"The Love of my Life" - After the A

[donnamaybe]

Why don't you provide us with some insight by sharing your reasons for doing so?

 

I have no evidence contrary to what I see on this board. You don't either. Just a lot of "but what ifs."

[donnamaybe]

SMO - first of all my qualifications. My first degree is in economics and you guessed it statistics. I later qualified as a CPA (an accountant) and am now a lawyer admitted to the bar.

 

You are absolutely correct that LS could not be regarded as a sufficiently random selection of people, nor could the sample size be verified and there haven't been any surveys done on which to base an acceptable study with results and conclusions.

 

All this means that it wouldn't be possible to publish results and conclusions and have them accepted as valid by whatever professional group might use them, or the general public.

 

However you are absolutely mistaken if you say that people (eg fellow posters) are unable to draw accurate conclusions. People can and do draw them, myself and you included. Of course we cannot publish them and have them generally accepted by others but that doesn't mean we don't come to conclusions. What's more some of the conclusions we draw are accurate.

 

To give you an example I have drawn the conclusion that most posters on this board are female. I have also drawn the conclusion that most MM involved with OW who post on this board, follow very similar patterns in conducting their EMAs. This is supported by my observations of the way many BWs on this board talk about the way their own WHs engaged in their affairs.

 

I cannot prove any of this (after all they could all be males pretending to be females), and would never dream of trying to publish this as an acceptable study.

There could also be females pretending to be males.

 

Maybe I am only repeating what you mean; but your continued insistence that we cannot come to valid conclusions is not quite accurate. It's just that any conclusions we draw could not be published as part of a study without a lot more effort to ensure valid sample size, random selection and appropriate areas of questioning.

Yep!

[seren]

I shall respond to this ES as it asks specific questions, the topic is one I find interesting as it has/had an impact in the field in which I worked.

 

Thank you for bringing this thread back on track, and for this thought-provoking post.

 

Am I correct in understanding that, when you state that you'd still have considered your H the "love of your life" had he left, you are saying that the betrayal and anger you'd have felt at that outcome would have been dwarfed by the extent of the love you'd shared - or even, an abiding love you felt for him?

 

This for me is why I said what I said, yes I view my H as the love of my life. I can hate what he did, but not the man, our long time together has proven to me that the A does not define him as a man, nor does it define our marriage. It was what is was. Even had I weighed it all up, which I obviously did, stupid I am not, and made the decision to leave, I would have loved him always.

 

Or is it more an acceptance that the "damage" (for want of a better word) that that betrayal had wrought on you would effectively prevent you from ever trusting another lover to the same extent, preventing you from falling that deeply in love with anyone else in the future, so that this R (despite its ultimate outcome) would be the deepest and most intense in your life?

 

No, trust had to be a major factor in my deciding to stay, my H had pretty bad PTSD after 3 tours in Iraq. Unless you (general) have lived with someone with battle stress you simply cannot imagine it. It left him very vulnerable, a changed man and his path of self destruction was painful and terrible to watch, that he didn't share with me was part of it, I have said elsewhere, that he found someone else to help him to survive, literally, was a cruel twist, but because I love him, I am almost glad he had somewhere he could find peace for a short time. If that makes me stupid, so be it, but I don't love only if he acts the way I want him to. I just do. I am a very assertive person, both privately and professionaly, no one was more suprised than I that I forgave and still loved. Had we split I wouldn't want another, it is something I know in my heart, we just fit and there would be no room for another man.

 

In my friend's case, I think it's possibly a little of both. Although she's moved on and is in a R with someone else, she still retains a good deal of affection for her fMM. She's also clearly withholding in the new R, not allowing herself to get drawn in as fully as she was in the A. And while that withholding is easy to understand in the wake of her heartbreak, it does also carry the risk of her putting the fMM on some kind of pedestal that no other man can ever match. Which, in her case, could become a problem.

 

I suppose some people have a blinkered view of who a person is, maybe if my H hadn't had such problems when he had the A I might not have been so understanding, but I would still have loved him. My H doesn't live on a pedestal, but right next to me and so I, when making my decision, looked at who I knew him to be, warts and all and still the only answer was to stay. I suppose unrequited love carry's with it unfinished business and this is maybe what your friend is feeling.

 

I guess "the love of your life" would refer to the person YOU loved the most, rather than the person who loved you most or best or most visibly, so perhaps it isn't such a strange phenomenon?

 

This I think is key, every man and his dog can tell you that someone is bad for you, but until you get to that point yourself, it's just a waste of breath trying to persuade them otherwise. Think of those who have been abused, those I have worked with will defend their partner's actions to the hilt, until the day they realise that they no longer love and that what they shared wasn't based upong love or respect.

I am reminded of a woman I worked with whose husband had abused their daughters, she said to me that she hated what he did, but hated herself more as no matter what she knew, she still felt love for the man he had been. Now that was messed up thinking to me, but I didn't live in her head. Confused? you bet.

[alexandria35]

This is a great discussion that could go on endlessly because there doesn't seem to be a right answer. Nobody can prove their theory.

 

Loveshack is a small sampling of affairs. This is true, but on the other hand Loveshack is not the only infidelity/affair board. There are many and of the ones that are open for public reading the stories are all much the same as seen here. Maybe even more sad and dismal on the other boards where there are no betrayed spouses the APS are not as prone to defending their affairs on every post.

 

The argument that people who are happy in their affairs are not posting on support forums is probably valid. There are probably a lot of happy OW/OM who don't feel any need to seek out a site of this kind. On the other hand, not every unhappy OW/OM is going to post to find their way to a support forum either. So while their may be many many happy APS out there in the world there may also be many many more unhappy APS too. Unless someone actually does an in depth and far reaching analysis of this, how are we to ever know for sure?

 

I think all we can trust in is our own experience. I haven't been in an affair but from I have seen in my real life and in internet land is that affairs rarely work out and usually just end up hurting a lot of people. In my real life I only know one couple who had an affair and then got married to each other. They are not a success. Their marriage was terrible and as of right now they are in the final stages of divorce. Other people I have watched go through this as the AP, the WS, or the BS have suffered negatively as well. So my take on cheating and affairs is obviously not positive and until someone can introduce me to lots and lots of happy people who are having affairs or having happy endings from their affairs, my opinion isn't going to change. Telling me there are millions out there somewhere in the world means nothing to me.

[MissBee]

My stance is simply that LS does not provide an accurate random sample, nor a large enough sample, on which to base an accurate statistical conclusion - without regard for what that conclusion might be.

 

I am not arguing that A's are good or bad, successful or unsuccessful - *only* that the sample on LS is insufficient and non-random.

 

Some here seem to feel the sample here on LS *is* sufficiently random, and sufficient in size, yet, provide no compelling argument on which to support their belief. There are methods for determining sufficient sample size and for assuring the sample is sufficiently random.

 

It's really very simple. If the size of the group is 2.5 million, to obtain results with a 95% confidence level and a margin of error of +/- 3.5%, we'd need a random sample size of 784.

 

Are there 784 people involved in A's posting here? Is the sample random? ... and, what is the size of the group (I suspect it's more than 2.5 million, although, above that number, the sample size doesn't change significantly)

 

 

You didn't answer my question really....which was about if you could make a prediction, separate and aside from LS what would it be. Of course you don't have to answer....but the rest about random samples and the lot are neither here nor there as I'm not talking about that. Research involves a hypothesis first, that can then be proven true or false. As Sidlyon said: we can all make observations and draw conclusions that may or may not be accurate or may be accurate but not publishable as they don't follow research parameters. I was simply asking for your hypothesis i.e. a prediction based on reasoning. Hypotheses come before research and therefore sample sizes and so on are irrelevant to your hypothesis itself.

Edited January 27, 2012 by MissBee

[MissBee]

Actually, I stated LS does not provide a sufficient sample size, nor is it sufficiently random, on which to base any accurate conclusions. Any further "implications" beyond that are imagined.

 

Ahh...I did not single you out SMO and was not talking about you on the sly either. But if you feel that it was you...I can read that in a particular way too

[MissBee]

SMO - first of all my qualifications. My first degree is in economics and you guessed it statistics. I later qualified as a CPA (an accountant) and am now a lawyer admitted to the bar.

 

You are absolutely correct that LS could not be regarded as a sufficiently random selection of people, nor could the sample size be verified and there haven't been any surveys done on which to base an acceptable study with results and conclusions.

 

All this means that it wouldn't be possible to publish results and conclusions and have them accepted as valid by whatever professional group might use them, or the general public.

 

However you are absolutely mistaken if you say that people (eg fellow posters) are unable to draw accurate conclusions. People can and do draw them, myself and you included. Of course we cannot publish them and have them generally accepted by others but that doesn't mean we don't come to conclusions. What's more some of the conclusions we draw are accurate.

 

To give you an example I have drawn the conclusion that most posters on this board are female. I have also drawn the conclusion that most MM involved with OW who post on this board, follow very similar patterns in conducting their EMAs. This is supported by my observations of the way many BWs on this board talk about the way their own WHs engaged in their affairs.

 

I cannot prove any of this (after all they could all be males pretending to be females), and would never dream of trying to publish this as an acceptable study.

 

Maybe I am only repeating what you mean; but your continued insistence that we cannot come to valid conclusions is not quite accurate. It's just that any conclusions we draw could not be published as part of a study without a lot more effort to ensure valid sample size, random selection and appropriate areas of questioning.

 

Excellent post Sid!

[MissBee]

This is a great discussion that could go on endlessly because there doesn't seem to be a right answer. Nobody can prove their theory.

 

Loveshack is a small sampling of affairs. This is true, but on the other hand Loveshack is not the only infidelity/affair board. There are many and of the ones that are open for public reading the stories are all much the same as seen here. Maybe even more sad and dismal on the other boards where there are no betrayed spouses the APS are not as prone to defending their affairs on every post.

 

The argument that people who are happy in their affairs are not posting on support forums is probably valid. There are probably a lot of happy OW/OM who don't feel any need to seek out a site of this kind. On the other hand, not every unhappy OW/OM is going to post to find their way to a support forum either. So while their may be many many happy APS out there in the world there may also be many many more unhappy APS too. Unless someone actually does an in depth and far reaching analysis of this, how are we to ever know for sure?

 

I think all we can trust in is our own experience. I haven't been in an affair but from I have seen in my real life and in internet land is that affairs rarely work out and usually just end up hurting a lot of people. In my real life I only know one couple who had an affair and then got married to each other. They are not a success. Their marriage was terrible and as of right now they are in the final stages of divorce. Other people I have watched go through this as the AP, the WS, or the BS have suffered negatively as well. So my take on cheating and affairs is obviously not positive and until someone can introduce me to lots and lots of happy people who are having affairs or having happy endings from their affairs, my opinion isn't going to change. Telling me there are millions out there somewhere in the world means nothing to me.

 

Well said!

 

I concur.

 

I can bet that LS is NOT an anomaly and I would be knocked over with a feather if 10 million people are in As and more than 50% of the APs are happy and satisfied. Without that data, I too will use my experience, my family experience, people I know, strangers online in the hundreds and my common senses to wager that most As are not fantastic. I will stick by that hypothesis.

Edited January 27, 2012 by MissBee

[donnamaybe]

Well said!

 

I concur.

 

I can bet that LS is NOT an anomaly and I would be knocked over with a feather if 10 million people are in As and more than 50% of the APs are happy and satisfied. Without that data, I too will use my experience, my family experience, people I know, strangers online in the hundreds and my common senses to wager that most As are not fantastic. I will stick by that hypothesis.

I didn't think I was that far off the mark. Seems more folks agree with me than not.

[beenburned]

Good post Sid!

 

Since I am a long ago BW, I have spent many years reading on different boards and read many books about infidelity.(mostly written by therapist/counselors)

 

You see many common traits repeated over and over.

 

Yes, all affairs are different, and so are the people in them! So when other people post about their personal experience being so different than yours, it does not mean you aren't telling the truth.

 

But I think everyone learns and benefits from hearing other peoples stories.

Especially when it is a different side of the triangle than your own!

[Summer Breeze]

You have no idea what goes through the mind of his wife. NONE. He is staying regardless of being so in love with you. He is the one suffering in a marriage while being so in love with someone else but he is willing to give you up to keep his marriage because of the kid. Why is his wife not given these same thoughts? Why do you not consider that this woman is putting up with his cheating for the life of her kid? She could be stashing money and doing all kinds of things to prepare for a life without him. I am sure after 5 d days she can not wait to get out of this marriage. Of course she is going to act like all is well with them. Do you really think she is going to tell you how much she is suffering.

I have an idea of part of what has gone on in her head at different times because we have had some very open discussions. He is staying in a marriage that is comfortable with a woman he has a rich history with and a family that needs him. He isn't suffering any more than I am by staying single. I never even made a suggestion he was suffering. If you care to read my posts in this thread you'll see that I said she is staying for their boy just like he is and that I respect them both for that devotion. How much she suffered was up to her after the first time she found out. She could have walked away and she chose to stay. I told her that if she ever wondered if I was back in the picture she only had to call and I'd tell her the truth. She didn't. I hurt once when my xH cheated on me. It stopped after the first time because I wasn't going to take the chance of a second. I'm not saying his cheating was her fault in any way but he never denied his feelings for me and she told me that and she still chose to stay. We all are where we want to be and it can be for many many reasons.

 

The double standards of the ow just are so odd. Man won't leave because of kid even though he is in love but wife is supposed to leave regardless of kid when she does not even love someone else that she will lose?

There isn't any double standard in my posts or in my opinion. We are all where we want to be. I never blamed her for leaving. She loves him for the same things I do and they have an unbreakable bond with their child. He was open about it with me from the beginning and he never strayed from it.

 

Why would you stick around for 5 d days helping to cause so much pain to this family when you knew all along he would never be yours? Why would you stay? Oh that's right he loved you, just not enough to change his circumstances. The adult child may need both his parents but not both together. I am sure 4 parents helping would even be better.

He still loves me. He still sends flowers and emails. I don't respond. I ended it because there was a point I wanted more and he was true to his word---he wasn't leaving. I had to make my choices just like they made theirs. I didn't stick around. He always said he was going to try and make it work and I went on living my life. He would contact me and we resumed things. I still love him and if he left now I wouldn't hesitate to have him back in my life. Since you know so very much about the condition of the child I won't bother to respond. I must say it's incredible the insight you have into everyone's lives here and how perfect you must be to insult so many people from all over the globe.

 

 

My responses in bold

[Summer Breeze]

Why would he have to go to a home if they are apart? Makes no sense. If they can care for him in their home then they can care for him in mm's new home too. Excuses and you are buying into them.

 

It makes no sense because you don't want it to. You want to just harp on a subject even if you have no idea about it. Harp away we all expect that from you.

 

Reasons and I don't buy into them, I understand them and accepted them from day 1.

[Summer Breeze]

Good post Sid!

 

Since I am a long ago BW, I have spent many years reading on different boards and read many books about infidelity.(mostly written by therapist/counselors)

 

You see many common traits repeated over and over.

 

Yes, all affairs are different, and so are the people in them! So when other people post about their personal experience being so different than yours, it does not mean you aren't telling the truth.

 

But I think everyone learns and benefits from hearing other peoples stories.

Especially when it is a different side of the triangle than your own![/QUOTE]

 

In bold---this is exactly what the forums should be for. It shouldn't be a place to pontificate or judge. I don't like a lot of the things people do but since I don't walk in their shoes I won't judge. I've made choices in my life and I have no regrets. That doesn't mean that I should have made other choices and if I'd known then waht I know now then maybe I would have. Sometimes I look at the SB in her 20s and wonder 'what was I thinking'. I'm decades past being a BS and years past being an OW but parts of me are still both and I want to learn about it and read what other people experienced and what they did. I do the same in politics. Listen and learn.

[beenburned]

SB,

Why did you divorce your XH for cheating?

 

Was it a dealbreaker, or did you just have a bad marriage, and that was the straw that broke the camel's back?

 

Knowing the pain a BW feels, what made you become an OW later in life?

 

Was it just a one time occurrence due to this particular man? Or did you get wild after your divorce and sow wild oats?

[alexandria35]

It makes no sense because you don't want it to. You want to just harp on a subject even if you have no idea about it. Harp away we all expect that from you.

 

Reasons and I don't buy into them, I understand them and accepted them from day 1.

 

I don't get it either though. You have posted in the past about the MM spending long weekends with you and taking 3/4 day trips with you so apparently he didn't need to be at home 24/7 and his son survived. I would think it would have been easier if he had divorced because then his time with you could have been scheduled rather than stolen.

[Summer Breeze]

SB,

Why did you divorce your XH for cheating?

 

Was it a dealbreaker, or did you just have a bad marriage, and that was the straw that broke the camel's back?

 

Knowing the pain a BW feels, what made you become an OW later in life?

 

Was it just a one time occurrence due to this particular man? Or did you get wild after your divorce and sow wild oats?

 

We had some issues in the M but nothing that would have caused me to end it. I do know that I reacted badly some things and believe it created some of what led to the A. I wasn't responsible for him having one but I was responsible for some of what led to the perfect storm.

 

It was a dealbreaker and it was something we talked about and I was always adamant I wouldn't stay. It was a passing thought at one point I might stay but the person I trusted most in the world did that to me and I knew the trust wouldn't come back.

 

The OW in my situation had no relevence to my xH cheating. She had nothing to do with my pain. It was all down to him and what he did. Why blame someone else. He made himself available and things happened. At any point in the process he could have chosen to not do it. Every decision was down to him. Same with xMM. I didn't hurt because of what the OW did I hurt because of what my H did.

 

I never was involved with a married man before or after. It was over 20 years from my D to the time I met xMM. The A was due to the man.

[Summer Breeze]

I don't get it either though. You have posted in the past about the MM spending long weekends with you and taking 3/4 day trips with you so apparently he didn't need to be at home 24/7 and his son survived. I would think it would have been easier if he had divorced because then his time with you could have been scheduled rather than stolen.

 

When one of them was left alone there was a private duty nurse hired. It wouldn't have been easier for them to divorce or one of them would have. Again that was their decision. Our time was scheduled. My job demanded I know weeks ahead of time what my schedule was so we never had stolen time.

[beenburned]

SB,

Thanks for your honest post!

 

Since you and your XH were both young when his affair happened, do you think now that you have matured, and also been on both sides of the triangle, that maybe you would have handled the situation differently.(with the knowledge you now have about affairs in general)

 

The reason I ask is that I read about people who are in 2nd marriages that get cheated on and they choose to reconcile, even though in their 1st marriage they divorced for this same reason.

[Summer Breeze]

SB,

Thanks for your honest post!

 

Since you and your XH were both young when his affair happened, do you think now that you have matured, and also been on both sides of the triangle, that maybe you would have handled the situation differently.(with the knowledge you now have about affairs in general)

 

The reason I ask is that I read about people who are in 2nd marriages that get cheated on and they choose to reconcile, even though in their 1st marriage they divorced for this same reason.

 

Not a problem BB.

 

It's been a dealbreaker for me for a long time. I saw what my father did to my mother with his affairs and it's still with me. It was something I told xH was a dealbreaker and every R I've been in I've done the same. I've never felt once a cheater always a cheater but I know that once someone lies to me it's over or at the very least never the same depending on the level of the R. That could be coworker, friend or someone I'm in a romantic R with. To answer your question about now. It's still an absolute dealbreaker for me. No questions asked. I'd rather be on my own and living my life rather than the pretend life someone builds for me while the real one is going on all around me but completely without me.

 

Thanks for actually having a dialogue about this. I know my A was different and I had someone PM me and blast me and accuse me of making it up. Whatever she wanted to believe is good by me. I never gave up myself in the A. I started it that way and I carried on throughout it. I don't have one regret about it. I'm sad it didn't work out because I love him but that's life. People date loads of others in their lifetimes and not many lead to marriage or even living together. Sometimes things work and sometimes they don't.

[pureinheart]

you honestly think people are 'more afraid' of affairs today than years ago? how many online communities regarding affairs do you alone belong to? do you not see how many are happy and 'unapologetic' mistresses there are? demonisation of affairs? i see more and more people proud of the fact that they are a mistress. i see more and more people disgusted by cheaters. please do not compare cheating with lying. you are mixing apples and oranges. they are not the same. lying about stealing a cookie is not even in the same book as lying to a spouse.

 

can you explain the comment on people being afraid of affairs? why aren't more mistresses speaking out about their affairs to their family and friends? why do they keep their affairs a secret? why aren't they more open about it, since in your view affairs are commonplace and everyone is your town is having one or had one? why do so many not even tell their very best friends that they are seeing a married person? is it due to shame? is it due to knowing their actions are not something to be celebrated and shouted from the rooftops?

 

I apologised to the OP for tj, so will start a new thread. I think I understand why there might be fear concerning affairs based on a personal experience. HF, I have to say this though...you seem to have all of the answers so why ask so many questions?

[Auntie Em]

I apologised to the OP for tj, so will start a new thread. I think I understand why there might be fear concerning affairs based on a personal experience. HF, I have to say this though...you seem to have all of the answers so why ask so many questions?

 

What a rude comment! Weren't you just complaining about internet bullies and how posters respond? Wow. Guess no one is allowed to ask questions (which were actually very good questions!)

 

can you explain the comment on people being afraid of affairs? why aren't more mistresses speaking out about their affairs to their family and friends? why do they keep their affairs a secret? why aren't they more open about it, since in your view affairs are commonplace and everyone is your town is having one or had one? why do so many not even tell their very best friends that they are seeing a married person? is it due to shame? is it due to knowing their actions are not something to be celebrated and shouted from the rooftops?