What Are Realistic Expectations In Dating?

[xxoo]

And I feel the same -- if he loses his hair or gets a beer belly or grows a Mountain Man beard, I will still love him.

 

My H has done 2 out of 3 (lost hair, gained a Mountain Man beard), and I'm still crazy attracted to him!

 

somedude, I really hope that when you DO have a relationship, you fall in love to a point that things like breast size do not affect your attraction. I hope you see her as a whole, and not a sum of parts.

 

There is one thing about me that was not my H's "type" when we first got together. It is a changeable thing--a style thing--that he initially asked me to try differently. I did, but then went back to my own way, saying that this is how I am most comfortable. Within a few years, my H had actually developed a sort of "fetish" for MY way. THe way he wanted me to change at first is now his overwhelming preference.

 

If you fall for a girl with small breasts, and you have amazing sex with her for a couple years, you just might start associating small breasts with amazing sex, and start to prefer them. That's the power of love. And amazing sex

[jobaba]

Well,

 

I wanted to add to this discussion, that I was very glad to see recently the pictures of the wedding of an old forum friend (a different forum).

 

She is a big girl, and doesn't fit the standards of attractiveness that have been discussed in this forum for the most part..

 

But for what I remember about her, she was always a lot of fun! She always had something funny and witty to say, she was cool and easy going, nice, and everyone liked her.

 

I went ahead and created an album with some of her pictures. I think she looks absolutely beautiful, her new husband seems radiant, and in fact they all look so happy.

 

When I see her pictures I think, what a woman! And I imagine her husband must feel so proud to have her.

 

She's not that big. She's got a cute face too. I could actually see a girl like that rejecting me easily. The way you made it sound like she was a hideous whale that was lucky to ever have a man.

 

I don't really know about that. Does a woman get sexually excited just by looking or thinking about a tall man?

 

But as I pointed out, I've never been in a relationship. I have no idea what my views will be once that actually happens.

 

It seems to me that certain women are just totally turned off if a man is short. In contrast, if I see a really cute woman who's much taller than me, I'll think, "Damn. She's attractive. But she's way too tall. Darn genes."

 

I haven't read all the back posts but I don't think there's anything wrong with liking a woman with average size or bigger breasts. One of the female posters who was negging you recently said she needs guys to be of a certain height taller than her. I don't understand how one standard is OK and the other not. Hey. If I could pay $10,000 and spend 3 hours under the knife to gain even 2 inches on my height, you'd better believe I'd have done it yesterday.

 

Once SD meets a girl who likes him and is pretty cool, I'm sure he'll overlook that she falls slightly or somewhat out of his physical range. He doesn't have any experience so his range is still largely hypothetical.

 

Y'all must understand that...

[somedude81]

Edit:

 

Posted something in the wrong thread by accident.

Edited January 27, 2012 by somedude81

[aj22one]

 

I haven't read all the back posts but I don't think there's anything wrong with liking a woman with average size or bigger breasts. One of the female posters who was negging you recently said she needs guys to be of a certain height taller than her. I don't understand how one standard is OK and the other not. Hey. If I could pay $10,000 and spend 3 hours under the knife to gain even 2 inches on my height, you'd better believe I'd have done it yesterday.

 

Once SD meets a girl who likes him and is pretty cool, I'm sure he'll overlook that she falls slightly or somewhat out of his physical range. He doesn't have any experience so his range is still largely hypothetical.

 

Y'all must understand that...

 

All these height/body type/breast size/etc. standards people have are always theoretical and a lot of it I'm sure has to do with online dating and Hollywood stereotypes. Even I, with my absurd fetish understands that I could end up one day with a woman who doesn't meet that criteria. And anyone who's honest with themselves knows that while they may in theory prefer taller men, or big breasts or whatever, they could very well end up with someone outside of those parameters.

 

It's like Mike Tyson said: "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth".

[Els]

If you think an otherwise non-superficial woman with big breasts would not mind, SD, you might try to pay more attention to what V is saying. She has large breasts, and was quite offended at your posts as well. But really, if you don't get it by now, you won't be getting it within the span and function of a forum thread. Really, it's okay.

 

 

At any rate, none of that is the POINT that Elswyth was trying to make. She was pointing out that Somedude cannot reasonably expect to attract women who do not operate with the same degree of superficiality he operates with (which is rather high, IMO, and expressed in immature ways---I think this is likely do to his inexperience in some ways, but it also reinforces his inexperience and failure, as Elswyth says) because women who do not operate with that degree of superficiality --- even if they're gorgeous, big-busted, thin, sexbombs don't want a guy who thinks such superficial things. And, no, you can't keep such attitudes hidden.

 

Thank you for getting it. SD has recently mentioned that he doesn't mind women with superficial requirements though, so in that case, especially if he is working to improve other superficial characteristics of his own (muscle, money, etc), more power to him, I guess.

 

FTR, I'm a very thin girl with larger than A cup breasts at the moment, but I have no doubt my husband would love me if my breasts were smaller or I gained weight or whatever. He thinks I'm beautiful, but he doesn't see me as some combination of beauty components and he wouldn't dream of nitpicking or changing other facets of mine. And I feel the same -- if he loses his hair or gets a beer belly or grows a Mountain Man beard, I will still love him.

 

Yep, this. I think a large issue that inexperienced people face is that they don't understand (or at least don't consider the fact) that appearances will change over the years. That doesn't mean one's spouse is given carte blanche to gain 100 lbs for no medical reason, but breast sizes going up or down a little, gaining or losing 10-20 lbs, I think that is fairly normal and something most LTR couples can expect to go through in their lifetimes.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Elswyth

[zengirl]

I don't really know about that. Does a woman get sexually excited just by looking or thinking about a tall man?

 

Women I know don't typically get sexually excited by individual body parts. They certainly prefer certain body parts or looks, and they might get sexually excited by a hot guy, but female sexuality doesn't really tend to work this way. I understand men are sexually excited by breasts, though I would wager most men are sexually excited by breasts of all sizes---I bet youthfulness and perkiness play a larger role than size, to be honest---and just female nakedness in general.

 

While it's true that breasts don't have any real functionality in sex, they are a large part of my excitement. Just thinking about a woman with large breasts is enough to get me horny. My fascination with them borders on extreme and I've always been this way.

 

That's called a fixation, and it's unlikely to be attractive to women. It's very likely to be unattractive to women, if it 'borders on the extreme.' Yes, all guys like breasts. But when that becomes extreme, it reflects an immaturity and unattractive fixation on a body part. I'm not saying it's actually "bad" (to each their own), but it's going to repel women. Could be part of your problem. And don't think that just because you don't SAY something that people aren't sensing it, at least subconsciously. They probably are.

 

I definitely agree with you. While a large number of men love big breasts many men prefer them to be smaller. What I've noticed is that those men tend to focus on the ass or thighs instead.

 

I know a lot of men who can judge beauty more holistically, rather than chopping a woman up (by analysis) into parts. Most -- not all, but most -- of the men I consider relationship material are a lot like this. What's their type? I couldn't begin to tell you. They date all different types.

 

I have never met a woman who preferred short guys. And 5'8 is only an inch shorter than average. ~5'9.5

 

An inch and a half shorter than the mean and shorter than that in the mode and mean for my age group, but whatevs. That's still "short." They're among the shorter guys I've known, and most of the guys I dated before I met my H were in the 5'7'' - 5'9'' range, all shorter than the mean, was my point. As to shorter than that: I'm 5'6'' and I've actually only met 3 men in my age group who were shorter than me, and only one was in America. 2 were extremely thin, and one was way over muscled, so none of those were attractive to me.

 

I did always care, in dating, what a person looks like, and that's superficial to a degree; I think most people care, at least somewhat, though. But I can tell you that my H doesn't look much like most of the guys I dated before him or fit a lot of what I would've considered my "preferences." He actually probably is more handsome in a mainstream way, according to my friends. My point on that is my "preferences" were not so strong as to exclude him, or some others throughout the years really. Most people speak in terms of preferences when asked their type---not "requirements." Very different things. And people only give preferences to give an overview, not because they're fixated on them.

 

And plenty of shorter men have women attracted to them, as do plenty of women with smaller breasts. Which was my point.

 

OK, that's a little complicated for me to understand.

 

Are you saying that its superficial to be attracted to large busted women and that those women would not want a guy who's attracted to them?

 

Well, as Elswyth says, superficiality is NOT black and white. We are ALL superficial to some degree, probably even Elswyth!

 

To have a fixation on breasts and not only seek a woman with large breasts BUT do so to the point where you can have a thought like, "If a woman was otherwise perfect, I'd ask her to get breast implants if she had small breasts" (even having the thought, even if you don't SAY it) is an extreme version of superficiality, way above average in terms of the amount of superficiality the average person exercises. Many people have told you this, and you're not getting it.

 

Now, there are women who are also extremely superficial. (There may even be women like that who overlook height or for whom height is not a particular requirement or even gals like that who like shorter guys!) Those women will not care.

 

But for the majority of women who are less superficial than you on the spectrum, there will be many who do care about your degree of superficiality and find it off-putting. They will not date you, regardless of their breast size, your height, or any other physical factors, because they do not like your mindset.

 

That's absolutely the simplest way I can explain it.

Edited January 27, 2012 by zengirl

[somedude81]

Again with the implant talk. Am I having an argument with a tape recorder? After this thread, do any of you think I'm stupid enough to mention it out loud? As far as I am considered, I finished with the implant thought 3 days ago.

 

Is there any other example you can use besides that one line to explain why I am extremely superficial and how it is off-putting?

 

 

Women I know don't typically get sexually excited by individual body parts. They certainly prefer certain body parts or looks, and they might get sexually excited by a hot guy, but female sexuality doesn't really tend to work this way.

And that's why I chose the penis in my example. Because it's more connected to sexual excitement than a man being tall.

 

That's called a fixation, and it's unlikely to be attractive to women. It's very likely to be unattractive to women, if it 'borders on the extreme.' Yes, all guys like breasts. But when that becomes extreme, it reflects an immaturity and unattractive fixation on a body part. I'm not saying it's actually "bad" (to each their own), but it's going to repel women. Could be part of your problem. And don't think that just because you don't SAY something that people aren't sensing it, at least subconsciously. They probably are.

I know how to keep it under control. I can have a conversation with a woman whose over-flowing and never look down. I don't stare at random girls when I'm walking around either.

 

I highly doubt that me being very interested in breasts repelled women because I know how to behave myself.

 

I know a lot of men who can judge beauty more holistically, rather than chopping a woman up (by analysis) into parts. Most -- not all, but most -- of the men I consider relationship material are a lot like this. What's their type? I couldn't begin to tell you. They date all different types.

Just because a man dates all different types doesn't mean there isn't a type that he prefers.

 

Men will date whatever they can within reason.

 

 

An inch and a half shorter than the mean and shorter than that in the mode and mean for my age group, but whatevs. That's still "short."

So when average is about 5'9.5 for white males, 5'8 is considered short?

 

Then little 5'6 me must be a dwarf.

 

BTW zengirl, saying that, unlike the men you previously dated, your husband is traditionally handsome and very tall, doesn't help your case. Despite your preferences, you married the ideal man...

[FitChick]

Martin Luther King, Frank Sinatra, Bob Dylan, John McCain and Tom Cruise are 5 feet 7 inches tall. The first two are a bit shorter now since they're dead.

 

 

Here are some more short, successful men. They were short BEFORE they became successful.

[zengirl]

Again with the implant talk. Am I having an argument with a tape recorder? After this thread, do any of you think I'm stupid enough to mention it out loud? As far as I am considered, I finished with the implant thought 3 days ago.

 

Again, with the out loud talk. Have you not listened to me say time and again that it's the attitude that would make you even THINK that which is affecting you, not just saying it!

 

Is there any other example you can use besides that one line to explain why I am extremely superficial and how it is off-putting?

 

Your requirements for a woman being mostly physical. Your fixation on breasts, which you admit is extreme. Your fixation on your own height. It's your overall attitude. . . it's not just about some stupid comment; it's about the general attitude you have towards women, probably in part because you are so inexperienced, yes, but it could be contributing to that as well.

 

And that's why I chose the penis in my example. Because it's more connected to sexual excitement than a man being tall.

 

Not really. A sexy penis doesn't really turn me on (unless the sexy man its attached to already has) and you don't see too many women -- exceptions exist -- who can describe to you their perfect penis. The way it looks doesn't matter so much; size does only as far as it impacts performance. People may have turn offs: re: circumcision or shape or hairiness or something, but few women think of a penis and get revved up*. At least few I know. Hate to break it to you.

 

Unless, of course, it's attached to a man who revs them up. They may think of a particular penis and get revved up, of course, but that's a different example altogether. And it's about the man as a whole more than the penis.

 

I know how to keep it under control. I can have a conversation with a woman whose over-flowing and never look down. I don't stare at random girls when I'm walking around either.

 

Again, MISSING THE POINT.

 

So when average is about 5'9.5 for white males, 5'8 is considered short?

 

Then little 5'6 me must be a dwarf.

 

Well, average cup-size in the U.S. is B, by mean and mode, perhaps even slightly smaller by mean. *shrug* So it's about on-par with the boobs discussion, and that doesn't even factor in that weight affects breast size dramatically, thus most of the thin and desirable women are likely to have A or B cup breasts at largest (not all, of course).

 

BTW zengirl, saying that, unlike the men you previously dated, your husband is traditionally handsome and very tall, doesn't help your case. Despite your preferences, you married the ideal man...

 

It kinda does because my point were my preferences may have been less ideal, but they were actually more superficial. They were never all that strong---just established patterns---so not terribly superficial on the spectrum IMO, but my breaking said pattern and marrying a man who doesn't fit what I thought I wanted (even if the world finds him traditionally handsome) is an example of a lack of superficiality. I don't much give two figs if he's more or less traditionally handsome than anyone I dated, but it's ironic that he likely is because it's not why I like him! And if I was just looking for a tall, dark, super handsome guy with a great job and a nice car, he'd never have gone out with me because he's way too cool to go out with girls who are like that!

[FitChick]

Somedude, do you discriminate against tall women? You could be missing out on what these short men enjoy.

[EnigmaticClarity]

To have a fixation on breasts and not only seek a woman with large breasts BUT do so to the point where you can have a thought like, "If a woman was otherwise perfect, I'd ask her to get breast implants if she had small breasts" (even having the thought, even if you don't SAY it) is an extreme version of superficiality, way above average in terms of the amount of superficiality the average person exercises. Many people have told you this, and you're not getting it.

 

Now, there are women who are also extremely superficial. (There may even be women like that who overlook height or for whom height is not a particular requirement or even gals like that who like shorter guys!) Those women will not care.

 

But for the majority of women who are less superficial than you on the spectrum, there will be many who do care about your degree of superficiality and find it off-putting. They will not date you, regardless of their breast size, your height, or any other physical factors, because they do not like your mindset.

 

That's absolutely the simplest way I can explain it.

 

You guys aren't giving somedude much credit. First, he already said that while he prefers D, it isn't a requirement. Second, even if it were a requirement for him, I'd find it hard to imagine anyone with that kind of requirement would EVER tell the other person they had it. I know Janet Jackson and Lady GaGa are both self-admitted size queens because they know they're extraordinarily desirable, but for the average guy or girl who has specific boob or penis requirements for their long-term relationships, the odds of them revealing that are slim without feeling that person out first to determine if they'd even care.

Edited January 27, 2012 by EnigmaticClarity

[EnigmaticClarity]

Your requirements for a woman being mostly physical. Your fixation on breasts, which you admit is extreme.

 

I'm going to have to go with the stereotype that women mostly already do believe, that for whatever reason, you don't--that more men DO prefer larger breasts than don't. Not sure why you think otherwise--men aren't going to tell you this themselves.

 

 

Not really. A sexy penis doesn't really turn me on (unless the sexy man its attached to already has) and you don't see too many women -- exceptions exist -- who can describe to you their perfect penis. The way it looks doesn't matter so much; size does only as far as it impacts performance. People may have turn offs: re: circumcision or shape or hairiness or something, but few women think of a penis and get revved up*. At least few I know. Hate to break it to you.

 

I have yet to go out with a woman who didn't clearly enjoy seeing penises, whether it be mine or ones in movies. The thing I love the most about the new Hollywood trend of showing full frontal male nudity is that it usually gets whatever woman I'm with revved up--that's happened with all three of my most recent long-term girlfriends. Dr. Manhattan from "Watchmen," Jason Segal in "Forgetting Sarah Marshall," and just this past weekend Michael Fassbender in "Shame" all played a key part in getting my girlfriend (I had a different one at the time of each film) in the mood.

[FitChick]

The thing I love the most about the new Hollywood trend of showing full frontal male nudity ...

 

Thank God these film producers/directors are finally coming to their senses!

[EnigmaticClarity]

Thank God these film producers/directors are finally coming to their senses!

 

So you disagree with zengirl, then?

 

I suspect most people think that prior to this trend, there was a double-standard where women often appeared naked but men didn't. The standard was mostly the same--genitals were taboo. Full-frontal for women has been common for decades, but you can't see a woman's genitals unless she spreads her legs, and that's why we've been seeing women for so much longer. So oddly, the "bias" that actually was uniform for both sexes is now tipped in the opposite direction--with the new trend, you see male genitalia frequently, but you still NEVER see female genitalia. I've never seen it in any non-porno, ever.

[zengirl]

You guys aren't giving somedude much credit. First, he already said that while he prefers D, it isn't a requirement. Second, even if it were a requirement for him, I'd find it hard to imagine anyone with that kind of requirement would EVER tell the other person they had it. I know Janet Jackson and Lady GaGa are both self-admitted size queens because they know they're extraordinarily desirable, but for the average guy or girl who has specific boob or penis requirements for their long-term relationships, the odds of them revealing that are slim without feeling that person out first to determine if they'd even care.

 

"Revealing it" has nothing to do with it, as I said.

 

At any rate, I don't care about his breast preference. My point was his overall attitudes about these things could be one of the things holding him back with women who are less superficial, as Elswyth said. That's not really a criticism; just an observation.

 

I have yet to go out with a woman who didn't clearly enjoy seeing penises, whether it be mine or ones in movies. The thing I love the most about the new Hollywood trend of showing full frontal male nudity is that it usually gets whatever woman I'm with revved up--that's happened with all three of my most recent long-term girlfriends. Dr. Manhattan from "Watchmen," Jason Segal in "Forgetting Sarah Marshall," and just this past weekend Michael Fassbender in "Shame" all played a key part in getting my girlfriend (I had a different one at the time of each film) in the mood.

 

Yes, actors they like. . . those are dudes they enjoy, so they want to see their penises. Thus not against my point and missing my point.

[FitChick]

That double standard bugged me for years. I appreciate male pulchritude and so do most women I know. However, a lot of male nudity tends to be for comic effect -- the men are not that attractive physically.

 

Did you ever see Sex and the City (film) with that guy in the shower (who later appeared on Dancing with the Stars)? Hung like the proverbial horse.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Yes, actors they like. . . those are dudes they enjoy, so they want to see their penises. Thus not against my point and missing my point.

 

That's an assumption that isn't correct with these women. Dr. Manhattan was computer-generated, so any woman who found that film provocative wouldn't have a connection to an actor. You could say that since the body was loosely modelled after Billy Crudup it could be an attachment to him, but she hadn't seen him before. Dunno if previous girlfriend knew Jason Segal, but she never told me she did. Current girlfriend DEFINITELY didn't know who Fassbender was, I liked him in "X-Men: First Class" and told her about him, she didn't know him before "Shame" and hated the character after she did see it--he's not terribly likable other than Fassbender's appearance if you've seen the film or heard about the topic it covers (inability to connect in relationships and sex addiction). Here's the conversation we had about him after that movie:

 

her: "Were you threatened by Fassbender's size?"

me: "I couldn't tell, I can never tell from flaccid, you never know how much they'll grow, and I could barely see it due to the lighting. Why, did you notice?

her: "Yea, it's my favorite topic."

me: "Was he bigger than what you're used to seeing?" (she's an ER nurse, she sees naked men multiple times a day)

her: "Yea, he was pretty big for a white guy."

me: "Haha. Well the answer is no, I couldn't tell, but even if I could, I never obsess on things I can't control."

 

In my experience, women are provoked by male nudity, and I presume that's why Hollywood has started showing it more.

[somedude81]

Again, with the out loud talk. Have you not listened to me say time and again that it's the attitude that would make you even THINK that which is affecting you, not just saying it!

......

 

 

At any rate, I don't care about his breast preference. My point was his overall attitudes about these things could be one of the things holding him back with women who are less superficial, as Elswyth said. That's not really a criticism; just an observation.

Can you explain how my overall attitude could be holding me back?

 

I am just not seeing it.

 

Women are not psychic so I just can't connect the dots in how thinking it's OK to suggest a girl to get implants leads to women rejecting me. Nor can I see how my fetish for large breasts has any impact either.

[Els]

This pretty much sums up the last few pages of the thread. I don't really see why it's so difficult to grasp.

 

 

At any rate, I don't care about his breast preference. My point was his overall attitudes about these things could be one of the things holding him back with women who are less superficial, as Elswyth said. That's not really a criticism; just an observation.

 

[EnigmaticClarity]

Did you ever see Sex and the City (film) with that guy in the shower (who later appeared on Dancing with the Stars)? Hung like the proverbial horse.

 

Didn't see it, but that keeps happening in film more and more. My girlfriend was fascinated by a scene from an Owen Wilson film last year named "Hall Pass" where he falls asleep in a hot tub and two guys come to pull him out, both naked, and one with a huge penis and one with a prosthetic tiny one. In the first season of "Spartacus: Blood and Sand" on Starz, one of the gladiators was shown with a huge penis as well, which was a plot point in the show because he tried to kill Spartacus and was crucified for it--but not before they tortured him to find out who put him up to it, which included lopping off the large member they had previously called attention to.

[ptp]

Are you kidding me. The male physique is disgusting as are male genitalia nobody wants to see that .

 

The female figure is way more aesthetically pleasing.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Are you kidding me. The male physique is disgusting as are male genitalia nobody wants to see that .

 

Female genitalia doesn't look much better--it's why some people call it "bumping uglies". You're probably just not thinking as much about it because it's tightly tucked away between their legs when not in use.

 

Separate from the aesthetic appeal of genitals, most people just find them provocative because they're usually hidden from view.

[zengirl]

In my experience, women are provoked by male nudity, and I presume that's why Hollywood has started showing it more.

 

I've never known a woman who liked a guy more because he had a hot penis. (Maybe because he was good in bed, sure!) I am not saying women don't want to see hot men naked---that's a totally separate thing.

 

Can you explain how my overall attitude could be holding me back?

 

I am just not seeing it.

 

Women are not psychic so I just can't connect the dots in how thinking it's OK to suggest a girl to get implants leads to women rejecting me. Nor can I see how my fetish for large breasts has any impact either.

 

I'm not suggesting people are 'reading your mind' but yes, people can pick up on all these internal attitudes and beliefs you have, if only subconsciously.

 

Are you kidding me. The male physique is disgusting as are male genitalia nobody wants to see that .

 

The female figure is way more aesthetically pleasing.

 

I think the male body is lovely, though genitalia in general are not the best part of either gender, really. That wasn't my point. My point was it's pretty rare that a woman would go out with a guy because he has a hot penis.

[Dust]

Can you explain how my overall attitude could be holding me back?

 

I am just not seeing it.

 

Women are not psychic so I just can't connect the dots in how thinking it's OK to suggest a girl to get implants leads to women rejecting me. Nor can I see how my fetish for large breasts has any impact either.

 

You've posted enough here we've all got a glimpse inside your mind. Fetish by its very nature will limit you. So you're self imposed limitations plus your whiney behavior on the subject compels women to coment.

[EnigmaticClarity]

I've never known a woman who liked a guy more because he had a hot penis. (Maybe because he was good in bed, sure!) I am not saying women don't want to see hot men naked---that's a totally separate thing.

 

You had said they don't get women revved up, but they do. Women definitely like guys with hot penises more in relationships as well--there are long threads in these forums where lots of women admit this. Most women in the threads here and that I've met in person say anything below 5" is a turn-off--and given that a significant number of men are below that, that means there's bound to be quite a bit of dissatisfaction amongst women out there.

 

I haven't seen a significant difference in men's preference for above-average breasts and women's preference for above-average penises. They're both common preferences--many women want 6" to 7", i.e. above average to large, and many men want a C or D cup, i.e. above average to large. Men and women are also similar in not wanting TOO big--above 8" hurts, and above an E or F cup is too big to handle and looks too fleshy.

Edited January 27, 2012 by EnigmaticClarity