What Are Realistic Expectations In Dating?

[Els]

Ross, I think you'll find quite a bit more success when you start college, and even more when you start work.

 

Dan Savage put it best in his podcast this week: Women are sexual objects, men are success objects.

 

 

That is quite a sad way of looking at things. If you are a woman, and you believe this, wouldn't that dim your drive for success? Some men like successful and/or intelligent women, IMO.

[kiss_andmakeup]

I'm unemployed. I'm not sure if I'm passionate about anything. By taking care of myself do you mean keeping in shape? Not really, I used to lift weights, but I've not been able to do that for a while because I don't have a weights bench at the moment. I do have quite a bit of weight around my mid section, but I don't really feel like exercising (apart from lifting wieghts)

 

I'd say I'm financially responsible.

 

My hobbies/what I do in my spare time are, talking to someone who is close to me online, going on the Internet, playing video games, watching DVD's, solving Rubik's style puzzles, and drawing.

 

Being unemployed, what's stopping you from exercising? I'm guessing you have a lot of time on your hands. You'd be amazed at how much better you'd feel in general if you started a workout routine. I've always been thin, but when I'm working out regularly, I have more energy, more motivation, I sleep better, I eat better...I just feel better in general.

 

Get educated, get a job, find a passion. Something. Anything.

 

It sounds like the things you outlined are likely your biggest problem in dating (rather than your looks). That's actually great news for you, because they're all things you can change! Get educated, get a job, get in shape, find a passion, find some zest for life. People pick up on these things, and in many cases it actually has little to do with money. Everyone wants a partner who is happy, healthy, motivated, and has a joy or passion for something in their life.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Dan Savage put it best in his podcast this week: Women are sexual objects, men are success objects.

 

Just to give the fabulous Dan's quote its proper context, his point was that physical beauty in, like wealth, can be very attractive, and that this initial attraction based on "superficial" qualities CAN grow into real love.

 

OP has had dates and boyfriends; regardless of what she says, she has reeled 'em in. The fail comes later.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Get educated, get a job, find a passion. Something. Anything.

 

It sounds like the things you outlined are likely your biggest problem in dating (rather than your looks). That's actually great news for you, because they're all things you can change! Get educated, get a job, get in shape, find a passion, find some zest for life. People pick up on these things, and in many cases it actually has little to do with money. Everyone wants a partner who is happy, healthy, motivated, and has a joy or passion for something in their life.

 

Agreed--most women would find him vanilla and boring. Some would be drawn to that if they're that way themselves, but it's tougher to get a spark going if you're both that way.

 

I'm fairly passionate about a number of things, but even if I wasn't, a connection with a woman itself is something I easily get passionate about. I'm highly libido-driven and crave affection, love, and sex, so I'm greatly passionate about talking with women. Sometimes that comes out more awkwardly than others on dates, depending upon the woman and my mood. Without passion for women, there'd be little or no spark on dates, and without sparks, romance usually doesn't happen.

[FitChick]

Uh... no. If we absolutely must talk in such horrific terms, quietguy13 is as much out of verh's 'league' as verh is out of Brad Pitt's.

 

You don't think they'd enjoy talking about how other people hate them, find them repulsive, how society discriminates against them and how they will never be happy? I wonder who would dump the other first.

[FitChick]

Ross, do you think your looks are holding you back?

I really don't think so. I think your confidence is holding you back.

Hmmm, interesting point. Now I think Ross and verhrzn would be a perfect match. So much in common, don't you think?

[FitChick]

Is Fitchick ill-reputed? Hmm, did not realize.

 

Neither did I! I'd like to thank the Academy for this honor...

[verhrzn]

Hmmm, interesting point. Now I think Ross and verhrzn would be a perfect match. So much in common, don't you think?

 

Again... apparently nothing else matters for women except physical attractiveness in your opinion. Which just confirms that I've been arguing, that a woman can be fantastic but still be judged un-dateable due to her looks.

[FitChick]

Agreed--most women would find him vanilla and boring.

 

Now you've gone and hurt his feelings! What is vanilla and boring to some is loving and reliable to others. I suspect if Ross ever got a girlfriend, he would be very good to her and most emotionally healthy women would appreciate those qualities. Like certain people on this forum, he is his own worst enemy, sadly.

[KathyM]

Depends on the gap in difference, sure. But I think women (at least women in my generation) would feel the same with a large difference in attractiveness as well. I know I wouldn't date someone who was unattractive to me simply because we had a lot in common. Seems like a recipe for disaster.

 

Also, "attractiveness" is always to some degree a relative term, unless we're talking the most beautiful or least beautiful people. Particularly in America. I have lived in countries, as mentioned above, like Korea and Japan where you can basically define "beauty." They prefer very specific features and have very similar looks overall --- they're much more homogeneous racially and appearance wise. I think it's much harder to do so in the U.S. For instance, I consider myself beautiful and have had no trouble finding experiences that reinforce that, but in looking at the laundry list the OP has posted elsewhere, except for being thin and in shape, I'm not sure I have many of them. And, to men who prefer tanned, long-legged California blondes or sexy, curvy Latinas, I'm probably not as pretty as I am to the men who dig girls who look like me (I'm a slim, fresh-faced half-Japanese gal).

 

 

 

I don't deny there are "comparers" who seek the prettiest woman (or hottest/richest man or whatever) they can get; what I deny is that the average man does this. It's not most guys---it's a subset of men (and women) who are not dateable for any number of reasons, include their attitude towards this.

I would agree that there are "comparers" who seek the prettiest woman they can get. I think for people looking for a relationship, most people seek out someone who they feel compatible with in terms of appearance, personality, intelligence, etc., but of those they feel compatible with, they'll select the one who is the more attractive in that group. That was played out in Verzyn's experiences. These guys she was dating were drawn to her because they felt compatible, with shared interests, similarly intelligent, etc., but when a woman who was more attractive and who also was compatible in those other traits came along, those guys sought out those women. I think that's a prime example of this theory--that men do value attractiveness, and are interested in pursuing that feature in a relationship, even though that is not the only thing they are interested in--even though they may value personality, intelligence, etc., as well.

 

 

 

Sounds like it. And I'm sure the OP is attracting them because of her own attitude about herself.

I actually take that back about that these guys are shallow. If they are valuing women for other qualities also--intelligence, personality, etc., and appearance is only one of the qualities they value, then that wouldn't constitute shallowness. I define shallowness to mean that appearance is the only thing a person cares about. If they dumped Verzyn for a woman who only had her appearance going for her, then that would be shallow.

 

 

 

IME, men don't analyze relationships this way unless they are either REALLY unsuccessful at dating or looking for outs. Men who are looking for real relationships are poor analysts of love, really. Women do that stuff. Men. . . they want to be hit over the head with it, they're much more romantic than given credit for in most cases (the ones who really are BF material), and they don't sit around comparing women to scoresheets. Not when they actually dig a woman. Men fall in love much more quickly than women in many cases.

I think you give men a little too much credit in this regard. I think men are very visual creatures, and they do assess a woman's appearance and have this little scorecard going on in their head. If they think there's something better that comes along, there's a good chance they could go for it. Unless he has developed a strong love or attachment for a woman, then he is more likely to stay. That is why I was suggesting to Verzyn that she needs to work on building that connection early on with her other strengths (personality, etc.) so that men will develop those strong feelings for her and not be so likely to be led away when someone better looking comes along. She's not building the emotional connection with these guys that would prevent them from seeking out those more attractive women when they come along. So maybe we should figure out why that is--that she's not building an emotional connection with these guys, if we want to try to help her to figure out what she could do to turn around this pattern that she is experiencing with men.

 

I will say I think men are slightly more DRAWN to beauty (whatever there idea of beauty is) and certainly they are less able to FORCE themselves into a relationship with someone they're not instinctively drawn towards than many women will do, based on their analysis. Usually if a man sits down to analyze these things, it means he's not in love with the woman and is finding the door. When a man has a true connection to a woman, the last thing he wants to do is analyze it! YMMV.

I would agree with that, that once they love a woman, they aren't analyzing this stuff as much, and they turn off that mental calculator in their brain.

[zengirl]

I would agree that there are "comparers" who seek the prettiest woman they can get. I think for people looking for a relationship, most people seek out someone who they feel compatible with in terms of appearance, personality, intelligence, etc., but of those they feel compatible with, they'll select the one who is the more attractive in that group. That was played out in Verzyn's experiences. These guys she was dating were drawn to her because they felt compatible, with shared interests, similarly intelligent, etc., but when a woman who was more attractive and who also was compatible in those other traits came along, those guys sought out those women.

 

Except the OP is a terrible example because she also lacks self-esteem, self-confidence, and self-peace, which are crucial to maintaining a good relationship. I really don't know HOW these played out or whether the physical attractiveness was the primary factor. OP is quite a pretty girl, in fact.

 

I think you give men a little too much credit in this regard. I think men are very visual creatures, and they do assess a woman's appearance and have this little scorecard going on in their head.

 

Men may do this recreationally, but IME they don't see women this way if they actually dig the woman. It also depends on the type of guy. Most relationship-oriented men who both want and SUCCEED at relationships (I know a few over-analyzers who SAY they want a relationship but nitpick everything to death so it doesn't happen) don't do this is my point. It's very much how men get OUT of the mode of being serious about relationships and create doubt and reasons to be single, IMO.

 

As for "too much credit," I don't think it's about credit or not. There's really nothing wrong with seeking a physically attractive mate. Everyone does it. I just don't think the men I know who are relationship-oriented value looks they way you and the OP described. Can they label women as numbers? Sure, if it comes up. They'll find it much harder to analyze a woman they're falling for.

 

If they think there's something better that comes along, there's a good chance they could go for it. Unless he has developed a strong love or attachment for a woman, then he is more likely to stay.

 

I think that men, in general, are not likely to stay in a relationship without strong love or attachment, whether it's for something better or just to be single and alone. Not all men, but men are certainly more likely to leave than women if they aren't feeling that attachment. That was where I stated they are more romantic than people think---studies also suggest men fall in love much FASTER than women and analyze it less as they fall in love!

 

That is why I was suggesting to Verzyn that she needs to work on building that connection early on with her other strengths (personality, etc.) so that men will develop those strong feelings for her and not be so likely to be led away when someone better looking comes along. She's not building the emotional connection with these guys that would prevent them from seeking out those more attractive women when they come along.

 

Sure. Not to be blunt, but: Who would love her? She doesn't love herself.

[somedude81]

Even if my hubby were to tell me to wear more makeup or cut my hair a specific way, I'd be offended.

 

But attempting to change another person's appearance is just kinda gross.)

Really?

 

If I was dating a girl and she wanted me to try something different with my appearance, I'd do it as long as it wasn't extreme. Shaving my head, growing a beard, loosing some weight, why not?

Good idea.

 

Do you plan on being forthright with your partner about your physical requirements for attraction?

Why would I have to?

 

Odds are I'd be in a relationship with somebody who already meets my requirements.

 

I'm curious because, when I was dating my H, I wanted to know his views on body changes with pregnancy, age, disease (I have a family history of breast cancer), etc. I also paid close attention to his views of the women around us--various sizes and ages. If it seemed like he was ONLY attracted to thin women with full breasts (I fit that description at the time--after kids I am a thin woman with smaller breasts...that can happen, you know!), I would not have wanted to be with him.

So you were paying attention to see if your man was attracted to women who were not your body type?

 

This is just getting silly.

 

No I'm not attracted to every single body type that women can possibly possess.

 

Yeah I know that most women gain weight after pregnancy. As long as we can work on loosing it within a reasonable amount of time, then there is no issue.

Dan Savage put it best in his podcast this week: Women are sexual objects, men are success objects.

 

In other words, you seem fixated on your looks, but a man's success with women (and thus his 'league') have a lot more to do with his outward confidence and success. Success in this case does not necessarily mean fancy cars or lots of money.... but things like a solid job/career, interesting hobbies, and an overall "style" of the guy.

 

In your opinion, what do you bring to the table? Exclude discussion of looks at all-talk only about career, personality, etc.

That's an interesting observation. Though I would add that a man's looks are not irrelevant.

That is quite a sad way of looking at things. If you are a woman, and you believe this, wouldn't that dim your drive for success? Some men like successful and/or intelligent women, IMO.

Intelligent women sure, women who doing something, yes.

 

Successful? Doesn't matter. As long as I get into a good career, I don't care how much money my future wife makes. All that matters is that she'd be happy and doing something productive.

 

Sure. Not to be blunt, but: Who would love her? She doesn't love herself.

That's a really odd thought.

 

I would see no issue in loving a girl who has low self-esteem. The only problem might be if she needs constant reassurance, forever.

[Anela]

Really?

 

If I was dating a girl and she wanted me to try something different with my appearance, I'd do it as long as it wasn't extreme. Shaving my head, growing a beard, loosing some weight, why not?

 

Surgery is extreme. (You were referring in previous posts, to potentially asking a girl to get a boob job, if her breasts were small, correct? Is that what you're talking about here?)

 

Yeah I know that most women gain weight after pregnancy. As long as we can work on loosing it within a reasonable amount of time, then there is no issue.

What would you consider to be a reasonable amount of time? the prime concern after a woman has a baby, would be the health of both. It's a lot of work. The focus shouldn't be on losing that weight as fast as possible (which seems to be the case a lot of the time).

[EnigmaticClarity]

What would you consider to be a reasonable amount of time? the prime concern after a woman has a baby, would be the health of both. It's a lot of work. The focus shouldn't be on losing that weight as fast as possible (which seems to be the case a lot of the time).

 

Not a fair question to ask someone who hasn't had a kid. He said "reasonable," and that's a reasonable response. I'm going to give you an unreasonable answer since we don't have experience with the situation--a few weeks. Here's the part where you're supposed to howl out how unreasonable that is.

[xxoo]

So you were paying attention to see if your man was attracted to women who were not your body type?

 

This is just getting silly.

 

No I'm not attracted to every single body type that women can possibly possess.

 

Yeah I know that most women gain weight after pregnancy. As long as we can work on loosing it within a reasonable amount of time, then there is no issue.

 

Not every body type. Just types that I could see happening to me.

 

What about when the post baby weight loss also means a post baby BOOB weight loss? On thin women, they often end up smaller than before pregnancy!

 

but, yes, I wanted to know that he appreciated a wide range of beauty--because I was surely not going to stay the same forever!

[somedude81]

Surgery is extreme. (You were referring in previous posts, to potentially asking a girl to get a boob job, if her breasts were small, correct? Is that what you're talking about here?)

No, I'm done talking about the boob job stuff. Read Zengirls post which I quoted to see what I'm talking about.

 

What would you consider to be a reasonable amount of time?

I have no idea. I'd need to talk to women in my family who've had kids, do research and maybe talk to my wife but I don't want to sound insensitive.

 

the prime concern after a woman has a baby, would be the health of both. It's a lot of work. The focus shouldn't be on losing that weight as fast as possible (which seems to be the case a lot of the time).

I agree with you.

[EnigmaticClarity]

What about when the post baby weight loss also means a post baby BOOB weight loss? On thin women, they often end up smaller than before pregnancy!

 

I've never heard this before...curse you, nature.

 

How often does this happen? I had heard of them remaining larger, never heard of them getting smaller. WHAT A GYP!

[verhrzn]

Sure. Not to be blunt, but: Who would love her? She doesn't love herself.

 

I don't think that's the right way to put it. I like myself, personality wise, and in isolation I think I look decent. I don't love my looks in relation to other people. My looks are the big thing I don't love about myself, and I don't love them because I've gotten constant negative feedback about them.

 

But that doesn't mean I hate, or even dislike, myself. Just my looks. And I focus on my looks because I see looks as being a big component of romantic relationships. I don't blame my looks for my difficulty with making friends, for example. (That probably has more to do with me not being 'fun' in the traditional sense and having an over-analytical/intellectual/argumentative mind. Most people find intellectual debates and topics boring and tedious.)

[somedude81]

Not every body type. Just types that I could see happening to me.

 

What about when the post baby weight loss also means a post baby BOOB weight loss? On thin women, they often end up smaller than before pregnancy!

 

but, yes, I wanted to know that he appreciated a wide range of beauty--because I was surely not going to stay the same forever!

I thought breasts most often ended up bigger after having a baby.

[zengirl]

Really?

 

If I was dating a girl and she wanted me to try something different with my appearance, I'd do it as long as it wasn't extreme. Shaving my head, growing a beard, loosing some weight, why not?

 

"Try something out" is one thing. (Losing weight is not "trying something out" nor is surgery.) I mean, if my hubby said, "Have you ever tried green eyeshadow?" I'd first do a spit take and ask him what he said and then answer his question. And I wouldn't mind putting on some easily removable eye makeup so he could see what it looked like, but if it wasn't my cuppa I wouldn't wear it and if he wouldn't stay with me if I didn't wear it or brought it up again, I'd be miffed.

 

My hubby and I both consult each other on clothing buys sometimes and such --- he consults me more, as men do. And I wouldn't chop all of my hair off without at least a head's up. But for the most part, I expect him to love me basically no matter what styles I wear and not expect any overall changes. I am who I am, and I look how I look. Anyone who wants to tweak that either has some serious control issues, is extremely shallow, or something else major going on, in my book. And I like hubby as he is too!

 

Yeah I know that most women gain weight after pregnancy. As long as we can work on loosing it within a reasonable amount of time, then there is no issue.

 

This attitude is extremely shallow and counterproductive to a relationship. In most cases, if the woman was fit beforehand, she'll probably want to lose weight, sure, but after some one pushes your kid out of their body, I think you'd have some nerve to complain about the baby weight, even if it NEVER all goes away. And sometimes a woman's body is never quite the same afterwards, really.

 

I would see no issue in loving a girl who has low self-esteem. The only problem might be if she needs constant reassurance, forever.

 

Perhaps that's because you ALSO have low self-esteem. Most healthy people in successful relationships do not. I suppose sometimes two low SE people find each other and help each other, but most of those seem to devolve into drama. Most people who do not have low SE cannot deal with someone with an abundance of it. Unless they have a savior/white knight complex.

 

And my point goes more to what you attract. When you love yourself, respect yourself, and think you're a catch, other people are more likely to think so. That's been proven time and time again---whatever the logic behind it is may be a question, but not the fact that it matters.

 

I don't think that's the right way to put it. I like myself, personality wise, and in isolation I think I look decent. I don't love my looks in relation to other people. My looks are the big thing I don't love about myself, and I don't love them because I've gotten constant negative feedback about them.

 

Your looks are a part of you, a part you fixate on, and you loathe them. You don't just "not love" them---it's excessive beyond that. And yes, loving how you look is part of loving yourself. You seem to want to separate your physical body from who YOU are (not possible). You beat yourself up about your looks---it's no wonder you get the feedback you get.

 

Your attitude about your looks is hurting you MUCH more than your looks. I stand by that assessment.

 

ETA: "Internalizing" negative feedback and particularly fixating more on negative feedback and minimizing positive feedback (if someone likes a pic of you, you say it's just the makeup or they're wrong or whatever) are also symptoms of dramatically low self-esteem, self-loathing, and issues of low self-worth. I suggest seeing someone about these issues or working on THESE issues in some way if you want greater success.

Edited January 25, 2012 by zengirl

[somedude81]

"Try something out" is one thing. (Losing weight is not "trying something out" nor is surgery.) I mean, if my hubby said, "Have you ever tried green eyeshadow?" I'd first do a spit take and ask him what he said and then answer his question. And I wouldn't mind putting on some easily removable eye makeup so he could see what it looked like,

but if it wasn't my cuppa I wouldn't wear it and if he wouldn't stay with me if I didn't wear it or brought it up again, I'd be miffed.

Him asking you if ever wore green eye shadow is enough to make to make you do a spit take? And you'd actually get mad if he brought it up again?

 

My hubby and I both consult each other on clothing buys sometimes and such --- he consults me more, as men do. And I wouldn't chop all of my hair off without at least a head's up. But for the most part, I expect him to love me basically no matter what styles I wear and not expect any overall changes. I am who I am, and I look how I look. Anyone who wants to tweak that either has some serious control issues, is extremely shallow, or something else major going on, in my book. And I like hubby as he is too!

This is obviously something you feel very strongly about. And I'll just stop it there.

 

 

This attitude is extremely shallow and counterproductive to a relationship. In most cases, if the woman was fit beforehand, she'll probably want to lose weight, sure, but after some one pushes your kid out of their body, I think you'd have some nerve to complain about the baby weight, even if it NEVER all goes away. And sometimes a woman's body is never quite the same afterwards, really.

Seriously?

 

And who said anything about complaining?

 

Some nerve? Zengirl, you are getting way too worked up over my posts. Maybe you should rethink your name?

[verhrzn]

Your looks are a part of you, a part you fixate on, and you loathe them. You don't just "not love" them---it's excessive beyond that. And yes, loving how you look is part of loving yourself. You seem to want to separate your physical body from who YOU are (not possible). You beat yourself up about your looks---it's no wonder you get the feedback you get.

 

Your attitude about your looks is hurting you MUCH more than your looks. I stand by that assessment.

 

I fixate on them because they're the one thing I've gotten feedback on that holds me back. Exes haven't dumped me for being insecure or not being smart enough. They've dumped me for being unattractive. How could I NOT fixate on the thing that I've been told is what's wrong, and yet I seem unable to fix?

 

I also don't see how beating myself up would lead to the feedback. I beat myself up BECAUSE of the feedback. I've always thought I was unattractive in comparison to my peers, but I didn't particularly CARE that I was until after my first boyfriend dumped me for a hotter girl. Back then, I considered my looks kind of... inconsequential. It wasn't until that first brutal dumping I realized that the whole "Oh beauty is only skin deep, your looks don't matter!" was utter bs.

 

ETA: "Internalizing" negative feedback and particularly fixating more on negative feedback and minimizing positive feedback (if someone likes a pic of you, you say it's just the makeup or they're wrong or whatever) are also symptoms of dramatically low self-esteem, self-loathing, and issues of low self-worth. I suggest seeing someone about these issues or working on THESE issues in some way if you want greater success.

 

Well I minimize feedback on this site because the feedback is coming from a single picture (or two) that I'm not sure accurately represent me in real life. How is that a sign of low self-esteem?

 

And exactly how does one go about "working on these issues"? How does one convince themselves that it's either okay to be unattractive, or that being unattractive isn't their problem when ALL the evidence points to that being the problem exactly?

[Lonely Ronin]

Your attitude about your looks is hurting you MUCH more than your looks. I stand by that assessment.

 

I completely agree with this, Somedude also has this problem with his height hang-up. I think they would both be substantially better off, if they could some how get over their issues. I think right now they are both caught up in self fulfilling prophecies.

[somedude81]

I completely agree with this, Somedude also has this problem with his height hang-up. I think they would both be substantially better off, if they could some how get over their issues. I think right now they are both caught up in self fulfilling prophecies.

I'd get over the issue once I get into a relationship.

 

And yeah, I'm aware of the whole catch-22 thing, about how I expect to get into a relationship while I have issues with my height.

[Lonely Ronin]

This is obviously something you feel very strongly about. And I'll just stop it there.

 

Jesus Man it's not just her.........

 

How would you feel if your where dating a woman and she told you, "I think you should have leg extension surgery so you're taller", because that would make you closer to her ideal man? Suggesting a woman get implants is pretty much the same thing.