Male psychology

[Disenchantedly Yours]

DY, here's a novel suggestion - there are men who fit your requirements. Yes, they really exist. See my post above. Why not just be with them and let the other men do as they wish? There are women who don't mind.

 

I talked about in another thread how it became increasingly more difficult to find men that haven't made porn and active part of their life. In my dating experience, I've seen a change in men. And I think it's worth talking about.

 

I will of course try to find a man that thinks as I do. But that doesn't mean that I want to close the discussion. I think it's an important one.

 

But thanks for your concern Elswyth.

[zengirl]

I'm a woman, and I have thought about sex with other men at times during my relationship. Mostly, the thinking was prompted by a dream (I have sex dreams -- sometimes of my husband, sometimes of others, sometimes of people who I don't even know/don't seem to be real people; heck, sometimes I'm not even 'me' in my dreams -- all kinds of dreams -- quite often, actually, but I have at LEAST 3 dreams I remember every night; I expect loads of people have sex dreams they forget) but sometimes just a passing thought. I don't sit around, distracted, by thoughts of sex with other men. Occasionally, if one of us has been away for a few days, I might get distracted of thoughts of sex with the hubby (who I'd rather have sex with than anyone else anyway -- good thing, I suppose! ), but mostly I have enough sex that it doesn't distract me.

 

If my husband occasionally things of sleeping with someone else, I'm fine with it, frankly. If he sits around, distracted and listless just totally dreaming about it, I guess that'd be weird. I asked him (and then had to admit the above about my thoughts) and he laughed and said, "Well, right NOW I'm thinking about sex I've had or thought about with other women," -- because basically as soon as you mention something you're thinking about it! But he wouldn't say he has done it often or in detail. I suppose you could take the tact that he's a liar, but my hubby really doesn't lie. At all. Not even about stupid things, and not to anyone. It's one of my favorite things about him, though I imagine some people with poor character themselves couldn't imagine someone who doesn't lie.

 

Anyway, all of that is to say: I think we have to define what 'think about' means, really. I mean, in what detail does it become 'thinking about it.' If I were thinking, "Hey, I want to have sex with that guy," is that the same as "That guy's sexy," or "What would this be like?" or remembering a sexual encounter or having a dream or whatever. Those are all different scenarios.

 

My barometer: I think if you'd RATHER have sex with your partner AND you overall value the relationship you have with your partner in all ways (not just sexual) then you're probably fine. But everyone's welcome to their own barometer.

 

I think men can certainly be faithful, regardless of options, and many have been. Some of the most loyal, awesome, faithful guys I know are also attractive and have many options -- when they 'settle down,' they pick someone they truly want to be with and, if they have good character, they know they're closing the door to those other options and are cool with it. Really, the only guys who are terribly affected by 'options' are going to be guys who never had them and then get them later, especially those who feel they've 'settled' and I'd say that's true with women too. The solution is simple: don't be with someone you don't truly adore, and don't be with someone who doesn't seem to truly adore you.

 

Not only do I think men (and women) can be simultaneously happy in a relationship and still fantasize about other people, I even think men (and women) can be in a happy relationship and enjoy flirting with other people, without ever being tempted to cheat.

 

I don't view other women as a threat, nor do I think my husband views other men as a threat. To me, flirting is still crossing a line. I DO agree it's possible to flirt and never cheat -- some people do this, and if their spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend/whatever is okay with it, they can do as they please as far as I'm concerned. But it's not for me, and it doesn't fit my values. It's not about being threatened---it's simply a social grace and appropriateness issue. I feel it's inappropriate to ALL parties, including witnesses, to flirt with someone when you're in a relationship; it potentially makes people uncomfortable, creates rumors, etc. So, why do it?

 

Granted, this is flirting---that doesn't mean I won't talk to men and be just as playful or funny or happy around them as I would my female friends, etc, nor do I keep my husband from his female friends or draw any lines for him. Some people consider even smiling at someone flirting, and I'm not one of those!

 

I can't help but personally equate that a man that thinks about banging other women while in a relationship with me, does support some disatisfaction with what I have to offer him. Why is it we tell ourselves that it's natural for us to think about other people (and it is), but that it's not natural to feel worried about what our partners are thinking about and what that means to their involvement with us?

 

I think it's natural too, but I think it comes from thinking with scarcity. Just because I think about other jobs from time to time doesn't mean I don't love mine (I do, and I do!). People think about all sorts of things without being dissatisfied. At least people I know---the human mind goes a lot of places very quickly. I think as long as you come from a place of abundance, everything feels better.

 

I know I offer a lot in my relationship, but I am never unhappy if hubby thinks of other things or whatever, sexually or otherwise. It is pretty hard to make me feel 'threatened' because I'm not always afraid of losing things, because I understand that the world is so very FULL of wonderful people and opportunities and I know hubby thinks the same way, so the fact that we CHOSE each other means something above and beyond the other stuff. YMMV, of course. And maybe that'll change down the road, but I don't think so. I think a lot of things could go wrong, but not that.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

xxoo

If fantasy is not unhealthy, why the need for self control and redirection?

 

I already addressed this in my other posts. Please go back and read them for an answer to your question.

 

 

Very introspective, Woggle!

 

Does it sound reasonable from the other side?

 

My posts are very reasonable. And I think alot of people here see the truth in them.

 

But please continue to play "teacher" to Woggle if it pleases you.

[Woggle]

I already addressed this in my other posts. Please go back and read them for an answer to your question.

 

 

 

 

My posts are very reasonable. And I think alot of people here see the truth in them.

 

But please continue to play "teacher" to Woggle if it pleases you.

 

I wasn't talking about you. I think NN is very much a female version of me.

[xpaperxcutx]

No matter how much a woman loves her favorite pair of shoes, she still wonders how the other pairs of shoes she sees at store windows might look on her.

 

 

I find it funny that you would compare a man to a pair of shoes. I love all my shoes from the first time I set my eyes on them, I can't say the same for every guy I've set my eyes on.

 

That's all I do, but I think of it as sexual. I mostly just think about women's bodies, not so much the act of intercourse, but the feelings I get are entirely sexual, and they really just make me want to have sex with whoever I'm with. Every girl I've been with is the same way--they don't say they are, but I can see it in their reactions to attractive men, naked men in film, and based upon their comments about other men in conversation.

 

I understand what you mean, but I do think it's an uncontrollable instinct to be sexually aroused by the act of sex rather than by the people performing the act. This is also another I had wanted to get across but I didn't know the right words to convey it.

 

 

 

I wasn't talking about you. I think NN is very much a female version of me.

[EnigmaticClarity]

How about you both be fair and just simply come out and *say* you are suggesting has "misandrical point of view". Instead of indirectly talking around it while still attempting to suggest untrue things about other posters.

 

FAR too difficult to battle through the downpour of self-righteousness that typically results. I don't know how you and NN became the way you are, but I'm fairly curious about it--I'd love to read your origin stories.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Are you suggesting that I am preaching Mme. C? Aren't you not doing your fair amount of "preaching"? Or are we both just sharing our thoughts on this topic?

 

 

No, I am not preaching. I am not on any soap box. You inspire me to try to get you to look at things from a different perspective, not necessarily mine.

 

With respect, your posting style on the subject of porn / fantasies / sexuality really does come off as preachy. I am not saying you intend that, but for many of us on the receiving end - it does.

 

You are extremely passionate and invested in your point of view, and as I have said before, you make a lot of valid points that I agree with. But when you get into territory about how people should "control" their thoughts to conform to what YOU deem appropriate, or concepts such as "unnecessary masturbation" (and I assume it would be you and those of like mind who would be the arbiters of what constitutes necessary and unnecessary masturbation) you veer off to a place where few here will choose to follow you.

 

Of course you are entitled to your beliefs, but I don't think that you are correct in your judgements about people who believe differently than you do.

 

As someone recently posted, there ARE men who believe the same way you do, especially in certain fundamentalist religions. Lusting in ones heart, and all of that. But I do think successful relationships will be very difficult for you if you believe that your partner needs to be accountable to you for his thoughts.

[Quiet Storm]

zengirl, great post. It sounds like my husband and I.

 

I think men objectify strangers and women they don't know, but after they get to know them, they appreciate their other qualities. I don't draw the conclusion that just because a man looks at a woman's boobs or watches porn, that he doesn't respect women. That's a huge leap to make, IMO. I think he doesn't respect THOSE women. Because he doesn't know them. He respects the women in his life because he knows them enough to appreciate other qualities. Men may see looks first, but this doesn't mean he can't get to know you and appreciate other things, too.

 

In a loving relationship, you should be free to be yourself. It's not going to work if a man feels judged or chastised for looking at other women or his porn use. Its not going to work if a woman takes that personally and feels disrespected or unloved because of it. What will work is shared views OR acceptance. So you have to find someone that fits with your views, or the couple must learn to accept things about each other that they don't like.

 

Marriage and long term relationships are as much about acceptance as they are about love. Because when you are truly accepted for who you are, what you like, how you feel.... it's awesome. In the beginning, you are happy and overlook flaws. After a few years, you realize there are things you don't like about your spouse, and they realize the same about you. This when there are arguments and power struggles, because both partners are trying to change the other into what they want them to be. If you make it through that (and many couples don't), next comes acceptance. You accept that there are bad sides to each of you and you live with it. You aren't bothered by his porn use because you don't feel threatened. You don't get all upset if he looks at a woman walking by because you accept that men like looking at women, and he's with you. He accepts that you have emotions and has figured out that just sitting there and listening while you vent is all he really has to do, lol.

 

So for those that are hurt by their man looking or fantasizing about others, you can:

1) find a man that doesn't do that (it's going to be hard)

2) struggle with a man that does those things, and feels he must lie & hide it to appease you (no honesty or trust)

3) guilt a man into doing what you want and have him resent you later

4) open your mind and learn to accept things about men that you don't like (this takes some women many years)

5) be alone or attempt to change your sexual orientation

6) wait for men to see the light and realize they only want to look/think/ fantasize about you FOREVER (good luck with that)

 

I don't think it's right to try to change men into what we want them to be, and its wrong for them to try to change us into what they want us to be. Men have a right to be upset when women try to mold their thoughts and attitudes toward sex and women. Just like we have a right to be upset if they want to mold our bodies into plastic play toys. If women want a successful and honest relationship, accept your mans sexuality, even if it includes thoughts of others. If men want a successful and honest relationship with women, accept our feelings and emotions (even if you do not agree) and accept our bodies even if they don't meet porn star standards.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I think I have found the female version of me.

 

I agree, and I hope you noticed that I responded to her negative and closed minded generalization just the same way I respond to yours.

 

Also, please note the ABSENCE of "you go, girl" from NN's fellow women. Nary a one.

[Woggle]

I agree, and I hope you noticed that I responded to her negative and closed minded generalization just the same way I respond to yours.

 

Also, please note the ABSENCE of "you go, girl" from NN's fellow women. Nary a one.

 

I agree. Believe it or not I understand where she is coming from. When you have been hurt by the opposite sex it really does start to feel like they are all like that but I do notice the lack of you go girl kind of statements.

[xxoo]

I agree. Believe it or not I understand where she is coming from. When you have been hurt by the opposite sex it really does start to feel like they are all like that but I do notice the lack of you go girl kind of statements.

 

Good!

 

.................

[xxoo]

But when you get into territory about how people should "control" their thoughts to conform to what YOU deem appropriate, or concepts such as "unnecessary masturbation" (and I assume it would be you and those of like mind who would be the arbiters of what constitutes necessary and unnecessary masturbation) you veer off to a place where few here will choose to follow you.

 

Yes, that's where I jump ship.

 

I, too, have concerns about porn, and its effects on modern culture.

 

But if you asked a group of (honest) men 50 years ago: do you think of sex with other women while in a happily monogamous relationship? I am sure the overwhelming answer would be YES.

 

Nancy Friday's books give us a snapshot of men and women's sexual fantasies pre-internet porn. It isn't completely a matter of speculation.

 

I am curious about what constitutes "unnecessary masturbation".

 

But I'm really, really glad that neither my partner nor I feels ANY need to censor our sexual thoughts. I am grateful that my partner accepts me as I am--dirty mind and all

[Els]

I don't think it's right to try to change men into what we want them to be, and its wrong for them to try to change us into what they want us to be. Men have a right to be upset when women try to mold their thoughts and attitudes toward sex and women. Just like we have a right to be upset if they want to mold our bodies into plastic play toys. If women want a successful and honest relationship, accept your mans sexuality, even if it includes thoughts of others. If men want a successful and honest relationship with women, accept our feelings and emotions (even if you do not agree) and accept our bodies even if they don't meet porn star standards.

 

I agree with your approach for the most part, but the bolded just seems strange to me. This women should do one thing, men should do another approach implies, what, that men have perfect bodies that meet porn star standards, so women do not need to 'accept their bodies as they are'? Or that men do not need to 'accept a woman's sexuality'? I don't think the two issues should be related - rather, they should be addressed separately by each couple. The 'accepting spouse's body' part should be done to a reasonable degree and compromise by each partner... and the 'accepting sexuality' part done by each as well. I don't see how accepting one's partner's fantasies is the corollary to the partner accepting a non-porn body - surely the corollary to the partner accepting a non-porn body is YOU accepting a non-porn body?

[vsmini]

Negative Nancy has to believe what she believe so she can protect herself. You can see it a mile away. She has to believe the world is like that so it fits in with her reality.

She obviously has been through the dredges with men and has lost all faith and then carelessly assumes everything is like that. She even takes on the all knowing wizard quality of acting all high and mighty and acts like she's doing us the favor of telling us "like it is." She wants us to think we're in denial but in reality, she's the one that has a few things to figure out.

 

I feel sorry for her. NN - hopefully you're bubble is popped soon. I'm guessing by your username even you know you're a bit off on your perspective.

[Untouchable_Fire]

Sorry, but I would never think about sleeping with another man while in a relationship. My only passing thoughts when a shirtless guy appears before my vision are " Oh, nice body", or " He's hot" but these are more in reference to how visually stimulating they are and not sexual in nature.

Am I the only one who thinks like this?

When I'm in a relationship my SO takes first place and I have never really looked at other people.

 

I'm the same way. I always suspected it wasn't the norm, but I never want to change that about me. I love the fact that my man is THE man in my eyes.

 

I'm the same way. I can admire someone in passing, or even drool at Ryan Gosling, but I don't sit there wondering what it would be like to sex them. The only person I'm interested in even thinking about sexing is my SO.

 

I'm the same, I only fantasise about my partner, because he's my biggest turn on.

IME, some men fantasise about screwing other women, and some don't, some will have fleeting thoughts about wondering what it would be like with other women but don't have full on fantasies about them, some will fantasise just about their partner. This is the same for men and women IME.

 

I'm not sure if this is worth saying or not.

 

I've been the kind of guy that fantasizes from time to time during a relationship. Since I don't act out on it... I don't consider it a big deal.

 

However, in my current relationship... it's been going for almost 2 years... and I've had a big fat ZERO regarding fantasies. I only think about my fiance. I can barely even remember porn.

 

I think the main factor in this is my sex life. She want's more sex from me than I can provide. At the 2 year mark I think we will be averaging 3 times a day... I'm almost scared when the weekends come. I plan dates and activities to make sure I'm not having my clothes ripped off.

 

End result is that I don't think of anyone else.... ever! I'm not sure if this is because I'm physically never horny... or that emotionally I feel desired.

[Quiet Storm]

I agree with your approach for the most part, but the bolded just seems strange to me. This women should do one thing, men should do another approach implies, what, that men have perfect bodies that meet porn star standards, so women do not need to 'accept their bodies as they are'? Or that men do not need to 'accept a woman's sexuality'? I don't think the two issues should be related - rather, they should be addressed separately by each couple. The 'accepting spouse's body' part should be done to a reasonable degree and compromise by each partner... and the 'accepting sexuality' part done by each as well. I don't see how accepting one's partner's fantasies is the corollary to the partner accepting a non-porn body - surely the corollary to the partner accepting a non-porn body is YOU accepting a non-porn body?

 

Of course I think it should go both ways. Those are just areas that I think many couples have problems with. Men and women aren't necessarily concerned with the same things. I doubt many women want their man to have a porn body, but many women think that's what their man wants, so I was just focusing on specific issues that I see many couples having. I think some men feel they have to censor their "truth" and women feel they can't express their feelings about how that "truth" makes them feel. Listening, talking, reassuring...on BOTH sides can help both partners feel loved and accepted.

 

It seems that many men are reluctant to be totally honest about their sexual thoughts and porn use because they don't want to deal with their woman's emotions on the matter. They think she'll make too much of a big deal about it. Its a very common scenario in LTRs or marriages. Men will keep their thoughts/fantasies to themselves, and then she'll catch him looking at the waitress or see his internet history, she'll get all upset and hurt, and he'll lie or swear to stop just so she'll stop crying about it. She'll compare herself to the other women and feel like she's not good enough or assume he's not happy with her. Then he'll be sneaky and keep doing it because to him, it's no big deal and she's overreacting. She'll sense that and start snooping ... and the trust is gone. Of course there are many other scenarios involving dishonesty that can happen in a relationship along these same lines, but this thread is about men and their thoughts and fantasies.

 

I think it's much better to be honest with each other, even if the truth hurts. Instead of trying to control or change your partner, accept them for who they are. If you can't accept them, end it. If "who they are" does not meet your standards, or if they cross your personal boundaries...end the relationship. If your man thinking about other girls once in awhile causes you immense emotional pain, end it. Changing, controlling or attempting to mold your partner into what you want will backfire and result in resentment, lies and lack of trust. Acceptance doesn't always come quickly. Its a process, but when you get there it's awesome.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

I wasn't talking about you. I think NN is very much a female version of me.

 

Sorry Woggle. I thought you were talking about me. But thanks for clearing it up.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

FAR too difficult to battle through the downpour of self-righteousness that typically results. I don't know how you and NN became the way you are, but I'm fairly curious about it--I'd love to read your origin stories.

 

You mean the kind of self-righteousness that comes from dodgingly calling people man/woman haters without really having the courage to just say who you mean EnigmaticClarity? Lets be honest, no one in this threads hates men or women. There are very few people that i would describe that way on this board. At the moment, I can think of one person. But they did not post in this thread.

 

If you are going to make a claim, then don't be a coward about it. Outright say it. Own it.

 

By the way, I think we all are the way we are because of our life experiences. Are you suggesting you and other members of the board are *better* compared to specfically pointing out me and NN because you simply think you're more right? Again, talk about self-righteousness.

[xxoo]

It seems that many men are reluctant to be totally honest about their sexual thoughts and porn use because they don't want to deal with their woman's emotions on the matter. They think she'll make too much of a big deal about it. Its a very common scenario in LTRs or marriages. Men will keep their thoughts/fantasies to themselves, and then she'll catch him looking at the waitress or see his internet history, she'll get all upset and hurt, and he'll lie or swear to stop just so she'll stop crying about it. She'll compare herself to the other women and feel like she's not good enough or assume he's not happy with her. Then he'll be sneaky and keep doing it because to him, it's no big deal and she's overreacting. She'll sense that and start snooping ... and the trust is gone. Of course there are many other scenarios involving dishonesty that can happen in a relationship along these same lines, but this thread is about men and their thoughts and fantasies.

 

I think it's much better to be honest with each other, even if the truth hurts. Instead of trying to control or change your partner, accept them for who they are. If you can't accept them, end it. If "who they are" does not meet your standards, or if they cross your personal boundaries...end the relationship. If your man thinking about other girls once in awhile causes you immense emotional pain, end it. Changing, controlling or attempting to mold your partner into what you want will backfire and result in resentment, lies and lack of trust. Acceptance doesn't always come quickly. Its a process, but when you get there it's awesome.

 

I agree that getting very upset about this issue will teach a man to tell you what you want to hear. It can be a barrier to true emotional and mental intimacy.

 

And compatibility is very important! But different does not necessarily equal wrong.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Mme. Chaucer

No, I am not preaching. I am not on any soap box. You inspire me to try to get you to look at things from a different perspective, not necessarily mine.

 

With respect, your posting style on the subject of porn / fantasies / sexuality really does come off as preachy. I am not saying you intend that, but for many of us on the receiving end - it does.

 

Mme, the irnoy is that I always found you to be preachy. However, I never thought it was condusive to the discussion to call you out for it. Sure, sometimes I disagree with you and that's what I usually try to keep a focus on . Not critize you for what your posting style apears to be toward me.

 

 

You are extremely passionate and invested in your point of view, and as I have said before, you make a lot of valid points that I agree with. But when you get into territory about how people should "control" their thoughts to conform to what YOU deem appropriate, or concepts such as "unnecessary masturbation" (and I assume it would be you and those of like mind who would be the arbiters of what constitutes necessary and unnecessary masturbation) you veer off to a place where few here will choose to follow you.

 

I never said that it was about people controlling themselves based on what *I* deemed appropiate. Anymore then your opionions are about everyone conforming to what you think. What an unfair statement for you to single me out and act like I act any different then anyone else here, even you. What I did say is that we live in a world of much excess today. And that I think people are indulging in that excess in food, in debt and in sex. However, the sexual indulgences are much harder to see. That's what I said. I do think that unnecessary masturbation occurs today. I bet there are more people sitting online at this very moment masturbating when a short 15 years ago, they might have been doing something else. How is that a commentary on any specific person and what they should or shouldn't be doing or what level of masturbation is "okay". You took my broad context explanation and attempted to turn it into a personal commentary for any one person.

 

Now you say you agree with some of the things I say. It's funny to me that you never choose to say what you agree with.

 

Of course you are entitled to your beliefs, but I don't think that you are correct in your judgements about people who believe differently than you do.

 

And what are my judgements about people who believe differently than me?

 

As someone recently posted, there ARE men who believe the same way you do, especially in certain fundamentalist religions. Lusting in ones heart, and all of that. But I do think successful relationships will be very difficult for you if you believe that your partner needs to be accountable to you for his thoughts.

 

Beliefs about this don't have to be tied to "fundamentalist" religions. And my experience with this has been that when people use strong words like "fundamentalist" anything, it's to present a false picture and to over state something to make it seem overly extreme.

 

Sucessful relationships are difficult for everyone. It requires and give and take and navigating a lot of differences that will always come up between a couple. I am not a special case. The fact that you attempt to paint me as such, knowing nothing about how I conduct my relationships or my relationships history says more about you Mme, then it does any truth about me.

 

I also don't know why you keep insisting on making this a personal commentary on me instead of being more direct and honest in just discussing the topic at hand. I find that disingenuous. Have I ever once made a comment about you and your personal relationships?

[Mme. Chaucer]

DY, you are very defensive. I am taking issue with your "platform." Not with you personally.

 

When you say things like people need to "control," or label masturbation as "unnecessary" (or, necessary), you are implying that there exists a standard for what would be "correct" with regards to controlling thoughts or when / how to masturbate. I've read a lot of your posts, and you are very clear that YOUR standard IS the one that's correct.

 

You're certainly right - there are people sitting around jerking off to the Internet right now instead of playing baseball or whatever. There was a lot of chicken choking pre-Internet. (Read "Portnoy's Complaint")

 

But, DY - there are people sitting around on the Internet arguing about sexual fantasies right now instead of doing other things. US!

 

Is that bad?

 

Or is it only "bad" if it involves something sexual?

[Mme. Chaucer]

DY, I really have no horse in this race, except for my fervent belief that people must not be put in a position to be guilted or shamed or held accountable for what transpires within the privacy of their thoughts. That's damaging.

 

As I have said before, if it impinges the person's ability to be present and partner in a relationship, it IS a problem.

 

This could pertain just as much to a person who can't or won't stop thinking about work or golf when it's time to connect with a loved one as to one who is lost in sexual fantasies.

 

If a person is unavailable, there is a problem.

 

That's what I believe, anyway.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

DY, you are very defensive. I am taking issue with your "platform." Not with you personally.

 

I often feel like I am put in a position to be defensive on this board. I say something and people come up with all kinds of comments about who I am and what I think that don't relate to what I truely think or have said. And I believe you've done the same thing in your post Mme.

 

When you say things like people need to "control," or label masturbation as "unnecessary" (or, necessary), you are implying that there exists a standard for what would be "correct" with regards to controlling thoughts or when / how to masturbate. I've read a lot of your posts, and you are very clear that YOUR standard IS the one that's correct.

 

This is exactly what I am talking about Mme. Taking my comments and twisting them up to suit your presonal agenda about what *you* think my "platform" is. Not based on what I actually said but based on assumptions you make.

 

I never said what people need to do. If I have, show me where. I expressed what I though about the world in general. I think we live in a time of excess. I think that excess is not just apparent in the amount of food we consume, but the amount of sex we are also consuming. I never told a specific person what they need to do or that their masturbation habits where "unnecessary". I did realistically say that with the advent of the internet and technology, we got more people jerking off then back in the day when their time probably would have been spent doing something else. What is your issue with any of that?

 

 

You're certainly right - there are people sitting around jerking off to the Internet right now instead of playing baseball or whatever. There was a lot of chicken choking pre-Internet. (Read "Portnoy's Complaint")

 

Where did I say there wasn't a lot of chicken choking pre-internet?

 

Do you disagree with the statement that with the advent of technology and internet porn that people are looking at more porn and spending more time masturbating? Yes or no.

 

But, DY - there are people sitting around on the Internet arguing about sexual fantasies right now instead of doing other things. US!

 

Is that bad?

 

Or is it only "bad" if it involves something sexual?

 

Well once again, I never said anything was "bad" or "good". I think these topics are much more complicated then to be reduced to "bad" or "good". More often then not, other people break down these issues into those terms more then anything I've ever done.

 

This also is simpy a deflection to ignore the honesty in my previous statement specific to porn, porn use and how it's changed.

 

DY, I really have no horse in this race, except for my fervent belief that people must not be put in a position to be guilted or shamed or held accountable for what transpires within the privacy of their thoughts. That's damaging.

 

We both have fundementally different beliefs on this issue. While I would say that it's not right to mock or make fun of someone for their thoughts. I do think people should be held accountable for their thoughts. The most overly simplistic example of this is child molesters. Where the mind goes, the person follows. Your mind is not so disassociated from the rest of your body that it's okay to have no control over your mind while maintaining a firm control only on the outside. And that's been my point from the beginning. People have control over their mental focus. More then they know. They can't control every thought that pops into their head but they can control what they do with that thought. Do they indulge in it, or not. And I think what is causing a lot of our social demise is the expectation that we keep hidden lives in our minds but express a different self to the world. When we should be improving ourselves all around and maintaing control over not just our actions, but our thoughts as well. No one is going to ever be perfect in this regard, but that doesn't mean you say "oh well!".

 

As I have said before, if it impinges the person's ability to be present and partner in a relationship, it IS a problem.

 

Guess what? I agree. But I also know that works both ways.

 

This could pertain just as much to a person who can't or won't stop thinking about work or golf when it's time to connect with a loved one as to one who is lost in sexual fantasies.

 

If a person is unavailable, there is a problem.

 

That's what I believe, anyway.

 

Again, I agree.

[joystickd]

 

. I did realistically say that with the advent of the internet and technology, we got more people jerking off then back in the day when their time probably would have been spent doing something else. What is your issue with any of that?

 

I need statistics on this increase in jerking and the correlation of the advent of technology. Sometimes a mental picture is a hell of a lot better than a net pic

[xxoo]

Do you disagree with the statement that with the advent of technology and internet porn that people are looking at more porn and spending more time masturbating? Yes or no.

 

Having gone through puberty and adolescence pre-internet porn, I'm going to guess no. We didn't need porn to be obsessed with sex and masturbation.