoo]

His personality got money.

 

No argument there!

 

But his money got the women

[EnigmaticClarity]

Trump got Marla Maples before he was a tv personality. That was ALL money. His personality isn't really that appealing to women.

 

Hugh Grant is not sex symbol attractive. He filled theaters with women because of his charm. We wanted to be wooed by a guy like that--right up until the point that he got arrested for soliciting a prostitute

 

That list of female actresses--I'm talking about being desirable to men, not successful in a market of women. Those women are rich and successful, but many of them repel men

 

Trump is alpha, and women go for that. He'd have an easy time with women whether he had money or not. ANY of those women I listed will have no problem finding men because of their personality, money, and fame.

 

Emily Blunt is the female Hugh Grant--they're incredibly similar in body and personality. Neither is gorgeous enough to be a sex symbol, yet both are hugely attractive to the opposite sex because of their charm.

 

There are plenty of men and women with and without looks who are attractive because of other factors. These examples/counterexamples could go on for days. I agree that men have it easier when they lack looks, probably 60/40, but looks aren't the all-encompassing, single requisite stat you're making it out to be.

[kaylan]

Trump is alpha, and women go for that. He'd have an easy time with women whether he had money or not. ANY of those women I listed will have no problem finding men because of their personality, money, and fame.

 

Emily Blunt is the female Hugh Grant--they're incredibly similar in body and personality. Neither is gorgeous enough to be a sex symbol, yet both are hugely attractive to the opposite sex because of their charm.

 

There are plenty of men and women with and without looks who are attractive because of other factors. These examples/counterexamples could go on for days. I agree that men have it easier when they lack looks, probably 60/40, but looks aren't the all-encompassing, single requisite stat you're making it out to be.

LMAO @ what you said about Donald Trump. Hed do piss poor with even average women if he wasnt rich. Lets be real dude...unattractive folks with money only get hot mates because of it. If more women were rich, wed have more male gold diggers/mooches and more pool guy boy toys as well. However, women rarely date down when they become super successful.

 

Hugh Grant and Emily Blunt have personality to go along with good looks. They arent 10s, but still pretty attractive folks. If they looked like Mark Henry or Hillary Clinton, then charm wouldnt do jack to make them appealing to people. Lets be serious.

 

People can be attractive without looks, but not to many people, and usually not attractive in a physical aspect. Donald Trump, for example, doesnt have women thinking hes physically attractive. Whats attractive is the lifestyle he can provide young women.

 

Real talk.

Edited January 19, 2012 by kaylan

[xxoo]

ANY of those women I listed will have no problem finding men because of their personality, money, and fame.

 

First of all, at least 2 are gay, lol.

 

Second, if they could get a very desirable man, why haven't they? Even at the height of her fame, Roseanne Barr was with Tom Arnold

 

SJP and Renee have dated attractive, successful men, but they both have the requisite thin body type.

 

Emily Blunt is the female Hugh Grant--they're incredibly similar in body and personality. Neither is gorgeous enough to be a sex symbol, yet both are hugely attractive to the opposite sex because of their charm.

 

I see NO comparison between Emily and Hugh, as far as physical attractiveness goes

 

Take away the fame and the charm, I wouldn't give Hugh a second look. This man dated Elizabeth Hurley for over a decade!!

[betterdeal]

No argument there!

 

But his money got the women

 

His personality got him money and women. But even if we run with your assertion that he basically only gets prostitutes, it is still down to his personality. You see a linear causation between money and women in Trump's life. The money is causes by personality. So if you think you need to be rich to succeed with women, go make money.

 

I see a personality that is doing things it likes doing, and that's attractive. Not to all, but to some; certainly enough to fulfil his lifetime needs. His wealth is coincidental to his success in mating. Maybe not with a particular woman - maybe one or two of them in his life have been there for the money - but he could be penniless and he'd still be organising things and scrambling around the dirt bowl called life and basically engaging in the way he sees fit to, and that's what makes him attractive.

[EnigmaticClarity]

LMAO @ what you said about Donald Trump. Hed do piss poor with even average women if he wasnt rich. Lets be real dude...unattractive folks with money only get hot mates because of it. If more women were rich, wed have more male gold diggers/mooches and more pool guy boy toys as well. However, women rarely date down when they become super successful.

 

Trump would do great with AVERAGE women, but yea, he wouldn't get the models he's been getting, and even women in the 7-8 range would be a stretch for him. He's got charm and confidence, but not THAT much charm, although he's got the ambition to develop it if he wanted to. Physically unattractive people of either sex can't date up unless they have singularly outstanding attributes to make up for it--money, personality, power, fame, etc.

[xxoo]

I see a personality that is doing things it likes doing, and that's attractive. Not to all, but to some; certainly enough to fulfil his lifetime needs. His wealth is coincidental to his success in mating. Maybe not with a particular woman - maybe one or two of them in his life have been there for the money - but he could be penniless and he'd still be organising things and scrambling around the dirt bowl called life and basically engaging in the way he sees fit to, and that's what makes him attractive.

 

Do you think Melania or Marla would have slept with him without the money?

 

NO WAY.

[EnigmaticClarity]

I see NO comparison between Emily and Hugh, as far as physical attractiveness goes

 

Take away the fame and the charm, I wouldn't give Hugh a second look. This man dated Elizabeth Hurley for over a decade!!

 

Don't know what your issue is with Hugh's looks, but you're clearly underestimating them. That's just how people are, although I'm usually more able to recognize looks even when someone isn't my type, I know most people aren't that objective or interested in the physical aesthetics of both sexes like I am though. I put both Grant and Blunt at 7 or 8. Hugh's body is near-ideal at 5' 11" and thin, and his face is WELL above average. He's not Johnny Depp, Ryan Gosling, or Tom Cruise in the face, but jesus, he's VERY attractive, well above-average and just below those top actors in looks.

Edited January 19, 2012 by EnigmaticClarity

[verhrzn]

I think what XXOO is trying to say is that if a guy isn't physically attractive, he can make it up with some combination of money, personality, or humor. (In Trump's case, I'd guess it's 70% money, 30% confident personality.)

 

In women, however, there really is no way to make up the deficit of being physically unattractive. Being rich or having a charming personality will only take you so far as a woman if you're ugly or fat. You'll have a much harder time finding a guy willing to "overlook" your physically unattractiveness, even though you have all these other awesome attributes, than an unattractive rich will have finding a woman to overlook HIS ugliness.

 

Even this thread is a good example. Guys have been shouting down Kathy for suggesting that they take into consideration a woman's other qualities (kindness, generosity, humor, intelligence, money) saying that it's not FAIR they have to "lower their standards!" to ugliness. Most female posters, on the other hand, have said they'd be more than happy to accept a guy who isn't necessarily attractive if he's got other amazing qualities.

[kaylan]

Have you seen Oprah?...she even has a boyfriend.

 

If someone has money, make or female, they can get a mate IMO

[kaylan]

Trump would do great with AVERAGE women, but yea, he wouldn't get the models he's been getting, and even women in the 7-8 range would be a stretch for him. He's got charm and confidence, but not THAT much charm, although he's got the ambition to develop it if he wanted to. Physically unattractive people of either sex can't date up unless they have singularly outstanding attributes to make up for it--money, personality, power, fame, etc.

Lol, you gotta be kidding me.

 

Without money he would only be getting women in his league of looks. Maybe slightly better. Lets be real here.

 

Next your gonna tell me Anna Nicole Smiths husband could have gotten her if he wasnt rich.

 

Truth of the matter is that without the money, confidence isnt gonna do jack for a guy like Trump when it comes to 7/8s. Itd work for women on his level though, but not much higher.

 

Fame and Money is usually what lets people date up. You overestimate personality when it comes to the rich. A great personality only does so much

Edited January 19, 2012 by kaylan

[xxoo]

Hugh's body is near-ideal at 5' 11" and thin, and his face is WELL above average.

 

I'll admit, I don't see it.

 

But I'm not attracted to "thin" in a man.

[betterdeal]

Do you think Melania or Marla would have slept with him without the money?

 

NO WAY.

 

What is it you want us to say or do for you?

[EnigmaticClarity]

Lol, you gotta be kidding me.

 

Without money he would only be getting women in his league of looks. Maybe slightly better. Lets be real here.

 

You just said the exact same thing I did, yet for some reason you think we're in disagreement--not sure why.

 

The one thing we're disagreeing on is whether or not a guy like Trump could date slightly above his physical station with just personality. I've seen enough examples to suggest in my own life (my stepsister is a 7 and is idylically married to a very charming but overweight and slightly-below average-looking 3, her mooning over his romantic and funny nature constantly on Facebook amazes me every time I look at his picture) and in the media (Neil Strauss and tons of others) to believe he absolutely can, although he'd have to work on his image and personality.

[xxoo]

What is it you want us to say or do for you?

 

I'm arguing that men can be highly desireable without being physically attractive, and women can not.

 

It doesn't require anything from you at all

[kaylan]

Lets be real here. Someone who looks like Trump, male or female, but it rich...wont have problems finding a mate. Many people out there would love to have a completely new, fun, and comfortable lifestyle that comes with that person. Lets not pretend that these pretty things and boy toys dont have their fun on the side with someone their own age. Id bet my life that a lot of them do have something on the side.

 

If you take away the cash though, personality isnt gonna keep a person around someone they arent physically attracted to. We see this in regular marriages, that men and women will stay in a marriage with someone they arent sexually attracted to for the security. If the security starts to wane, they bail...just read the threads on this forum and others.

 

Plenty of women stick with a guy because he takes care of them, despite lack of attraction. And that wouldnt be happening if the security ran out.

[EnigmaticClarity]

I think what XXOO is trying to say is that if a guy isn't physically attractive, he can make it up with some combination of money, personality, or humor. (In Trump's case, I'd guess it's 70% money, 30% confident personality.)

 

In women, however, there really is no way to make up the deficit of being physically unattractive. Being rich or having a charming personality will only take you so far as a woman if you're ugly or fat. You'll have a much harder time finding a guy willing to "overlook" your physically unattractiveness, even though you have all these other awesome attributes, than an unattractive rich will have finding a woman to overlook HIS ugliness.

 

Even this thread is a good example. Guys have been shouting down Kathy for suggesting that they take into consideration a woman's other qualities (kindness, generosity, humor, intelligence, money) saying that it's not FAIR they have to "lower their standards!" to ugliness. Most female posters, on the other hand, have said they'd be more than happy to accept a guy who isn't necessarily attractive if he's got other amazing qualities.

 

This is true of women who expect men to take the traditional alpha role, which admittedly is the great majority of women, that I'll agree with. If you're unwilling to make first moves and hit on men to even show them your outstanding attributes when you lack physical beauty, then yea, sitting there looking not-pretty isn't going to get you men.

 

Unattractive men get women only when they go out there and actually get them. Unattractive men AND women don't get anybody waiting around for someone to sweep them off their feet.

[kaylan]

I'm arguing that men can be highly desireable without being physically attractive, and women can not.

 

It doesn't require anything from you at all

I think women can be desirable without being physically attractive. Just give them the same status and money rich guys have. Lets not pretend female politicians and rich gals are single, because they arent. If there were more rich women out there, you can damn well bet thered be young guys willing to take the plunge with her for the sake of getting a new lifestyle. The reason we dont see this more is because most powerful people are men, and because women rarely date down.

 

But someone is screwing the ugly rich gals out there, and if they want a pretty boy toy, money could get it.

You just said the exact same thing I did, yet for some reason you think we're in disagreement--not sure why.

 

The one thing we're disagreeing on is whether or not a guy like Trump could date slightly above his physical station with just personality. I've seen enough examples to suggest in my own life (my stepsister is a 7 and is idylically married to a very charming but overweight and slightly-below average-looking 3, her mooning over his romantic and funny nature constantly on Facebook amazes me every time I look at his picture) and in the media (Neil Strauss and tons of others) to believe he absolutely can, although he'd have to work on his image and personality.

Lol pickup artists mean nothing. You act like there arent threads on this forum of guys dating girls with lesser looks. Exceptions dont make the rule.

[verhrzn]

If you take away the cash though, personality isnt gonna keep a person around someone they arent physically attracted to. We see this in regular marriages, that men and women will stay in a marriage with someone they arent sexually attracted to for the security. If the security starts to wane, they bail...just read the threads on this forum and others.

 

Plenty of women stick with a guy because he takes care of them, despite lack of attraction. And that wouldnt be happening if the security ran out.

 

That's the point... women don't have anything except their looks to give a guy a reason to stick around. Please, can we have some media examples of rich ugly women with good looking men?