Is it best for Average people to Date Average people and give up their dreams?

[xxoo]

The one thing we're disagreeing on is whether or not a guy like Trump could date slightly above his physical station with just personality.

 

I don't disagree with that at all!

 

I definitely think Trump's wives reflect his money, but personality can make an unattractive man desirable. Charming is one example of that.

 

Question is, would the "average" guys here lamenting their singlehood be attracted to a physically unattractive woman with a GREAT personality? Lots of money? Charm?

 

So far, the answer has been no.

[verhrzn]

This is true of women who expect men to take the traditional alpha role, which admittedly is the great majority of women, that I'll agree with. If you're unwilling to make first moves and hit on men to even show them your outstanding attributes when you lack physical beauty, then yea, sitting there looking not-pretty isn't going to get you men.

 

Unattractive men get women only when they go out there and actually get them. Unattractive men AND women don't get anybody waiting around for someone to sweep them off their feet.

 

Sorry to rehash an old debate, but this is just not true. I've approached a couple of guys, and either gotten cruelly mocked or friend-zoned. I have TONS of male friends who think I'm awesome and fun and fantastic.... but I'm not attractive, so they don't want to date me. There are even some guys who could have potentially liked me, but I was too "aggressive" (talking to them and pursuing them) and it turned them off.

 

It's said over and over again, men are visual creatures, men need mates they're physically attracted to. That's why you have posters defending Somedude's right to his young, thin, big-boobs, long-hair standard, and why guys defend every thread where the husband complains about his wife getting fat.

 

Compare that to the very rare thread of a woman posting that her husband has gained weight, she either gets shouted down for being shallow, or gently encouraged to see all the positives about her husband. There are very rarely posters who defend her right to sit her husband down and tell him he's gotten too fat to be physically attractive to her, but that attitude pops up all the time when the genders are reversed.

[Ross MwcFan]

Dating a below average girl would be beyond my wildest dreams.

[kaylan]

Verhrzn, See my last post...if you were rich I doubt youd have trouble finding guys do date you. Im surprised you even have problems now.

 

Btw, there are plenty of visual women out there. Most couple match up in attractiveness and thats not just because the man picked the woman. The woman has to pick the guy as well.

 

Plus the bar and club scene is a huge meat market and women are all about being visual when it comes to their selections there.

[verhrzn]

Verhrzn, See my last post...if you were rich I doubt youd have trouble finding guys do date you. Im surprised you even have problems now.

 

Btw, there are plenty of visual women out there. Most couple match up in attractiveness and thats not just because the man picked the woman. The woman has to pick the guy as well.

 

Plus the bar and club scene is a huge meat market and women are all about being visual when it comes to their selections there.

 

Well I'm not rich, but I have a very good job. I have a better income than a lot of my peers. Yet... it's always the hot girls guys want. Guys really don't care all that much about my job, or even all that much my personality. Yeah, a personality is nice, but only if attached to a hot body, and yeah, money is nice, but again, only if attached to a hot body.

 

An ugly guy just needs a decent job and a decent personality (or a bad job but a fantastic personality) to make up for his ugliness. I apparently have to be rich AND have a fantastic personality. See the double standard?

 

And while some women are visual and some men are emotional, the majority of men are visual. The men that aren't so visual and care about a girl's personality or value her beyond her looks are guaranteed to already be married or engaged, because they are rarer but in very high demand.

[aj22one]

Well I'm not rich, but I have a very good job. I have a better income than a lot of my peers. Yet... it's always the hot girls guys want. Guys really don't care all that much about my job, or even all that much my personality. Yeah, a personality is nice, but only if attached to a hot body, and yeah, money is nice, but again, only if attached to a hot body.

 

An ugly guy just needs a decent job and a decent personality (or a bad job but a fantastic personality) to make up for his ugliness. I apparently have to be rich AND have a fantastic personality. See the double standard?

 

And while some women are visual and some men are emotional, the majority of men are visual. The men that aren't so visual and care about a girl's personality or value her beyond her looks are guaranteed to already be married or engaged, because they are rarer but in very high demand.

 

I've said before that I don't want to poo poo your experiences, but what you're saying just doesn't jive with what I've experienced. Plenty of my friends (fairly normal to good looking guys) are dating women that aren't all that great looking, because they have great personalities.

 

In fact the girl I wrote about in my last thread, the one I probably would have married if it had been possible, was no stunner. She wasn't slim (not morbidly obese either) and wore hardly any makeup and never any fancy clothes. Yet something about her just made me attracted, I can't explain it. Maybe it was personality and common interests, I don't know. Even after she had been up since 4 a.m. studying for exams, no makeup on, looking like death warmed over all I could think was "damn, she's sexy". Plenty of guys are the same way. It sounds like you've just met a bunch of complete jerks.

[betterdeal]

I'm arguing that men can be highly desireable without being physically attractive, and women can not.

 

It doesn't require anything from you at all

 

Oh! I agree that looks are more stringent a criteria for more men than they are for women, but we're veering away from the here and now for most of the people on this thread into the realms of the absurd, i.e. real outliers like billionaires and supermodels.

 

I see plenty of plain, fat, or ugly women with partners. Anyone can by going to any supermarket in the world. The biggest factor determining success is turning up in my view. There are women who want to date and men who want to date and if you turn up you are much more likely to meet one of them.

 

These guys here who are trotting out spurious appearance requirements are blowing smoke up their arses. But that's okay, I think being rational all the time is overrated. Women will, on occasion, sit around having a all men are bastards nag and moan session, and men will sit around having a look at the arse on that sessions. It always was and always will be.

 

Doesn't make any of them particularly bad people. If the needle gets stuck and they end up repeating the same old crap all the time, more than anything, they become frightfully boring which is the death knell for any romantic encounter, regardless your looks, weight, height, wealth.

[xxoo]

These guys here who are trotting out spurious appearance requirements are blowing smoke up their arses. But that's okay, I think being rational all the time is overrated. Women will, on occasion, sit around having a all men are bastards nag and moan session, and men will sit around having a look at the arse on that sessions. It always was and always will be.

 

Good post.

 

Esp this part!

[somedude81]

It's said over and over again, men are visual creatures, men need mates they're physically attracted to.

And women do as well.

 

Just because you, yourself may have lower standards than most women does not discount that point.

 

Women only want to date a man they are physically attracted to.

Verhrzn, See my last post...if you were rich I doubt youd have trouble finding guys do date you. Im surprised you even have problems now.

Really kaylan?

 

You think men are attracted to a woman's wealth?

 

The only case where I can see that happening is when there is a huge income disparity. Like she's a multimillionaire and he's an average Joe. And even then I can't see her money being the primary reason.

 

Btw, there are plenty of visual women out there. Most couple match up in attractiveness and thats not just because the man picked the woman. The woman has to pick the guy as well.

At least you make sense here.

 

Well I'm not rich, but I have a very good job. I have a better income than a lot of my peers. Yet... it's always the hot girls guys want. Guys really don't care all that much about my job, or even all that much my personality. Yeah, a personality is nice, but only if attached to a hot body, and yeah, money is nice, but again, only if attached to a hot body.

No.

 

Physically, a girl only needs to meet the minimum standards of cute and a warm personality will take her the rest of the way. I'll talk to anybody I think is at least cute (and that criteria is very broad) but the ones I keep coming back to talk with aren't the prettiest, it's the girls I have the most fun with. The ones who laugh. The ones who seem nicer to me. The girls who want to know about me.

 

An ugly guy just needs a decent job and a decent personality (or a bad job but a fantastic personality) to make up for his ugliness. I apparently have to be rich AND have a fantastic personality. See the double standard?

Correction, an ugly guy needs to be super rich or have a fantastic personality.

 

Of which I have neither. And everybody here knows my dating situation.

 

BTW, I don't think I'm actually ugly, but with the short thing mixed in there, I might as well be. Heck I'd probably do better if I was 5'11 and half as good looking.

[AD1980]

She's referring to the top 20% of women who are thin and not horribly unattractive that KathyM described in some detail. Refer back to her posts if you overlooked it, her analysis seemed ballpark accurate to me.

 

So all it takes to be in the top 20% is be skinny and not hideous looking? lol the bars really slipped for women

 

And because im a inch or two shorter then average i dare not approach these women? lol women are really hot stuff

[KathyM]

So we're taking this guys word as an expert? Interesting - here's some more from your link:

"Underneath the chilly exterior she harbors an uncontrollable desire to submit to a worthy man. If you are that man, she’ll transform from bitchy ice queen to sultry seductress in a flash. Sex with them will be like nothing you’ve ever experienced with an American woman. They are ravenous in the sack and love to be dominated. Their submissive posturing and obvious delight at servicing your sexual ()perversions() needs will make you feel like a man who missed the memo on the feminist revolution. When she gives knob jobs, which is often, you will sense right away that she enjoys every minute of it and is not just doing it out of obligation — your dick may as well be a vodka popsicle. "

Sounds terrible. Really.

That link was to an article written by someone else--not this article--not this guy's opinion. But let's assume that Russian women are really good in bed. Doesn't change the fact that they won't want you unless you have a lot of money, and money is what they care about. So fine, if you have a lot of money, and don't care if you are married for your money alone, then go ahead and "buy" a Russian woman.

[kaylan]

A

Really kaylan?

 

You think men are attracted to a woman's wealth?

 

The only case where I can see that happening is when there is a huge income disparity. Like she's a multimillionaire and he's an average Joe. And even then I can't see her money being the primary reason.

 

At least you make sense here.

Learn to read.

 

I said that a rich ugly chick would have no problem finding a young hot guy to be with her. Plenty of guys mooch off chicks nowadays. People chase the green regardless of gender and seek an easy life.

 

In terms of average joes and janes, there still exists men and women looking to mooch off of one another. So my point stands.

 

Either way, how many guys would turn down the chance to live a millionaires life and never have to worry about a thing? And they get laid for life even if the woman isnt attractive to them. But they could use that new status to gain their own fame and chase other women as well. Lets be real.

[verhrzn]

By the way, to all the women who are going into detail about why Asian and Russian women wouldn't like me , I never once said I wanted to go after Asian or Russian women.

 

I live in an area of all Koreans and I don't have much in common with the women. They are pretty different. I also think Asian women fetishize caucasian males for facial hair, bone structure, etc, I think they should date their own men anyway. I think Asian women have a horrible taste in men, much worse than the average woman, you ought to see the ugly, tacky, mouth breathing nerdy types of white guys I see with Asian women, it must really get the average Asian guys blood pressure flying off the charts

 

 

With Russian women, I've known many women from Russia and Poland and always get the feeling that they are really cold and unemotional. American women tend to be petty and malicious, Russian women are not petty or malicious but they are indeed very cold and calculating here in the USA.

 

I think the type of woman that becomes a mail order bride is going to be cold and calculating, but I don't think this is a judgement of all Russian women.

 

That guy writing about Russian women has only seen American women in the movies, if he came here he'd be begging to go back like most men who immigrate here. Women everywhere have their pros and cons, except in America I can't think of a single pro to American women they are a melting pot of all the world's worst traits

 

I've travelled extensively throughout my life btw, so I know what i'm talking about. Women in other countries are much nicer, warmer, flirtier, and have a more lax view of what men should look like/how much money they should make.

 

So move there already. Dear God. We get it, you hate American women, white, Asian or otherwise. We are all fat, materialistic, cold, stupid and man-hating. So what's stopping you from hopping a plane and going elsewhere? Apply to a university somewhere in South America. Wash your hands of us, and be done.

 

I also find it amusing that in one post, you talk about how a man's success is completely down to his looks, and that women are sooo visual, and only the handsome/tall/rich succeed, and then you say that you see Asian women walking around with ugly mouth-breathing nerds! And that somehow that means they have "even worse taste" than the white American women.... meaning that women are dating guys who aren't attractive. How exactly do you reconcile these two points?

[PJKino]

So all it takes to be in the top 20% is be skinny and not hideous looking? lol the bars really slipped for women

 

And because im a inch or two shorter then average i dare not approach these women? lol women are really hot stuff

 

By these women's logic a 5'8 man with a handsome face and ripped abs is below the level of a average looking women if shes thin:laugh:

[Imajerk17]

Learn to read.

 

I said that a rich ugly chick would have no problem finding a young hot guy to be with her. Plenty of guys mooch off chicks nowadays. People chase the green regardless of gender and seek an easy life.

 

In terms of average joes and janes, there still exists men and women looking to mooch off of one another. So my point stands.

 

Either way, how many guys would turn down the chance to live a millionaires life and never have to worry about a thing? And they get laid for life even if the woman isnt attractive to them. But they could use that new status to gain their own fame and chase other women as well. Lets be real.

 

I'm not so sure. I definitely couldn't see myself doing that. And I'm not going to give some high-falutin' twaddle about how "I have too much integrity" or "I love my job too much". The idea of getting to spend my days sitting on my keister without having to worry about how I'll be paying my bills or where my next meal is coming from... sounds good to me!

 

See, sexing someone you aren't really into is a lot of work. The Bitter Boys and the Lovable Losers on here don't get that, but it is. Especially if that is the life you are stuck with--I'm not seeing how having a Sugar Momma is going to make it easier for a guy to meet other women.

 

I hate to admit this, but so much comes down to looks. Now my "10" isn't what Madison Ave thinks is attractive, but if I'm not saying "wow she is hot" going by even a good picture of her, it's an uphill climb. Now, I HAVE felt more attraction for a woman when I found out what she does, but that was because it said something about her---"wow, this girl really makes things happen for herself--I wonder if she is this driven in bed..." I have also felt attraction for for example, a teacher working two jobs to pay off her student loans for a similar reason.

 

Maybe women are more attracted to rich guys, but even then, I would say that she isn't attracted so much to the life of luxury she would lead with him so much as she is attracted to his ambition. (See my above paragraph.) And if she is just into him for the easy lifestyle she would lead with him--well, I wouldn't want to be that guy. Chances are she will cheat on him.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Imajerk17

[KathyM]

By the way, to all the women who are going into detail about why Asian and Russian women wouldn't like me , I never once said I wanted to go after Asian or Russian women.

 

I live in an area of all Koreans and I don't have much in common with the women. They are pretty different. I also think Asian women fetishize caucasian males for facial hair, bone structure, etc, I think they should date their own men anyway. I think Asian women have a horrible taste in men, much worse than the average woman, you ought to see the ugly, tacky, mouth breathing nerdy types of white guys I see with Asian women, it must really get the average Asian guys blood pressure flying off the charts

 

 

With Russian women, I've known many women from Russia and Poland and always get the feeling that they are really cold and unemotional. American women tend to be petty and malicious, Russian women are not petty or malicious but they are indeed very cold and calculating here in the USA.

 

I think the type of woman that becomes a mail order bride is going to be cold and calculating, but I don't think this is a judgement of all Russian women.

 

That guy writing about Russian women has only seen American women in the movies, if he came here he'd be begging to go back like most men who immigrate here. Women everywhere have their pros and cons, except in America I can't think of a single pro to American women they are a melting pot of all the world's worst traits

 

I've travelled extensively throughout my life btw, so I know what i'm talking about. Women in other countries are much nicer, warmer, flirtier, and have a more lax view of what men should look like/how much money they should make.

The guy in the article I posted is Russian, lives there, and is married to a Russian woman, and has experience in how Russian women behave. This does not just apply to Russian women who have come to America. This is Russian women in general. He's saying they are all cold and calculating, they marry a guy for his money, they turn on the charm in order to marry his money, as opposed to American women who seek relationships based on emotions. He said he's met/has experience with women of many backgrounds, and in comparison to Russian women, American women would be his preference because of this difference. This is not based on T.V. He only used that as a reference in saying that his Russian woman wanted want Americans have on T.V.

 

So you can't think of a single redeeming quality that American women have. Too bad. I guess that would explain why you're having such a hard time with dating them--your contempt for them must come across in what you say and how you act towards them. It comes across on this screen, that's for sure.

 

I'm sure all countries have certain qualities in women that men would like. It's too bad that you won't allow yourself to find the qualities that American women possess. Fortunately, most men do appreciate American women.

[verhrzn]

Well the Asian women thing is kind of like the black guys who will date a fat ugly white woman over a better looking black woman. I know in my english class last year this Asian girl would always try to get my attention and obviously liked me, while ignoring this other Asian guy who was better looking than me, 6'2, spoke her language, and was muscular

 

To them being of european descent is the same as being tall. I've seen plenty of ugly mouth breathing nerds get girls just because they are tall, that doesn't mean women aren't shallow at the expense of all common sense and reason about height.

 

Wait a second.... you've been on this board constantly complaining about how women are shallow, women require money and tall men and male models... and yet now you're saying this Asian girl totally liked you? And she choose you over someone who was, in your opinion, was better looking and muscular?

 

In other words.... she didn't mind that you were shorter and not as muscular? And didn't have tons of money?

 

And that somehow... confirms?... that American women are shallow? And that you can't get a girl cause girls judge you? Except... you could have easily gotten THIS girl. And you could have easily gotten Shannon, who frequently posted how hot and sexy she thought you were.

 

Are you just determined to be angry and "right"? The more you post, the more it becomes obvious that you actually CAN get women, you just enjoy dissing or ignoring them for the sake of reinforcing your own bizarre superiority/inferiority complex.

[KathyM]

By these women's logic a 5'8 man with a handsome face and ripped abs is below the level of a average looking women if shes thin:laugh:

That's not what I said. 5'8" is an average height for men, and a lot of women would consider dating a man of average height, although a lot would prefer taller. I married a man who is 5'8", handsome face, ripped body. I'm saying for men, being shorter than average is a big deterrant when it comes to dating, since the vast majority of women prefer at least average height men, and prefer taller. If a man limits himself only to the top 20% of women in appearance, then that top 20% is going to want the top 20% in men. Since height is a factor that women care about, and want at least average height in a man, the odds of finding a woman in that top 20% who would forego any height requirement are not very good. So I'm suggesting these guys consider expanding their dating pool so that they would have a greater chance at finding a relationship.

[ThaWholigan]

Wait a second.... you've been on this board constantly complaining about how women are shallow, women require money and tall men and male models... and yet now you're saying this Asian girl totally liked you? And she choose you over someone who was, in your opinion, was better looking and muscular?

 

In other words.... she didn't mind that you were shorter and not as muscular? And didn't have tons of money?

 

And that somehow... confirms?... that American women are shallow? And that you can't get a girl cause girls judge you? Except... you could have easily gotten THIS girl. And you could have easily gotten Shannon, who frequently posted how hot and sexy she thought you were.

 

Are you just determined to be angry and "right"? The more you post, the more it becomes obvious that you actually CAN get women, you just enjoy dissing or ignoring them for the sake of reinforcing your own bizarre superiority/inferiority complex.

 

@ Bolded......Dust has pointed this out quite a few times. I think it's just that he's become jaded. He comes across as being very intense, and I find that people like that can find it difficult to be objective about things at times, so I can understand why he's angry and can imagine how he is thinking about it. You get used to the anger and the intense way of looking at things and thinking about it, he's comfortable. I have the same problem with 2 of my brothers. Both very intense people, and very set in their ways and the way they think.

[verhrzn]

@ Bolded......Dust has pointed this out quite a few times. I think it's just that he's become jaded. He comes across as being very intense, and I find that people like that can find it difficult to be objective about things at times, so I can understand why he's angry and can imagine how he is thinking about it. You get used to the anger and the intense way of looking at things and thinking about it, he's comfortable. I have the same problem with 2 of my brothers. Both very intense people, and very set in their ways and the way they think.

 

How incredibly sad and ironic, that he could get the very thing he complains about not being able to get if he would just stop complaining about not getting it. Then again, he has such intense hatred for American women, I'd wonder if he'd really want us throwing ourselves at him anyway...

[ThaWholigan]

That's not what I said. 5'8" is an average height for men, and a lot of women would consider dating a man of average height, although a lot would prefer taller. I married a man who is 5'8", handsome face, ripped body. I'm saying for men, being shorter than average is a big deterrant when it comes to dating, since the vast majority of women prefer at least average height men, and prefer taller. If a man limits himself only to the top 20% of women in appearance, then that top 20% is going to want the top 20% in men. Since height is a factor that women care about, and want at least average height in a man, the odds of finding a woman in that top 20% who would forego any height requirement are not very good. So I'm suggesting these guys consider expanding their dating pool so that they would have a greater chance at finding a relationship.

 

Actually I don't think there is anything hugely wrong with what you are saying. I have a particularly wide range of what I find attractive, so I won't have a problem with dating. I think people are taking what you're saying to the extreme and think you're saying you should date someone they are repulsed by, but I don't think they have to go that far, maybe just someone they would otherwise overlook for a minor flaw. I want to be with a girl looks exactly like girl in the avi, but I am not against dating someone completely different as there is something I will find attractive about them. If I don't find anything attractive about them (physically or mentally or anything else), won't date them. I hear your message though

[ThaWholigan]

Yeah, but for even sillier/shallow/insiduous reasons.

 

I understand this. Most of the girls that have been interested in me over the last few years are white girls. This wouldn't be a problem in and of itself, as besides the family not quite approving, I would date a white girl anyway. But I find that when I (nervously) probe their interest further, they tend to want to date me for the sole reason that I am black, and it doesn't really endear me to their interest very much . It's even worse on POF.....

[KathyM]

LOL! Yeah right! He says not that Russian women are any worse, but rather that all women suck everywhere I was surprised you would post that to prove your point, actually.

 

There is no doubt many Russian women are looking for a guy with money, that's what happens when you live in a rather impoverished nation, but that still doesn't mean Russian women aren't different from American women. And LOL at the idea that American women choose mates based on emotion. American women choose mates based on money too, and if they already have money they choose them based on how much the man's physical appearance lubricates her vagina on first sight. And trust me, 90% (yeah, including you Hugh Grant, ROFL) of men are not physically attractive to American women, so we can see how this could be a problem.

 

 

 

 

"I Hate American Women"

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About 10,700,000 results

 

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About 67,900,000 results

 

 

Thus Spake Lord Google

He said all women are manipulative to some degree, but that Russian women have this cold, calculating, golddigging nature that makes him envious of what American men have over here. You don't think Russian women are any different from American women? Dear boy, you don't know what you're talking about. And since you are only 23 years old, and claim you have all this experience with women in all these different countries, I'd have to say you must be full of shi*t. I'm sure there are a few American women who marry a man solely for his money, but that is the exception and not the rule in America. With Russian women, that is the goal.

 

Send us a postcard when you get to the promised land of milk and honey, and women hot for your body.

[KathyM]

Actually I don't think there is anything hugely wrong with what you are saying. I have a particularly wide range of what I find attractive, so I won't have a problem with dating. I think people are taking what you're saying to the extreme and think you're saying you should date someone they are repulsed by, but I don't think they have to go that far, maybe just someone they would otherwise overlook for a minor flaw. I want to be with a girl looks exactly like girl in the avi, but I am not against dating someone completely different as there is something I will find attractive about them. If I don't find anything attractive about them (physically or mentally or anything else), won't date them. I hear your message though

That's all I'm saying, that this strict weight requirement is self defeating when they are trying so hard to find a relationship. When 2/3 of the female population are either obese or chubby in America, and another 10% not attractive for other reasons, these men are setting themselves up for failure in the dating world by having those kinds of weight standards, unless they are themselves in that top 20% of men.

[verhrzn]

The women in other countries are also cute but more on the plain side, not UNATTAINABLE like the modelesque women you see in Manhattan NYC. I guess in America those plain girls who are still kind of cute would be supermodels, since they aren't fat, but over there they're considered to be in my league.

 

The insane place is America, where I have to date a female with a massive beer gut who permanently smells like tuna, just for being a couple inches below average height

 

I just don't get why you're still complaining Wolf. You've got a plan to move far away to where all the perfect, kind, smart, hot women live, and you've already written American women off as either fat or stuck-up.

 

You don't want us anyway. So why do you care if we reject you? We don't meet your standards-so why are you upset that you don't meet ours*?

 

*This is not actually my belief. I've stated over and over that I know tons of women and am one myself that doesn't care at all about height, that doesn't require money, that happily dates nerds, and is actually put off by overly handsome guys. But I'm not hot, so my opinion doesn't count, right guys?