What Are Realistic Expectations In Dating?

[EnigmaticClarity]

I find it hard to believe people always tell you that you're ugly (not hard to believe it's happened from time to time---believe it or not, even really beautiful people are called ugly at some point, especially if they appear as weak and eager to believe it as you are; it's an ego/power trip thing people do), based on seeing your pictures. I think likely you are missing positive input and over-focusing on negative input, which only you can change.

 

I searched back and found the threads where she posted her pictures, but I see they're hidden now on Photobucket. However, I can guess what she looks like from the comments in past threads where she's posted them--somewhere around average to above-average. Other posters gave her a 7, she reduced herself to a 5 or so without makeup. That means to me she's not as "ugly" as she keeps maintaining she is. I place myself in that same numerical range, and I'm proud of it. I think I look great--not NEARLY flawless or model-ready, but quite good. And I see lots of women who look similar to this attractiveness range who get down on themselves FAR too much for looks that are realistically above-average. My current girlfriend is like this, and it's obsessive, but I know part of my girlfriend's self-esteem is resting upon those above-average-but-not-world-class looks, and that's not healthy. Maybe verhrzn is as well, but I don't get that sense. I wish women who think like this could put themselves into better perspective like I feel I have with myself, and I feel compelled to help them do so.

 

If you're average or above-average, it's disrespectful to people who actually are ugly to call yourself ugly. I don't get the sense that verhrzn's self-esteem is indelibly attached to her appearance as I do with many women, but that she's trying to get a realistic sense for it to know what to expect in dating. I could be wrong about that, but she seems fairly stable, although quite pessimistic when it comes to dating. I think determining your realistic comparative value is a very healthy thing in dating--once your self-esteem is there, we should all have a sense for how we stack up. It has always helped me to pick who to date and feel like there is parity between us.

 

So without seeing pics but seeing other's opinions about them, I feel fairly good about saying she needs a much more realistic sense of how men see her, because it's likely to not be nearly as bad as she appears to thinks it is.

Edited January 24, 2012 by EnigmaticClarity

[verhrzn]

Uhm, okay, to be fair to SD, I think we should remove the 'only' part in my post. He did mention in a thread that he doesn't try for 'hot' girls because he thinks they'll reject him, but I guess that may not be the only reason.

 

Yeah, perhaps. That's just my "Hulk Smash" button.... guys who complain about girls always rejecting them for superficial reasons when they are chasing the super-hot-desirable girls, and dating lesser-hot girls merely out of desperation or boredom.

 

Other posters gave her a 7, she reduced herself to a 5 or so without makeup. That means to me she's not as "ugly" as she keeps maintaining she is. I place myself in that same numerical range, and I'm proud of it. I think I look great--not NEARLY flawless or model-ready, but quite good. And I see lots of women who look similar to this attractiveness range who get down on themselves FAR too much for looks that are realistically above-average. My current girlfriend is like this, and it's obsessive, but I know part of my girlfriend's self-esteem is resting upon those above-average-but-not-world-class looks, and that's not healthy. Maybe verhrzn is as well, but I don't get that sense. I wish women who think like this could put themselves into better perspective like I feel I have with myself, and I feel compelled to help them do so.

 

I'm glad you're supporting your girlfriend to see herself in a positive light, and that you're proud of your nice-but-not-model looks. I think it's difficult, though, for guys to wrap their heads around just how pervasive the idea of being physically attractive is for women. From infancy, we're taught that being beautiful is linked to being a good person if you're female. (The princess is always beautiful and kind, or beautiful and smart, or beautiful and tenacious.)

 

Being physically attractive is tied so much in what the culture considers feminine.... if you're not gorgeous, it's like you're less than a woman. Our value is still based so much on how we look. ("Women become irrelevant in the entertainment world as soon as nobody wants to f*ck them. What about Betty White? Easy, people still want to f*ck Betty White."-Tina Fey) You can beautiful AND other things, but you better be beautiful first.

 

If you're average or above-average, it's disrespectful to people who actually are ugly to call yourself ugly. I don't get the sense that verhrzn's self-esteem is indelibly attached to her appearance as I do with many women, but that she's trying to get a realistic sense for it to know what to expect in dating. I could be wrong about that, but she seems fairly stable, although quite pessimistic when it comes to dating. I think determining your realistic comparative value is a very healthy thing in dating--once your self-esteem is there, we should all have a sense for how we stack up. It has always helped me to pick who to date and feel like there is parity between us.

 

So without seeing pics but seeing other's opinions about them, I feel fairly good about saying she needs a much more realistic sense of how men see her, because it's likely to not be nearly as bad as she appears to thinks it is.

 

I would adore a realistic perspective on how guys see me in terms of physical appearance. My friends are utterly worthless... they shrug and say "I dunno" if I ask. One of my friends said on an average day I was a 5, and when I get dressed up I'm like a 6.5. I tried getting really dressed up one day (goth-style corset, high heels, etc.) and he just said I looked like I was "trying too hard." My exes have always sighted my personality and stated they didn't even know I existed, romantically/sexually, until they got to know me.

 

In other words, I have NO idea how I come across to guys, and what sort of guys are even attracted to me (if any.)

[zengirl]

Honestly, I've had the worst luck in the last two. I think living in Japan actually heightened my bitterness. Beauty standards are even more stringent there than here (due to the homogeneous nature of the culture, perhaps?) and I experienced this weird in-between... I wasn't foreign enough to be interesting (short, brunette, no crazy piercings or tattoos) and I wasn't "Japanese" enough to fit in (I spoke some Japanese, but I was nowhere near fluent, and I was far too.... emotional?, about the whole thing.)

 

Okay, first of all, I've lived in Japan and South Korea (about a year each), which have pretty similar beauty cultures, though Japan is a bit better about accepting broader ethnicity (it's just more Americanized), at least in the larger cities. I am half-Japanese (the other half white - a mix of French and Dutch, mostly) and I'm fluent. My writing sucks, but my speech is fine. In Japan, my experience is EVERY foreign woman has trouble dating. I was halfsies, but there were still plenty of Japanese boys that wouldn't date me -- I wouldn't make a good Japanese wife, as I was American and going back to America -- plus I like conversing in English, as I imagine you do, and thus I required someone with reasonable fluency, which leaves you mostly with expat males (and a few outstanding Japanese men who are fairly westernized and interested in expat women, who are probably your best bet of the group but RARE, especially anywhere outside of Tokyo). IME, MOST expat males in Asia are not BF material. Many are poorly socialized jerks who have either no skills for a relationship or no interest. Some are just fun drifters. Many are very shallow. And, yes, most date the local women (even those who are great and not shallow jerks---I'm not saying dating the locals makes you shallow by ANY means); some are serious about them and really date them, and some just dabble. I'm not saying ALL the guys there are jerks---I hate to stereotype; I just. . . know those guys.

 

And yes, I found a few to date, but it was DIFFICULT (and I'm not only super cute, but actually really confident, friendly, and positive about myself, all of which are extremely valued in expat culture; people who are carrying around baggage aren't really attractive to expats, who tend to want to travel light!). It's a totally unfair place to judge your dating value as a white, expat American woman, is all I'm saying. I struggled in dating there, despite fluency and Japanese heritage. It's just not a good locale. So. . . get over it.

 

I searched back and found the threads where she posted her pictures, but I see they're hidden now on Photobucket. However, I can guess what she looks like from the comments in past threads where she's posted them--somewhere around average to above-average. Other posters gave her a 7, she reduced herself to a 5 or so without makeup. That means to me she's not as "ugly" as she keeps maintaining she is. I place myself in that same numerical range, and I'm proud of it.

 

FTR, I think if we have to reduce people to #s, she's definitely not a 5. 7, maybe? She's very nerdy girl cute, with a nice body and a sweet face. Plenty of guys would find her attractive---MORE would, if she found herself attractive.

[Els]

Yeah, perhaps. That's just my "Hulk Smash" button.... guys who complain about girls always rejecting them for superficial reasons when they are chasing the super-hot-desirable girls, and dating lesser-hot girls merely out of desperation or boredom.

 

Hehe, yeah, we all have one of those buttons, I suppose, just for different things. I really don't think SD is chasing the super-hot girls though.

 

 

I think it's difficult, though, for guys to wrap their heads around just how pervasive the idea of being physically attractive is for women. From infancy, we're taught that being beautiful is linked to being a good person if you're female. (The princess is always beautiful and kind, or beautiful and smart, or beautiful and tenacious.)

 

Being physically attractive is tied so much in what the culture considers feminine.... if you're not gorgeous, it's like you're less than a woman. Our value is still based so much on how we look.

 

This is true. People who claim that guys are judged every bit as much based on their appearance as women are, generally do not know what they are talking about (note that most of them are men). I think it's the equivalent of saying that a woman knows exactly what being kicked in the balls feels like. We don't, and we never will.

 

("Women become irrelevant in the entertainment world as soon as nobody wants to f*ck them. What about Betty White? Easy, people still want to f*ck Betty White."-Tina Fey) You can beautiful AND other things, but you better be beautiful first.

 

Well, to be fair, I think the entertainment industry in particular places a grotesque amount of emphasis on appearance, not only for women, but also for men. If one does not want one's worth and career success to be heavily based on appearance, one should not join the entertainment industry, period. That is a large reason I chose a career line in which my worth would be judged primarily by intelligence and skill.

 

I would adore a realistic perspective on how guys see me in terms of physical appearance. My friends are utterly worthless... they shrug and say "I dunno" if I ask. One of my friends said on an average day I was a 5, and when I get dressed up I'm like a 6.5. I tried getting really dressed up one day (goth-style corset, high heels, etc.) and he just said I looked like I was "trying too hard."

 

I may not be a fashion guru, but I would definitely think that a goth-style corset would be weird, except perhaps to a party or some sort of themed bar.

 

My exes have always sighted my personality and stated they didn't even know I existed, romantically/sexually, until they got to know me.

 

In other words, I have NO idea how I come across to guys, and what sort of guys are even attracted to me (if any.)

 

Please stop placing weight on what those exes said.

[xxoo]

I'm glad you're supporting your girlfriend to see herself in a positive light, and that you're proud of your nice-but-not-model looks. I think it's difficult, though, for guys to wrap their heads around just how pervasive the idea of being physically attractive is for women. From infancy, we're taught that being beautiful is linked to being a good person if you're female.

 

Men tend to be less critical of what they see in the mirror. They also tend to be less critical of women than women are of themselves.

 

I was listening to NPR recently, to a story about women and their relationship with the mirror. The speaker said that women use the mirror as a "fault finder" (probably not the exact term used).

 

She shared a story told to her by an 80 year old woman. The woman said that, when she looked in the mirror, she saw a shriveled up old woman. But when her husband looked in the mirror, he saw a strong, virile 25 year old! lol!

 

I think there is a lot of truth to that

 

But--I also bet, when the 80 year old woman's husband looks at her, he sees a beautiful 25 year old

 

When you look in the mirror, give yourself the benefit of viewing through the eyes of someone who truly loves you.

[EnigmaticClarity]

FTR, I think if we have to reduce people to #s, she's definitely not a 5. 7, maybe? She's very nerdy girl cute, with a nice body and a sweet face. Plenty of guys would find her attractive---MORE would, if she found herself attractive.

 

Good lord. Zen, you seem to have yourself in perspective--why do so many women have the obsessive need to think of themselves as gorgeous or ugly with few degrees in-between, when in reality, the VAST majority of us fall between the extremes? Prettiest girl in the room or not worth a damn? What's with the extremes?

[EnigmaticClarity]

Men tend to be less critical of what they see in the mirror. They also tend to be less critical of women than women are of themselves.

 

I don't think I'm most men. I think I can list for you ALL of my flaws--facial features, skin, body, everywhere. Almost every inch. I think I'm absolutely realistic. I don't tie my self-esteem to my looks, though, and that's what empowers my realistic view. If I get in a car accident today and get scarred, or confined to a wheelchair, I think I'd be fine with a limited life. A life filled with pain or horrific multilation would be a different thing, but if I lost what I have but am relatively healthy and don't scare kids walking down the street? Not a problem.

 

In general though, I'd agree with you about how men see themselves, and I think of myself as an exception. I also think women are much closer to the other extreme--they exaggerate their flaws. I STRONGLY feel that comparative reality is a much more comforting place to be--regardless of where you fall on it, on the beautiful side or the ugly side. If I were a 2, I'd want to know it.

[jobaba]

Men tend to be less critical of what they see in the mirror. They also tend to be less critical of women than women are of themselves.

 

I don't think I'm most men. I think I can list for you ALL of my flaws--facial features, skin, body, everywhere. Almost every inch. I think I'm absolutely realistic.

 

In general though, I'd agree with you about how men see themselves, and I think of myself as an exception. I also think women are much closer to the other extreme--they exaggerate their flaws. I STRONGLY feel that comparative reality is a much more comforting place to be--regardless of where you fall on it, on the beautiful side or the ugly side. If I were a 2, I'd want to know it.

 

I dunno. I'm a man and I'm pretty realistic in terms of my looks too. I'm conscious of my facial features, build, hair, clothing, and height and race. I'm aware that I'm probably pretty low on the totem pole (lower than 5, average) but I try to keep those thoughts out of my mind when I'm interacting. I've actually never looked at a woman and thought, "I'm better than her physically."

 

On the other hand, I've never met a woman who didn't think she was too good looking for at least some 'subset' of men. But that probably goes for most men too. Maybe like Enigmatic Clarity, I'm just an enigma.

[xxoo]

Prettiest girl in the room or not worth a damn? What's with the extremes?

 

That's what happens when your self-image is tied to others.

 

I can stand next to a drop dead gorgeous woman and feel good about myself, because I like myself the way I am.

 

It doesn't matter who else is in the room.

[jobaba]

That's what happens when your self-image is tied to others.

 

I can stand next to a drop dead gorgeous woman and feel good about myself, because I like myself the way I am.

 

It doesn't matter who else is in the room.

 

YES!

 

Very good point. Something I definitely need to learn to do better. Been working on that though and I suggest Verz does too...

[Els]

That's what happens when your self-image is tied to others.

 

I can stand next to a drop dead gorgeous woman and feel good about myself, because I like myself the way I am.

 

It doesn't matter who else is in the room.

 

I agree. However, I think there's nothing wrong with admitting that the woman looks better than I do. There are so many aspects and gifts to a person, and appearances are but one of them. Does not mean that she is better than me, or worth more than me.

[xxoo]

I agree. However, I think there's nothing wrong with admitting that the woman looks better than I do. There are so many aspects and gifts to a person, and appearances are but one of them. Does not mean that she is better than me, or worth more than me.

 

Of course!

 

Much of this comes with age, I think. Women who don't "get it" as they age really begin to struggle.

[EnigmaticClarity]

I dunno. I'm a man and I'm pretty realistic in terms of my looks too. I'm conscious of my facial features, build, hair, clothing, and height and race. I'm aware that I'm probably pretty low on the totem pole (lower than 5, average) but I try to keep those thoughts out of my mind when I'm interacting. I've actually never looked at a woman and thought, "I'm better than her physically."

 

Walk around Wal-Mart and just look at people--I don't care if you rate yourself as a 2, you'll find a bunch of men and women you think you outrank.

 

I see men and women every day I'd rate above myself or below myself. None of it really changes my self-esteem much, it just tends to hone my perception of my comparative value. I think I'm a 6, and I base that upon the total package--height, face, body, skin, penis, everything. I get plenty of lingering stares, and I know just from knowing my comparative worth I get plenty of ignores from women who only react to model looks. As compared to the average person, I think I'm a bit above-average. As compared to the above-average people I typically see at bar scenes, I think I'm dead-average, and in some crowds, below-average.

 

I used to think of myself as below-average as a teenager--and I probably was then, I didn't have the style, intelligence, or confidence then I do now, and I filled out in the body with age and after starting sports late around the age of 17. I'm very glad I figured out my actual worth, and if it had turned out to be what I originally though it was, that'd be OK, too. I've seen plenty of below-average people I could be happy with.

[EnigmaticClarity]

I agree. However, I think there's nothing wrong with admitting that the woman looks better than I do. There are so many aspects and gifts to a person, and appearances are but one of them. Does not mean that she is better than me, or worth more than me.

 

I do that all the time with men and women, it's extremely healthy. I think of myself as a connoisseur of the human form, so if you see an outstanding example but are unable to admit it, you're probably lost somewhere between how yourself and others perceive you and the reality of your body. It's a worse place to be, particularly when you're dating.

[EnigmaticClarity]

OK, so I finally saw pics of Verhrzn--she's nowhere in the vicinity of ugly. Cute with a great figure. She also appears to have a ton of interests that are usually guy-oriented, which is quite appealling to tons of guys.

 

I'd date her, and count myself as lucky. I'm not kissing ass here either, she's appealing, hands-down. Not a world-class model, but WELL above average, quite sexy. Sounds like she's just been unlucky with the guys she's met.

[jobaba]

Walk around Wal-Mart and just look at people--I don't care if you rate yourself as a 2, you'll find a bunch of men and women you think you outrank.

 

I see men and women every day I'd rate above myself or below myself. None of it really changes my self-esteem much, it just tends to hone my perception of my comparative value. I think I'm a 6, and I base that upon the total package--height, face, body, skin, penis, everything. I get plenty of lingering stares, and I know just from knowing my comparative worth I get plenty of ignores from women who only react to model looks. As compared to the average person, I think I'm a bit above-average. As compared to the above-average people I typically see at bar scenes, I think I'm dead-average, and in some crowds, below-average.

 

I used to think of myself as below-average as a teenager--and I probably was then, I didn't have the style, intelligence, or confidence then I do now, and I filled out in the body with age and after starting sports late around the age of 17. I'm very glad I figured out my actual worth, and if it had turned out to be what I originally though it was, that'd be OK, too. I've seen plenty of below-average people I could be happy with.

 

It's just the way I am. I could see a little person who has a handicap and wouldn't think I'm better looking than her.

 

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1600&bih=781&tbm=isch&tbnid=XBdvgQOHZfJU4M:&imgrefurl=http://www.sloshspot.com/blog/09-18-2009/Little-People-Big-Accomplishments-13-Huge-Feats-215&docid=KPimYJoEObQsKM&imgurl=http://i38.tinypic.com/x5uuzn.jpg&w=500&h=375&ei=ZgQfT6CLIOLs0gGtrOAG&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1203&vpy=207&dur=2492&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=82&ty=104&sig=106747106848394077863&page=2&tbnh=138&tbnw=184&start=37&ndsp=42&ved=1t:429,r:31,s:37

 

Not to say I don't see women and men and think they're better looking than me. I do. All the time.

 

I like the former quirk of my persona actually, but am trying to change the latter.

[Lonely Ronin]

Good lord. Zen, you seem to have yourself in perspective--why do so many women have the obsessive need to think of themselves as gorgeous or ugly with few degrees in-between, when in reality, the VAST majority of us fall between the extremes? Prettiest girl in the room or not worth a damn? What's with the extremes?

 

It's a self-confidence issue...

 

I made the mistake once, of letting an ex of mine know that I thought a given star was more attractive than her. To be honest I was semi tricked into answering, but god did the aftermath suck..... When our relationship ended, it was directly related to her confidence issues, and they weren't solely related to her physical appearance (and for the record I was the one that got dumped). Never again will I become involved with someone who has obvious self confidence issues.

[FitChick]

One reason I don't date insecure men is because I don't need another job, constantly reassuring them they are more handsome, more successful, more intelligent, the best lover, etc. Someone like that doesn't believe it when you tell them but keeps asking for reassurance. It's emotionally draining. Guess what? Those people wind up driving away people who like them initially because they are too high maintenance. Because they are so determined to prove that they are right and you are wrong. They KNOW they are unlovable, not good enough, not important, etc., and who the hell are you to tell them otherwise?

[zengirl]

Those people wind up driving away people who like them initially because they are too high maintenance. Because they are so determined to prove that they are right and you are wrong. They KNOW they are unlovable, not good enough, not important, etc., and who the hell are you to tell them otherwise?

 

Yes, this is something I see in the OP. Anytime she gets compliments, she immediately brushes them aside. She is SURE that she's ugly, and that's all there is to it. Sad, really, because as Enigmatic says above -- she's not ugly and has many features that'd make her attractive to guys. She's pretty, probably fairly smart (though she once insisted that she was just nerdy but not even smart either), and a very nice person, but she seems ultimately determined to dislike herself and devalue her worth.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Yes, this is something I see in the OP. Anytime she gets compliments, she immediately brushes them aside. She is SURE that she's ugly, and that's all there is to it. Sad, really, because as Enigmatic says above -- she's not ugly and has many features that'd make her attractive to guys. She's pretty, probably fairly smart (though she once insisted that she was just nerdy but not even smart either), and a very nice person, but she seems ultimately determined to dislike herself and devalue her worth.

 

Some of us wake up to the reality that we're not that great--Verhrzn has some real and true beauty to wake up and realize someday. I hope that grand day does come, because she's lucky, and it's tragic that she hasn't seen her own worth already.

 

I sent her some extremely detailed PMs detailing her great beauty and a few of her minor flaws to temper them with the reality of her appearance--I hope she can put it into perspective and realize how attractive she is. She's PARTICULARLY appealing because of her love of nerdy stuff--she'll eventually make some sexy, nerdy guy really, really happy. Being interested in the same stuff she is, if I were single, lived in her area, and around her age, I can say I wish that were me, actually--it's really tough for guys into what she's into to find girls into that same stuff. REALLY tough--she's a diamond in the rough.

[somedude81]

As I said, SD, all I have to base my judgments on is what you tell us. You've not told us of any caring or gentlemanly stuff that you have performed for the girls you liked. Most of it was how you asked her to hang out and attempts at showing romantic interests. Nothing about how you brought her soup when she was sick, or stayed up late into the night to help her with her project, or fixed her car for her, or anything of the sort.

 

Granted, you may have done all of those and I just don't know that you did. Also, granted, if you had mentioned that you did, you would have gotten flak from the PUA's on this forum about how you're 'being a doormat'. It's tough being in that situation, I agree. Also, for what it's worth, even with what little I know, I agree that you're better in all those aspects than the player sorts.

As if any of that stuff would make her like me.

 

Those are things that a good boyfriend would do. Not something that two people who were not dating or not very good friends would do. Frankly, even if I tried, she wouldn't have let me do things like that. Heck, she wouldn't even let me buy her ice-cream. But if we were dating, or had something like that going on, damn right I would have done them.

 

 

Ummm.. how do I put this nicely. You mentioned that you would try to persuade a girlfriend with small breasts to undergo breast enhancement surgery.

.... Seriously, Somedude?? You actually said this, and then try to say that you have no standards, that what you want is a completely normal girl?

 

 

That is absolutely awful.

Heh, the posts I made in that thread.

 

The basic context was, if I was in a serious relationship with a woman who was an A-cup or smaller, I would talk to her about getting implants.

 

Realistically though, the odds of me even being in that situation are extremely low.

 

 

 

You also mentioned that the only reason you don't try for '9s and 10s' is because you think they will reject you. To me, that is incredibly superficial.

How is that superficial?

 

I hope you understand that it is not the same thing if I said that I only go for 6+ because I think the '9s and 10s' would reject me.

 

Compared to my ideal woman, the girl I always posted about was a 6.5 maybe a 7 and I was absolutely crazy about her, I still think about her all the damn time

 

 

When I met my guy, SD, I had a few pair of pants and a few tees that I alternated on a weekly basis. I had my hair up in a ponytail all the time, and wore no makeup. Conversely, there was one girl whom we both know wanted him, and she looked like a model. Sleek waist-length shiny hair that looked perfect, makeup, dresses, slimmer than me, the whole deal. He ignored her and continued to pursue me. Yes, that isn't a guarantee that he isn't superficial. Hey, maybe the tomboy look turns him on. Who knows. But I think it's a pretty damn good indicator.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

 

So those girls you tried to show me to demonstrate that you don't go for 'the hot girl'.... were really just you trying for what you can get, not what you're actually attracted to.

Not true in the slightest.

 

I showed you two girls. One was with me, D, and the other was the half-naked blonde girl. I consider the blonde girl to be much more attractive than the other. But if I was actually given a choice to date either one. I'd pick D without a second thought.

Yes, this is something I see in the OP. Anytime she gets compliments, she immediately brushes them aside. She is SURE that she's ugly, and that's all there is to it. Sad, really, because as Enigmatic says above -- she's not ugly and has many features that'd make her attractive to guys. She's pretty, probably fairly smart (though she once insisted that she was just nerdy but not even smart either), and a very nice person, but she seems ultimately determined to dislike herself and devalue her worth.

I'd also like to point out that half the men on this forum have already said they'd date her.

 

Of course she just ignores it. Still, it is just a bunch of internet dudes. I'm sure the comments would mean more from men she really knows.

[KathyM]

I think the problem is, plain and simple, that the OP is finding that men do value appearance above all else (and a lot of men do, let's not deny the obvious), and she doesn't like the fact that women who are more attractive are getting these guys, and that these guys value attractiveness above all else. I'm sure that's frustrating. And I do think she's right in that those men who value other things than just looks equally much are taken up pretty quickly. I've seen that IRL. But rather than denying the reality, like some people seem to want to do on here, maybe suggestions for how to combat this so called disadvantage would be helpful. I think if she sets her expectations on men realistically, doesn't go for the hot player types, works on building a strong connection with the men she dates using her assets she does have which are her strongest--personality, intelligence, fun, she could win a guy over to the point that he wouldn't leave her the minute some pretty face shows an interest. I know three couples, just off the top of my head, where a good looking guy fell in love with a girl who was average in appearance, not a slim girl, kind of on the chubby side, but they fell in love with her personality, her character, her inner beauty, her humor, her intelligence. Two of these guys married such women, and the third one was in a two year loving relationship with her, and she ended up leaving him. So I think the OP would be wise to stop obsessing about how other women may be more attractive (fact of life), or that men are attracted to hot/beautiful women (another fact of life), and start using her strengths to her best advantage, and not obsess about something she can't change (i.e., that men are attracted to beautiful women, or that some women will be more attractive than her). There are nice guys out there that do value other things. Just make the most of what your strengths are, and seek out venues where you're more likely to meet guys with more substance.

[jobaba]

As if any of that stuff would make her like me.

 

Those are things that a good boyfriend would do. Not something that two people who were not dating or not very good friends would do. Frankly, even if I tried, she wouldn't have let me do things like that. Heck, she wouldn't even let me buy her ice-cream. But if we were dating, or had something like that going on, damn right I would have done them.

 

Yes. One of the great ironies of life, SD.

 

Being a good man and doing things for women will generally not increase your value whatsoever in the eyes of the vast majority of women when it comes to romance.

 

Realize and move on...

[zengirl]

 

Heh, the posts I made in that thread.

 

The basic context was, if I was in a serious relationship with a woman who was an A-cup or smaller, I would talk to her about getting implants.

 

Realistically though, the odds of me even being in that situation are extremely low.

 

Seriously? That is some EXTREME superficiality. I know you're in So Cal and all, but that's hardcore. Geez. Anywho, back to the subject at hand. . .

 

I think the problem is, plain and simple, that the OP is finding that men do value appearance above all else (and a lot of men do, let's not deny the obvious), and she doesn't like the fact that women who are more attractive are getting these guys, and that these guys value attractiveness above all else. I'm sure that's frustrating. And I do think she's right in that those men who value other things than just looks equally much are taken up pretty quickly. I've seen that IRL. But rather than denying the reality, like some people seem to want to do on here, maybe suggestions for how to combat this so called disadvantage would be helpful. I think if she sets her expectations on men realistically, doesn't go for the hot player types, works on building a strong connection with the men she dates using her assets she does have which are her strongest--personality, intelligence, fun, she could win a guy over to the point that he wouldn't leave her the minute some pretty face shows an interest.

 

The problem with this is that the OP is quite pretty. I mean, she's not a movie star, but she's above average in prettiness, young, good body, etc. If she had more confidence and BELIEVED she was pretty, her looks would not be any kind of boon to her, unless she was trying to make a modeling career or something.

 

Yes, men like pretty girls. Plenty of men would think the OP was pretty! (Men on LS have said this since she joined!)

 

I mean, she may be losing a guy out here or there to a slightly more attractive girl, but in an average setting, she's well above the curve. I seriously doubt her looks are truly the problem. Sure, it's not good to always go after the SINGLE most desirable guy, especially if that doesn't seem to be panning out, but I don't think that's really her issue either.

 

As to men valuing attractiveness above all else---I do not believe that is the case, in terms of they want the most attractive girl at the detriment of other factors. They DO require a woman who is attractive to them, but many men would rather date a slightly less attractive girl who's also kind, smart, and compatible than a super attractive girl who's all wrong for them. Some would go for the hottest they could get, regardless of other factors, sure, but those are outliers, not the norm.

[KathyM]

Seriously? That is some EXTREME superficiality. I know you're in So Cal and all, but that's hardcore. Geez. Anywho, back to the subject at hand. . .

 

 

 

The problem with this is that the OP is quite pretty. I mean, she's not a movie star, but she's above average in prettiness, young, good body, etc. If she had more confidence and BELIEVED she was pretty, her looks would not be any kind of boon to her, unless she was trying to make a modeling career or something.

 

Yes, men like pretty girls. Plenty of men would think the OP was pretty! (Men on LS have said this since she joined!)

 

I mean, she may be losing a guy out here or there to a slightly more attractive girl, but in an average setting, she's well above the curve. I seriously doubt her looks are truly the problem. Sure, it's not good to always go after the SINGLE most desirable guy, especially if that doesn't seem to be panning out, but I don't think that's really her issue either.

 

As to men valuing attractiveness above all else---I do not believe that is the case, in terms of they want the most attractive girl at the detriment of other factors. They DO require a woman who is attractive to them, but many men would rather date a slightly less attractive girl who's also kind, smart, and compatible than a super attractive girl who's all wrong for them. Some would go for the hottest they could get, regardless of other factors, sure, but those are outliers, not the norm.

I think if there is a big difference in attractiveness, most men would go for the more attractive one, unless the more attractive one had the personality of an ogre. I do think personality, intelligence, humor, etc., can make up for any discrepancy in appearance, if it's not a large discrepancy, and certainly the OP is attractive enough to make up for this using her personality and other strengths. I think expecting men to think you are more attractive than all other women based on looks alone is an unrealistic expectation, and the OP would be wise to discard that and use her strengths to her advantage instead. Some men will think she's plenty attractive enough, but there will always be women who are more attractive, and there will always be men who are drawn to that. She just has to seek out those types that value a wide variety of things and use her best assets to her advantage, and show off those best assets to men who will appreciate them. So far, the men she has been with have been pretty shallow.