The big "Weight" issue in dating...

[Emilia]

No, his weight is not reflective of his character, but reflective about his self discipline when it comes to eating perhaps, and self discipline when it comes to exercise. I think a lot of people also don't see being overweight as being so bad. They enjoy food and they don't mind their extra weight, or they accept the trade off. They enjoy food more than they enjoy being slender. Or they have an addiction or weakness for food. I define character as kindness and empathy towards others. Caring towards others. Honesty, integrity, and those types of qualities. I don't define it based on whether or not someone has self discipline in his eating habits or exercising habits. I know quite a few people who are overweight but are wonderful, caring, generous, kind, people with many internal qualities, but who happen to eat more calories than they burn off. It really is not a character issue, but a physical characteristic.

 

To me discipline - or the lack of it - is indicative of someone's character.

 

Just to clarify though, I have been commenting on excessively large/obese people, not those with lovehandles.

[aj22one]

What I've been trying to demonstrate from the beginning is that IT'S A LOT MORE COMPLICATED. BMR is an average that doesn't take into account body compensation, genetics, the effects of different stimuli.

 

And actually, yes, calorie estimates CAN be completely off, especially if you're cooking your own food from scratch. Go to MyPlate or some other calorie counter and put in a completely unique recipe that you've made. Is that calorie count accurate? Depends on if you put in and measured EXACTLY.

 

Additionally, people are so focused on weight that they miss that thinness does not always equal health. If you're trying to strictly lose weight, calorie in/calorie out MIGHT work (depending on tons of different other factors, as clearly stated in the articles I've linked.) But what if you're trying to lose weight AND build muscle? Calorie counting is now completely useless.

 

As to your earlier question, I calorie count because I indulge in certain food groups that I shouldn't. If I was eating strictly Paleo (no processed foods, no dairy, no grains, limited natural sugar) I could eat however much I wanted without taking into consideration the calories. But because I eat dairy and the occasional cheater meal, I have to be careful of my nutritional intake.

 

Example: if I spent all day eating fruit (which is technically healthy) at a calorie rate of 1500 a day when my BMR is 1800, I still wouldn't lose weight. Why? Because fruit is packed with carbs and sugar, two building blocks that lead to fat retention.

 

Yeah this is pretty accurate. As someone who has experimented with different diets throughout my life I can attest to the fact that it's really not about calories in calories out alone. Calories are sort of like a guideline, sorta like speed limits on the road.

 

I've noticed that I'm in my best shape when I avoid processed food, high sugar fruits and breaded products. Grilled meat and fish, vegetables and such (in whatever quantity) is a much better road map to fitness than calorie counting.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Example: if I spent all day eating fruit (which is technically healthy) at a calorie rate of 1500 a day when my BMR is 1800, I still wouldn't lose weight. Why? Because fruit is packed with carbs and sugar, two building blocks that lead to fat retention.

 

So what happens if you keep doing this for an extended period of time?

[Emilia]

Let's assume for a moment that it is true that ANYONE can be thin if they reduce calories in and increase calories out, which is probably true.

 

But what is different for each person is how much you need to restrict calories in and increase calories out.

 

If being thin meant I had to go without the foods I love, or spend an hour in a gym every night of the week after work, I'd rather be a little fat! Especially if my extra weight did not cause any health problems, and I could still enjoy the activities I love.

 

Question for those highly judgmental of fat people: how much would you sacrifice to avoid being fat? Is there any limit? Is anything more important to you than being the right size?

Kate Moss has been quoted as saying, "Nothing tastes as good as skinny feels." Do you agree? I disagree! I'm not advocating gluttony, but good food is to be enjoyed--not counted, analyzed, and avoided.

 

I think this thread has gone in a different direction slightly from how it started. The original point (and what I was commenting on earlier) were aimed at excessively/unhealthily fat/obese people, not those that have a little bit of extra around their belly because they don't make gym a priority.

 

To respond to your question though: to me it's not about being slim but about being fit. I have to consume around 2,500 - 3,000 calories a day to keep my weight up because of all the exercise I do and believe me I'm no gym bunny. 30 minutes of sprinting makes you drop weight faster than you can imagine.

 

I can eat anything I want, I'm out with friends for a curry tonight in an Indian restaurant but then I'm off surfing over the weekend. I certainly disagree with Kate Moss too, personally I don't think she is that attractive. I think voluptous women are very pretty - when they are firm fleshed.

[verhrzn]

Highlights of the article: the body's chemistry is not simple, dieting can actually change a person's natural BMI rate (so each time a person tries to diet and falls off the wagon they actually make it even MORE difficult for themselves the next time around), the body responds to diets as it does to famine (aka, clinging onto the fat), and that actually is a biological component to the need to eat.

 

http://www.womenshealthmag.com/weight-loss/healthy-weight-loss-0?page=2#axzz1l9O6N2Z2

 

But hey, let's continue to ignore the research of people who study these topics for a living and have scientific data with our own personal stories of Fatties-We-Have-Known, and how losing weight was totally easy for me, so it should be totally easy for them because our body type, genetics, and personality are all clones of each other.

 

Far better to shame and judge, out of a sense of superiority, than to understand and emphasize.

[Els]

I think "working out" is misery (I know, blasphemy!). Playing is something I enjoy regularly--sports, running, biking, etc. But going to a gym and working with machines is absurd to me. I think it is a really poor substitute for activity built into daily life, and I'm not surprised many people avoid it.

 

Yup, I totally agree with this. I LOVE hiking and taking walks. I just wish I had people to do it with.

 

I think it's not just modern convenience that encourages the sedentary lifestyle, but a whole host of other things. The hustle and bustle of the rat race, the 'grab your lunch in 10 minutes' culture, etc. I also was told by a corporate friend that she used to bike to work, but she doesn't anymore because she works in retail and has to wear an office skirt and heels, and it's just a hassle to bring them to work to change into.

[Emilia]

 

Example: if I spent all day eating fruit (which is technically healthy) at a calorie rate of 1500 a day when my BMR is 1800, I still wouldn't lose weight. Why? Because fruit is packed with carbs and sugar, two building blocks that lead to fat retention.

 

You need to have a varied diet though. It's harder when you have to look at all food groups to calculate the calories but you only need to figure this out once and you will be able to put a decent menu together for weeks to come.

[EnigmaticClarity]

I think what xxoo is saying is that when grandma prepares an awesome roast meal with drippings, you don't excuse yourself or even worse, pile only salad onto your plate. Fun family recipes are rarely the best foods for weight loss.

 

Exaggeration makes rational discussion of issues always difficult, often useless.

[aj22one]

 

I do think Jane is onto something with the exercise portion. Activity is a vital part of avoiding obesity. But, again, consider how much movement has been removed from daily life by desk jobs, cars, and other modern conveniences. How much time does the average person need to spend "working out" to make up for all that time sitting?

 

Some studies have found that going to the gym after sitting for hours at a desk job really doesn't help you health wise. That in order to maximize the benefits of going to the gym you really should walk a round a bit during the workday.

 

I think "working out" is misery (I know, blasphemy!). Playing is something I enjoy regularly--sports, running, biking, etc. But going to a gym and working with machines is absurd to me. I think it is a really poor substitute for activity built into daily life, and I'm not surprised many people avoid it.

 

Well for people who like to have a bit of muscle going to the gym to lift weights is the only way you'll get that. I only go to the gym for weight lifting, all my cardio is done playing sports.

[Jane2011]

I think where the controversy comes in is with the incendiary word “lazy.” If you equate never exercising (or doing it so sporadically that it may as well be not at all) to “lazy,” then it’s applicable. But if you see someone who never exercises as someone who has simply chosen to not exercise, then they’re not “lazy.” I don’t call them lazy, myself. I just think they should exercise

[verhrzn]

So what happens if you keep doing this for an extended period of time?

 

I'll probably stay the same weight because calorie counting is not accurate. And if I restrict it further, I might start losing muscle mass, because my body starts eating my muscles instead of my fat. My body might start eating my heart tissue. I might start going into starvation mode, in which my body actually clings even more to my weight before I finally die.

 

So I guess I might "lose weight." I guess that's all that really matters to people on this thread who have such a disgusting attitude towards other people's bodies. They don't care if you're healthy... just that you're thin.

[EnigmaticClarity]

And if a moderate portion (for you) makes them fat, what then? How much would you moderate your portions to stay thin?

 

I do think Jane is onto something with the exercise portion. Activity is a vital part of avoiding obesity. But, again, consider how much movement has been removed from daily life by desk jobs, cars, and other modern conveniences. How much time does the average person need to spend "working out" to make up for all that time sitting?

 

I think "working out" is misery (I know, blasphemy!). Playing is something I enjoy regularly--sports, running, biking, etc. But going to a gym and working with machines is absurd to me. I think it is a really poor substitute for activity built into daily life, and I'm not surprised many people avoid it.

 

I moderate as much as is needed. Usually in the example of a family dinner, I pig out, then eat well under for several days to make up for it.

 

Activity is useful, but it's so much easier to avoid eating a Twinkie than to ride a bike for 20-30 minutes to burn off the amount that a Twinkie adds--unless you have a food obsession, at which point yea, avoiding eating the Twinkie is hard, but you knew that.

 

I almost never work out, sports are definitely the way to go. Every time I see people at the gym on equipment I feel bad that they never learned to enjoy the healthy competitiveness of sport--it's 10x easier and more mentally rewarding than forcing yourself to slave away on machines.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Yeah this is pretty accurate. As someone who has experimented with different diets throughout my life I can attest to the fact that it's really not about calories in calories out alone. Calories are sort of like a guideline, sorta like speed limits on the road.

 

I've noticed that I'm in my best shape when I avoid processed food, high sugar fruits and breaded products. Grilled meat and fish, vegetables and such (in whatever quantity) is a much better road map to fitness than calorie counting.

 

THAT I can agree with, that doing something more complex than calorie tracking is a superior approach. Insisting that it doesn't work at all is physically impossible unless you have a diagnosed medical condition.

[Andy_K]

Question for those highly judgmental of fat people: how much would you sacrifice to avoid being fat? Is there any limit? Is anything more important to you than being the right size?

 

Good question. Let's see, what do I already sacrifice?

 

I spend around 5-6 hours a week doing some form of intense exercise - be it gym, running, fencing, football, etc.

 

Diet-wise, 95% of the time I do this: The only sugar I eat comes from fruit. The only fat I eat comes from nuts. No carbs after 3pm. Eat every 2-3 hours. No junk food, cakes, sweets, fizzy drinks, or any of that stuff. It costs me a fair bit more every month to eat this healthily, rather than just throw together some pasta.

 

The other 5% is when I'm eating out or something, and I'll allow myself a cheat meal.

 

I do love pizza, chips, burgers, chocolate, and everything else that's bad for you. I just don't eat it any more.

 

I don't have good genes, a great bone structure that carries weight well, or a naturally good metabolism. What I have is willpower and motivation.

[OliveOyl]

Being fat or thin is a choice. It may be a simple calories-in vs. calories-out formula. But for some people it's a difficult choice. Their cravings are a lot stronger than the more slender people. Being overweight has to do with a lot of subconscious factors and beliefs (including self-esteem), which will impact cravings, and you can't really make a lot of progress until you deal with those thought patterns and beliefs. Think of a very ingrained habit that you have personally tried to change. Ever been difficult? It's not a matter of willpower - willpower only goes so far. The body has "setpoints" and rigorously defends them until you create a new setpoint.

 

Fat people KNOW what to do. The bigger question is why aren't they doing it? Just saying "lazy" doesn't say anything but is just a pejorative. To me, lazy means "you know that if you just get up off your butt you can make a change fairly easily." With that definition, therefore I would not call most fat people lazy. I would call them "trapped." It's a mental/emotional thing like most of the things that cause people suffering.

 

Obese people don't bother me. I don't judge people or condemn them because I know in the deeper sense everyone is doing the best they can; it's an ongoing process. And, being thinner may not be the priority for them at the time, there may be other more difficult things going on in their life and food is the one comfort they know.

Edited February 1, 2012 by OliveOyl

[setsenia]

I agree, people have personal preferences. There's nothing wrong with being only attracted to thinner women as far as dating goes. You definitely need to find the person attractive to have a long lasting relationship. However, outside of dating, it's important you treat others with just the same respect that you'd want. There is still a big problem with overweight children being stigmatized by other children when the parents are really to blame. Also being thin doesn't necessarily make you "fit". I know plenty of thin and unhealthy people and people who are slightly overweight and very healthy. So a body shape doesn't always determine health. But there is a huge problem in which government and society are to blame. Super-size meals at restaurants, not necessarily just McDonald's, a big stigma. People having to eat out all the time instead of cooking for their families because of the need for dual income and a face paced working society with many obligations. I personally couldn't date a man the same height as me or shorter, just as someone would prefer to date someone thin versus obese. There's definitely nothing wrong with personal preference.

[EnigmaticClarity]

I'll probably stay the same weight because calorie counting is not accurate. And if I restrict it further, I might start losing muscle mass, because my body starts eating my muscles instead of my fat. My body might start eating my heart tissue. I might start going into starvation mode, in which my body actually clings even more to my weight before I finally die.

 

So I guess I might "lose weight." I guess that's all that really matters to people on this thread who have such a disgusting attitude towards other people's bodies. They don't care if you're healthy... just that you're thin.

 

Which is it--you'll lose weight, or you don't know? The "probablys" and "mights" in your sentences tell me you haven't stuck with it. And that's fine--just stop searching for scientific excuses to justify, duck, and dodge the behavioral component of weight management. Calorie counting is accurate enough. If you're THAT concerned about muscle weight, exercise--but if you'd try it, you're overwhelmingly likely to find it probably won't be any issue at all for you. Starvation mode only kicks in if you eat far too little for your BMR and activity level--so don't do that.

 

It's exceedingly hard to talk with you about this when you keep throwing extreme examples of behavior in...people exaggerate as a defense mechanism, and it makes rational conclusions through discussion difficult or impossible.

[FitChick]

IT'S A LOT MORE COMPLICATED. BMR is an average that doesn't take into account body compensation, genetics, the effects of different stimuli.

 

I calorie count because I indulge in certain food groups that I shouldn't... because I eat dairy and the occasional cheater meal, I have to be careful of my nutritional intake.

 

It seems to be a lot more complicated for YOU. The bold part sounds like the reason you aren't losing weight, in my opinion.

 

I ignore BMI, BMR and just track my foods. I have a scale, measuring cups, measuring spoons. I cook from scratch (I love to cook) and enter the recipes in a software program. It used to be pain in the @ss, but now it's second nature -- I could just eyeball amounts, but it's become a habit. It doesn't have to be EXACT -- you just need to track trends. You can see that on certain days you ate more or less and know how tight your pants felt later!

 

I don't deprive myself. As a sugar addict, I know which foods are triggers for me, so I try never to have them in the house, i.e. instead of baking a batch of cupcakes and eating six at once, I'll go to the local gourmet bakery and buy one to satisfy my craving. I am a stress eater so when I do indulge, I make up for it by eating better the following days and exercising more.

 

If someone hates exercise or claims they don't have the time, they need to eat less to reflect their lower activity levels. That's just the way it is.

 

I had a co-worker who admitted she deliberately gained forty pounds after her divorce "because men don't like fat women and I don't want to date." As we can see from this thread, that technique definitely works!

 

If you like being fat, enjoy yourself and join a chubby chasers dating website and you will have lots of boyfriends. Problem solved!

[Els]

Exaggeration makes rational discussion of issues always difficult, often useless.

 

Interesting how you say this, and then completely disregard all of the rational points in my posts.

[KathyM]

I agree, people have personal preferences. There's nothing wrong with being only attracted to thinner women as far as dating goes. You definitely need to find the person attractive to have a long lasting relationship. However, outside of dating, it's important you treat others with just the same respect that you'd want. There is still a big problem with overweight children being stigmatized by other children when the parents are really to blame. Also being thin doesn't necessarily make you "fit". I know plenty of thin and unhealthy people and people who are slightly overweight and very healthy. So a body shape doesn't always determine health. But there is a huge problem in which government and society are to blame. Super-size meals at restaurants, not necessarily just McDonald's, a big stigma. People having to eat out all the time instead of cooking for their families because of the need for dual income and a face paced working society with many obligations. I personally couldn't date a man the same height as me or shorter, just as someone would prefer to date someone thin versus obese. There's definitely nothing wrong with personal preference.

I'd agree with everything you said, except that there are a lot of people who are happily married to someone who they may not be so physically attracted to because of weight, but they love the person for other reasons--character, personality, values, interests, etc.

[verhrzn]

Which is it--you'll lose weight, or you don't know? The "probablys" and "mights" in your sentences tell me you haven't stuck with it. And that's fine--just stop searching for scientific excuses to justify, duck, and dodge the behavioral component of weight management. Calorie counting is accurate enough. If you're THAT concerned about muscle weight, exercise--but if you'd try it, you're overwhelmingly likely to find it probably won't be any issue at all for you. Starvation mode only kicks in if you eat far too little for your BMR and activity level--so don't do that.

 

It's exceedingly hard to talk with you about this when you keep throwing extreme examples of behavior in...people exaggerate as a defense mechanism, and it makes rational conclusions through discussion difficult or impossible.

 

The "probablys" and "maybes" are to demonstrate that losing weight is not an exact science. I have provided links and research backing up my points, where you've provided nothing but the same "Earth is flat" rationalization to call strangers lazy, without any scientific evidence.

 

I've spent YEARS doing this, and I do work out. I can almost guarantee I work out more than you. But I don't look it. And I know tons of people who are exactly like me. For every person someone throws up as an example of Fatties-Are-Lazy, I know someone in my martial arts who eats right, does high intensive cardio (martial arts is almost nothing but) and yet is fat/overweight.

 

It's kind of difficult to have "rational conclusions through discussion" when you keep coming back to the same tired point without any proof that it works for the majority of people, and when the whole line of reasoning is really just a smoke screen you use to judge complete strangers for something that has little to no impact on your life. Your line of argument is nothing more than a justification for why you should get to feel superior to other people, when you have no idea as to their lifestyle, life circumstances, what they're eating, how they're exercising, or even who they are beyond their physical appearance.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Interesting how you say this, and then completely disregard all of the rational points in my posts.

 

The rest of your post was about de-empasizing weight loss, which I find uninteresting because I enjoy being attractive and I presume wasn't even directed at me since clearly I'm interested in it since all my posts have been about it.

[FitChick]

Verhrzn, I forgot to mention that the Lefkoe Method is also valuable for weight loss. Since you can afford it, I'd recommend you have a session with his wife Shelly, who had a weight problem her whole life until recently, thanks to experimenting with the Method with her husband, who facilitated her. Quite impressive.

 

This is what Joe Vitale looked like

, when he had a session for a completely unrelated pattern. This is him

[tigressA]

I don't think all fat people are fat out of laziness. I think a good number of them are suffering, whether it be from a mental block/illness or physical illness or something else. However, I find fat people quite physically unattractive, particularly those who are obese, and I refuse to date anyone who is even slightly overweight (tried it once and I hated it).

 

I have a naturally slender figure. I've never had to diet or exercise to maintain it. It had been a struggle for me up until a couple of years ago to even gain any weight (like at least 5 lbs). I will probably never be overweight even if I continue like I am--indulging in dessert foods at least a couple times a week, having my 25 minutes of walking to work 5 days a week count as my exercise, and being disdainful of most whole fruit and any green salad (though I gobble down cooked veggies and I love real fruit juice and smoothies). I honestly would be really depressed if I ever became overweight, so in order to change the 'probably never' into 'definitely never' I will need to pay more attention to what I am putting in my body and what I am doing with it.

[Els]

The "probablys" and "maybes" are to demonstrate that losing weight is not an exact science. I have provided links and research backing up my points, where you've provided nothing but the same "Earth is flat" rationalization to call strangers lazy, without any scientific evidence.

 

I've spent YEARS doing this, and I do work out. I can almost guarantee I work out more than you. But I don't look it. And I know tons of people who are exactly like me. For every person someone throws up as an example of Fatties-Are-Lazy, I know someone in my martial arts who eats right, does high intensive cardio (martial arts is almost nothing but) and yet is fat/overweight.

 

It's kind of difficult to have "rational conclusions through discussion" when you keep coming back to the same tired point without any proof that it works for the majority of people, and when the whole line of reasoning is really just a smoke screen you use to judge complete strangers for something that has little to no impact on your life. Your line of argument is nothing more than a justification for why you should get to feel superior to other people, when you have no idea as to their lifestyle, life circumstances, what they're eating, how they're exercising, or even who they are beyond their physical appearance.

 

The interesting part about this poster is that he has said in another thread that the woman was overwhelmingly shallow for losing attraction to her 225 lbs partner because he was nowhere even close to technical obesity (I agree with that, FTR, but just citing it). Coincidentally, he is choosing to ignore or dispute all the points made here by women who are themselves not technically overweight (I know you, xxoo, and myself are not, at least) by claiming them to be 'defense mechanisms'. Hrmm.