verhrzn Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I agree with Emilia... being fat is a choice. There are a few tiny percent that this might not be true for, but by and large it's true. If someone is overweight or obese, I can be about 99% certain they don't even put half as much effort into their diet or exercise as I do. Except you have no way of knowing that! You are not that person's doctor (so have no idea of their health), you are not that person's dietitian or cook (so have no idea what that person is eating), you are not that person's trainer or instructor (and so have no idea if/how they're exercising.) All you are is some jerk on the street glancing at a person and judging their ENTIRE life by how they look. I am fat, and I know for a fact I work out and eat better than nearly all of my friends, and yet they are almost all thinner or look in better shape than I do. You are judging people's characters, their entire lifestyle, on nothing but a misinformed glance. Link to post Share on other sites
FitChick Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I'm a bit tired of the thyroid excuse. Before and after I was treated for hypothyroidism, when I ate too much and exercised too little, I gained weight. When I cut my calories and exercised more, I lost weight. So if you think you have a thyroid problem you need to get it sorted out. It can take months to find the right dose so you have to be patient. Same with women who have PCOS. They need to get their hormones balanced and then they will be able to lose the weight. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Except you have no way of knowing that! You are not that person's doctor (so have no idea of their health), you are not that person's dietitian or cook (so have no idea what that person is eating), you are not that person's trainer or instructor (and so have no idea if/how they're exercising.) All you are is some jerk on the street glancing at a person and judging their ENTIRE life by how they look. I am fat, and I know for a fact I work out and eat better than nearly all of my friends, and yet they are almost all thinner or look in better shape than I do. You are judging people's characters, their entire lifestyle, on nothing but a misinformed glance. He's still not wrong about it being a choice. I'm also fuzzy on the idea that calories in being less than calories out doesn't lead to weight loss. I know it's not that simple for a small percentage of people, but for the vast majority of us, I've been unable to find information suggesting it isn't as simple as that. Obviously the entire effort of managing your life well enough to manage your eating is far more of a challenge, but the basics of getting the job done seem mostly the same for us all. Edited January 31, 2012 by EnigmaticClarity Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 He's still not wrong about it being a choice. I'm also fuzzy on the idea that calories in being less than calories out doesn't lead to weight loss. I know it's not that simple for a small percentage of people, but for the vast majority of us, I've been unable to find information suggesting it isn't as simple as that. Obviously the entire effort of managing your life well enough to manage your eating is far more of a challenge, but the basics of getting the job done seem mostly the same for us all. "Calories in, calories out" doesn't account for thousands of different variables, and also doesn't take into account the TYPE of calorie. Some calories are better and more powerful than others, and a lack of particular calories can lead to even worse problems than obesity. Check out that news story of the girl who ate nothing but chicken nuggets her entire life. She's thin.... but doctors have told if she doesn't change her diet immediately, she'll die. Even if she does change her diet, she's going to have major health problems for life. If it was as easy as "calories in, calories out" that's what doctors would prescribe. There wouldn't be hundreds-thousands-of academic studies and articles still exploring the causes of obesity. Here are just a few of the books and studies demonstrating that losing weight is anything but easy if you are not already naturally inclined to lose weight: Why You Got Fat: But Don't You Know Fat Is Unhealthy? http://kateharding.net/faq/but-dont-you-realize-fat-is-unhealthy/ That second blog is worth reading in great detail. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) "Calories in, calories out" doesn't account for thousands of different variables, and also doesn't take into account the TYPE of calorie. Some calories are better and more powerful than others, and a lack of particular calories can lead to even worse problems than obesity. Check out that news story of the girl who ate nothing but chicken nuggets her entire life. She's thin.... but doctors have told if she doesn't change her diet immediately, she'll die. Even if she does change her diet, she's going to have major health problems for life. If it was as easy as "calories in, calories out" that's what doctors would prescribe. There wouldn't be hundreds-thousands-of academic studies and articles still exploring the causes of obesity. Here are just a few of the books and studies demonstrating that losing weight is anything but easy if you are not already naturally inclined to lose weight: Why You Got Fat: But Don't You Know Fat Is Unhealthy? http://kateharding.net/faq/but-dont-you-realize-fat-is-unhealthy/ That second blog is worth reading in great detail. CHICKEN NUGGETS ALL DAY? Bringing up unbalanced outliers is dodging the issue. If you (I mean that hypothetically--I'm not dogging on you specifically, just people in general who insist it's not a matter of will) must be all doom-and-gloom about it, assume right now, today, you're the absolute worst person in the world at losing weight. Cursed at birth. Fine--then eat only vegetables. Weigh them and total up the calories--make sure you eat less of them than your base metabolic rate plus whatever activities you engage in. Mix em up, experiment, eat whatever tastes best. It works, for almost everyone--unless something's metabolically wrong. THEN you see your doctor. Never met anyone who complained about weight who was actually doing what it takes to get the job done. We're all faced with different obstacles, yes--but the same approach works for us all. Do it, or don't--the choice is ours. For anyone who it's metabolically more difficult for--I'm sorry, but you can do it, and you know you can. And if you don't believe you can--that's your problem. Anyone reading this who doesn't know immediately their base metabolic rate, how much they burn via activity, and how much they're taking in with every single meal yet still want to lose weight knows exactly why they're not losing--you're choosing to not manage your eating. It's simple to understand, yet quite an effort to achieve. Edited January 31, 2012 by EnigmaticClarity Link to post Share on other sites
azsinglegal Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Lipozene is the answer. No work, just a pill. Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 If you (I mean that hypothetically--I'm not dogging on you specifically, just people in general who insist it's not a matter of will) must be all doom-and-gloom about it, assume right now, today, you're the absolute worst person in the world at losing weight. Cursed at birth. Fine--then eat only vegetables. Weigh them and total up the calories--make sure you eat less of them than your base metabolic rate plus whatever activities you engage in. Mix em up, experiment, eat whatever tastes best. It works, for almost everyone--unless something's metabolically wrong. THEN you see your doctor. Never met anyone who complained about weight who was actually doing what it takes to get the job done. We're all faced with different obstacles, yes--but the same approach works for us all. Do it, or don't--the choice is ours. For anyone who it's metabolically more difficult for--I'm sorry, but you can do it, and you know you can. And if you don't believe you can--that's your problem. Anyone reading this who doesn't know immediately their base metabolic rate, how much they burn via activity, and how much they're taking in with every single meal yet still want to lose weight knows exactly why they're not losing--you're choosing to not manage your eating. It's simple to understand, yet quite an effort to achieve. Not to get too personal, but are you a doctor, academic who specializes in weight studies, or dietitian? Look at my links. The "calories in, calories out" has been disrupted to death. "This Is Why You're Fat." "Rethinking Thin." What you're advocating is the exact OPPOSITE of what the research says. "The same approach works for us all" has been labeled a myth for years. There are hundreds of studies out there that follow what people eat and how they exercise down to an exact science (literally), and it still doesn't support what you say. People still gain weight. People still stay fat. Or if they lose weight, they inevitably gain it back in 5 years. Go to nerdfitness.com, which has become my new health forum. It is crammed with people who eat right, exercise in a dedicated way, and yet don't lose weight. They plateau. They GAIN. You go onto that forum and tell everyone it's "calories in, calories out." Tell that to people who have dedicated months, even years to a strict diet and exercise regiment. Talk to people who have actually researched and lived it, and then try to bring out the "well everyone loses weight the same." Your argument is so lacking in evidence and research it's a little absurd. Link to post Share on other sites
FitChick Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 There are hundreds of studies out there that follow what people eat and how they exercise down to an exact science (literally) Far from an exact science. Those studies constantly contradict each other. Everyone has to find what works for them. In your case, I think your body is hanging onto weight because of your new intense exercise routine coupled with far fewer calories than you normally eat. That should pass with time, as others have mentioned. Drinking more water allows your body to release the bloat as well. The reason people regain dieted weight is because they gradually go back to their old, bad habits. Link to post Share on other sites
Disenchantedly Yours Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 While I do think that obesity is an issue today, I also don't think the ideals of "thinness" we see in the media is healthy either. I take a lot of classes at the gym and I see a lot of women there regularly who are dedicated to working out who aren't stick thin. If you passed them on the street, you might not even know they worked out regularly. But they do. I also have friends (as someone else mentioned) that are thin and appear in shape but never set foot in a gym and don't eve always eat right. So how much of this battle is really about "being healthy" vs just being thin, I don't know. I go to the gym a lot and eat right and my weight has always been a battle. I have girlfriends that never go work out and they can eat anything. They can't keep up with me exercise wise but I bet a lot of men that saw them on the street vs (I am not fat at all, but I don't look like someone you might think goes to the gym either) me they would think they were the healthier ones. When you see people in the extremes, such as too skinny or overly obese, we all can tell that's unhealthy. But there are alot of people in the middle that aren' t stick thin that others might be healthy and there are alot of skinny people that aren't healthy at all either. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Your argument is so lacking in evidence and research it's a little absurd. Perhaps. Keep in mind the physical law that describes the conservation of energy--energy can neither be created nor destroyed. When a person with "bad fat cells" starts to eat less calories than they burn, what happens to them? Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Perhaps. Keep in mind the physical law that describes the conservation of energy--energy can neither be created nor destroyed. When a person with "bad fat cells" starts to eat less calories than they burn, what happens to them? Potentially nothing. I've cut down nearly 1000 calories and haven't lost a single pound. People on the forum I mentioned have actually suggested I'm not eating enough. The rule of thumb is that you should be eating 1g protein to maintain one pound of lean muscle mass. Additionally, if you cut down on your calories enough, you may lose weight-but what you're actually losing is not fat, but muscle. That's the insidious thing about too much cardio-it actually eats away at both. So you're thin, but you're also weak, and what you have is not a healthy body but "thin fat." It's also possible for the body to adjust and plateau. So, you significantly decrease your calories, and you lose weight for a while, and then your body settles into a momentum, and you now have to cut even MORE calories just to maintain your weight. Look at the research. Watch the video, read the books I mentioned. Here's another link: http://dietforhumans.com/2011/05/28/whats-the-deal-with-calories-incalories-out/ Okay, here's a solid life example of why "calories in, calories out" is silly. Do you know that most hormonal birth control pills have a side effect of weight gain? Why? Because it changes the body's chemistry, which is turns changes the metabolism. In that case, calories in/calories out is useless. So if it's useless to explain why birth control would make women gain weight, doesn't it make sense that it'd be useless to explain OTHER instances of weight gain? Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Okay, here's a solid life example of why "calories in, calories out" is silly. Do you know that most hormonal birth control pills have a side effect of weight gain? Why? Because it changes the body's chemistry, which is turns changes the metabolism. In that case, calories in/calories out is useless. So if it's useless to explain why birth control would make women gain weight, doesn't it make sense that it'd be useless to explain OTHER instances of weight gain? Absolutely that makes sense. Whether it's body chemistry, hormones, inefficient fat cells, slow metabolism--yea, there are variables that will affect how easily you can convert fat or muscle into energy. Without a doubt, I don't contest it. What's making no sense is the idea that the human body has any way to violate the physical law dictating that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. SOMETHING happens if you have metabolic issues and we continue to eat less than we burn. It's not simply "nothing" and it's not "the body adjusts"--those might be short-term effects, but if you keep eating less than you burn, something ELSE has to happen--physics demand it. So what happens? Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Absolutely that makes sense. Whether it's body chemistry, hormones, inefficient fat cells, slow metabolism--yea, there are variables that will affect how easily you can convert fat or muscle into energy. Without a doubt, I don't contest it. What's making no sense is the idea that the human body has any way to violate the physical law dictating that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. SOMETHING happens if you have metabolic issues and we continue to eat less than we burn. It's not simply "nothing" and it's not "the body adjusts"--those might be short-term effects, but if you keep eating less than you burn, something ELSE has to happen--physics demand it. So what happens? Read the link I posted in my last response. The reason thermodynamics doesn't work to explain weight gain in humans is because humans are not a closed system. Read the article, it explains it a lot better than I could. Link to post Share on other sites
FitChick Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 In Third World countries with famines, droughts and hordes of starving people, they need to utilize this U.S. phenomenon of not eating yet not losing weight. Millions of lives could be saved. Link to post Share on other sites
phineas Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Potentially nothing. I've cut down nearly 1000 calories and haven't lost a single pound. People on the forum I mentioned have actually suggested I'm not eating enough. The rule of thumb is that you should be eating 1g protein to maintain one pound of lean muscle mass. Additionally, if you cut down on your calories enough, you may lose weight-but what you're actually losing is not fat, but muscle. That's the insidious thing about too much cardio-it actually eats away at both. So you're thin, but you're also weak, and what you have is not a healthy body but "thin fat." It's also possible for the body to adjust and plateau. So, you significantly decrease your calories, and you lose weight for a while, and then your body settles into a momentum, and you now have to cut even MORE calories just to maintain your weight. Look at the research. Watch the video, read the books I mentioned. Here's another link: http://dietforhumans.com/2011/05/28/whats-the-deal-with-calories-incalories-out/ Okay, here's a solid life example of why "calories in, calories out" is silly. Do you know that most hormonal birth control pills have a side effect of weight gain? Why? Because it changes the body's chemistry, which is turns changes the metabolism. In that case, calories in/calories out is useless. So if it's useless to explain why birth control would make women gain weight, doesn't it make sense that it'd be useless to explain OTHER instances of weight gain? If you arn't losing weight, you are eating too much. Period. Check your cals, weigh, measure & log EVERYTHING that goes into your mouth. Use myfitnespal.com. Calculate maint. for the lowest activity level regardless of how much you work out & start from there. Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 In Third World countries with famines, droughts and hordes of starving people, they need to utilize this U.S. phenomenon of not eating yet not losing weight. Millions of lives could be saved. Subsidize their corn crops, put high fructose corn syrup into everything, make sure that fresh produce and good meat is nearly impossible to afford but they can have all the frozen dinners they want on food stamps, and you'll start seeing a somewhat similar dynamic. Link to post Share on other sites
verhrzn Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 If you arn't losing weight, you are eating too much. Period. Check your cals, weigh, measure & log EVERYTHING that goes into your mouth. Use myfitnespal.com. Calculate maint. for the lowest activity level regardless of how much you work out & start from there. I use Living Strong: My Plate, and yes, I put in EVERYTHING to the point of being obsessive. Is NO ONE reading my links? Is this like the whole creationist/evolution debate, that no matter how much evidence and research are presented people continue to cling to their own narrow viewpoint of the world?? Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 But his appearance is reflective of his character, no? A man can't do anything about his height or whether he is losing his hair and I don't care about those physical attributes. He can do a lot about his weight and his build though and I do care a lot about that. No, his weight is not reflective of his character, but reflective about his self discipline when it comes to eating perhaps, and self discipline when it comes to exercise. I think a lot of people also don't see being overweight as being so bad. They enjoy food and they don't mind their extra weight, or they accept the trade off. They enjoy food more than they enjoy being slender. Or they have an addiction or weakness for food. I define character as kindness and empathy towards others. Caring towards others. Honesty, integrity, and those types of qualities. I don't define it based on whether or not someone has self discipline in his eating habits or exercising habits. I know quite a few people who are overweight but are wonderful, caring, generous, kind, people with many internal qualities, but who happen to eat more calories than they burn off. It really is not a character issue, but a physical characteristic. Link to post Share on other sites
iris219 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I use Living Strong: My Plate, and yes, I put in EVERYTHING to the point of being obsessive. Is NO ONE reading my links? Is this like the whole creationist/evolution debate, that no matter how much evidence and research are presented people continue to cling to their own narrow viewpoint of the world?? Are you on hormonal birth control? If not, it may that you're at the lowest weight for your body type. Many people want to be too thin for their body type and to achieve this they are forced to resort to drastic measures: Adderall, disordered eating (nearly nothing), smoking, caffeine. If you're at the lowest weight for your body, diet and exercise isn't going to do much. You'd basically have to quit eating and start popping Adderalls (like a few people I know), and you wouldn't be nearly as healthy as you are now. Around 1% of women are built like models. No amount of dieting or exercise is going to give most women anything close to a model like figure. Link to post Share on other sites
phineas Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I use Living Strong: My Plate, and yes, I put in EVERYTHING to the point of being obsessive. Is NO ONE reading my links? Is this like the whole creationist/evolution debate, that no matter how much evidence and research are presented people continue to cling to their own narrow viewpoint of the world?? I've lost 100lbs. I honestly can give a big mac about a link full of excuses why people are not loosing weight. sorry. Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Read the link I posted in my last response. The reason thermodynamics doesn't work to explain weight gain in humans is because humans are not a closed system. Read the article, it explains it a lot better than I could. The link goes to a page by an author who barely makes any attempt to illustrate how the human body evades the laws of thermodynamics; however, he does provide a link to another site containing a video that does. Here's that video on YouTube by Zoe Harcombe: Zoe's point about the body not being a closed system means that you can't just say that the calories you expend will always equal the calories you take in--that there are lots of other places that energy taken in goes. "We're losing heat the whole time...we wee, we poo, we sweat...there is stuff leaving the body the whole time...we are not a closed system." That's an exact quote from the video, but I don't understand her point. Is she trying to say that the energy we take in doesn't always equal the energy we consciously expend via exercise? Yea, definitely--the body's processes are your "base metabolic rate", and it's different for everyone. Heat escaping the body just means we have to create more heat, thereby burning more calories...the matter that comes out as waste and the processes which cause that to happen do expend energy--which just means more energy is expended. I don't get her point. I agree with her words that the body is not a closed system. I agree that calories in versus calories expended is an oversimplification of diet--absolutely it is. But it still frames the reality of energy and how our body processes it. I'm guessing she's mostly arguing against oversimplification so that you'll manage more than just calories (carbs, fiber, etc)--I don't really know because her point evades me. You can't take in less calories than you expend and continue functioning. Something else has to happen--either the body eventually consumes itself and you lose weight, or you crash and burn, you get sick, you break down. I've seen plenty of weight loss, I haven't seen much of the crashing and burning, the getting sick, so I don't know what happens. I'm curious about it though. Edited February 1, 2012 by EnigmaticClarity Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I use Living Strong: My Plate, and yes, I put in EVERYTHING to the point of being obsessive. I haven't seen this before, but I just looked at it and it's similar to what I do in my head. Correct me if I'm wrong--isn't this a calorie in/calorie out management tool? Link to post Share on other sites
FitChick Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 verhrzn, get all of your hormones checked by an endocrinologist to rule out any hormonal disorder. You might have PCOS or be hypothyroid. Do either of those diseases run in your family? Meanwhile here is a great article from Oprah's website about women who said they did everything right but couldn't lose weight. Very instructive. I tried posting a link earlier but it wouldn't let me. So go to oprah.com and search for "I'm doing everything right, so why can't I lose weight?" Link to post Share on other sites
EnigmaticClarity Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Meanwhile here is a great article from Oprah's website about women who said they did everything right but couldn't lose weight. Very instructive. I tried posting a link earlier but it wouldn't let me. So go to oprah.com and search for "I'm doing everything right, so why can't I lose weight?" I found it and tried posting a link, but it wouldn't let me either--it said an administrator had to review the post. Weird. Link to post Share on other sites
Cypress25 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 How are those wrong? A tiny percentage has thyroid issues, most of them are idle, greedy, ignorant and self-indulgant. Are those assumptions (might I say facts) wrong because they offend your sensitive soul? No, they're wrong because they're wrong. Most overweight people are chronic dieters. They go through a period of strict calorie restriction, lose some weight, then fall off the wagon and gain it all back. Their weight cycles up and down for years as they fail one diet after another. These people have dieted and exercised more than you ever have in your life, but you never see the results because it's an endless cycle of losing weight and gaining weight. Very different from your notion of fat people who never eat healthy and never exercise. Thyroid disease is not the only medical condition that can cause weight gain. PCOS and Cushing's syndrome are also known for causing weight gain. Not to mention all the prescription medications that have weight gain as a side effect: antidepressants, birth control, antipsychotics, mood stabilizers, steroids, anti-diabetes drugs, etc. Some people are on several medications at the same time (people with schizophrenia, for example) and if all their meds cause weight gain, there's nothing they can do to stop it. You can't tell just by looking at someone how many diets they've been on or what medications they're taking. You can't tell how much weight they've gained and lost and regained over the years. You can't tell if they're lazy or greedy or self-indulgent. You just like to think they are because it makes you feel superior. True but you have to be very very skinny to be in any kind of health danger. Skinnies get pulled up over being thin too. People will turn around and say 'wow you have lost a lot of weight, be careful not to lose your curves' while no-one will say 'wow, you put a bit of weight on over Christmas, are you sure you aren't pregnant?' I didn't say thin people are unhealthy because they're too thin. Some of them are, but I was referring to people who are a healthy weight, but are unhealthy because of their lifestyle. I know a lot of thin people who eat like fat people. But they're not fat because they have the metabolism of a hummingbird. If you see those people walking down the street, you might assume they're healthy because they look healthy. What you don't know is that they eat McDonalds for every meal and never exercise. Many college-age men fall into this category. They're unhealthy because their diet consists primarily of nachos, pizza, burgers, and beer, and they could definitely be described as lazy and self-indulgent, but you would never know it by looking at them. And then there are the thin people who are unhealthy for reasons unrelated to their diet. They smoke or do illegal drugs or visit tanning salons on a regular basis. All very unhealthy habits, but you would assume they're healthy just because they're thin. There's just no excuse for being judgmental towards anyone, for any reason. Especially people you don't even know. You think a person's weight tells you everything you need to know about that person? Think again. It doesn't tell you anything. After all, your weight doesn't tell people that you're a self-righteous b*tch, right? They'd have to get to know you to find that out. Link to post Share on other sites
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