I spluttered....

[18Years2Late]

If the penis was not aquired after the M, it's not community property that will b split 50/50 at the time of D...therefore the W does not "own" it...she can require/ask/expect that it not b used in a way that would offend her...but the man has the free will to use it however he pleases...b that for right or wrong...

 

However...she does "own" any marital assets...including dildos which were gifted to her or purchased by her...and the marital bed, marital house, etc.

[phillyfan]

Dude he is a sick f**k. Hes askin her 2 do this 2 hurt her, probly 2 brag to his buddies and f**k wit ther head, its a power thng. A dude dont say sh*t like this unless he is only into the sex, if he cared bout the OW he wudnt eva speak 2 her like tht.

 

It aint bout the sex toys cos if he was tht in2 thm, he wud just buy new ones or not tell d OW tht thy r d wifes. He told her 4 d kink/power trip.

[18Years2Late]

dude he is a sick f**k. Hes askin her 2 do this 2 hurt her, probly 2 brag to his buddies and f**k wit ther head, its a power thng. A dude dont say sh*t like this unless he is only into the sex, if he cared bout the ow he wudnt eva speak 2 her like tht.

 

It aint bout the sex toys cos if he was tht in2 thm, he wud just buy new ones or not tell d ow tht thy r d wifes. He told her 4 d kink/power trip.

 

^^^^^this^^^^^

[woinlove]

If the penis was not aquired after the M, it's not community property that will b split 50/50 at the time of D...therefore the W does not "own" it...she can require/ask/expect that it not b used in a way that would offend her...but the man has the free will to use it however he pleases...b that for right or wrong...

 

However...she does "own" any marital assets...including dildos which were gifted to her or purchased by her...and the marital bed, marital house, etc.

 

Now we are into community assets as defined by marriage laws! I have heard of some men having to reimburse the W during divorce proceedings for money spent on the OW. Again, such legalities are not of key importance to me in intimate relationships, but if you think this is the reason to not use the same sex toys as the W (not a huge sum of money, right?), what do you think of a MM spending any money on the OW? Only if it comes out of some personal inheritance which would not be considered joint assets under marriage/divorce laws?

 

Or maybe OW should only get involved with MM in certain legal jurisdictions. I think in some countries women are not considered to own anything. I guess in those countries MM can spend what he wants and you can enjoy all "his wife's" sex toys.

[frozensprouts]

this whole thing is pretty gross...

 

let's for the sake of argument, say that it's his wife's toothbrush, used dental floss, a used condom he used with her , her diaphragm, etc. that a married guy asks his other woman to use... ( most of which can be sterilized and cleaned, but i wouldn't recommend it:sick:)...

 

if you ask me, asking her to use any of those items would be a pretty nasty proposition...

 

it has nothing to do with ownership...

 

I don't own my husband, nor do i own his male anatomy. But i do have a right to expect that they will be reserved for myself and not for use with someone else...not because of ownership, but because of the intimate bond of trust between us and the intimate meaning attached to them. I feel i have the right to fully expect he will not use them with anyone but myself.

 

I don't care if he lends my pen to someone else, nor my garden shears, a cup if sugar, a liter of gas nor anything like that. even though I may own all those things, I have no intimate connection to them and will be happy to share with someone in need.

 

Sex and the intimate objects that are connected with it are very different things...perhaps it speaks to the fact that I have different boundaries than others and not that i think I "own" him that i feel this way... i think it's kind of sad that some think that a betrayed spouse's main concern is with their spouse cheating is that, somehow, they feel they own their spouse and their anatomy and are mad that it is being used by someone else because they own it. It is actually because I don't own my spouse that cheating is especially hurtful...if he doesn't want to be with me, he is free to leave and have sex with who ever he wants, when ever he wants, but he won't be having sex with me and our relationship would no longer exist.Because i don't own him, he has the freedom to make that choice.

 

I can't speak for how someone in an "open ' relationship might feel, as I haven't been in one, but if things are they way i suspect, this illustrates my point really well. I suspect that they would feel very hurt if their spouse was having sex behind their back as this would betray the trust they would have with their spouse and be very hurtful. It would have nothing to do with ownership, but it would have a lot to do with breaching just about the most intimate bond of trust two people can have with one another.

[donnamaybe]

this whole thing is pretty gross...

 

let's for the sake of argument, say that it's his wife's toothbrush, used dental floss, a used condom he used with her , her diaphragm, etc. that a married guy asks his other woman to use... ( most of which can be sterilized and cleaned, but i wouldn't recommend it:sick:)...

 

if you ask me, asking her to use any of those items would be a pretty nasty proposition...

 

it has nothing to do with ownership...

 

I don't own my husband, nor do i own his male anatomy. But i do have a right to expect that they will be reserved for myself and not for use with someone else...not because of ownership, but because of the intimate bond of trust between us and the intimate meaning attached to them. I feel i have the right to fully expect he will not use them with anyone but myself.

 

I don't care if he lends my pen to someone else, nor my garden shears, a cup if sugar, a liter of gas nor anything like that. even though I may own all those things, I have no intimate connection to them and will be happy to share with someone in need.

 

Sex and the intimate objects that are connected with it are very different things...perhaps it speaks to the fact that I have different boundaries than others and not that i think I "own" him that i feel this way... i think it's kind of sad that some think that a betrayed spouse's main concern is with their spouse cheating is that, somehow, they feel they own their spouse and their anatomy and are mad that it is being used by someone else because they own it. It is actually because I don't own my spouse that cheating is especially hurtful...if he doesn't want to be with me, he is free to leave and have sex with who ever he wants, when ever he wants, but he won't be having sex with me and our relationship would no longer exist.Because i don't own him, he has the freedom to make that choice.

 

I can't speak for how someone in an "open ' relationship might feel, as I haven't been in one, but if things are they way i suspect, this illustrates my point really well. I suspect that they would feel very hurt if their spouse was having sex behind their back as this would betray the trust they would have with their spouse and be very hurtful. It would have nothing to do with ownership, but it would have a lot to do with breaching just about the most intimate bond of trust two people can have with one another.

Nicely done!

[Spark1111]

Hey, we do not own each other's anatomy, but you can rest assured when he pursued me relentlessy to MARRY him, and then to RECONCILE with him, he was staking claim to the exclusive use of my anatomy.

 

He wasn't even willing to revoke that exclusive claim during his affair, otherwise, WHY keep the affair secret from me??????

 

Because he did not want to relinquish my exclusivity WITH HIM. And there is no way I could have been with a man who was shtupping another woman.

 

He knew that. He lied to her when he told her we rarely to never had sex. They lied to me about their shtupping. Just yuck, really ladies.

 

Why? Because I would have said buh-bye, have fun, and went out on a date that night.

 

In fact, after DDAY, when I threw him out to go be with his soul mate, I did go out with friends and he STALKED me to ensure my anatomy was still exclusive.

 

Give me a break.

[woinlove]

Give me a break, indeed. I think Spark and fp have it right. It is the deception, lying and making the BS believe a false reality in order to remove the possibility of them divorcing you or whatever that creates the biggest yuck factor.

 

Maybe ES and a few others feel it is immoral for 3 consenting adults to make an informed decision to share sex toys because sex toys have to "belong" to one person or to one particular R, but I don't think most people care what 3 consenting adults do sexually, provided they aren't betraying and hurting others to do it. What is really yucky about the sex toys in this case is that the MM is planning to do it all behind her back adding yet another layer to his deception/betrayal.

[Spark1111]

Give me a break, indeed. I think Spark and fp have it right. It is the deception, lying and making the BS believe a false reality in order to remove the possibility of them divorcing you or whatever that creates the biggest yuck factor.

 

Maybe ES and a few others feel it is immoral for 3 consenting adults to make an informed decision to share sex toys because sex toys have to "belong" to one person or to one particular R, but I don't think most people care what 3 consenting adults do sexually, provided they aren't betraying and hurting others to do it. What is really yucky about the sex toys in this case is that the MM is planning to do it all behind her back adding yet another layer to his deception/betrayal.

 

Agreed! What consenting adults choose to do is none of my business.

 

But no one consented with me before having sex with another, while we were still having sex! Yuck!

 

Felicity, tell your friend to dump this bozo and buy her own damn toys!

 

This isn't about sex, or passion, or love for that matter. This affair is about anger and rebellion against his unsuspecting wife who he may have confused with the mean mommy (or daddy) of his childhood.

[SidLyon]

 

Sidlyon: Hmm I'm a little puzzled about the reactions of some of the OW and fOW here...

 

Yes IMO it's totally gross to share a sex toy with another woman; but no more gross than having sex with a man who's also having sex with another woman.

 

I'm a fBW and would never knowingly share either a sex toy or my H with another woman. On the other hand that's what an OW signs up for isn't it? Sex with a man who's doing it with another (his BW). I don't see the problem for OW, although I never willingly would...

 

ES: The sex toys belong to the W. The H's penis (and the rest of him) belongs to the H.

 

The sex toys are not choosing to share themselves with the H and the OW. The W is not choosing to share the sex toys with the H and the OW.

 

The H is choosing to share himself and his penis with the OW.

 

I guess not spotting a difference between something that is owned by another, and someONE that has free will and owns himself signals a different view on "ownership" and free will.

 

Some people consistently bring "ownership" into conversations about A's.

 

 

I think it is rationalization, which is common (some might say universal) in secret affairs. Okay to have sex with MM in the "his" car, but not in "his wife's" car, even though by law both may be considered jointly owned and marital assets. It is common to make distinctions that avoid the central issues as part of rationalizing how one is treating others.

 

It has nothing to do (IMO) with who paid for them. The sex toys were purchased in the context of the M between the H and the W. They "belong" there.

 

The H's penis was not created, purchased or otherwise brought into being in that context. It was, and remains, his, even if he chose to "lend" it to the M. It does not "belong" to the M in the same way - it belongs to him, as it is a part of him, and is subject to his free will.

 

It's not all about ownership to me, but about free will and choice. The sex toys, being "owned" by the BW, do not have free will to choose to join the R between the H and the OW. They are the property of, and subject to, the say so of the BW.

 

Unlike the H's penis.

 

Exactly. So comparing a penis to a dildo, as if both were "owned" in the same way by the BW, seems ludicrous to me.

 

Actually, besides disagreeing on you that the concept of ownership is important in an affair, I really don't understand your post.

 

What do you mean by the sex toys "belong" in the M?? If a H and W share some sex toys and which both he H and W agree he can use on a third party and the third party is fine with this, would you say -- even though there is nothing wrong with having sex with a third party (all 3 here are openly and honestly exercising their free will, right?) , it is somehow wrong for the three of them to agree to use sex toys originally purchased by the H and W to use on each other? Can you please explain exactly what moral code of yours that violates? Because I am just not getting it.

 

Agreed! What consenting adults choose to do is none of my business.

 

But no one consented with me before having sex with another, while we were still having sex! Yuck!

 

Felicity, tell your friend to dump this bozo and buy her own damn toys!

 

This isn't about sex, or passion, or love for that matter. This affair is about anger and rebellion against his unsuspecting wife who he may have confused with the mean mommy (or daddy) of his childhood.

 

Read my original post again! I didn't mention "ownership".

 

As a BW it's the "sharing" that's the yuk factor for me. I wouldn't expect to share either a husband or sex toys and I never knowingly have or would.

 

On the other hand an OW certainly signs up for "sharing" the MM and I don't see the reasons (for an OW) for the problems with also "sharing" sex toys irrespective of who "owns" them.

 

By "sharing" I mean having sex with someone who's doing it with another (his BW) or using sex toys that have been used with another.

 

Perhaps an OW or fOW can answer why it is worse for them to "share" sex toys but they don't mind having sex with a guy who's recently been at it with his wife?

 

Don't get me wrong, for myself I think both are totally gross.

Edited February 2, 2012 by SidLyon

[SidLyon]

LMAO! Since when did a penis have free will? :lmao: Unbelievable! Look, there's a penis, walking down the street! Ridiculous!

 

I'm trying to understand why it's not gross (from the perspective of an OW) to have sex with a man who's recently done "it" with another woman but it's hideously gross to use sex toys that have been used by another woman.

 

So far the only answers I can elicit form this thread is that a sex toy is owned by somebody, but the man's penis is not. Furthermore the man makes a choice to have sex with an OW after he's done it with his wife; whereas a sex toy (as an inanimate object) makes no choices.

 

While I understand what is being said here, it doesn't actually make sense to me as to why, to an OW, one is disgusting and the other not. As a BW I find both offensive.

 

Maybe in this thread we have stumbled upon the core difference between many OW and many BW.

[MissBee]

Yes, this is why. Thanks MissBee. His c*ck is his own, but the sex toys are his W's.

 

I kind of hope for the sake of my friend that the more innocent sounding explanations have some validity - like he is insecure or perhaps so heated up by passion that he has lost his right mind.

 

But instinctively - it's a red flag the size of Kazakhstan.

 

Indeed it is

 

I hope for her sake she doesn't bother with trying to decipher this and give hgim the boot.

[MissBee]

SMH...no offense please but I find the comparison of the W "ownership" of the H to the W "ownership" of a dildo a little strange...no one "owns" another person...I might have a commitment to my H from a morality standpoint by virtue of some vows and a peice of paper...but he doesn't OWN me like something he bought at the store...and vice versa...I certainly don't own him...and would never think that I did...

 

But I do own sex toys...that I don't share...and wash thoroughly after each use .

 

Ditto.

 

In response to Sid....I think intimate objects hold a different gross factor than human body parts that don't operate in the same way and only "belong" to the person. As 18Years2late says, one doesn't own one's spouse (although you have a covenant with them) in the same way which one owns and uses personal items. Even married couples don't often share toothbrushes and such personal care items and for me, no matter how much I love my boyfriend and while I may kiss him, I feel queasy at the thought of using his toothbrush to brush my teeth.

 

Even hygienically, how one perceives kissing another is different than how one perceives using someone else's toothbrush, even if you would kiss that person. Sex toys, also hold a different status than body parts that are alive, attached to the person, etc.

 

A lot of people's spouses have had other partners before them and in essence, unless you are a virgin upon marriage, your husband has had himself in another or several vaginas, and you yourself have had at least one other or several other penises inside of you. However, that is different than your husband asking you to use his ex gf's old dildo that has been cleaned...although he is using the same penis (just cleaned usually) to have sex with you both. Likewise, if one reconciles with one's spouse after an A, he will be using the same penis, mouth, hands etc to touch you as he did the OW and I doubt if he asked you to use the OW's sex toy reasoning that you both have shared the same penis/mouth etc so why not....you wouldn't think it was the same. I think it is apparent that one is different than the other.

 

So I get the argument but it doesn't translate completely.

Edited February 3, 2012 by MissBee

[frozensprouts]

maybe it's the idea of an intimate bond and trust between spouses being broken when intimate objects or anatomy would be shared with someone else ( other man/woman). It's not the idea of "ownership" or the idea that one's spouse has been intimate with others before the marriage that's upsetting...it's the broken bond of trust and the ultimate form of disrespect that is shown to the betrayed spouse when that bond is broken.

 

While it is disrespectful to the other woman (or man) that she or he be asked to share intimate objects with the betrayed spouse, but at least they are gievn a choice in the matter...the betrayed spouse is not, as they most likely aren't being informed about what is going on

 

there is something really passive aggressive about it...the idea that one would do that to their spouse behind their back is beyond disrespectful...it's like a kid using their brother's toothbrush to scrub the floor and then putting it back for them to use, all the while laughing at them behind their back

[MissBee]

this whole thing is pretty gross...

 

let's for the sake of argument, say that it's his wife's toothbrush, used dental floss, a used condom he used with her , her diaphragm, etc. that a married guy asks his other woman to use... ( most of which can be sterilized and cleaned, but i wouldn't recommend it:sick:)...

 

if you ask me, asking her to use any of those items would be a pretty nasty proposition...

 

it has nothing to do with ownership...

 

I don't own my husband, nor do i own his male anatomy. But i do have a right to expect that they will be reserved for myself and not for use with someone else...not because of ownership, but because of the intimate bond of trust between us and the intimate meaning attached to them. I feel i have the right to fully expect he will not use them with anyone but myself.

 

I don't care if he lends my pen to someone else, nor my garden shears, a cup if sugar, a liter of gas nor anything like that. even though I may own all those things, I have no intimate connection to them and will be happy to share with someone in need.

 

Sex and the intimate objects that are connected with it are very different things...perhaps it speaks to the fact that I have different boundaries than others and not that i think I "own" him that i feel this way... i think it's kind of sad that some think that a betrayed spouse's main concern is with their spouse cheating is that, somehow, they feel they own their spouse and their anatomy and are mad that it is being used by someone else because they own it. It is actually because I don't own my spouse that cheating is especially hurtful...if he doesn't want to be with me, he is free to leave and have sex with who ever he wants, when ever he wants, but he won't be having sex with me and our relationship would no longer exist.Because i don't own him, he has the freedom to make that choice.

 

I can't speak for how someone in an "open ' relationship might feel, as I haven't been in one, but if things are they way i suspect, this illustrates my point really well. I suspect that they would feel very hurt if their spouse was having sex behind their back as this would betray the trust they would have with their spouse and be very hurtful. It would have nothing to do with ownership, but it would have a lot to do with breaching just about the most intimate bond of trust two people can have with one another.

 

 

Ditto! Great post!

[MissBee]

maybe it's the idea of an intimate bond and trust between spouses being broken when intimate objects or anatomy would be shared with someone else ( other man/woman). It's not the idea of "ownership" or the idea that one's spouse has been intimate with others before the marriage that's upsetting...it's the broken bond of trust and the ultimate form of disrespect that is shown to the betrayed spouse when that bond is broken.

 

While it is disrespectful to the other woman (or man) that she or he be asked to share intimate objects with the betrayed spouse, but at least they are gievn a choice in the matter...the betrayed spouse is not, as they most likely aren't being informed about what is going on

 

there is something really passive aggressive about it...the idea that one would do that to their spouse behind their back is beyond disrespectful...it's like a kid using their brother's toothbrush to scrub the floor and then putting it back for them to use, all the while laughing at them behind their back

 

I don't think the argument is about ownership...well my post anyway is addressing the idea SidLyon brought up about the OW sharing the penis with the BS so what's so gross about her sharing sex toys as well, as it's the same and she didn't get the outrage. My argument, and 18's is that "sharing a penis" is not the same as sharing a sex toy. The argument that one is sharing a penis, so might as well share a sex toy, doesn't really translate....the latter is far different and for the reasons I bolded in your other post explains the difference.

 

That was the only matter I was addressing, why one is more gross than the other and why it can't be considered the same.

[MissBee]

I'm trying to understand why it's not gross (from the perspective of an OW) to have sex with a man who's recently done "it" with another woman but it's hideously gross to use sex toys that have been used by another woman.

 

So far the only answers I can elicit form this thread is that a sex toy is owned by somebody, but the man's penis is not. Furthermore the man makes a choice to have sex with an OW after he's done it with his wife; whereas a sex toy (as an inanimate object) makes no choices.

 

While I understand what is being said here, it doesn't actually make sense to me as to why, to an OW, one is disgusting and the other not. As a BW I find both offensive.

 

Maybe in this thread we have stumbled upon the core difference between many OW and many BW.

 

I don't think one needs to be a BW or OW to understand this.

 

In my addressing this question, I am only thinking about it from purely the concept of using another person's sex toy and using the penis of a man who has sex with other people. Taking affairs and so on out of the equation and breaking it down to the core issue: a sex toy used by another, a penis used by another.

 

Even as a BW for example, your husband cannot get a new penis. I doubt you would have sex with him right after you found out he had sex with the OW the day before. But if you reconcile...at some point you will have sex. At some point I guess you feel he is "purified" and you're not thinking omg his penis was in the OW at one point. Likewise when you date any non-virgin, you would be horrified (well some of us) at having sex with them if you knew right before that they had sex with another....but there is a grace period....or a period where that doesn't matter anymore and you don't forever think of all the people they used their penis on. After a time, you don't view it as "contaminated" anymore.

 

A sex toy now...I don't think any amount of time passed is going to make most people comfortable with using another's sex toy. I am not going to use someone's sex toy 1 week or one year after they used it. With a penis now, if my boyfriend had a gf one month or one year ago, I'd use it still lol. It is "purified" now in my mind. It doesn't carry that same form of feeling. I think that is what is being conveyed.

 

It's not that it's not disrespectful....it is..no dispute...however, I am explaining why one is gross and one isn't as gross and this again is not a BW vs OW issue..this is a human perception and how ANYONE is going to think of how people use their genitals and with whom and when does it not bother you anymore...versus a sex toy, which seems to have no such forgiveness, where even if years pass, you won't want to use used sex toys...but you will still use "used" genitals after a time. Hope that makes sense.

[Elizabeth Southerns]

Perhaps an OW or fOW can answer why it is worse for them to "share" sex toys but they don't mind having sex with a guy who's recently been at it with his wife?

 

I have no experience of that myself, nor do I know any OW who has.

 

But then, given the views expressed elsewhere by some BWs that they had an "active" sex life during the A, consisting of maybe once or twice a week, perhaps "recently" means anything from a week to a month ago In which case every single cell in the MM's penis is likely to have renewed itself, so technically it wouldn't be the same organ that last serviced the BW anyway

 

OTOH, for MMs who may be prone to guilt, it's a lot more likely that the BW would be the one getting the sloppy seconds...?

[woinlove]

I have no experience of that myself, nor do I know any OW who has.

 

But then, given the views expressed elsewhere by some BWs that they had an "active" sex life during the A, consisting of maybe once or twice a week, perhaps "recently" means anything from a week to a month ago In which case every single cell in the MM's penis is likely to have renewed itself, so technically it wouldn't be the same organ that last serviced the BW anyway

 

OTOH, for MMs who may be prone to guilt, it's a lot more likely that the BW would be the one getting the sloppy seconds...?

 

Sloppy seconds for the unsuspecting wife? - why view affairs as a nasty competition when what really matters is what one thinks of oneself, not who the MM is treating well as he isn't treating anyone well. What matters is are you treating others well and, if not, does that come from some brokenness that you can work on?

[frozensprouts]

I have no experience of that myself, nor do I know any OW who has.

 

But then, given the views expressed elsewhere by some BWs that they had an "active" sex life during the A, consisting of maybe once or twice a week, perhaps "recently" means anything from a week to a month ago In which case every single cell in the MM's penis is likely to have renewed itself, so technically it wouldn't be the same organ that last serviced the BW anyway

 

OTOH, for MMs who may be prone to guilt, it's a lot more likely that the BW would be the one getting the sloppy seconds...?

 

why so contemptuous? What did a betrayed spouse ever do to you?

 

you just don't get it, do you? It the breach of trust that matters, the deception, the disrespect, the insult to the intimacy between a husband and wife that hurts.

[donnamaybe]

I have no experience of that myself, nor do I know any OW who has.

 

But then, given the views expressed elsewhere by some BWs that they had an "active" sex life during the A, consisting of maybe once or twice a week, perhaps "recently" means anything from a week to a month ago In which case every single cell in the MM's penis is likely to have renewed itself, so technically it wouldn't be the same organ that last serviced the BW anyway

 

OTOH, for MMs who may be prone to guilt, it's a lot more likely that the BW would be the one getting the sloppy seconds...?

Unless a person is actually IN THE BEDROOM OF THE MARRIED COUPLE, they have NO CLUE what goes on. For an OW/OM to believe everything that comes out of the mouth of a known liar would be foolish, would it not?

[donnamaybe]

As for the BW getting "sloppy seconds," why is it then that in nearly every A situation we've seen on this forum, the OW/OM is tossed to the curb on D Day? Sounds like the spouse comes first to me.

[MissBee]

I can help you with that. Serial OW have massive inferiority complexes, resulting in a compulsion to appear grander, more exceptional to everyone else, females in particular. I image this true of long time OW also.

 

Yepp I believe this and have seen it on LS and elsewhere.

[Spark1111]

I have no experience of that myself, nor do I know any OW who has.

 

But then, given the views expressed elsewhere by some BWs that they had an "active" sex life during the A, consisting of maybe once or twice a week, perhaps "recently" means anything from a week to a month ago In which case every single cell in the MM's penis is likely to have renewed itself, so technically it wouldn't be the same organ that last serviced the BW anyway

 

OTOH, for MMs who may be prone to guilt, it's a lot more likely that the BW would be the one getting the sloppy seconds...?

 

 

Meoww...claws coming out?

 

I will never know who got the sloppy seconds during his affair. She wasn't "woman" enough to return my three phone calls.

 

In retrospect, he says sex with her was boring. The turn on was how willing she was to ahem....service him... at the drop of his dime.

 

It's called standards.... I like a little romance and some fine dining first.

 

I'm worth it!

[bentnotbroken]

:confused:Interesting points of view. I don't know "who" gets the "sloppy seconds", but slop typically belongs with the pigs. So who ever is receiving the slop ought to make sure it is placed in its proper environment.