What Are Realistic Expectations In Dating?

[zengirl]

You had said they don't get women revved up, but they do. Women definitely like guys with hot penises more in relationships as well--there are long threads in these forums where lots of women admit this. Most women in the threads here and that I've met in person say anything below 5" is a turn-off--and given that a significant number of men are below that, that means there's bound to be quite a bit of dissatisfaction amongst women out there.

 

I haven't seen a significant difference in men's preference for above-average breasts and women's preference for above-average penises. They're both common preferences--many women want 6" to 7", i.e. above average to large, and many men want a C or D cup, i.e. above average to large. Men and women are also similar in not wanting TOO big--above 8" hurts, and above an E or F cup is too big to handle and looks too fleshy.

 

Well, you and I have obviously seen different things is all I can say. And I did say a penis can get a girl revved up if it's attached to a hot man, but I seriously doubt you can find an unattractive guy who attracts girls with his awesome penis. Just doesn't happen. It's like a Sitcom Urban Legend.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Well, you and I have obviously seen different things is all I can say. And I did say a penis can get a girl revved up if it's attached to a hot man, but I seriously doubt you can find an unattractive guy who attracts girls with his awesome penis. Just doesn't happen. It's like a Sitcom Urban Legend.

 

Err, yea...and unattractive women don't attract men just because of their awesome boobs for the most part either, although I'll grant it probably happens more with unattractive women than men since women can't even see a penis until they get the guy into bed, and if he's unattractive, that won't usually happen.

 

I used to think women didn't like male nudity for most of my life until the last few years after I exited a 14-year relationship and started dating again, during which time I've heard many scores of women say the opposite. Virtually every thread on the topic in these forums verifies just how much women love the schlong.

[Ross MwcFan]

If women do find the male body and genetalia to be a turn on visually, why do the media and TV shows always portray it as the opposite?

 

Becuase of this, I always thought women thought the male body and genetalia was ugly. But after reading relationship forums like this, it's taught me that this isn't actually true.

[verhrzn]

If women do find the male body and genetalia to be a turn on visually, why do the media and TV shows always portray it as the opposite?

 

Becuase of this, I always thought women thought the male body and genetalia was ugly. But after reading relationship forums like this, it's taught me that this isn't actually true.

 

A big part of this is because the media of male-centric. It's only recently that advertisers and producers realized women are a viable demographic to target (cause now they have independent wealth) which is why you're slowly starting to see an uptick in the sorts of things that appeal to women.

 

The problem with appealing to women, though, is that advertisers have (mostly right) deduced that it turns men OFF. Men as a group tend to be a lot more homophobic and gender-rigid about their own preferences than women. Example: women can see other naked women presented as sexy objects (think any beer commercial ever) and not suddenly turn into lesbians (despite what QuietGuy seems to think.)

 

Contrast that with men, who seem to think that even glancing at a penis outside of porn that isn't immediately going to enter a vagina, will suddenly turn them gay. I've had straight male friends refuse to watch shows like "Queer As Folk" because naked men made them so uncomfortable.

 

So, if you show sexy lady parts, not only do you cater to the male demographic but you don't automatically repel women. But if you show sexy men parts, yeah, you'll attract the ladies, but men will flee from your entertainment venue in droves lest they catch gay feelings.

 

You also need to remember that women in media, for the longest time, have actually been written by men. Female characters up until recently weren't written by females, from a female perspective... They were created by male directors, male producers, male writers, with the only female input being the actress. So a lot of what you see women in the media (movies, TV shows) saying is actually just parroting a male viewpoint, or echoing what guys THINK a female thinks. Straight guys think male bodies are gross, ergo, the female character thinks male bodies are gross.

[EnigmaticClarity]

If women do find the male body and genetalia to be a turn on visually, why do the media and TV shows always portray it as the opposite?

 

Where have you seen this? The only time I have is when Elaine said it on Seinfeld back in the 1990s.

 

I suspect "Sex and the City" has changed female attitudes towards sexuality in general quite a lot. Most women I know who are more open about sexuality also LOVE that show.

[verhrzn]

Where have you seen this? The only time I have is when Elaine said it on Seinfeld back in the 1990s.

 

I suspect "Sex and the City" has changed female attitudes towards sexuality in general quite a lot. Most women I know who are more open about sexuality also LOVE that show.

 

Wanna know something funny? While the series is based on a book written by a woman, the main creator and writer of the show is a gay man.

 

Here's a good visual example of how male-centric the media is. Compare the real-live poster of the upcoming "Avengers" movie.

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2011/08/31/avengers-art-loki/

 

All the guys looking super hard core and powerful, and Black Widow looking.... um, like she's got a sexy butt. (This is also known as the Male Gaze.)

 

Now compare that to a fan comic of what the poster would look like if done with female audiences in mind:

 

http://splashpage.mtv.com/2011/11/30/avengers-fan-art-assembles-earths-mightiest-butts/

[FitChick]

Where have you seen this? The only time I have is when Elaine said it on Seinfeld back in the 1990s.

 

The shrinkage episode! It's toward the end of

but the whole few minutes is well worth watching again. Loved that show!

[zengirl]

Most women I know don't really relate to SATC. They might like it (I think it's funny sometimes, and so do many of my friends), but they don't really see themselves in it. In fact, I think those girls are all kind of. . . jerks. But YMMV. Might explain for the difference in reactions we've seen.

[Ross MwcFan]

A big part of this is because the media of male-centric. It's only recently that advertisers and producers realized women are a viable demographic to target (cause now they have independent wealth) which is why you're slowly starting to see an uptick in the sorts of things that appeal to women.

 

The problem with appealing to women, though, is that advertisers have (mostly right) deduced that it turns men OFF. Men as a group tend to be a lot more homophobic and gender-rigid about their own preferences than women. Example: women can see other naked women presented as sexy objects (think any beer commercial ever) and not suddenly turn into lesbians (despite what QuietGuy seems to think.)

 

Contrast that with men, who seem to think that even glancing at a penis outside of porn that isn't immediately going to enter a vagina, will suddenly turn them gay. I've had straight male friends refuse to watch shows like "Queer As Folk" because naked men made them so uncomfortable.

 

So, if you show sexy lady parts, not only do you cater to the male demographic but you don't automatically repel women. But if you show sexy men parts, yeah, you'll attract the ladies, but men will flee from your entertainment venue in droves lest they catch gay feelings.

 

You also need to remember that women in media, for the longest time, have actually been written by men. Female characters up until recently weren't written by females, from a female perspective... They were created by male directors, male producers, male writers, with the only female input being the actress. So a lot of what you see women in the media (movies, TV shows) saying is actually just parroting a male viewpoint, or echoing what guys THINK a female thinks. Straight guys think male bodies are gross, ergo, the female character thinks male bodies are gross.

 

A lot of what you've said makes sense, thanks.

[Ross MwcFan]

Where have you seen this? The only time I have is when Elaine said it on Seinfeld back in the 1990s.

 

I suspect "Sex and the City" has changed female attitudes towards sexuality in general quite a lot. Most women I know who are more open about sexuality also LOVE that show.

 

I can't remember anywhere in particular, but yeah, Elaine in Seinfield was one of them.

[EnigmaticClarity]

You also need to remember that women in media, for the longest time, have actually been written by men. Female characters up until recently weren't written by females, from a female perspective... They were created by male directors, male producers, male writers, with the only female input being the actress. So a lot of what you see women in the media (movies, TV shows) saying is actually just parroting a male viewpoint, or echoing what guys THINK a female thinks. Straight guys think male bodies are gross, ergo, the female character thinks male bodies are gross.

 

I'm bet Larry David wrote that bit that Elaine said in the Seinfeld episode about women not liking the male form--he's said almost exactly the same thing himself, can't remember where, it was either in his standup or in his own HBO show "Curb Your Enthusiasm."

[ptp]

 

I'll make it really simple, if men and women were cars this the comparison:

 

Male physique

 

Female figure

 

You tell me which is more visually appealing.

[zengirl]

I think the distinction for me is:

 

Women do like men's bodies, but if they looked at a picture of a penis (just a penis, not a naked man), even a particularly attractive one, would they be turned on? I'd wager most would not.

 

The same thing can not be said for men and a great pair of tits.

 

That illustrates my main point. As to saying male bodies are gross... that seems odd, but it makes sense on Seinfeld. I don't want to see ANYONE from that show naked! Other than that, I don't get it, and that definitely wasn't what I was saying in my analogy.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Women do like men's bodies, but if they looked at a picture of a penis (just a penis, not a naked man), even a particularly attractive one, would they be turned on? I'd wager most would not.

 

I'd take that bet if there were a way to establish it--I think you're wrong, at least in America. I used to think you were right, but not anymore.

 

The caveat is that I would think men would be turned on MORE--more frequently and more intensely--simply because they have a greater sex drive in general.

Edited January 27, 2012 by EnigmaticClarity

[zengirl]

I'd take that bet if there were a way to establish it--I think you're wrong, at least in America. I used to think you were right, but not anymore.

 

The caveat is that I would think men would be turned on MORE--more frequently and more intensely--simply because they have a greater sex drive in general.

 

See, I'm not sure I believe men have a greater sex drive in general. I just think the requirements for igniting the male sex drive are more often met than the requirements for igniting the female sex drive.

[Teknoe]

SD, I got to point something out to you for your own benefit.

 

Can you explain how my overall attitude could be holding me back?

 

I am just not seeing it.

 

Look at your dating record, or lack thereof. Do you see it now?

 

You want further proof how your attitude is holding you back? Here's some more, pulled from your infamous 1,000+ reply I FEEL LIKE CRAP thread in Self-Improvement -- November 2011.

 

 

I saw my lady friend today and we hung out for a couple of hours which was all she could manage to spare. Despite the short amount of time together, I managed to get her mad at me, twice.

 

The first time we were looking at a little shirt kiosk on campus and I joked that she should pick a shirt that shows some cleavage.

 

When we left the kiosk she told me that I shouldn't have made that comment about her cleavage and that it embarrassed and upset her. I apologized and I explained that I didn't know that it would be embarrassing for her and that I haven't really been around girls that much to know what is appropriate to talk about around them.

 

I sent her a few texts apologizing but she didn't respond. And then I told her that we have to talk and that I don't like having negativity between us. She replied, that we can talk in a couple of days since she has a lot going on. Not really what I expected but still better than nothing.

 

For further reference here is the entire post:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3719912&postcount=915

 

Not picking on you, just an observation and BECAUSE YOU ASKED FOR REASONING.

 

Your breast fetish helped lead to the destruction of your "friendship" with D. How can you sit there and NOT see that your attitude is a little faulty?

 

One of the reasons why you're always stuck in the same old rut is because you refuse to embrace solutions for change followed by the desire to carry out those potential solutions. 90% of your posts compose of denying what someone says or thinks about you, and you always follow up with more of the same "How do I ____" questions. We give you some possible answers, but still you ask the same type of questions over and over again.

 

As if you're looking for some magical simple easy answer that you can adopt. Somehow though, you always find excuses not to try them out.

 

This is why you're in the rut that you are. If you want to change, you need to change this defensive mindset. Go from defense to OFFENSE.

 

Offense = being proactive in solving your own shortcomings.

 

Staying at home posting the same stuff and ?'s on LS over and over won't do you much good. If you want to stay stuck in this battlefield of your mind forever, be my guest.

 

Believe it or not, we're rooting for you. All our "challenging" posts aren't to denigrate your character. It's to help push you to face the hard truths you've been putting off. As long as you continue to deny and ignore them, you will never be content.

[EnigmaticClarity]

See, I'm not sure I believe men have a greater sex drive in general. I just think the requirements for igniting the male sex drive are more often met than the requirements for igniting the female sex drive.

 

Why or how is that?

[Teknoe]

Again with the implant talk. Am I having an argument with a tape recorder? After this thread, do any of you think I'm stupid enough to mention it out loud? As far as I am considered, I finished with the implant thought 3 days ago.

 

Is there any other example you can use besides that one line to explain why I am extremely superficial and how it is off-putting?

 

Do you see it now?

 

The above REAL LIFE example you had with D, and how the house of cards came crashing down?

 

Can you deny it at this point that there ISN'T a problem? Look, I'm not trying to shame you or anything. Believe me, I have my own shortcomings. But the key is, are you honest with yourself?

 

Denial will lead you straight to a dead end time after time.

 

I know how to keep it under control. I can have a conversation with a woman whose over-flowing and never look down. I don't stare at random girls when I'm walking around either.

 

I highly doubt that me being very interested in breasts repelled women because I know how to behave myself

 

You didn't keep it under control with D.

You repelled her with that insensitive cleavage comment at the kiosk.

 

This is as good a time as any to re-examine yourself. In the privacy of your own time. I don't need you to admit "defeat" or anything. Just giving you things to chew on in the privacy of your own waking moments.

 

You asked for another example, and I gave you what you asked for.

[somedude81]

Damn Teknoe, haven't seen you in forever.

 

Your breast fetish helped lead to the destruction of your "friendship" with D. How can you sit there and NOT see that your attitude is a little faulty?

So close but no.

 

Me and D have joked about breasts before. The first time we went to a mall together she told me that she doesn't wear girly shirts because her chest is is too big. Then one time when we were walking on the beach we were joking about what would happen if her breasts start really sagging. I mentioned that they'd go down to her knees, she laughed and said, "At that point I'll just chop them off."

 

No, the reason why she got mad the most recent time was because I said it when the clerk was right there and that embarrassed her. If it was just us two with nobody to overhear, she would have been fine.

[Teknoe]

Damn Teknoe, haven't seen you in forever.

 

Yup, it's been a while. I been out and about. Living life. Failing. Getting knocked down, but never staying down. I decided to check back in here, and I see you're still thinking in the same patterns as you did last year.

 

Me and D have joked about breasts before. The first time we went to a mall together she told me that she doesn't wear girly shirts because her chest is is too big. Then one time when we were walking on the beach we were joking about what would happen if her breasts start really sagging. I mentioned that they'd go down to her knees, she laughed and said, "At that point I'll just chop them off."

 

Notice that she is the one who brings it up though. You have to know how to READ A SITUATION.

 

Your breast comment at the kiosk came without her bringing up the topic. It was incredibly insensitive and immature. That's just the facts. If I did that, I would label my own self in THAT moment immature and insensitive.

 

It's not about YOU. It's about the ACTIONS.

 

 

No, the reason why she got mad the most recent time was because I said it when the clerk was right there and that embarrassed her. If it was just us two with nobody to overhear, she would have been fine.

 

Do you honestly, really think just because the clerk was right there that she decided to get mad and pretty much your friendship ended there?

 

It was a build-up. That was simply the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

It's not about the clerk here. It's about how you were clinging onto her when she clearly didn't care as much about the friendship as you did. You contacted her more often, you set up most of the hang outs.

 

She was just looking for a way out at that point in time (kiosk day). She took the first insensitive opportunity she could to "opt out" of your friendship, and in fact, opt out of your life.

 

You should honestly re-evaluate what really went wrong with D. It's more than the clerk being there. Believe me, if he weren't there, and it was just you and D, she would still be upset.

 

When you decide to finally stop blaming others/the world for your own lack of success, then you'll start to make some REAL progress.

[somedude81]

Sigh, more assumptions.

 

No, she always wasn't the one to bring up the topic of boobs.

 

The only thing you're right about is that I didn't correctly read the situation and realize that it wasn't an appropriate time. Lesson learned.

 

Do you honestly, really think just because the clerk was right there that she decided to get mad and pretty much your friendship ended there?

Of course not. I never thought that, that moment was the time she decided to end the friendship. Because it wasn't. We were together that day for a couple more hours after she gave me a talking to.

 

I have a pretty good idea of went wrong with D and I know it was a combination of things. Talking about her boobs wasn't one of them.

[jobaba]

For further reference here is the entire post:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3719912&postcount=915

 

Not picking on you, just an observation and BECAUSE YOU ASKED FOR REASONING.

 

Your breast fetish helped lead to the destruction of your "friendship" with D. How can you sit there and NOT see that your attitude is a little faulty?

 

 

Wow. I just skimmed some of that thread. Some good late night before bed reading.

 

What was the conclusion between you and her, SD?

 

Also ... I don't know why women feel like they need to play these silly little games with guys. Picking and choosing which texts to respond to and when to respond to them. GROW UP! Either you 1) like him, 2) want him as a friend, or 3) don't want anything to do with him. One of three things. Be a real human being and commit to one instead of feeding your own selfish little ego and torturing some poor guy. Jeez...

 

I hope at least one woman read that last paragraph.

[somedude81]

My conclusion with her?

 

So many mixed feelings.

 

I don't know if she was purposefully messing with me or not. She seemed kind of cold when she wasn't around and we were just texting, but in person, she was so great. We always had a blast.

 

I think there was a whole bunch of psychological things going on with her behind the scenes that made everything really complicated. Me being who I am probably made things harder.

 

We met almost exactly two years ago and I think it's a shame that things turned out this way. Though I'm not exactly surprised. Sh*t always goes wrong between me and girls eventually.

 

I still wonder what I could have done differently. But now I realize that the core way I interact with women is flawed. I'm too friendly and don't have anywhere near enough sexual energy. Until I change that, I'm not going to get anywhere.

 

And to the other readers, my problems with women have nothing to do with the fact that I don't love my height or that I think it's acceptable to suggest implants. Nor am I going to fall for all the psychic women nonsense that they can detect those thoughts and reject me because of it.

[jobaba]

My conclusion with her?

 

So many mixed feelings.

 

I don't know if she was purposefully messing with me or not. She seemed kind of cold when she wasn't around and we were just texting, but in person, she was so great. We always had a blast.

 

I think there was a whole bunch of psychological things going on with her behind the scenes that made everything really complicated. Me being who I am probably made things harder.

 

We met almost exactly two years ago and I think it's a shame that things turned out this way. Though I'm not exactly surprised. Sh*t always goes wrong between me and girls eventually.

 

I still wonder what I could have done differently. But now I realize that the core way I interact with women is flawed. I'm too friendly and don't have anywhere near enough sexual energy. Until I change that, I'm not going to get anywhere.

 

What was the physical conclusion though?

 

Did you cut contact with her or vice versa?

 

I had a similar situation where a female friend I knew well who rejected me was 'playing' with my attempts to be platonic. For all intents and purposes, I was genuinely trying see how she was doing and keep her in my life as a friend. She'd respond to some posts and not others and leave long gaps between responding. I knew she was usually prompt and casual with texting because I was around her. A ton.

 

So either she was playing games or thought I was a tool that wasn't worth keeping as a friend. Either way, not worth it to me.

 

It does kind of upset me that I fell for someone who is such a coarse person though...

[Teknoe]

The only thing you're right about is that I didn't correctly read the situation and realize that it wasn't an appropriate time. Lesson learned.

 

I'm going to come at a different angle, one in which you may be able to receive.

 

This is just a POSSIBLE explanation, not guaranteed, but it's possible. Read with an open mind.

 

You agreed with me that the timing was wrong.

 

Let me assume that your social filter needs some tweaking? If your social filter was excellent, you wouldn't have made that ill-advised comment about cleavage, correct?

 

So let me throw this at ya, and you think about it.

 

Was it possible... again, that kiosk day you and D were starting to get toward the 'end of the rope' so to speak. I remember you voicing your frustration of the 'friendship' in late 2011. It's safe to assume the friendship in late 2011 wasn't as strong as it was in the summer time, yes?

 

So, your mind was racing. You knew deep down you were losing her. In your mind you thought "We had some fun with breast-related jokes in the past. Ah, the past. A time when D and I were tighter than we are now. I hate how she is slipping away from me. I know. I can make a breast-related joke just like I did in the summer time. She laughed then, and we had some good times. Maybe she'll laugh if I play that old card again."

 

Your mind subconsciously thought of this. Then, out came your cleavage comment. The problem is, we can never take back what comes out of our mouths. Once it's out, it's out there.

 

Obviously, it was not a good day for you. Your social filter was off. The joke was poor in terms of timing, and probably content based on how far your friendship with her had dipped off compared to the summer time. The joke was simply ill-advised at all angles.

 

Just something to chew on.