Ross MwcFan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I would really really love to know what league I'm in. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I would really really love to know what league I'm in. It's a matter of knowing what qualities women frequently place value on in a man, and then evaluating which of those qualities are strengths or weaknesses for you. You've already got a decent sense of that, we all do--but the better you become familiar with your strengths and weaknesses, the better you can target women who share similar strengths and weaknesses and are likely to be compatible with you. I've got a really keen sense of how I match up to women I go out with. Sometimes it takes a few dates to determine how even we are. Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I understand that most women think it's a horrible idea for a man to suggest any physical change about a woman and therefore, it would simply be best if I avoided a relationship with women that I feel would need changing. Good idea. Do you plan on being forthright with your partner about your physical requirements for attraction? I'm curious because, when I was dating my H, I wanted to know his views on body changes with pregnancy, age, disease (I have a family history of breast cancer), etc. I also paid close attention to his views of the women around us--various sizes and ages. If it seemed like he was ONLY attracted to thin women with full breasts (I fit that description at the time--after kids I am a thin woman with smaller breasts...that can happen, you know!), I would not have wanted to be with him. Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 It's a matter of knowing what qualities women frequently place value on in a man, and then evaluating which of those qualities are strengths or weaknesses for you. You've already got a decent sense of that, we all do--but the better you become familiar with your strengths and weaknesses, the better you can target women who share similar strengths and weaknesses and are likely to be compatible with you. I was thinking more in terms of looks. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I was thinking more in terms of looks. We could give you an opinion, but we'd need more pics--particularly ones showing your entire body--along with your height and weight. Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I was thinking more in terms of looks. Ross, do you think your looks are holding you back? I really don't think so. I think your confidence is holding you back. What do YOU think about the way you look? Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Ross, do you think your looks are holding you back? I really don't think so. I think your confidence is holding you back. What do YOU think about the way you look? Anyone who isn't a 9 or a 10 is held back to varying degrees. It isn't just a matter of confidence--it's a matter of knowing your comparative worth. Knowing your comparative worth can affect your confidence too, but it doesn't have to once you're willing to accept the hand you're dealt, enjoy the wonders this world has to offer completely separate from relationships, and build your confidence on personality traits separate from appearance. Once your self-esteem isn't linked to your appearance, that's truly when knowing your comparative worth becomes of enhanced value. Just from his head shots I suspect Ross isn't below-average, yet I'm also guessing he often wonders whether or not he is indeed below-average when he's seeing no interest from women. Knowing how he stacks up against other people in terms of attractiveness I suspect would boost his confidence--I suspect he's better-looking than he sometimes thinks he is. Can't tell for sure though. I'm guessing based upon his head shots he's somewhere from a 5 to a 7, but the body makes a difference. Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Ross, do you think your looks are holding you back? I really don't think so. I think your confidence is holding you back. What do YOU think about the way you look? I'm not sure. I mean, I think I look good on some of my pics, but on others I look bad. Sometimes in the mirror I think I look good, but other times I think I look bad. Some people IRL have said that I'm nice looking, and others have said that I'm really ugly. So, I have honestly got no idea about how attractive or unattractive I am. For all I know, I could be anything from very ugly, to very attractive. Link to post Share on other sites
Author verhrzn Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 I think quietGuy13 and verhrzn are made for each other. So.... I graduated with a pretty decent GPA from a good college, have a well-paying job and a long history of solid employment, am financially independent, have minimum debt (only college loans), live alone, have interesting hobbies, and exercise regularly. My flaws are being bitter and somewhat cynical. But because I'm not physically attractive enough, somehow I belong in the league of someone who can't hold down a job, is uneducated, lives with his parents, demands that he have the hottest girl in the room, and gives off the impression that he'd enjoy turning people into lampshades. So his flaws include bitterness, unrealistic expectations, emotionally and intellectually immature, fiscal irresponsibility, and a lack of physical attractiveness (because he doesn't even try to exercise.) If that doesn't prove that the physical requirements of women trump all other characteristics I don't know what does. Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 We already know Ross isn't trying to get "hot" women. His looks aren't holding him back from attracting the truly average kind of girl he finds attractive. His confidence is. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'm not sure. I mean, I think I look good on some of my pics, but on others I look bad. Sometimes in the mirror I think I look good, but other times I think I look bad. One odd truth of attractiveness is that most people look better at different angles. Which angles look best for you is a function of your skeletal structure, musculature, and skin, as well as your weight and how you carry it. Your new avatar is better than your old because it captures your head at a straight-on angle that wasn't showing a fold of flesh beneath your chin that made you look pudgier than you appear to be in the other shots. One remarkable thing about people with extreme beauty is that they tend to look good from almost ANY angle. Supermodels are almost always like that. Most actors and actresses tend to have bad angles, but the most attractive ones don't. I know Salma Hayek and Catherine Zeta-Jones seem to have NO bad angles, which is an extremely rare and amazing quality. Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 So.... I graduated with a pretty decent GPA from a good college, have a well-paying job and a long history of solid employment, am financially independent, have minimum debt (only college loans), live alone, have interesting hobbies, and exercise regularly. My flaws are being bitter and somewhat cynical. But because I'm not physically attractive enough, somehow I belong in the league of someone who can't hold down a job, is uneducated, lives with his parents, demands that he have the hottest girl in the room, and gives off the impression that he'd enjoy turning people into lampshades. So his flaws include bitterness, unrealistic expectations, emotionally and intellectually immature, fiscal irresponsibility, and a lack of physical attractiveness (because he doesn't even try to exercise.) If that doesn't prove that the physical requirements of women trump all other characteristics I don't know what does. You really need to stop taking the trollish responses of one or two ill-reputed posters as 'proof' of anything, V. Link to post Share on other sites
Els Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I would really really love to know what league I'm in. I don't really know or care about 'leagues', Ross, but if it makes you feel better, I'd personally prefer you over a large number of men around here. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 We already know Ross isn't trying to get "hot" women. His looks aren't holding him back from attracting the truly average kind of girl he finds attractive. His confidence is. If he figures out how he stacks up and realizes he looks average--or even above-average--in his case, I think it could boost his confidence if it turns out he compares better than he thinks he does. Either way, it's better to have a sense of your comparative value. Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I don't really know or care about 'leagues', Ross, but if it makes you feel better, I'd personally prefer you over a large number of men around here. Aw, thanks Elswyth. Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'm not sure. I mean, I think I look good on some of my pics, but on others I look bad. Sometimes in the mirror I think I look good, but other times I think I look bad. Some people IRL have said that I'm nice looking, and others have said that I'm really ugly. So, I have honestly got no idea about how attractive or unattractive I am. For all I know, I could be anything from very ugly, to very attractive. You really need to stop asking people about your looks. It isn't a healthy focus. What makes you think you look good sometimes, and bad other times? Is it your mood/emotional state? Is it clothing, or a something physical about you? I like how I look. Still, sometimes I glance in the mirror and think "Yikes!" It could be the lighting, or a bad clothing fit, or maybe I need to wash my hair, or maybe I have a blemish or dark circles. But none of that changes the fact that basically I like the way I look. I see: I need to change clothes, I need to take a shower, I need some sleep. I don't jump to: I'm ugly. Also, everyone takes bad photos sometimes! You need a stronger foundation. Your self image needs to be solid, so that does not crumble with a bad day, or an insensitive comment. You might feel a hit sometimes, but you will recover quickly. Link to post Share on other sites
Author verhrzn Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 You really need to stop taking the trollish responses of one or two ill-reputed posters as 'proof' of anything, V. Is Fitchick ill-reputed? Hmm, did not realize. Link to post Share on other sites
kiss_andmakeup Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 I would really really love to know what league I'm in. Ross, I looked at your pictures and I think you look like the textbook definition of an average guy (whatever that means on the "1-10" scale...5?). You're not ugly at all. I can't see your body in the photos, so if you're in decent shape, that's a plus. That said, another woman may look at your photos and consider you above average. Yet another woman may consider you ugly. Who knows? It's so subjective. Anyone other than the "universally attractive" "10" model-looking folks are subject to a wide array of differing opinions (and even those "10s" aren't going to be super attractive to everyone).] And as others have pointed out, photos aren't anything. Personally I always hate the way I look in photos. Link to post Share on other sites
zengirl Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 So.... I graduated with a pretty decent GPA from a good college, have a well-paying job and a long history of solid employment, am financially independent, have minimum debt (only college loans), live alone, have interesting hobbies, and exercise regularly. My flaws are being bitter and somewhat cynical. But because I'm not physically attractive enough, somehow I belong in the league of someone who can't hold down a job, is uneducated, lives with his parents, demands that he have the hottest girl in the room, and gives off the impression that he'd enjoy turning people into lampshades. So his flaws include bitterness, unrealistic expectations, emotionally and intellectually immature, fiscal irresponsibility, and a lack of physical attractiveness (because he doesn't even try to exercise.) If that doesn't prove that the physical requirements of women trump all other characteristics I don't know what does. I don't think FitChick's comment had anything to do with how attractive you are. She's said above that you need to get a handle on this and call someone to deal with your body image issues, which implies she believes your level of attractiveness is not the problem. I think it had to do with the extreme degree of self-loathing you seem to indulge in. Frankly, no decent man will be in your league until you let that self-loathing go. So, you might as well be in the league of a guy who matches the description you gave---that's what you're putting out to the universe that you deserve because you cannot look at yourself and like what you see. At any rate, yes: social outcomes, such as relationships, have very little to do with your GPA or the amount of money you make (the latter may matter for men, if it's very high or for men or women if it's nothing or very low) compared to physical qualities and also many other skills that directly correlate to dating. Acing your college classes has NO correlation to dating. For me or women, really. Financial independence has a decent correlation to overall social success, but it does not guarantee it; it's just that if your finances are a huge mess it will probably drain your energy or resources to where socializing is impeded. Link to post Share on other sites
Author verhrzn Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 I would really really love to know what league I'm in. Dan Savage put it best in his podcast this week: Women are sexual objects, men are success objects. In other words, you seem fixated on your looks, but a man's success with women (and thus his 'league') have a lot more to do with his outward confidence and success. Success in this case does not necessarily mean fancy cars or lots of money.... but things like a solid job/career, interesting hobbies, and an overall "style" of the guy. In your opinion, what do you bring to the table? Exclude discussion of looks at all-talk only about career, personality, etc. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 You really need to stop asking people about your looks. It isn't a healthy focus. That's conditionally true--it's true if he's insecure. I can't tell right now whether he is or not. When he was making those "I'm going to overdose" comments in the other thread after FitChick said his avatar looked like crap, was he completely kidding, or was he significantly shaken and trying to brush it off? If he was shaken, I agree with you...if he was fine and that was his sense of humor, it's not an unhealthy focus. He may be secure and trying to get a feel for his comparative worth. THAT would be healthy. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Is Fitchick ill-reputed? Hmm, did not realize. I think she's pretty smart, but I greatly disagree with her comment. I could be biased because you looked better than I thought you would based upon the way you usually beat yourself up. She's read more of your posts than I have, though, so maybe she thinks you share more personality quirks with him than I'm able to judge. Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Dan Savage put it best in his podcast this week: Women are sexual objects, men are success objects. In other words, you seem fixated on your looks, but a man's success with women (and thus his 'league') have a lot more to do with his outward confidence and success. Success in this case does not necessarily mean fancy cars or lots of money.... but things like a solid job/career, interesting hobbies, and an overall "style" of the guy. In your opinion, what do you bring to the table? Exclude discussion of looks at all-talk only about career, personality, etc. I'm intelligent and I'm caring, that's all I can think of. Link to post Share on other sites
Author verhrzn Posted January 25, 2012 Author Share Posted January 25, 2012 I'm intelligent and I'm caring, that's all I can think of. Are you unemployed? Under-employed? Do you like your work? Do you have hobbies? Are you passionate about anything? Do you take care of yourself? Are you financially responsible? What do you do in your spare time? Link to post Share on other sites
Ross MwcFan Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Are you unemployed? Under-employed? Do you like your work? Do you have hobbies? Are you passionate about anything? Do you take care of yourself? Are you financially responsible? What do you do in your spare time? I'm unemployed. I'm not sure if I'm passionate about anything. By taking care of myself do you mean keeping in shape? Not really, I used to lift weights, but I've not been able to do that for a while because I don't have a weights bench at the moment. I do have quite a bit of weight around my mid section, but I don't really feel like exercising (apart from lifting wieghts) I'd say I'm financially responsible. My hobbies/what I do in my spare time are, talking to someone who is close to me online, going on the Internet, playing video games, watching DVD's, solving Rubik's style puzzles, and drawing. Edited January 25, 2012 by Ross MwcFan Link to post Share on other sites
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