Is it best for Average people to Date Average people and give up their dreams?

[ThaWholigan]

Your assumption requires that most men be average or above average, which statistically makes no sense. Go to Wal-Mart at about 2am, 10am, or 2:30pm and look at the guys there. Most likely close to half of them will fall into the below average category that will have more trouble than you're alluding to.

 

Do they have to stay that way?? I mean, to me, Russell Brand back in the day was a below average looking dude with a very effeminate nature and a smack addiction. Sure he was witty, but that was it. All he did was get some style, some confidence, got his swagger in check, kicked the addiction, and became "shagger of the year", then married Katy Perry.

 

Sure, it's a celebrity example. But it's not beyond most guys to do what he did in my honest and humble opinion. The problem is those guys won't do what is necessary to evolve. And not just for dating. For their lives in general. They've conditioned themselves into a reality where they can't do those things. That's why they don't get the kind of women they want.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Do they have to stay that way??

 

A third of men don't give a ****, so yes, unfortunately they do. A quarter can't wash the ugly off, a quarter have depression or low self-esteem they can't get past, a fifth can't seem to rise out of poverty, etc.

 

You don't see below-average men as much because they tend to sit at home a lot, but they're out there in droves. People who work in professions where they're forced to see the truly average person know this--my girlfriend sees it every day in the ER, where people come whether they want to be there or not. She gets a much more accurate sense of what below-average is really like than most of us do.

[ThaWholigan]

A third of men don't give a ****, so yes, unfortunately they do. A quarter can't wash the ugly off, a quarter have depression or low self-esteem they can't get past, a fifth can't seem to rise out of poverty, etc.

 

You don't see below-average men as much because they tend to sit at home a lot, but they're out there in droves. People who work in professions where they're forced to see the truly average person know this--my girlfriend sees it every day in the ER, where people come whether they want to be there or not. She gets a much more accurate sense of what below-average is really like than most of us do.

 

I hear you, it's sad though. I wish I could duplicate my mentality and give it to these guys .

[xxoo]

Average people fall in love with other average people and make average babies every day. How do you think we got all these average people to begin with?

 

If it is any comfort, they don't look at their average partners and see "average". And they certainly don't look at their children and see "average". "Love is a great beautifier" ~Louisa May Alcott. When you love someone, their beauty multiplies in your eyes. Other see "average woman". You see "beautiful woman".

 

No, do not date someone to whom you are not attracted. The penis MUST agree, lol. But don't base that on first impressions.

 

To say that you flat out aren't attracted to women over X number of pounds is silly. You have no idea how much most of the women you meet weigh. Everyone carries weight differently. And, while you generally are not attracted to fat women, you may meet a few fat women who drive you absolutely wild with lust, if you were open to it. If the chemistry is there, it is there!

[Negative Nancy]

"Me: 4'9 , obese polynesian pygmy that walks on 4 legs and is HIV positive. You: 9 inch penis at the least, 6 pack abs, must look like Scandanavian male model, no MIDGETS (Ie, men under 6'0), must be from the state of Delaware (sorry just my type)" .

 

you're so funny sometimes, that really cracked me up

 

"polynesian pygmy that walks on 4 legs" - but no midgets, lol

[123321]

Porn is vile, but much more fun than dealing with women and getting nowhere.

 

That's called "doing it wrong".

 

How about raise your standards and only date what you actually want to date, or change your approach until you can get it?

[EnigmaticClarity]

Porn is vile, but much more fun than dealing with women and getting nowhere.

 

That's called "doing it wrong".

 

That's absolutely accurate because it channels the awesome power of the male libido into entirely the wrong place. If you lay off the porn and the whacking, to stop from going insane, you're forced into putting your effort into changing your behavior to find a woman.

 

A man with a strong libido is one of the most awesome organic forces known to man. It drives us to depths (rape, serial killing, pedophilia) or heights (simpatico, suave, charm, or outright charisma), but if you habitually just let it go nowhere out to porn, you're stagnant and treading water. The healthiest libidos are the ones that drive men to become more than they are so that they get more sex.

[bean1]

I was 5'5 and 118lbs when I met my husband. Years later, 2 pregnancies & 1 child later, I am 128lbs, so 10lbs heavier. IMO that's reasonable, isn't it?

 

I have a really hard time with men getting **** on for having a weight preference in women. As much as we'd like to pretend it doesn't exist, men ARE very visual and sexually attracted based on physical appearance. Which is why I work my ass off to maintain 128lbs at 30+ with multiple pregnancies.

 

IMO, 5'2 and 145lbs is chubby and I think we all know that. "Acceptable" chubby for many men, yes, but they shouldn't be **** on for not being attracted to it. If a girl can't maintain a reasonable shape when young and single, then it will get worse after she starts having babies. Maybe these men are just being realistic about not wanting to deal with losing sexual attraction when it hardly exists in the first place. You all know that in the marriage forums, one of a man's top complaints is that she let herself go drastically.

 

And yes, my husband has gained 60lbs since I met him. I still find him attractive. But that is me. Some people are honest in saying that they would not- and they should not be hanged for it.

[xxoo]

That's absolutely accurate because it channels the awesome power of the male libido into entirely the wrong place. If you lay off the porn and the whacking, to stop from going insane, you're forced into putting your effort into changing your behavior to find a woman.

 

Not only that, you may find yourself attracted to a broader range of women, simply because you are hornier! Also because you aren't artifically associating sex with a narrow "porn type".

 

Bean--I'm not trying to talk any man into dating a woman he isn't attracted to. I'm just saying that it is silly to reject a woman outright based on a number on the scale. Be a little more open minded, look at her as an individual and not a number, and you might be surprised to find attraction grow sometimes. Chubby can be extremely sexy if you simply adore the woman.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Chubby can be extremely sexy if you simply adore the woman.

 

Very unhealthy viewpoint that contributes to the obesity epidemic. Chubby means trading moderation and discipline for the distraction of the taste of food resulting in a less-healthy, less-happy person. Aside from the physical appearance, when I see fat, I see unhappiness--someone who is choosing to shorten their life in this wonderful world for all the wrong reasons.

[alphamale]

But then again, i don't know if it's worth it because as i pointed out, it's very unlikely for an average guy like me to get the girls i am attracted to since they usualy are not interested in men like me.

most good-looking girls are looking for money

[Els]

Very unhealthy viewpoint that contributes to the obesity epidemic. Chubby means trading moderation and discipline for the distraction of the taste of food resulting in a less-healthy, less-happy person. Aside from the physical appearance, when I see fat, I see unhappiness--someone who is choosing to shorten their life in this wonderful world for all the wrong reasons.

 

Honestly, what a lot of people call chubby is really a perfectly normal weight for someone to be having. Conversely, the skinny models the media loves are usually not the healthiest people around.

 

Most of the very fit girls I know have a bit of... 'meat on their bones', for lack of a better word. Probably because the muscles bulk up the arms and legs and contribute to a slightly stockier appearance, and also add weight. Size 0s aren't going to be able to kickbox or climb mountains and we all know it.

 

As for the title of this thread, no sympathies for you, OP. If someone's 'dream' is to date a 'hot/rich/tall/insert random superficial degree by which they measure a person's worth here' man/woman and complains that they can't get them because they themselves are too 'average', you're only going to be getting laughter from me.

[bean1]

Well, 5'2 and 145lbs (just using an example from the thread) is considered overweight, medically. Myself, have been a size 0-4 my whole life and can easily do most sports, I have been a weightlifter (powerlifting and olympic lifting) for several years before my son was born, at a size 0-2. Most female athletes generally have a similar range of muscle mass - the difference is body fat levels. Many women who claim to be bulky/lots of muscle/stocky are simply just carrying more body fat, rather than being bulky. I spent a few years in bodybuilding myself and there is simply no end of women who are just carrying higher levels of body fat and claiming they are bulky. Yet, their strength levels do not reflect this at all. Most women love to cling to blaming their "muscle mass" rather than admit that their body fat levels have deceived them.

 

Honesty is the best policy.

http://www.stumptuous.com/honesty-is-the-best-policy

 

But I am also not from the US and I wonder if my cultural perception of chubby is not the same as most posters here...

[xxoo]

Very unhealthy viewpoint that contributes to the obesity epidemic. Chubby means trading moderation and discipline for the distraction of the taste of food resulting in a less-healthy, less-happy person. Aside from the physical appearance, when I see fat, I see unhappiness--someone who is choosing to shorten their life in this wonderful world for all the wrong reasons.

 

. Size 0s aren't going to be able to kickbox or climb mountains and we all know it.

 

Both of these statements show what I am saying.

 

I know women who run longer and faster than me, and are chubby--esp stubborn hip/thigh weight.

 

I am a size 0, and I ran 5 miles on Sat. My sisters, as thin as me, do triathalons and hang from rocks for fun.

 

A number means NOTHING! We are all individuals.

[KathyM]

You're a girl so you can't fully understand the dark place these guys have gone. Let me tell you if they just followed common sense they'd be fine. It's a dark time for them. They are their own worst enemy.

 

It's almost the male equivelent of becoming the girl with one too many cats... It would be arguably worse if they started getting cats though!

I actually know both a man and a woman who have turned away from dating after being burned by it, and have isolated themselves. The guy turned to video games and makes no effort to get out of the house or to meet women. (I'm not saying Somedude is like this, but we're talking in general). I also know a woman who turned away from dating, never left her apartment except to go to the grocery store or to work, and gave up on trying to find someone, isolated herself, and was alone for many years. She actually did become a cat hoarder, and was trying to make up for the lack of attention from a man by surrounding herself with cats. The ironic thing was, after making no effort for years to meet people and isolating herself, when she finally did get approached by a man who showed interest, he ended up dumping her because of the cats.

[Els]

Well, 5'2 and 145lbs (just using an example from the thread) is considered overweight, medically. Myself, have been a size 0-4 my whole life and can easily do most sports, I have been a weightlifter (powerlifting and olympic lifting) for several years before my son was born, at a size 0-2. Most female athletes generally have a similar range of muscle mass - the difference is body fat levels. Many women who claim to be bulky/lots of muscle/stocky are simply just carrying more body fat, rather than being bulky. I spent a few years in bodybuilding myself and there is simply no end of women who are just carrying higher levels of body fat and claiming they are bulky. Yet, their strength levels do not reflect this at all. Most women love to cling to blaming their "muscle mass" rather than admit that their body fat levels have deceived them.

 

Honesty is the best policy.

http://www.stumptuous.com/honesty-is-the-best-policy

 

But I am also not from the US and I wonder if my cultural perception of chubby is not the same as most posters here...

 

Would you kindly link me to a professional bodybuilder who is a size 0?

[verhrzn]

I was 5'5 and 118lbs when I met my husband. Years later, 2 pregnancies & 1 child later, I am 128lbs, so 10lbs heavier. IMO that's reasonable, isn't it?

 

I have a really hard time with men getting **** on for having a weight preference in women. As much as we'd like to pretend it doesn't exist, men ARE very visual and sexually attracted based on physical appearance. Which is why I work my ass off to maintain 128lbs at 30+ with multiple pregnancies.

 

IMO, 5'2 and 145lbs is chubby and I think we all know that. "Acceptable" chubby for many men, yes, but they shouldn't be **** on for not being attracted to it. If a girl can't maintain a reasonable shape when young and single, then it will get worse after she starts having babies. Maybe these men are just being realistic about not wanting to deal with losing sexual attraction when it hardly exists in the first place. You all know that in the marriage forums, one of a man's top complaints is that she let herself go drastically.

 

And yes, my husband has gained 60lbs since I met him. I still find him attractive. But that is me. Some people are honest in saying that they would not- and they should not be hanged for it.

 

I think people get bent out of shape because the stringent weight (and overall beauty) requirements for women are coming from guys who don't have the same standards for themselves. It's hypocritical, and rather judgmental... Those kinds of people assume a lot of things about chubby/fat people just by looking at them (they're lazy, they make excuses, they lack discipline, they're desperate and will have sex with anyone) that go beyond "I'm not attracted to them, oh well."

 

It's the difference between me saying," Eh I don't dig people with yellow hair" and saying," Blondes are so ugly, because being blond means they're stupid and mean."

 

On a certain level I agree that people shouldn't be judged for their own attractiveness quota, but when their standards and quota are much higher than they themselves strive to be, and then they whine about how they can't get what they want, it gets under my skin. It then becomes less about attraction, and more about entitlement.

[bean1]

Would you kindly link me to a professional bodybuilder who is a size 0?

 

Female bodybuilders do not advertise their clothing size but Pauline Nordin and Jamie Eason are both 5'2 and very likely around a 0-2 size.

[KathyM]

Damn, cerri

 

 

I'm not saying that woman like that can't be a great wife. But the physical just isn't there for me. Would a woman truly be happy in a relationship where she knows her man is not attracted whatsoever. I can't even imagine what the sex would be like. Actually I can, there wouldn't be any. It sounds like a horrible thing to put a woman through.

 

Sadly there is actually a little truth to Dust's post. No it's not the porn part.

 

My sexual experiences and a general complete lack of experience has messed up how I see women. I could go into a lot more detail but there isn't a need for this thread.

 

BTW, I asked out a girl a few days ago. And while she said no, I'm going to try again later as I don't thinks she knew I was being serious.

 

My thoughts exactly.

Does the physical really have to be there for you right from the start? Can no other things make up for the lack of physical attraction in a relationship? A lot of people out there are bypassing the physical attraction requirement, because the other benefits (companionship, love, attention, etc.) make up for it. If you're serious about finding love and finding a relationship and someone to care about you, then you may have to be more flexible about your physical requirement if it's not working for you when you adhere to your requirements. Believe it or not, there are plenty of people out there that know they are not physically attractive to the opposite sex, but they are still in relationships for other reasons, and they are getting their needs met for companionship, for love, and even for sex. You ever hear the song "Better With the Lights Off"? (I think that's the name of it). People can and do enjoy sex with someone that they may not be physically attracted to through sight alone, but they still enjoy sex because it feels good regardless of the fact that they are not physically attractive. I'm just suggesting that if it's not working for you to find love with the physical requirements you currently have, you should consider changing those requirements, and that may get you more success with dating.

[Els]

Female bodybuilders do not advertise their clothing size but Pauline Nordin and Jamie Eason are both 5'2 and very likely around a 0-2 size.

 

Do you not think that some men will call those arms stocky? That is what I mean. There is muscle in them.

 

After reading xxoo's post, I agree that perhaps I should not have said that a size 0 women couldn't possibly be fit. It's just that most of my life, I've been around skinny girls who look like this: http://culture.people.com.cn/mediafile/200604/15/P200604150909136232613131.gif . To not be called 'chubby', you have to look like that. And it's really sad, because most of them look that way not because they are fit and healthy, but because they starve themselves as much as they possibly can.

 

I'm 5'1" and 120 lbs, and have been called chubby way more times than I care to repeat. That is the sort of mentality that disgusts me. That a woman has to be either underweight or in the lower end of the normal weight range, or else be called 'chubby'. Most of the girls called 'chubby' are not unhealthy by any means - or at least not in weight-related ways. They would be considered lovely if today's society did not idolize slimness. Unfortunately, they are often made to think poorly of themselves instead for their perfectly normal and healthy bodies.

[bean1]

No, I don't think they are stocky. Plenty of men would probably consider them gross for sure, but stocky implies thick & heavy - when you are a sub 12% body fat for a female (or about 14% for Eason) then you aren't stocky, you're just ripped.

 

Elswyth, are you Asian by any chance? I think Asian girls are clearly held to even worse standards than white girls (I mean try shopping for plus size in Japan). I don't think most would consider 5'1 and 120 to be chubby unless you are horribly sedentary and have zero muscle (those stats being very normal weight).

[KathyM]

I think people get bent out of shape because the stringent weight (and overall beauty) requirements for women are coming from guys who don't have the same standards for themselves. It's hypocritical, and rather judgmental... Those kinds of people assume a lot of things about chubby/fat people just by looking at them (they're lazy, they make excuses, they lack discipline, they're desperate and will have sex with anyone) that go beyond "I'm not attracted to them, oh well."

 

It's the difference between me saying," Eh I don't dig people with yellow hair" and saying," Blondes are so ugly, because being blond means they're stupid and mean."

 

On a certain level I agree that people shouldn't be judged for their own attractiveness quota, but when their standards and quota are much higher than they themselves strive to be, and then they whine about how they can't get what they want, it gets under my skin. It then becomes less about attraction, and more about entitlement.

Good post. ITA.

[verhrzn]

No, I don't think they are stocky. Plenty of men would probably consider them gross for sure, but stocky implies thick & heavy - when you are a sub 12% body fat for a female (or about 14% for Eason) then you aren't stocky, you're just ripped.

 

Elswyth, are you Asian by any chance? I think Asian girls are clearly held to even worse standards than white girls (I mean try shopping for plus size in Japan). I don't think most would consider 5'1 and 120 to be chubby unless you are horribly sedentary and have zero muscle (those stats being very normal weight).

 

I am almost the exact same height and weight as Elswyth (I bounce between 120-130), and I'm almost always labeled chubby, fat, overweight, etc, even though my BMI is in the happy middle ground of "average." A guy mooed at me one time when I walked past his table in a bar. One of the suggestions out of this website was that I lose about 20 pounds.

 

What we really need to get away from as a society is equating how people look with how fit they are. Skinny people can be fit (though it's questionable if they're 'strong.') Chubby/fat (not obese, but overweight) people can be healthy and strong. Appearance is not enough to judge a person's health, or character.

[azsinglegal]

Do you not think that some men will call those arms stocky? That is what I mean. There is muscle in them.

 

After reading xxoo's post, I agree that perhaps I should not have said that a size 0 women couldn't possibly be fit. It's just that most of my life, I've been around skinny girls who look like this: http://culture.people.com.cn/mediafile/200604/15/P200604150909136232613131.gif . To not be called 'chubby', you have to look like that. And it's really sad, because most of them look that way not because they are fit and healthy, but because they starve themselves as much as they possibly can.

 

I'm 5'1" and 120 lbs, and have been called chubby way more times than I care to repeat. That is the sort of mentality that disgusts me. That a woman has to be either underweight or in the lower end of the normal weight range, or else be called 'chubby'. Most of the girls called 'chubby' are not unhealthy by any means - or at least not in weight-related ways. They would be considered lovely if today's society did not idolize slimness. Unfortunately, they are often made to think poorly of themselves instead for their perfectly normal and healthy bodies.

 

With the lack of being rude, which I'm surely not, are you being called "chubby" because you're not toned at that weight?

 

I can tell you I've been 178lbs and I was chubby, now I'm 145lbs and not chubby at all but muscular. I went from 178 to 125 back to 145 the more muscle I gained. I'd like to lose about 10lbs, but I'm pretty happy with the way I look right now and I'd take muscle > thin any day on my frame.

 

Many women who are my same weight have "rolls" or "chub" so it really depends on body type and how much muscle you have. Does that make sense? Again, not trying to be rude...and yes, I agree, that being judged for our size does suck.

 

But I choose to do something about it instead of just accepting the "chubby" I was.

[Els]

No, I don't think they are stocky. Plenty of men would probably consider them gross for sure, but stocky implies thick & heavy - when you are a sub 12% body fat for a female (or about 14% for Eason) then you aren't stocky, you're just ripped.

 

Elswyth, are you Asian by any chance? I think Asian girls are clearly held to even worse standards than white girls (I mean try shopping for plus size in Japan). I don't think most would consider 5'1 and 120 to be chubby unless you are horribly sedentary and have zero muscle (those stats being very normal weight).

 

Yeah, I am. I'm not sure about where you lived, but where I come from, that was definitely called chubby. I do notice that in the Western-culture country that I now live, people don't say that anymore. Though I don't have anyone here except the bf, and the people calling me that back home were mostly parents/relatives.

 

I am almost the exact same height and weight as Elswyth (I bounce between 120-130), and I'm almost always labeled chubby, fat, overweight, etc, even though my BMI is in the happy middle ground of "average." A guy mooed at me one time when I walked past his table in a bar. One of the suggestions out of this website was that I lose about 20 pounds.

 

That's pretty horrible. :/ I don't have pure strangers doing that, at least. You seem to live in a pretty rude community?

 

With the lack of being rude, which I'm surely not, are you being called "chubby" because you're not toned at that weight?

 

I can tell you I've been 178lbs and I was chubby, now I'm 145lbs and not chubby at all but muscular. I went from 178 to 125 back to 145 the more muscle I gained. I'd like to lose about 10lbs, but I'm pretty happy with the way I look right now and I'd take muscle > thin any day on my frame.

 

Many women who are my same weight have "rolls" or "chub" so it really depends on body type and how much muscle you have. Does that make sense? Again, not trying to be rude...and yes, I agree, that being judged for our size does suck.

 

But I choose to do something about it instead of just accepting the "chubby" I was.

 

I have as much muscle as any average girl you'd see on the streets. That doesn't seem to matter, though. I look about the same as this girl: http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/6261355/Audience-aghast-as-acrobat-falls . She is a performing acrobat, a role that requires good fitness and agility, definitely more than I have. But we have the same body shape, and I'm sure she's judged as chubby too. (Not the best picture, since her shirt is loose, but it was the first I could think of and her arms look like mine)