What's it like to be married to a Bipolar person?

[dreamingoftigers]

the reason it got to Stage 3 (me trying to articulate it and add the "or this is Strike One" threat.) is because "can you clean up the dog piss?" didn't work on three occasions. Plus I made it very clear that she has to clean it up right away and if the dog keeps going on the floor, she'll be having to find a new place to live.

[betterdeal]

Ah right. I read it as you saying "it grosses me out", which is what I see no point in articulating. My mistake.

[RecordProducer]

I personally believe that we (and therefore by extension our seemingly inexplainsble actions) are a combination of 3 things:

 

1. Our neural function

2. Our history

3. the influence of a higher power or Quantum Field or what have you

 

Without reiterating yourthoughts, I agree with everything you said and have felt like that for a long time. With that being said, I also agree with Betterdeal's statement quoted below. I think it makes you a better person if you can view people holistically rather than unilaterally ("you don't make me feel good so get lost"). But he is right that trying to understand these people may interfere with our own happiness - which is how I inter[ret the bolded sentence. You have to get inside their "sick" minds and become something else in order to understand them - and you want to understand them in order to love them - which is what the underlined sentence is essentuially saying. I know you're doing that to understand your husband and I've done the same, but it's a vicious cycle, babe. Not worth your energy. Your secret (unconscious) goal is to become like him so you can understand why he is the way he is and hopefully end up discovering that in his alien language his actions actually mean deep, true love. You won't become an alien, you'll just rewire your brain to think like his - but feel like yours. Do you know what I mean? I think Betterdeal knows what I mean and I think you do, too.

 

The point of seeing a dickhead as a dickhead, and not a patient or an animal with a specific genotype or environmental experiences, is it makes it easier for you to deal with them. When you spend time delving into why they are like they are, you are not spending time creating the right conditions for you. You are prevaricating, and evading the rather daunting task of changing your brain chemistry, the inner most part of you. There is always a selfish reason to everything we do, and when you accumulate days of research yet cannot bring yourself to spend a couple of hours changing the locks, that's yours.

 

Here's the thing with me: I am ridiculously clear on what I want and expect from people.

This is a very bad thing for a relationship. The less you expect the happier you are in love. The couples who watch baseball games together and talk about shopping and food and the happiest - not the ones who discuss "us." But in your case, DOT, you can't help it because your SO is not treating you right, so I understand you. I did the very same thing. And when I didn't talk about us it was even worse because I felt like my identity was being ripped out of me and locked in the basement.

So I kind of flip it around:

 

"Seeing the dog pee not cleaned up is grossing me out. It needs to be taken care of right away."

Yeah, you just flip it around but it's still the same thing. Removing personal nouns by turning active verbs into passive doesn't convey a different message. Even worse: when you say "The dog poo is not cleaned up!" you leave it to the subject to construe how badly you think they screwed up and you're not even honoring them with your statement of expectation. It's like telling Obama "So many people have lost their homes!" - he knows you're blaming him for everything. But if you say "You didn't save the homes from foreclosure like you promised," you're giving him the chance to respond and explain, even though it's a more direct attack.

 

It's more respectful to say directly what you think but stick to the facts. E.g. "I feel so lonely when you go to the bar after work." And STOP. Both are facts: she feels lonely - he goes to the bar. No attack, no expectations expressed. The guilt trip is there, but it's non-accusatory and even makes him feel wanted and missed. Of course, this is just an example. No, I didn't do this when I was married. I did all the wrong things, but I don't regret it because the marriage was a pile of crap anyway.

"You are loved by me" vs "I love You"

Who ever says "you're loved by me," except maybe in a certain context?

 

So in summation my two main obstacles are: articulating anger in a non-shaming way and enforcing the actual boundaries I do make when someone goes "yep, okay" and then does the exact opposite.

Exactly my problems, as well!

 

DOT, you're a very loving, caring and passionate young woman, a great thinker with unique opinions, and your SO is an insecure control freak. You're trying to understand him so you can accept him and enjoy your love, while he is suffocating you with his passive-aggressive behavior. You sound very unhappy and confused, but you have to stop analyzing him. I did that for years with my ex and it was an agony. I still analyze him occasionally but it's out of mere curiosity and egotistical urges - I can walk away from it after a few minutes or hours. You're stuck with this guy for now and your brain is working like a water mill without getting anywhere.

 

By the way, what is it that he did to your family and where is your daughter?

With the example you gave, a "Jo, can you clean up the dog piss." would be my first request.

To me, it's not that emotive an issue.

I agree with this.

[betterdeal]

What good does it do your daughter? What good does it do you? Is it harmful to you or your daughter? If you have these questions in mind you will make tangible changes for the better.

 

The good/evil model of a personality is holding you back. Discard it. If people judge you as an evil / bad person, let them walk a mile in your shoes.

 

And your husband. Is he spending as much effort trying to understand you? Is he good for you or your daughter? I mean right now, presently, not in the past, or in the future.

 

Change the locks in your mind.

[worldgonewrong]

I'm piggybacking on this thread, and hope I'm not re-treading some already-hashed-out stuff, but I have to get it off my chest.

 

I think my wife is BP, based on her rather severe black-n-white classification of others (me included, natch).

 

Is another element of BP also 'transference'? Like, by the end, she was classifying me as BP, attributing aspects to my personality which don't exist.

She's quite able to insist when others need mental help, but does not take her own temperature in that regard.

[Downtown]

It suddenly occurred to me that maybe my ex-husband is bipolar, too.

RP, the behaviors you are describing are far closer to traits of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) than BD (bipolar disorder). I am not a psychologist but I lived with a BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of a bipolar foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found many clear differences between the two disorders.

 

One difference is seen in the frequency of mood changes. Bipolar mood swings are very slow because they are caused by gradual changes in body chemistry. They are considered rapid if as many as four occur in a year. In contrast, four BPD mood changes can easily occur in four days. You seem to be describing these more frequent mood changes that are characteristic of BPD traits.

 

A second difference is seen in duration. Whereas bipolar moods typically last a week or two, BPD rages typically last only a few hours (and rarely as long as 36 hours). This is a significant difference because you seem to be describing very short-lived mood changes.

 

A third difference is seen in the speed with which the mood change develops. Whereas a bipolar change typically will build slowly over two weeks, a BPD change typically occurs in less than a minute -- often in only 10 seconds -- because it is event-triggered by some innocent comment or action. You seem to be describing these event-triggered mood changes.

 

A fourth difference is that, whereas bipolar can be treated very successfully in at least 80% of victims by swallowing a pill, BPD cannot be managed by medication because it arises from childhood damage to the emotional core -- not from a change in body chemistry.

 

A fifth difference is that, whereas bipolar disorder can cause people to be irritable and obnoxious during the manic phase, it does not rise to the level of meanness and vindictiveness you see when a BPDer is splitting you black. That difference is HUGE: while a manic person may regard you as an irritation, a BPDer can perceive you as Hitler and will treat you accordingly.

 

Finally, a sixth difference is that a bipolar sufferer -- whether depressed or manic -- usually is able to trust you if she knows you well. Untreated BPDers, however, are unable to trust for an extended period -- even though they sometimes may claim otherwise. This lack of trust means there is no foundation on which to build a relationship. Yet, despite these six clear differences between the two disorders, many people confuse the two. One source of this confusion seems to be the fact that a substantial portion of BPD sufferers (about 25%) also have the bipolar disorder.

 

Significantly, only a professional can determine whether your exH meets 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having the full-blown disorder. This does not mean, however, that you cannot spot strong occurrences of BPD traits in a man you lived with for many years. On the contrary, there is nothing subtle about such traits as icy withdrawal, lack of trust, sudden mood changes, emotional instability, and black-white thinking.

He hides his feelings but admits he has anger issues....

Unlike bipolar sufferers, BPDers (those with strong BPD traits) carry enormous anger inside from early childhood. You don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger because it is always there, right under the skin. Hence, all you have to do is to say or do some trivial thing that TRIGGERS a release of the anger that is always there. This is why such mood changes, which happen in ten seconds, are called "event triggered."

He rarely shows anger overtly.

The vast majority of BPDers show their anger overtly, breaking out into a temper tantrum of verbal abuse whenever their anger is triggered. These folks are said to "act out" when their anger is released.

 

Yet, there is a small portion of BPDers (perhaps 15% or so) who "act in," turning the anger inward instead of outward. Of course, they will still punish their loved ones but, instead of doing it overtly, will do it covertly with passive-aggressive remarks and icy withdrawal. These "acting in" BPDers are typically called "quiet borderlines" or "waif borderlines."

 

Because these quiet BPDers are fairly uncommon, it can be difficult to find much information about them online. I therefore note that A.J. Mahari describes them in an excellent article at http://borderlinepersonality.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/07/borderline-pe-2.html. Similarly, therapist Shari Schreiber describes them at http://www.gettinbetter.com/waif.html. Whereas Mahari emphasizes the icy manner in which they punish their loved ones, Schreiber puts more emphasis on their "I'm a poor little victim" nature.

He was passive-aggressive and liked to make me feel like he doesn't care about me.

As I said, the quiet BPDers will frequently push you away or punish you with icy withdrawal. Hence, if your exH is a high functioning "quiet" BPDer, that is how he would have acted when pushing you away.

He refused to go to counseling.

Although high functioning BPDers usually have a vague awareness that something is wrong with them, they are so fearful of feeling ashamed that their level of self awareness is very low -- to protect their fragile egos from seeing too much of reality. Moreover, the thought distortions produced by strong BPD traits are essentially invisible to the BPDers because they have been thinking that way since early childhood. It therefore is common for the high functioning BPDers to refuse to seek therapy (or to remain in therapy if they ever do try it).

He had many relationships and three short marriages.

If your exH is a BPDer, his inability to trust people and his instability undermines all LTRs. It therefore is highly unlikely he has any close long term friends.

Maybe the counselor told HIM he was bipolar, too.

Perhaps so. If he is a BPDer, there is a good chance he also suffers from bipolar. A recent large scale study found that 25% of BPDers also have bipolar disorder.

He had a very strict mother who neglected and abused him and his brother physically, verbally and emotionally.

That large scale study also found that 70% of the BPDers reported having been abused or abandoned in early childhood.

He acts super-sweet at times and at other times he is cold-hearted and mentally/emotionally abusive.

This splitting behavior is called "black-white thinking" and it is one of the hallmarks of having strong BPD traits. It is most evident when the BPDer categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" -- and, based solely on a minor comment or action, he will recategorize someone from one polar extreme to the other in just ten seconds.

He is obsessed with being right and proper

A BPDer also categorizes himself as "all good" or "all bad" and therefore experiences great shame when recognizing that he made a mistake. Because there is no middle ground between those polar extremes, he thinks of himself as being "all bad" when admitting to minor flaws or mistakes. This may explain, then, why your exH was so focused on being "right."

He withdraws when you show him love but likes it

BPDers crave love and intimacy but are unable to handle it very well. Because a BPDer has a fragile sense of who he really is, he will get a frightening feeling of losing himself in your strong personality during intimacy. This is why a BPDer has a great fear of the "engulfment" or suffocation caused by intimacy. He therefore will push you away, usually by creating an argument over nothing -- or by icy withdrawal. This is why the worst times (of being frozen out or verbally abused) usually happen immediately following a great weekend or intimate evening.

He has commitment problems and acts like he doesn't know what he wants

If he is a BPDer, he doesn't know what he wants because he doesn't know who he is. He therefore lacks a strong ego to ground him and center him. My exW, for example, would get very excited about things but would quickly lose interest in them. No matter how much I spent on a gift for her, she would love it for a week or two and then bury it away in a drawer. For example, I bought her an expensive piano she wanted badly but she played it only five times. Similarly, I spent $11,000 on sewing machines and fabric she dearly wanted -- but she only made one dress, a vest, and a cat collar.

He needs attention and company all the time

Because they have a fragile sense of self, BPDers hate to be alone by themselves. They need someone around at all times to serve as an emotional anchor.

He is prone to depressive moods but pretends that he is at peace with himself.

If your exH is a BPDer, he is filled with self loathing and a feeling of emptiness that often produces depression. Although the BPD traits themselves cannot be touched with medication, doctors often prescribe meds to reduce the associated effects of depression and anxiety.

He thinks that showing love makes him vulnerable (e.g. when I would tell him "You love me" he would get very defensive and start zealously persuading me he that doesn't love me)

In addition to being very fearful of engulfment, BPDers are fearful of abandonment. Hence, if your exH is a BPDer, he may have often pushed you away -- preemptively abandoning you -- when his fear of abandonment grew too strong to tolerate. Yet, after pushing you away, a BPDer usually will try to pull you back into the relationship by being extra caring and loving.

He rocks in his sleep when he is stressed out (but it's nothing sexual; he said he's been doing it since childhood)

If he is a BPDer, his emotional development stopped at about age four, leaving him stuck with the primitive ego defenses of a child. He therefore never learned the more mature ego defenses used by adults, e.g., how to self sooth and manage his emotions by distracting his mind and intellectually challenging his intense feelings (instead of accepting them as truths). The result is that a BPDer tends to exhibit child like behaviors. And, because most of them had terrible childhoods, it is quite common for BPDers to like to create the perfect childhood they never had. For example, many adult BPDers love to collect stuffed animals and other toys. That said, I'm not sure the "rocking" behavior is in that category. It may have more to do with the anxiety apparent in his shaking hands (assuming he doesn't have Parkinsons).

He has a hard time being himself: he has created an image that he tries to stick with and is very uneasy about talking about himself or his life or God forbid, his failures

Because a BPDer doesn't know who he really is, he tends to act like the people he is around at the moment -- so as to fit in and be accepted. This is why a BPDer will be seen to behave very differently around different types of people. And this is why a BPDer needs someone to serve as an emotional anchor -- forcing him to quickly jump into a new relationship as soon as the old one ends.

He constantly has the need to take care of underdogs

Many high functioning BPDers are very caring and generous toward complete strangers, business associates, and casual friends. None of those people pose a threat to his two great fears. Namely, there is no intimacy to cause engulfment and no close relationship that can be abandoned. Lord help those folks, however, if they make the mistake of drawing close to him. This is why it is common to see a high functioning BPDer being caring all day long to a group of strangers and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love him. My exW, for example, often would bake multiple loaves of bread and give them to neighbors throughout our condo building -- and come back home to verbally abuse me.

I think it's possible that he has some mental disorder but since he is extremely smart, he knows how to hide it.

RP, if he has strong traits of one mental disorder such as BPD, he likely has strong traits of one or two other disorders too. I say this because most folks who are diagnosed with one personality disorder like BPD are diagnosed with having two or three disorders. Hence, if you want to have a better understanding of your exH's behavior, I suggest you read not only about BPD traits but also about Avoidant PD traits (which seem similar to some of the traits you've described).

 

If you would like to read more about BPD traits, I suggest you start with the two links provided above for quiet BPDers. If you want a book, the best-selling book on the subject (targeted to the ex-partners and spouses) is Stop Walking on Eggshells. Alternatively, an easy place to start reading about BPD traits on this forum are my three posts in Katt's thread at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3361912#post3361912. If that discussion or my comments here in your thread ring a bell, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, RP.

[Downtown]

I think my wife is BP, based on her rather severe black-n-white classification of others (me included, natch).

WGW, as I explain in my post above, the black-white thinking is one of the hallmarks of having strong BPD traits. Significantly, however, ALL of us tend to shift into this all-or-nothing thinking whenever we experience very intense feelings. When you are very angry, for example, your perception of other peoples' intentions will become distorted and you will do B-W thinking, categorizing everyone as "with me" or "against me." Similarly, when you become infatuated with someone, you will tend to perceive of her as "all good." But such distortions are so commonplace to all of us that we know, when we are angry, to refrain from taking action until we have time to cool off. Likewise, when we are infatuated, we know to wait at least six months to a year before proposing marriage.

 

I mention all this to observe that, bipolar sufferers -- like the rest of us -- also do B-W thinking when they experience intense feelings -- as occurs during depression and mania periods. Yet, most of the time -- i.e., when they are not experiencing depression or mania -- they typically do not do the all-or-nothing thinking. In contrast, BPDers tend to do it all year long because they never learned how to intellectually challenge their intense feelings.

Is another element of BP also 'transference'? Like, by the end, she was classifying me as BP, attributing aspects to my personality which don't exist.

Yes, that is also called "projection." It is one of the primitive ego defenses we all use as children (together with denial, magical thinking, black-white thinking, and blame shifting). Because BPDers are stuck with having to rely heavily on those primitive defenses, they use projection frequently. As with the B-W thinking, bipolar sufferers will use projection frequently when suffering extreme moods but otherwise typically will not rely on it heavily.

[RecordProducer]

Downtown, that was the best post on this board - ever! Thank you so much. You actually made me feel very good because you encompassed all the theories I've had about him for a long time, but I went back and forth with beliving in them. E.g. one day I would believe he's screwed up, but the next day I would believe him that I am screwed up. And I am not saying I am not, but I am aware of my faults and want to prevent my mistakes, while he never did. I don't think he's so worth analyzing, but it's a useful thing to know for the future and for self-analysis.

 

This knowledge is a huge comfort to my ego because now I see that he divorced me because he was running away from his own fears of intimacy and abandonment and not because I stopped being interesting to him - this has always been my theory # 1. Hence the mixed signals, hence the push and pulls, etc. Everything you said made things very clear to me. It also convinced me that our relationship was doomed from the start due to his BPD and I should cherish no hopes that happiness with him would ever be possible. I feel so much better now. Thank you so much for that!

 

I do have two questions for you: why do you think he likes to "collect trash" from the street? (Women who are way below his league and class)

Why does he love my sons so much? He fell in love with them since the day he met them when they were 6 and now they're 13 and living with him. They adore him, too, of course. Is this what my dad said that he's looking for what he didn't have from his mother: unconditional love? He has it from my sons - as you said, he retains childhood behavioral mentality. Any thoughts? Could italso be that he is trying to stay in my life through my sons (even though I have no doubts he adores them)?

[RecordProducer]

Actually my story is sadder then that. One other person on LS knows the details.

 

After H trashed the place and was arrested by police, our daughter was seized by Social Services because of his addictive problems and I have a seven year old Mental Health Record for attempting suicide.

 

They took her six weeks after the incident, long after I had kicked him out/he left the house.

 

That was enough grounds for them to take her and place her in Foster Care.

 

OMG, DOT, somehow I missed a bunch of posts in this thread. This is so horrible, I am so sorry. I hope you gte your daughter back very soon, sweetie. How can they take a child for such reasons??? There is nothing you mentioned that would warrant seizing her and placing her in foster care. I would be so mad if I were you. I am mad for you. :mad:

Is this really all or is there something they thought was going on more than this? There is no judgment or shame from an outsider's viewpoint, but I can imagine why you feel that way. I can see how much you love and miss your daughter - you didn't deserve this. How old is she?

[betterdeal]

I have several problems with PD diagnoses:

 

1. They are seen like a pathogenic disease, whereas they are a description of a type of personality. It sometimes gives a get of jail free card (he can't help it, he has APD); other times it's like a leper's bell (keep away from her, she's BPD). An ironic twist on the black and white thinking notion.
    
   
2. They are normative and culturally bound. Take your average American woman and put her in Riyadh, and she would very likely start to "have" a PD. Whose to say Puritan norms and expectations are universally right? In Gypsy society, fist fighting is still a way to settle disputes. Take a Gypsy man from his society and put him in the "Country" society and he'll have an Anti-social PD. Put him back in Gypsy society, and he'll be normal. Getting divorced in 1970 was more devastating for a woman than it is now. The financial, social, cultural, religious implications being more severe then. Go back the time of Jane Eyre and they were much more severe. Is it a disorder of the woman who becomes distraught and distrusting when left without home, food, money, name when a husband abandons her, or of the society that creates those conditions?
    
   
3. BPD as a classification was added in 1980 when gender roles and social norms were a lot more rigid. Since then, society has changed whilst the classifications have been adjusted in attempt to keep up with what's normal.
    
   
4. The whole PD classification is up for question, with rumours some may be dropped from the DSM (NPD for one) whilst others (including BPD) remain. A quick Google and it appears some suspect the criterion for inclusion is "can it be treated it drugs?" which then takes us into the pharmacracy debate.
    
   
5. The DSM is itself questionable because it is produced in secret with no transparency in the process, reasoning, data, studies - anything - used to derive it. It is antithetical to basic scientific principles in the way it is produced (no-one can review the process) but is seen as being scientific.
    
   
6. To me, it looks more like labelling designed to fit within the psychiatric system rather than assist the individual.
    
   
7. With respect to BDP specifically, the name itself says more about the attitude of those who introduced it than the subject of the label. Emotional Regulation Disorder being a newer alternative is more accurate and more sympathetic, IMO.
    
   

 

Here's an article that covers much of the same ground as I have, and more.

 

From that article, you can see there are 246 different ways to meet the criteria for BDP. It's such a broad-range it makes it an ideal candidate for a "put it in the f*ck-it bucket" diagnosis by clinicians (and laymen) for people they can't handle.

 

Is it any wonder a troubled soul who may do well with the right support avoids exposing his or her mental frailties? Would anyone like the stigma attached to being said to have a mental health problem? Have a Google for BPD and see how much unsympathetic material is out there if you need persuading. I daresay you could probably be diagnosed BPD if interviewed at the right time by the right person, and then it's on your record, permanently.

 

That all said, I am not saying mercurial trouble makers whose capricious whims make life Hell for those close to them don't exist: they do. I've been one. This slightly less sympathetic view is just that: a view. It, like a PD diagnosis is a view from the outside, looking at what's going on on the surface of the person being viewed. However, I feel it is more honest in that it doesn't pretend to be scientific, and therefore carry connotations of measurability or objective truth.

 

How you respond to such people depends on where you are in life, and where you are in respect to them.

 

Just my tuppence worth.

Edited January 27, 2012 by betterdeal

[dreamingoftigers]

I want to respond to a bunch of stuff on this thread, but because I am heading out of town right after court, I will not be in proper possession of a laptop until Tues. (my roommate, and right now she is sleeping).

 

That leaves me with an iPhone and a tablet. iPhones are good for brief posts or posts that I don't mind taking forever on, they are sucky for bolding, quoting etc. And I really want to do a big cut and paste of another post.

 

I also have a tablet available to me but it sucks because of the one finger typing aspect as well. And there are a few glitchy things about it.

 

Back to your questions about my daughter: No, they did not have reasonable grounds for seizing her from me at the time. In fact, it was largely based on one Assessor's opinion that I was harbouring my husband because his things were here and that I was risking exposing her to pedophiliac behaviour. I. Her mind porn addict=child porn addict or pedophile.

 

There has never been one shred of one iota of any indicator that my husband might be involved with anything like that. I would have long turned him in if he was. In one cold second.

 

The initial assessor has a great deal of power in how the case is handled.

 

My current caseworker has bluntly said that she disagrees with the initial assessment entirely and sees no link between my husband's addictive issues and anything inappropriate sexually with his child. Furthermore, we took her to the hospital ourselves when it was suggested and THEY CLEARED HER. As well, she didn't even interview our Day Home provider who has watched Lah for over two years and noticed nothing out of place regarding T.

 

I realize here that no one may believe me because I am just some cleaner married to a porn addict and this other 'lady' is a social worker. But, as soon as the shot hit the fan and we fought the Temporary Guardianship Order, she perjured on the stand at our hearing. I couldn't believe it!

 

I also learned that she has been an Assessor more less than a year and therefore at the end of her review. The last thing she wanted was for this case to go to trial. Most people on our economic and social position 90%+ consent to the Temporary Guardianship Order. They are told that it will make the process shorter and look better to Social Services.

 

1. TGOs are most often extended beyond the six month mark. The average is a year. Once the six month wears out, it is easy as pie for SS to go to court and say that the parent has already consented and therefore extending it is nO issue. Much harder if the parent is already fighting it.

My court date is for July, mediation will be held in May. I have a review docket tomorrow.

 

2. About 20 years ago Social Services in The Province of Alberta was successfully sued for only the second time in history. That verdict allowed children with Autism from accross the country to revive full finding for speech etc. therapy until the age of 18. It is the only province in the country to have this. There are many levels of Social Services to go through and appeal in order to be able to successfully sue. Only a complete nutjob would pursue it. That nutjob was my father. He hates them. He has since become a self-made millionaire, my legal fees are completely covered and I present very

well, with evidence to back up each of my claims.

 

The Assessor did not know this. Her boss has been very good about negotiating some of the terms with my family. Unfortunately for them there is now a paper trail a mile long about my supposed "at risk suicidal tendencies."

 

And yes, IT WAS ALMOST SEVEN YEARS AGO. good lord, even Subway doesn't care if you had a criminal record that long.

 

Here is exactly the reasons listed for seizing her from me:

 

The mother SR has mental health issues which prevent her from providing care for the child.

 

Notice how they don't say how or what. By all accounts, including further in the seizure order, the child suffered no neglect. The claim she used was "emotional injury" even though my daughter was assessed otherwise.

 

She has reported been diagnosed with depression and Borderline Personality Disorder.

 

I love her obvious grammar error on a court document btw. Furthermore I have NEVER been diagnosed with depression and during a reassessment after EMDR therapy, I longer fit the criteria for BPD. She ignored that.

 

SR acknowledged being admitted to hospital four times in the past when she attempted suicide due to the ending of relationships.

 

At the end of ONE relationship I did attempt on four separate occasions. What they don't mention is that 3 of those were in the SAME WEEK, SEVEN YEARS AGO.

 

She is currently experiencing high stress as her current relationship is possibly ending.

 

Good Lord, it would have been less stressful if the dude would have ended it. What bugs me about this statement is twofold: I never talked to her about my stress levels and at this point hadn't seen my husband in about six weeks. I was actually doing good and enjoying life until SS showed up at my door. Secondly, most people would be stressed out about a relationship potentially ending, but this wasn't even our first separation and I hadn't lost my marbles since long before my daughter was born and had gone to therapy since.

 

That's it, that's all they have on me. Aside from the perjury on the stand where the Assessor suggested I was harboring him in my house and the fact that his clothes were in a upstairs closet was enough for that. I had NO idea where he was, what the heck was I supposed to do, FedEx them to Hell?

 

He got arrested, he didn't come back before then. I really didn't feel like going through his damn stuff, and I still don't. It's pretty much how it got left.

 

As got how it feels... Angry? You bet. I would say 'depressed' but it is actually 'grief.' I can get up, function, make money, clean the house and go about my day without breaking down. No problem. But I can feel my nerves grinding. Something inside me has become so hardened that I don't think I will be able to enjoy some things for a very long time. Almost like an actor in a play that believed too strongly in the part and became it. I don't give SS one iota of any kind of feeling aside from concern for my daughter's best interest and determination to get her back. Every other emotion is not just frivolous, it is an obstacle. My adrenal glands must be running close to empty by now.

 

As if the humiliation of having your child taken weren't enough, they test you. They push your buttons. I have seen other parents freak out. They will shift or cancel visits at the last minute. They will delay talking with you. They will push things past deadlines and court dates. They do want to see if you lose it or not.

 

One parent picked up their waiting room phone and threw it into their wall.

 

They get nothing from me. No freak outs. No tears. No anti establishment crud.

 

I allowed myself one and that was it. The week they took her, I told the Assessor that the only difference between her and "that bastard in Sparwood was that he actually returned the kid." google it if you don't know what I am talking about. It won't effect my case.

 

They "lost" a scheduled visit on me in the first week. I explained that I knew that "these things happen and that I would take a seat until they sort something out." they told me it might take days. I said that unwound reschedule my day and wait it out in their office until they could figure something out. I sat. 45 minutes later, they brought my daughter.

 

I bought chocolates for Christmas for my caseworker, the office and the foster parent. I wrote a binder for Lah of everything detailing her and the care she is used to.

 

How does it feels? It sounds dramatic and like bull****, but this is exactly how it feels: it feels like living life without your heart. For four hours a week I am alive, then I disappear and become an object groping around trying to get my heart back. It feels like being outside of your own life. It feels like being rejected by your entire society as a failure. Somewhere in me I have become centered enough not to believe it though. It makes me bitter that I was looked at like all of the people who abused their children or weren't interested in them.

 

As screwed up as my husband is: he never ever screamed at her, was physically agressive with her or verbally aggressive with her. I never would have tolerated that. It happened to me when I was little. This did not need to be a seizure in any way. I could see it being a supervision order with restricted access for my husband.

 

Watching your child beg you not to leave and sobbing her heart out twice a week has changed me in a way that will never undo.

 

Ironic that the suggestion about my mental health is that I will "go off the rails and just go nuts at anytime at the slightest provocation." in the past 7 years I have moved from that to being able to function and have a secure internal center better than anyone else I have met in my age group. I also am able to firmly compartmentalize my feelings for appropriate times where I have seen and expect most people to break down.

Edited January 25, 2017 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[betterdeal]

Jesus wept. What reaction do they expect, exactly, if they steal your child based on whimsy and hearsay, then proceed to be belligerent, unreliable, vexatious malcontents when dealing with you?

 

Bunch of cunts.

 

I'm reminded of Madeleine McCann and how her parents (both well paid doctors) were mistreated by the authorities and press after she was abducted. They have the fortune to be able to fight back within the system.

[Downtown]

I would believe him that I am screwed up.

RP, it is common for the partners of BPDers to feel extremely confused because living with an unstable person is so disorienting. Indeed, a substantial share of those partners run to therapists to find out if they may be going crazy or losing their minds. Of the ten personality disorders, BPD is the only one that is notorious for having that effect on the partners. The folks living with narcissists, for example, generally are miserable and abused but they don't feel like they are going crazy.

...due to his BPD

We will never know whether your exH "has BPD." Only a professional can determine whether his traits are so severe as to meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD. Even if such a determination were made, it is extremely unlikely the therapist would tell your exH -- much less you -- the name of his disorder (for many reasons I've discussed in other threads).

 

This does not imply, however, that you cannot spot strong occurrences of BPD traits. There is nothing subtle about traits such as blame-shifting, cold withdrawal, and passive-aggressive remarks. Hence, you are capable of deciding whether your exH "has strong BPD traits" even though you cannot determine whether he has the full blown disorder. I therefore use the term "BPDer" as shorthand for "a person with strong BPD traits that are above or below the diagnostic level."

I don't think he's so worth analyzing, but it's a useful thing to know for the future and for self-analysis.

Yes, being able to spot the red flags is especially important to caregivers like us. If you lived with a BPDer for many years, you almost certainly are an "excessive caregiver" like I am -- or you would have walked out far sooner. If so, you are at risk of running right into the arms of another man just like the one you left.

 

This is a risk because caregivers like us are so strongly drawn to the wounded birds of society -- those who project a strong sense of vulnerability ("catnip" to us). Our problem is that our desire to be needed (for what we can do) far exceeds our desire to be loved (for the people we already are). We easily become trapped in toxic relationships because, thinking of ourselves as "fixers," we mistakenly believe that we can somehow fix the relationship if we can only figure out what we've been doing wrong. Of course, that fixer attitude is a prescription for disaster when we are in a relationship with a BPDer, who doesn't want to be "fixed" because he's convinced he is a perpetual victim and it is everyone else who needs fixing.

Why do you think he likes to collect women who are way below his league and class?

If he is a BPDer, he is filled with self loathing and shame that he has been carrying since early childhood. Hence, from his perspective, there may not be any such thing as a woman "below his league and class." Further, because he has only a fragile sense of who he really is, his personality likely will change greatly from person to person because he "fits in" by mirroring the personality of the person he is around.

 

This is why BPDers can move effortlessly from one social group to another, fitting in with all of them. And this, together with their great skill at projecting vulnerability, is why BPDers make excellent actors. All the great actors and actresses are loved by the public because they are so gifted in being able to project vulnerability.

Why does he love my sons so much? He fell in love with them since the day he met them when they were 6 and now they're 13 and living with him.

Why wouldn't he? He loves them for the very same reasons you love them. Remember, we all occasionally exhibit all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if we are emotionally healthy. These traits become a problem only when they are so strong as to distort our perceptions of other peoples' intentions and motivations (thereby undermining our LTRs). Hence, BPDers differ from the rest of us only in degree, not in kind. Because BPDers have the full set of human emotions, they love their children. And they usually love young step-children too.

 

That said, if your exH is a BPDer, he likely will have great difficulty handling the BPD-like behavior that your sons will exhibit in the mid- and late-teens, at which time they will be flooded with hormones and trying to establish independence from their parents. That obnoxious behavior (perfectly normal for teens) is difficult enough for nonBPD parents to handle. It is even harder, of course, when a parent's perception of the children's intentions is distorted by his strong BPD traits.

[Downtown]

Betterdeal, I've always found your posts insightful and have generally agreed with your comments, as I do with your observations about BPD and other PDs above. I therefore will comment on only a few of your observations.

I have several problems with PD diagnoses:

So do I. But nobody in this thread is claiming to be capable of rendering a diagnosis. Only a professional can do that. This does not imply, however, that RP is incapable of spotting strong occurrences of BPD traits in a man she lived with for many years. There is nothing subtle about traits such as cold withdrawal, blame-shifting, inability to trust, and verbal abuse. Indeed, RP would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to spot such destructive behavioral traits. Hence, there is a world of difference between spotting BPD traits and determining whether they are so severe as to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for "having BPD."

The whole PD classification is up for question, with rumours some may be dropped from the DSM (NPD for one) whilst others (including BPD) remain.

It's now gone far beyond the rumor stage. The APA plans on releasing DSM5 in May of next year. Both BPD and NPD are being retained but four other PDs are being downgraded to "traits," i.e., behavioral symptoms. Betterdeal, you can keep track of the latest changes to the evolving manual at http://www.dsm5.org/Pages/Default.aspx.

PDs are seen like a pathogenic disease, whereas they are a description of a type of personality.

I agree. The general public has been misled by the term "disorder" into believing that BPD traits are something -- like a disease -- that you either have or don't have. This confusion arises because, in every field of the medical sciences, a "diagnosis" is the act of looking at symptoms and identifying the disease causing them. This is not true, however, for the diagnosis of PDs in psychiatry. There are no known diseases to diagnose.

 

BPD traits are not a disease but, rather, only a set of symptoms. Like body aches and irritability, BPD traits are symptoms that everybody occasionally has to varying degrees. BPDers therefore differ from the rest of us only in degree, not in kind. This is why it is so easy for all of us to spot strong occurrences of these traits. We all know exactly what the traits feel like on the inside and look like from the outside.

 

And this is why the PD "diagnostic" methodology adopted in 1980 by the APA has been a great embarrassment to the psychiatric community for over three decades. Even when it was adopted (as a concession to the courts and insurance companies), the APA knew it made no sense to adopt a binary methodology (e.g., "0 or 1" and "yes or no") for diagnosing PD symptoms because, like all other human traits, everybody has them. They differ by degree from person to person.

 

This is why, in 2013, the new diagnostic manual will replace that flawed binary methodology with a graduated approach that evaluates the degree to which a client has PD traits. Yet, until that new approach is in place, psychologists are stuck with the ludicrous methodology that says clients meeting 100% of the diagnostic criteria "have the disorder" but those meeting 95% of the same criteria "have no disorder." It's the equivalent of saying that everyone over 280 pounds is "fat" and everyone below that weight is "skinny."

[betterdeal]

Thanks for the reply, Downtown, and, likewise, I've always enjoyed your considered, well researched posts. I did write out a longer response, but I will save that for now. I need some time to consider it.

[RecordProducer]

RP, it is common for the partners of BPDers to feel extremely confused because living with an unstable person is so disorienting. Indeed, a substantial share of those partners run to therapists to find out if they may be going crazy or losing their minds. Of the ten personality disorders, BPD is the only one that is notorious for having that effect on the partners. [

As I said, you saved me from the never-ending agony and I am so thankful for that. If you feel down these days, just tell yourself, "I made one woman happy, so I am a valuable gift on this earth." Now, when my thoughts start going toward the ex, instead of, like before, starting to get angry or fantasizing about him coming back or whatever, I just remember that he's defective and he could never change or offer any woman anything good. I remember that things were horrible with him and that's how they would be if we were together again; and that's how they will be with any woman he may have in his life. So, I brush the thoughts off immediately.

 

Even if I keep thinking about him, the underlying feeling now is that he sucks and I am lucky to be out of his life - to put it simple. I remind myself that I got something from that marriage (the green card, money, a daddy for my sons, the possibility to finish law school due to his financial and baby-sitting help, my mom's green card, and most of all, invaluable experience); even though I lost a lot down the road. But the fact that I am lonely and without a partner in my mid-30s is not his fault - and that is the main thing that makes me miserable.

 

I find myself envying his life (he's got money, a young whore to screw, my sons, his airplane, etc.) and then I tell myself that he's still miserable despite of all those things. And then I find myself torn between being envious and being happy about the thought that he's miserable anyway - and it makes me feel bad that I wish misery upon him. So, I just tell myself: okay, let's neutralize these two feelings: I'll find someone and be happy, and that can't be my ex because he can't make anyone happy. The envy thing probably comes from the fact that if he could be happy with another woman, then he could have been happy with me and made me happy. Of course, then I have to conclude that he can't be happy with anyone in oder to calm my ego (and heart) down. Then I feel like I am an evil person instead of wishing him a happy life. In fact, I do wish him to be happy but only after I find happiness - it's so selfish and disgusting, but me saying "Oh, I wish him all the happiness in the world" would be a gruesome lie to myself. And I don't want to lie to myself.

 

Only a professional can determine whether his traits are so severe as to meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD.

Well, this is not a medical diagnosis, so a doctor is not necessary. I recognize his traits and feelings behind your explanations and that's enough for me to figure him out as much as it's possible to figure people with BPD out. I am very grateful to you because in the past I tried to figure him out so I could know how to play his game and win him back. After your posts, I realize that I'd been betting - not on the wrong cards - but in the wrong casino; this casino won't pay you even if you win; you can only keep losing your money and time.

 

If you lived with a BPDer for many years, you almost certainly are an "excessive caregiver" like I am -- or you would have walked out far sooner. If so, you are at risk of running right into the arms of another man just like the one you left.

Actually, I am not the caregiver type. I like to be admired and put on a pedestal - and I do the same for my partners; that's why I want them to be strong and worth my admiration in every aspect. I don't like wounded birds (although I do take real wounded birds home and feed animals); I like a complete package, as close to perfection as possible. I want my partner to take care of me. And he fit in that profile because he's a very successful man who makes you feel like he'll always be there for you, he'll help you and he'll be reliable. He pretends that he is very stable and mature and always willing to help. He does help people a lot. And he never asks anyone for anything. He appears very strong on the outside. And he is, in fact, an alpha male. He also had his own factory for 25 years. People like him a lot and he can sell you whatever he wants to sell you. Both literally and metaphorically.

 

Of course, that fixer attitude is a prescription for disaster when we are in a relationship with a BPDer, who doesn't want to be "fixed" because he's convinced he is a perpetual victim and it is everyone else who needs fixing.

Yes, once I am in a toxic relationship, I want to fix my partner and myself, my marriage and the world (I've had two marriages). I became a lawyer because I want to fix people's problems. People call me about one legal issue and I ask them about everything and give them advice on everything that might be wrong in their lives (within the legal scope, though). Of course, this doesn't mean your theory of caregiving personality is wrong; it's just that I was in that relationship, too, and I have my own issues.

 

By the way, we lived together for only 3 years, but he started telling me after a couple months that we should split. We also kept seeing each other on and off for another two years after the separation. His style is to run away and jump from one relationship onto another without trying to fix anything. His mother is like that, too. She kept collecting much younger losers and bringing them home until they would disappoint her - then she would quickly and brutally dispose of them and move onto the next loser. She told me herself she's never been in love and she can't be alone. Ironically, she is alone now due to her character, the men she was choosing, and most of all, the way she disposed of them as soon as things weren't her way. She visited a psychologist (the same one from my first post!) who told her she would never be happy with anyone because she's too giving - in other words, she's too good. She is a giver when it comes to helping people, but she's you three-strikes-you're-out type of person. And people like that can't sustain relationships because they build boundaries instead of connections with their partners.

 

If he is a BPDer, he is filled with self loathing and shame that he has been carrying since early childhood. Hence, from his perspective, there may not be any such thing as a woman "below his league and class."

Wow, that's such a great characterization!

 

Further, because he has only a fragile sense of who he really is, his personality likely will change greatly from person to person because he "fits in" by mirroring the personality of the person he is around.

Interestingly, his personality doesn't change at all from one person to another. I am more prone to changing according to the role I have to play in different life situations, places or around different people. But I see it as flexibility rather than some kind of disorder. I am generally the same with all people who become close to me; I am the same in any professional circle; but I am differ around free-spirited people vs. uptight folks. But my ex is always the same: charming and generous but uptight (this is his outside image).

 

This is why BPDers can move effortlessly from one social group to another, fitting in with all of them.

His outside image is likeable to all groups of people because he appears as a reliable, generous, kind, charming, traditional person who loves people, who has a great life, who is happy with himself, always willing to help, and doesn't have any issues or problems in his life. His farce, if taken at face value, is what we all want to be.

 

In reality, he is a living proof that 'fake it 'till you make it' doesn't work with inner demons. He never transcended the feeling of emptiness and the anger that pervade his soul. But, who knows, maybe he's better off faking happiness. In any case, it's probably his coping mechanism.

 

And this, together with their great skill at projecting vulnerability, is why BPDers make excellent actors.

As I said, he projects strength and inner peace, never vulnerabilty. He'll do anything to keep his cards hidden and take your cards in order to avoid being vulnerable. But, this makes sense to me, because it's consistent with the fear of intimacy and abandonment in people with introverted BPD (he is not introverted as a person but he hides his emotional issues). He'll never admit he was wrong about anything or that he feels bad about something. He has to always show that he's a winner and nothing can defeat him or bring him down in any way. Any thoughts on this, Downtown?

 

Remember, we all occasionally exhibit all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if we are emotionally healthy.

What are the 9 traits?

 

BPDers differ from the rest of us only in degree, not in kind.

Hm.. This has been my theory for many years, that a lot of the mental illness symptoms are just a matter of degree. E.g. extreme jealousy to the point where the person kills his ex and himself is just a highly exaggerated healthy feeling (being hurt when dumped). But seeing aliens in your soup is probably not.

 

That obnoxious behavior (perfectly normal for teens) is difficult enough for nonBPD parents to handle.

Maybe I should ask my teens for advice on this since they know everything. Surprisingly, they are not obnoxious with him or his family, only with me and my mom.

 

Downtown, are you still married to the woman with BPD? If not, how did it end? Do you have any children? I assume you're not a professional counselor because those usually don't bother to post helpful stuff (or maybe it's fear of professional liability?), but you certainly are a sage.

[Downtown]

The envy thing probably comes from the fact that if he could be happy with another woman, then he could have been happy with me and made me happy.

RP, if he is a high functioning BPDer -- as you suspect -- he is capable of being wildly happy with his new squeeze as long as the infatuation period lasts (typically 3 to 6 months). The infatuation convinces him that she is so perfect that she must be his "soul mate" -- which is exactly how he felt about you for six months.

 

More important, the infatuation holds his two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at bay, with the result that she can say or do pretty much anything for a few months without triggering the enormous anger he carries inside. Yet, as soon as the infatuation evaporates, those fears will return and he will start punishing her -- as he did you -- with periods of cold withdrawal and passive aggressive remarks.

After your posts, I realize that I'd been betting - not on the wrong cards - but in the wrong casino; this casino won't pay you even if you win.

What a wonderful analogy! Sadly, this casino doesn't pay him anything either. Such toxic marriages are a lose-lose scenario because both parties are harmed.

Actually, I am not the caregiver type.

Really?

Yes, once I am in a toxic relationship, I want to fix my partner and myself, my marriage and the world (I've had two marriages). I became a lawyer because I want to fix people's problems.

Perhaps I am mistaken, RP, but you sure sound like a caregiving "fixer" to me. In my case, I likely grew up too fast, becoming the "little fixer" in the family. Because my dad was alcoholic, my mother relied too heavily on me at a young age for emotional support, expecting me to be the "little man" of the family.

People call me about one legal issue and I ask them about everything and give them advice on everything that might be wrong in their lives....

I'm the same way. I want to know about their kids and siblings and how everyone is doing in life. I suspect that you, like me, have a non-threatening personality that allows you to get away with asking complete strangers many personal questions -- that would sound intrusive if they came from anyone else. They can sense that you are genuinely concerned, not just "nosey." My sister, an accountant, is the same way. Her clients will tell her personal things that they've never told anyone about before.

His style is to run away and jump from one relationship onto another without trying to fix anything.

That characteristic is common to both narcissists and BPDers. Although they end up in a series of painful, toxic relationships, they nonetheless persist in jumping quickly into a new one because they hate being alone. The narcissists desperately need "narcissistic supply," i.e., someone to continually be validating their false self image of being "the great man." The BPDers, being unstable, desperately need someone to serve as an emotional anchor and to validate their false self image of being "the victim." Given your description of your exH, it sounds like he also has strong traits of narcissism -- which is fairly common because BPD and Narcissistic PD overlap in several important respects. The primary difference is that, whereas BPDers are emotionally unstable, narcissists are not.

His mother is like that, too.

Well, if your exH is a BPDer, you know which side of the family it likely came from. BPD traits are believed to be largely genetic, while also having a strong environmental component (e.g., childhood abuse or abandonment).

He has to always show that he's a winner and nothing can defeat him or bring him down in any way. Any thoughts on this, Downtown?

BPDers typically are loath to admit to a mistake or having a flaw. They are filled with self loathing and shame. Hence, as I noted earlier, the last thing a BPDer wants to find is one more thing to add to the long list of things he hates about himself. Narcissists are that way too.

What are the 9 traits?

The DSM-IV list of 9 BPD traits is shown at http://www.palace.net/llama/psych/bpd.html#dsmiv. For a description of them on this forum, I suggest you take a look at my posts in Rebel's thread at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3398735#post3398735.

Surprisingly, they are not obnoxious with him or his family, only with me and my mom.

But, then, they are only 13 years old. Teen behavior usually is at its worst in the mid-teens and late teens. Time will tell.

Downtown, are you still married to the woman with BPD? If not, how did it end?

It ended the way most long-term BPDer relationships end. When the nonBPD partner has strong personal boundaries, the relationship usually ends within 18 months. The partner enjoys the heavenly 6 month infatuation period and then is willing to spend up to an additional 12 months trying to restore the wonderful person who had been seen at the beginning. Then she walks.

 

On the other hand, when the partner has weak personal boundaries like me, he tries to hang on forever. For people like me, the notion of walking away from a sick loved one is anathema. We are willing to keep "helping" the sick loved one even when it is to our great detriment -- and when we really aren't helping at all. What happens, then, is that the BPDers typically leave us after about 12 to 15 years.

 

As the years go by, the BPDer grows increasingly resentful of our inability to make her happy -- and, as she sees her body aging, she becomes increasingly fearful of abandonment. Indeed, if her fear of abandonment is strong enough, she may preemptively abandon her spouse after only a few years -- so as to put an end to her painful fear of being abandoned. In my case, my exW left me after 15 years.

 

By "left me," I mean she called the police and had me arrested on a bogus charge of "brutalizing" her. Because it was early on a Saturday morning when she threw a temper tantrum and called the police, I was in jail for nearly three days before I had an opportunity to go before a judge. During that time, my exW easily obtained a restraining order that prevented me from coming within 100 feet of my own home for 18 months -- the length of time it takes to get a divorce here in my State.

 

Although I have no biological children, I dearly love the five children my exW had when we were married (the youngest was 16 at that time). I helped put two of them through college and provided them with three cars. Yet, as usually happens with stepkids, all five stopped speaking to me when their mother had me arrested and thrown out of my home.

 

Two years later, however, my oldest stepdaughter reconnected with me because she realized how badly her three kids (my grandkids) missed me. Indeed, she told me that I am the only grandparent they really have because the four biological grandparents (including my exW) are too unstable to enjoy being around the grandkids for very long. Hence, I still have that stepdaughter and the three grandkids -- in addition to my adult foster son whom I had started taking care of long before getting married. Finally, RP, you are correct that I am not a therapist.

[RecordProducer]

Sadly, this casino doesn't pay him anything either. Such toxic marriages are a lose-lose scenario because both parties are harmed.

True. People who can't form emotional connections make me sick. To me that's the most important thing in the world.

 

I suspect that you, like me, have a non-threatening personality that allows you to get away with asking complete strangers many personal questions -- that would sound intrusive if they came from anyone else. They can sense that you are genuinely concerned, not just "nosey."

Yes! But I am curious, too!

That characteristic is common to both narcissists and BPDers. Although they end up in a series of painful, toxic relationships, they nonetheless persist in jumping quickly into a new one because they hate being alone. The narcissists desperately need "narcissistic supply," i.e., someone to continually be validating their false self image of being "the great man." The BPDers, being unstable, desperately need someone to serve as an emotional anchor and to validate their false self image of being "the victim." Given your description of your exH, it sounds like he also has strong traits of narcissism -- which is fairly common because BPD and Narcissistic PD overlap in several important respects. The primary difference is that, whereas BPDers are emotionally unstable, narcissists are not.

He is unstable on the inside but you'd have toknow him really well tofigure it out. Otherwise, he seems totally stable.He does have most of the NPD symptoms and alsothe control freak symptoms. But he hides the clingy control-freak symptoms. He finds ways around to control you. And he is very good at it.

 

Yes, he does need people all the time to validate how great he is- but never that he's the victim. Or at least, he doesn't whine. But, yes, he does present his marriages as 'look how bad my exes were.' I know he's told everyone that I am had a drinking problem, but I am sure he skipped all of his big problems, including taking steroids and being impotent throughout our entire marriage (3 yrs).

 

Indeed, if her fear of abandonment is strong enough, she may preemptively abandon her spouse after only a few years -- so as to put an end to her painful fear of being abandoned.

You know, I always had a feeling that he didn't want to be happy. I mean, he didn't want to have a happy marriage. There was something in him that pushed him to sabotage and destroy any love that may last longer than a couple years. Only superficial connections seem to make him happy. He is not particularly close to his parents, although he thinks he is. The only real, good friend that he has lives far away and he sees him twice a year at most, for a day or two. And this guy is an introverted person who adores the ground my ex walks on. That friend did live in the same state though, but moved to FL later for his job.

 

my adult foster son whom I had started taking care of long before getting married.

You sound like a real sweetheart. Thanks so much for posting.

[betterdeal]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[RecordProducer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Betterdeal, I don't know if my ex has BPD or any other officially recognized disorder, but what Downtown is describing from the psychological viewpoint makes sense. Now I know why my ex did and said certain things and yes, it makes me feel better because (1) I realize there was nothing more I could've done and he could never have any relationship work. He is a defective person and I don't care if his defect is called BPD or a tomato. I don't need to work on him anymore - au contraire, I intend to never go back to working on his case. (2) I feel better because I've sensed all these things about him for a long time but there were gaps in my conclusions. My knowledge of his behavior is the truth and I had my inutitive conclusions about the inner works behind that behavior. Downtown only built the bridge between his beahvior and my conclusions. He, in fact, didn't tell me anything that I didn't already know. But as I said, there were gaps on which I blindly and dangerously relied in hope that he would change someday and become a normal person. I believed my ex when he was pulling me in and I believed him when he was pushing me away - so I ended up not knowing which one was true. This man is severely f*cked up and I was a fool forever giving him the time of the day.

[Downtown]

I always had a feeling that he didn't want to be happy. I mean, he didn't want to have a happy marriage. There was something in him that pushed him to sabotage and destroy any love that may last longer than a couple years. Only superficial connections seem to make him happy.

RP, if he has strong BPD traits, the simplest explanation I've seen for that unhappiness (and the resulting perverse need to sabotage) is that his two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. Hence, as you back away from one fear (to avoid triggering his anger) you are necessarily drawing closer to the other fear. Sadly, there is no Goldilocks position in the middle where you can safely avoid triggering one fear or the other. After searching for that non-threatening midpoint solution for 15 years, I am firmly convinced that -- if it exists at all -- it is a knife edge that is continually shifting. The result is that you have only two choices: hurting him by backing off to give him breathing space (i.e., "abandoning" him) or hurting him by drawing close and making him feel like he is losing his identity in your strong personality.

 

An alternative explanation -- which I also find persuasive but more difficult to understand -- is that BPDers do not realize they are in love unless they are pining for a person who is just out of reach -- as they did in early childhood with their emotionally unavailable mothers. Hence, when you were within his reach (i.e., showing him mature and abundant love), he lost touch with the love he had for you. Yet, after pushing you away, he would again become aware of his love for you when trying to pull you back into the relationship. This would help explain, then, his need for "superficial" relationships -- as would the engulfment explanation mentioned above.

Betterdeal's link to "Confirmation Bias" article.

Betterdeal, I agree that we are always at risk of using new-found knowledge selectively to support a misguided notion we are clinging to. I also face the risk -- after being badly burned by a BPDer -- of mistakenly seeing "BPD" everywhere I look.

 

Although I've learned a great deal about BPD traits, that only means I've acquired a protective tool that is the equivalent of a good hammer. The risk of having a great hammer, of course, is that everything can start looking like a nail. This is why I encourage folks in toxic relationships to read about BPD traits and decide, for themselves, if that is what they are seeing. I also encourage them to seek a professional opinion from a clinical psychologist (who is not treating their partners).

[RecordProducer]

RP, if he has strong BPD traits, the simplest explanation I've seen for that unhappiness (and the resulting perverse need to sabotage) is that his two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- lie at the opposite ends of the very same spectrum. Hence, as you back away from one fear (to avoid triggering his anger) you are necessarily drawing closer to the other fear. Sadly, there is no Goldilocks position in the middle where you can safely avoid triggering one fear or the other. After searching for that non-threatening midpoint solution for 15 years, I am firmly convinced that -- if it exists at all -- it is a knife edge that is continually shifting. The result is that you have only two choices: hurting him by backing off to give him breathing space (i.e., "abandoning" him) or hurting him by drawing close and making him feel like he is losing his identity in your strong personality.

Exactly! This explains my "symptom": He withdraws when you show him love and he withdraws even more when you express resentment toward him.

 

It's like you're damned if you do,and you're damned if you don't.

 

An alternative explanation -- which I also find persuasive but more difficult to understand -- is that BPDers do not realize they are in love unless they are pining for a person who is just out of reach -- as they did in early childhood with their emotionally unavailable mothers.

Yes, OMG, yes! Good interpretation!

Hence, when you were within his reach (i.e., showing him mature and abundant love), he lost touch with the love he had for you. Yet, after pushing you away, he would again become aware of his love for you when trying to pull you back into the relationship.

Yup! Edited January 29, 2012 by RecordProducer

[worldgonewrong]

RecordProducer- your portrayal of your ex about 3 posts back REALLY resonated with me. I about fell on the floor with recognition of these things through my own stbxw. It's like I was doing a checklist as I read through them, ticking them off (yes, yes, yes). Just...wow.

 

This has been a great, educational thread, btw.

I've learned SO much from this dialogue, even if I haven't participated hardly ever, but thank you all.

[dreamingoftigers]

Exactly! This explains my "symptom": He withdraws when you show him love and he withdraws even more when you express resentment toward him.

 

It's like you're damned if you do,and you're damned if you don't.

 

Yes, OMG, yes! Good interpretation!

Yup!

 

Unfortunately, I also have those types of traits BUT they have lessened a lot since EMDR therapy.

 

Plus my husband's issues compound it. When he is away, at first it is like a major withdrawal and the works crashing right down. I won't get out of bed or eat for a few days. I will beg him to come back to resolve some of the pain. It is like waves of emotional flooding.

 

Before EMDR, under the same circumstances, I would actually become impulsively suicidal. Now with only 1/3 of my EMDR therapy completed, I become compulsively sexual. Of course, no one, aside from my H knows this. It has almost created huge problems in my life and I look forward to having more EMDR to be able to process those difficult emotions.

 

My husband has issues regarding shame and attachment as well. You see, people have been traumatized by being to close to someone as well as being abandoned. It goes back and forth. We are scared to be left alone and abandoned, yet we have been abandoned before (often many times) or alternated between being abandoned and being smothered and shamed by our caregivers. My father for instance made sure to let me know in every way that I would never be able to make an intelligent decision for myself: any choice I ever made was a direct reflection on him so I was either labelled an idiot or the choice was simply because 'he must have influenced it in some way' so he deserved the credit, which didn't happen often anyways. Any life plans I ever had, from running a business to where I wanted to get married: those choices were doomed to failure and wrong.

 

So in essence, us BPDers long for someone close that we can trust, but because we were so traumatized we can never believe that anyone would ever truly love us because we were so trained to believe that we were defective or that somehow there is something so wrong with us that we are doing those we live a favor by pushing them away, letting them know that if they stay too close, we will only taint them, hurt them. Other times that fear stops us from feeling close to others because we know that we will be shamed and therefore reminded of how inadequate we are.

 

We are damned if we do and damned if we don't.

 

It also feels like we have no control over our own emotional faculties. We can be fine 95% of the time and then our partner will say: "I don't want to hsve lunch at our usual spot, let's try something new."

 

All of a sudden, we are in a tailspin: what does this mean? Is he sick of our spot? Is he throwing away a piece of our history? Is he trying to leave again? What's the message here?

 

We grew up in places where randomness was a warning sign of an insult, beating or worse. Our partner's basic independence is as terrifying as their kindness.

 

It is just a tough for the person in the mental prison as outside it. The only difference is that you can leave. Since EMDR it has been like day and night. And I am only 1/3 done.

 

With BPD, you are so on edge that anything can trigger a breakdown. If unwound smack my finger, it would often cause me to tear up. Physical pain was much more sensitive. It was often like walking around feeling like someone died 24/7. The grief I lived through back then was actually more intense then the grief that I have felt when my daughter was taken.

 

That is not to say that I do not love my daughter! On the contrary! I couldn't feel the love and joy with my daughter when I felt like I was in that grief-state. I can and do love her so much better.

 

I have come to know, and been blessed with the knowledge that how much we loved someone need not be coupled with grief that is as intense as love.

 

So there is hope for us, but it is intense and specialized therapy.

[betterdeal]

...one definition of the

so

-called "borderline personality disorder" is "the normal response of a sensitive person to an invalidating environment" (2)

 

From http://eqi.org/invalid.htm