What Are Realistic Expectations In Dating?

[verhrzn]

It is an exaggeration because it makes your situation sound worse and sadder than it actually is - and hers, too.

 

I do think that an exaggeration is an exaggeration, in terms of the deed itself and the possible reasons behind it, regardless of how large or small it was. I did not intend this observation as an attack - rather, that perhaps both of you would benefit from some introspection into WHY you feel the need to exaggerate your woes. That may help you gain some insight into your own mindset.

 

I guess I've never seen it as an exaggeration because I've never tried to (but apparently have inadvertently) present it as a "no one finds me attractive." It's no one finds me PHYSICALLY attractive. I've had boyfriends, sure... but all but 1 of them pounded into my head how my body is unattractive, how my looks are awful, and how they're only dating me because of my personality/their desperation.

 

I've always seen it as something akin to the Friend Zone feelings guys experience.... That I'm around to soothe these guys' egos, and someone for them to waste time with and use, but not to actually love, cherish or be attracted to. The fact that it's slapped with a label of "relationship" doesn't change the dynamics, IMO.

 

My definition of success is not a "boyfriend," but "a boyfriend who actually likes me, isn't dating me out of desperation, and finds me physically attractive."

 

Mostly my lament is that I don't seem to fit the physical standards of what most guys want in a girlfriend, and I'm really frustrated how to change that. I could just start accepting that the only guys who are willing to date me are those that do so out of desperation or hopelessness that they'll get someone better, or let their attraction of my personality override their disgust at my body... but that seems insurmountably bleak.

[somedude81]

Come now, there are more than just those. But let us not harp on that.

 

My point was mostly that I, and probably others as well, am likely to feel sorrier for someone who has NO requirements and still cannot find a partner, than for someone who requires a girl to share his hobbies/live nearby/have long hair/have at least a B-cup/etc. So it was misleading at first to feel sorry for you assuming the former, and then find the latter out. It had me wondering if you were, at least on a subconscious level, trying to make people feel sorry for you. But perhaps I'm overanalyzing.

OK, then what is unreasonable about the bold part?

 

Don't forget that I said, that there are thousands of girls on my campus who meet all the requirements, except for the hobbies which I won't know about till I get to know her better.

 

IMO Elswyth, your location is affecting how you see my situation. A woman who lives within 20 miles, long hair, not fat, has at least a B-cup; actually describes the average girl where I live. They are everywhere.

 

Lastly, I'm not trying to get people to feel sorry for me, I want them to understand my situation and provide help on how I can change it. Since nobody here has offered me pity sex, sympathy is worthless.

That's not his problem IMO.

 

I know for a fact that my "requirements" (not a fan of that term, sounds cold) are not what holds me back, as much as my confidence and attitude towards dating and life in general. I find that they fluctuate at a great deal, and at inopportune times aswell, and it is only until I get past that issue will I completely get to the point where I can successfully date without fearing the outcome or depending on the outcome in any fashion.

 

This is also Somedude's problem. His lack of confidence is holding him back and affecting his attitude, and he exacerbates this problem by attributing this to his lack of dating experiences. Whether it is true or not, he should try and recondition himself to not believe this is so, and once he short circuits this particular mode of thinking, he will find that he will start to try more, even if he still lacks a little bit of confidence, much in the way that I have. I talk to girls more often and try to be a bit more daring, even though I'm still not doing as good as I would like. But if I can do this stuff, Somedude can do it too, he just needs to find a way to rediscover where his lack of confidence truly lies.

After talking extensively about this subject, I have determined that my lack of success is caused by me not knowing what to do with girls, and that lack of knowing leads to inaction.

 

Right now I feel that my biggest fault is that I don't know how to flirt sexually with a girl. I joke and tease, but it's all innocent and goofy. Therefore women only see me as a friend, and when I get the nerve to ask them out, they always reject me.

[ThaWholigan]

After talking extensively about this subject, I have determined that my lack of success is caused by me not knowing what to do with girls, and that lack of knowing leads to inaction.

 

Right now I feel that my biggest fault is that I don't know how to flirt sexually with a girl. I joke and tease, but it's all innocent and goofy. Therefore women only see me as a friend, and when I get the nerve to ask them out, they always reject me.

 

This is absolutely understandable, I had the same conclusion in 2009. I had just turned 21, had never even kissed a girl and did not know how to even initiate an intimate encounter with a girl. Fast forward, and I still haven't got anywhere particular of note, but I'm gaining confidence and learning about people and what they respond to, how to create attraction, and more importantly, how to be attractive to people, especially women.

 

When it comes to sexual innuendo, you have to be really confident naturally to be able to pull off a direct sexual comment. I have only tried it once, and by fluke I managed to get a positive response. It's all about timing with girls. It's not a linear progression when you're talking to them, it usually has spikes. Joking and teasing is good, but supplement that with more intelligent conversations as well as rapport building ones. And every now and then, throw in an indirect sexual reference or if you're witty enough, a double entendre, and it will not only endear you to her, but will put you in a slightly more sexual light. I have tried some of this stuff sporadically and have had positive responses to it on the occasions that I've tried it, only to then allow my bull**** lack of confidence to cockblock me. But the fact that it kicked in so quickly means that I'm stepping more and more out of my comfort zone so I'm doing it right, and eventually I'll get somewhere.

 

Somedude, you need to get creative. Read lots. Get information. Torrents are free, download them, read books on conversing and how to be funny. Write things down. You say you're an endomorph or whatever. Nail down a solid balanced diet, lift heavy, lots of stretches and do a martial art (that's what I'm currently planning for now). Attend gigs, events, whatever, and just talk freely to people, and girls will respond more. This is stuff I did to get out of my head and start interacting. Put your lack of experience on the back burner. For now, you're just a guy talking to someone else. Read Power Of Now by Eckhart Tolle. Great book. Download books on conversation, and (dare I say it) get some PUA stuff. You attended Tyler Durden's bootcamp, what exactly did you learn? There's some PUA stuff out there that is incompatible with some people, you gotta sift through a lot of stuff to get to the good bits. It's like football......you get some coaches that play a style incompatible with the style of some of the players, and they get sidelined and have to leave.

 

Trust me, it will get better, just need to step out of your head for a bit. I know it's difficult, I have a really big brain that never stops going like a train, it's really hard to get control of it. But you do your best. And you get nearer to the goal.

[somedude81]

Thanks for the sharing your story and the advice.

 

One thing I need to say is that I've read a ton of material. I've been aware of the PU culture for almost ten years. Though for some reason it just hasn't clicked with me. I think a big problem is that there is so much material, I can't find anything that feels relevant to me.

 

What I need the most is practice and feedback to know if I'm doing something right or wrong. So far all I've gotten is negative feedback. For me, trial and error isn't an effective way to learn. I rather not screw up 1,000 times and then get it right on the 1,001 time.

[ThaWholigan]

Thanks for the sharing your story and the advice.

 

One thing I need to say is that I've read a ton of material. I've been aware of the PU culture for almost ten years. Though for some reason it just hasn't clicked with me. I think a big problem is that there is so much material, I can't find anything that feels relevant to me.

 

What I need the most is practice and feedback to know if I'm doing something right or wrong. So far all I've gotten is negative feedback. For me, trial and error isn't an effective way to learn. I rather not screw up 1,000 times and then get it right on the 1,001 time.

 

This is the bad news:

 

Trial and Error is the ONLY way to learn!!

 

I'll repeat it...

 

Trial and Error is the ONLY way to learn!!

 

This is something I had to come to terms with. I hated being rejected, and I hated being embarrassed. But I hated a lot of things as a kid. I hated being teased, I would run away and go home and not speak to people for days. What happened was I started to ask myself "what was the big deal?". I got hard to it. I reacted with a few friendly retorts of my own. I got used to it. At first I couldn't tease, now I can do it comfortably.

 

I learned how to play piano through trial and error. I knew the keyboard inside and out, but that didn't mean I was the most technically gifted player. I played wrong notes all the time on stage, at times in front of thousands of people. I hated that too. I was a perfectionist at that age, I didn't like it when things went wrong.

 

But I relaxed, and I came to love trial and error. I am now conditioning myself to see life itself as trial and error. And learning to enjoy the process. Because after the process you get the result. But the result isn't ongoing. It's the end. Then it gets boring after that. So you will have to condition yourself to love getting things wrong! Sounds stupid? It is stupid! But so is life, life can throw some ridiculous obstacles in your way at times, it's up to you to find ways to get around them.

 

You can learn so much from failing. When I failed school, I learned a lot about academia and education, plus what I was willing to do with it. When I failed to attract the one girl I was close to falling for, I learned what not to do around girls and how to offset that. When I failed while practicing, I learned to stop thinking when I was playing piano. As a result, I could play better and more freely, and even became highly adept at improvising.

 

As for material, I don't know if you are aware of Carlos Xuma, but I have had the most joy out of his material, primarily because it is more geared toward simple improvements as opposed to wacky, out there pick-up lines. Things like improving conversations, learning social games people play, finding a purpose, teasing, sexual innuendo etc. He is also a martial arts instructor, so he does emphasize that a little in his points. If you want to learn how to create sexual innuendo effectively, there's some others I can look at, I'm not quite so adept at that yet, but I could get the info on how to do it.

[Dust]

This is the bad news:

 

Trial and Error is the ONLY way to learn!!

 

I'll repeat it...

 

 

That's not bad news at all. He already knows what he needs to do. You can lead a somedude to water but you can't make him drink. Only he can take himself out of the loop he has put himself in.

[somedude81]

I've never had the toughness to handle repeated failure. All each failure does it make me feel worse. It's all part of the depression thing.

 

I'll look into Carlos Xuma.

[ThaWholigan]

I've never had the toughness to handle repeated failure. All each failure does it make me feel worse. It's all part of the depression thing.

 

I'll look into Carlos Xuma.

 

Toughness is there to be built up. Depression is difficult, I can think of people close to me right now suffering from it. But whether it affects you or not, you can find a network that supports you somehow, and you can slowly ween yourself into being a more interactive person and more attractive to people around you. Having a gregarious social life is a great medicine. I don't allow the darkness within people to affect my love for them.

 

Repeated failure can only come from making the same mistakes really. I would write down things, keep a diary or journal, and write down your experience and really analyze them. I am naturally an analytical person so I may not need to write them down, but you must study your interactions closely, and see where you could say something different, or react differently.

 

The best thing you can do is to practice being non-reactive to things, as after this, you will generally start to be more relaxed about things. Don't place too high an importance on talking to girls. Don't even "ask them out", you could just say something like:

 

"Hey love what's happening"

"Heeyyy, nothing much, whats up?"

"A lot, but I'm good still, was gonna head into town to see [insert whatever attraction that will be in town for a couple of days], you should come, what days good for you, Tuesday or Wednesday?"

 

Give her the choice of Tuesday or Wednesday, NOT yes or no. She has to "go out of her way" to reject you (Xuma taught me that one right there ). Don't even worry if she says no, just say "Aight cool, well, you have a good day, I'll call [whoever else you're gonna bring] and see if their free"

 

No emotional investments. Right now, they are all potentials.

[krz12]

I guess I've never seen it as an exaggeration because I've never tried to (but apparently have inadvertently) present it as a "no one finds me attractive." It's no one finds me PHYSICALLY attractive.

 

Mostly my lament is that I don't seem to fit the physical standards of what most guys want in a girlfriend, and I'm really frustrated how to change that. I could just start accepting that the only guys who are willing to date me are those that do so out of desperation or hopelessness that they'll get someone better, or let their attraction of my personality override their disgust at my body... but that seems insurmountably bleak.

 

Forgive my vulgarity.

 

But if you're actually a girl who isn't fat, with a huge rack, and who plays world of warcraft/goes to comiccon/etc, well, there are definitely a lot of guys who fantasize about you.

 

Take that for what its worth.

[joystickd]

Well, guys never give me the opportunity reject or say yes either way, so that luckily isn't a problem!

 

What would the female Kaylan look like?...

 

Somedude would never date me. He's got 'standards,' remember, and he'd only drop them to my level as a form of desperation. I not nearly thin or young enough for him. I've dated guys exactly like him in the past, and they've always dumped me for someone hotter once they've gotten their confidence rates up by succeeding with one woman (lucky number one me.)

Damn you need to meet me let me work my charm on you and show you a good time. You would love it and whenever you ready give you the most intense orgasms you ever had

[somedude81]

Damn you need to meet me let me work my charm on you and show you a good time. You would love it and whenever you ready give you the most intense orgasms you ever had

And another walks onto the web...

[Els]

OK, then what is unreasonable about the bold part?

 

Don't forget that I said, that there are thousands of girls on my campus who meet all the requirements, except for the hobbies which I won't know about till I get to know her better.

 

As I have said, the reason I brought it up wasn't because I thought it was unreasonable. It was because I saw a parallel in you and V's pessimistic assessments of your dating life and felt that it was an exaggeration. Let us just agree to disagree on this, as I really don't know how to explain myself any further.

 

IMO Elswyth, your location is affecting how you see my situation. A woman who lives within 20 miles, long hair, not fat, has at least a B-cup; actually describes the average girl where I live. They are everywhere.

 

What about the sharing your hobby requirement? Do you think that is common? And what about the more important requirements like her being a good and kind person, honest and considerate, drama and baggage-free, etc?

 

Lastly, I'm not trying to get people to feel sorry for me, I want them to understand my situation and provide help on how I can change it. Since nobody here has offered me pity sex, sympathy is worthless.

 

Fair enough.

 

I guess I've never seen it as an exaggeration because I've never tried to (but apparently have inadvertently) present it as a "no one finds me attractive." It's no one finds me PHYSICALLY attractive. I've had boyfriends, sure... but all but 1 of them pounded into my head how my body is unattractive, how my looks are awful, and how they're only dating me because of my personality/their desperation.

 

I've always seen it as something akin to the Friend Zone feelings guys experience.... That I'm around to soothe these guys' egos, and someone for them to waste time with and use, but not to actually love, cherish or be attracted to. The fact that it's slapped with a label of "relationship" doesn't change the dynamics, IMO.

 

My definition of success is not a "boyfriend," but "a boyfriend who actually likes me, isn't dating me out of desperation, and finds me physically attractive."

 

The issue is that the men you happened to date were jerks. Why are you allowing a few years' experience with them to cause you to think that you will be 'alone forever'? Come on, even you have to admit that that is a bit of a fatalistic exaggeration.

 

Let me put it this way - assuming you WERE indeed more physically attractive. Do you think your relationship with those men, who only used you before moving on to the next hotter girl, would have succeeded? Perhaps for a bit longer... but eventually there will always be someone hotter. You're just lucky their true colors were exposed before you ended up with a marriage and kids.

 

Mostly my lament is that I don't seem to fit the physical standards of what most guys want in a girlfriend, and I'm really frustrated how to change that. I could just start accepting that the only guys who are willing to date me are those that do so out of desperation or hopelessness that they'll get someone better, or let their attraction of my personality override their disgust at my body... but that seems insurmountably bleak.

 

I don't know why you've never managed to meet any (I've offered a few hypotheses in the past that you've shut down), but you really need to believe that there are indeed men for whom getting the hottest girl around ISN'T a priority.

[verhrzn]

The issue is that the men you happened to date were jerks. Why are you allowing a few years' experience with them to cause you to think that you will be 'alone forever'? Come on, even you have to admit that that is a bit of a fatalistic exaggeration.

 

Let me put it this way - assuming you WERE indeed more physically attractive. Do you think your relationship with those men, who only used you before moving on to the next hotter girl, would have succeeded? Perhaps for a bit longer... but eventually there will always be someone hotter. You're just lucky their true colors were exposed before you ended up with a marriage and kids.

 

I'd be more than happy to label the guys I dated as jerks, but the fact is, they weren't. All of them have gone on to find relationships (usually with the girl they dumped me for) that they've now dated for several years. The girls seem deliriously happy. So it seems that they didn't need the hottest girl... they just needed someone who, well, wasn't ugly.

 

 

I don't know why you've never managed to meet any (I've offered a few hypotheses in the past that you've shut down), but you really need to believe that there are indeed men for whom getting the hottest girl around ISN'T a priority.

 

Oh I totally believe that. I know such men exist. Problem is... they're all taken. A guy who doesn't put so much emphasis on physical appearance and likes a girl for who she is (and is otherwise a good catch)? Those guys would get snatched up in a heart beat! I just don't believe there are any single men out there that don't require a high standard of looks.

 

Additionally, I do have this hang-up that would prevent me from dating such a guy as you mention... I WANT my potential-boyfriend to find me really physically attractive. I don't want to date a guy who doesn't mind that I'm not hot, that is attracted to my personality. I want a guy who is attracted to both. Someone who actually thinks I'm a catch.

 

Now, perhaps this is an unrealistic standard, which is what I'm trying to figure out. If this is an unrealistic standard, can I abandon it? Or will I make this standard my deal-breaker?

[Els]

I'd be more than happy to label the guys I dated as jerks, but the fact is, they weren't. All of them have gone on to find relationships (usually with the girl they dumped me for) that they've now dated for several years. The girls seem deliriously happy. So it seems that they didn't need the hottest girl... they just needed someone who, well, wasn't ugly.

 

Hrm. Okay...

 

 

 

 

Oh I totally believe that. I know such men exist. Problem is... they're all taken. A guy who doesn't put so much emphasis on physical appearance and likes a girl for who she is (and is otherwise a good catch)? Those guys would get snatched up in a heart beat! I just don't believe there are any single men out there that don't require a high standard of looks.

 

Additionally, I do have this hang-up that would prevent me from dating such a guy as you mention... I WANT my potential-boyfriend to find me really physically attractive. I don't want to date a guy who doesn't mind that I'm not hot, that is attracted to my personality. I want a guy who is attracted to both. Someone who actually thinks I'm a catch.

 

I think it's entirely possible, for some people, to be so attracted to someone's personality and intellect, that you love looking at them and are physically attracted to them even if they wouldn't qualify for Miss World or Mr. Universe. Have you never felt that? That a guy isn't the hottest in the class/workplace, doesn't have the perfect muscled body or the perfect height or the perfect features, but you feel incredibly attracted to him because of what he says or does or how he acts? Even more so than towards the other guy who objectively looks better?

 

Now, perhaps this is an unrealistic standard, which is what I'm trying to figure out. If this is an unrealistic standard, can I abandon it? Or will I make this standard my deal-breaker?

 

If it matters THAT much to you that a guy objectively thinks you hot in the stereotypical sense, then it would make sense for you to put even more effort into that. Plenty of posters have given advice in that aspect.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Elswyth

[zengirl]

Everyone posting here has a varying sense of their own worth and the worth of the people they date--even the ones saying they pay no attention to any of that. We just don't like to think these things about ourselves because they make us feel shallow.

 

You're missing my point about leagues. They don't exist because of the very thing you're describing: variance. People's ideas about worth and desires VARY. Thus leagues are not really possible.

 

One unrealistic expectation most women seem to have is that men should approach them. IMO you make your own opportunities.

 

True dat. Just thought it was a hidden gem in here worth repeating.

 

I'd be more than happy to label the guys I dated as jerks, but the fact is, they weren't. All of them have gone on to find relationships (usually with the girl they dumped me for) that they've now dated for several years. The girls seem deliriously happy. So it seems that they didn't need the hottest girl... they just needed someone who, well, wasn't ugly.

 

If someone told you they were only dating you (using you temporarily) because they were desperate and they thought you were ugly, then they are a jerk. They mistreated you and behaved as a jerk. It doesn't matter how they are with someone else---they were still a jerk with you, and it's not your fault they were a jerk. They might still be a jerk. Plenty of jerks are in committed relationships.

 

REALITY CHECK: Your self esteem is dangerously low if you would LET someone speak to you that way and KEEP dating them. It's the same dangerously low self-esteem that allows you to think you're ugly. You're not. You're young, awkward, with no confidence, and a fatalistic complex about dating that's keeping you down; you seek jerks (probably subconsciously) who believe what you believe about your self-worth (that it's low), as many young women with low self-worth do. You're not really unique in this; it's a common thing, and most young women who experience it grow out of it. You can choose to do so sooner, rather than later, or you can wallow in it.

 

Someone like Iris's experiences are a different matter because she knows her worth and likes herself. She's just in a crap area and that's life (priorities matter too). I don't know your area, OP, but it wouldn't matter if you were the only girl left in a world of single men: you'd still struggle because you don't have enough self-worth.

[aj22one]

If someone told you they were only dating you (using you temporarily) because they were desperate and they thought you were ugly, then they are a jerk. They mistreated you and behaved as a jerk. It doesn't matter how they are with someone else---they were still a jerk with you, and it's not your fault they were a jerk. They might still be a jerk. Plenty of jerks are in committed relationships.

 

REALITY CHECK: Your self esteem is dangerously low if you would LET someone speak to you that way and KEEP dating them. It's the same dangerously low self-esteem that allows you to think you're ugly. You're not. You're young, awkward, with no confidence, and a fatalistic complex about dating that's keeping you down; you seek jerks (probably subconsciously) who believe what you believe about your self-worth (that it's low), as many young women with low self-worth do. You're not really unique in this; it's a common thing, and most young women who experience it grow out of it. You can choose to do so sooner, rather than later, or you can wallow in it.

 

 

I don't always agree with what zengirl posts, but when I do, it's when she says things like this.

 

Re-read this OP, again and again until it sinks in.

[verhrzn]

REALITY CHECK: Your self esteem is dangerously low if you would LET someone speak to you that way and KEEP dating them. It's the same dangerously low self-esteem that allows you to think you're ugly. You're not. You're young, awkward, with no confidence, and a fatalistic complex about dating that's keeping you down; you seek jerks (probably subconsciously) who believe what you believe about your self-worth (that it's low), as many young women with low self-worth do. You're not really unique in this; it's a common thing, and most young women who experience it grow out of it. You can choose to do so sooner, rather than later, or you can wallow in it.

 

I suppose this is the question I keep cycling back to, but what exactly is the difference between low self esteem and being realistic? For example, in the cases of my ex-boyfriends, I did seriously consider dumping them... but my friends told me I was being insecure and unrealistic. If the entire world is telling you the sky is green, aren't you the crazy one for thinking it's blue?

[aj22one]

I suppose this is the question I keep cycling back to, but what exactly is the difference between low self esteem and being realistic? For example, in the cases of my ex-boyfriends, I did seriously consider dumping them... but my friends told me I was being insecure and unrealistic. If the entire world is telling you the sky is green, aren't you the crazy one for thinking it's blue?

 

Perhaps you need some better friends.

[Alma Mobley]

I suppose this is the question I keep cycling back to, but what exactly is the difference between low self esteem and being realistic? For example, in the cases of my ex-boyfriends, I did seriously consider dumping them... but my friends told me I was being insecure and unrealistic. If the entire world is telling you the sky is green, aren't you the crazy one for thinking it's blue?

 

Most people try to extricate themselves from relationships as easily as possible. They say things like, "you are a nice guy/girl but..." or "I am just not feeling the chemistry" or "I am sorry, but I don't see you as anything more than a friend."(And in this last case, this can be said even if you are FWB.) So, when you got dumped by being told you were not attractive enough and the guy was desperate, this was said for a reason. It was intended to inflict maximum pain and mess up your self esteem. So either the men did ths during a bad break up with you (for whatever reason) ... Or they were jerks. Stop internalizing their words.

[Emilia]

I suppose this is the question I keep cycling back to, but what exactly is the difference between low self esteem and being realistic? For example, in the cases of my ex-boyfriends, I did seriously consider dumping them... but my friends told me I was being insecure and unrealistic. If the entire world is telling you the sky is green, aren't you the crazy one for thinking it's blue?

 

Sounds like you select both your friends and your boyfriends from the same personality types. Do they all come from socially awkward/gaming/geeky/introverted background?

[verhrzn]

Sounds like you select both your friends and your boyfriends from the same personality types. Do they all come from socially awkward/gaming/geeky/introverted background?

 

Yes, actually they do. My friends' personalities are best described as.... a little unrefined. They call it "honesty."

[Lonely Ronin]

I suppose this is the question I keep cycling back to, but what exactly is the difference between low self esteem and being realistic? For example, in the cases of my ex-boyfriends, I did seriously consider dumping them... but my friends told me I was being insecure and unrealistic. If the entire world is telling you the sky is green, aren't you the crazy one for thinking it's blue?

 

Realistic is knowing you're not going to turn heads like Kate Upton (or any other super model), low self esteem is being treated like garbage, and believing it's all your fault.

 

Look, men & women, young and old on this forum have all told you your old boyfreinds are jerks. I agree with aj22one 100%, if your friends know you where treated like this, and still think it's your problem & not the guys, then you seriously need to get some new friends. If a guy said this to one of my female friends, He probably would have gotten a full arm extension bit** slap.

[FitChick]

When are you going to call Shelly Lefkoe to set up a phone therapy session? She had a lifelong weight and body image problem so she'll certainly know which buttons (beliefs) to push/eliminate to help you quicker than conventional therapy. Good luck!

[zengirl]

I suppose this is the question I keep cycling back to, but what exactly is the difference between low self esteem and being realistic? For example, in the cases of my ex-boyfriends, I did seriously consider dumping them... but my friends told me I was being insecure and unrealistic. If the entire world is telling you the sky is green, aren't you the crazy one for thinking it's blue?

 

First of all, the "entire world" is not telling you anything. You've spread pics on LS, and many people have said that not only did you NOT get clubbed by the ugly stick BUT you are actually quite pretty. Granted, I understand some people photograph better than they look (just as some photograph worse than they look) in person, but the camera is not a magical vessel that re-arranges your features totally.

 

Instead the people you've sought out to surround yourself with are telling you these things for some reason. Honesty is all well and good; I consider myself a very honest person, brutally honest at times. Your 'friends' aren't being honest if they're telling you that you're Quasimodo or hideously ugly or something. For one, I've seen pictures, and you're totally not. For another, it's not an appropriate thing to repeatedly say to someone. I mean, how does that even come up? "Btw, you're really ugly!" The only people who say crap like that are *******s with low self esteem who make fun of people they hope are even weaker so they can feel better about themselves.

 

Stop playing the role of prey in those situations. Get better friends. Get REAL friends who treat you with respect and care. Either that, or if some of this is actually happening in your head and you're misreading what these friends say (people do that), stop twisting your interactions with your friends into these experiences.

 

To you, the "entire world" is telling you that you're ugly because that's the only stuff you hear. People on LS have told you IN MANY THREADS that you are NOT at ALL ugly. That data means nothing to you. I bet there have been other data points IRL where you've gotten positive input and ignored/forgotten/etc it because it didn't fit with your worldview where you are a hideous crone that disgusts people. You just internalize and only really hear that negative input.

 

ETA: And many of my friends are nerdy, geeky gamer-types as well, so it's not that those people are (a) all socially awkward (sure, some of my friends are a bit socially awkward, but mostly no worse than just a bit introverted) or (b) that socially awkward people generally even behave that way. Tons of social awkwardness manifests as mere shyness or slowness in getting to know someone, no biggie. Acting like an ******* goes beyond social awkwardness unless the person has an actual disorder that prevents them from knowing better. Even then, most ASD kids, for example, can learn not to accidentally be *******s most of the time.

Edited January 23, 2012 by zengirl

[EnigmaticClarity]

One thing I need to say is that I've read a ton of material. I've been aware of the PU culture for almost ten years. Though for some reason it just hasn't clicked with me. I think a big problem is that there is so much material, I can't find anything that feels relevant to me.

 

That's very surprising--most of the introductory PU material is geared towards physical contact and escalation to make a woman see you as more than a friend and more like someone who they feel physical attraction to. Why were you unable to relate to that stuff? Your expressed problem of being too nice and not escalating sounds like you should have been able to relate.