Male psychology

[zengirl]

I think I understand exactly.

 

I NEED to be accountable to MYSELF for my interior life. I've posted here before that I am a recovering addict. I have had trouble with depression too. There are lots of cliches that are bandied about in the "recovery community" and one of them is "stinking thinking." If I let myself go down that road, I am headed to a place I don't want to go.

 

But, I would never presume to hold anyone else accountable to me for their fantasies, or thoughts, or for MY standards regarding what they should or shouldn't be thinking about to rule. And it's not okay for anyone to presume to do that to me, either.

 

I've said it several times on this thread, and I will say it one more time (last time, I promise): if somebody's interior life renders them unavailable or otherwise lacking in ANY of their important relationships, then it's time for them to take a good look at that, and to do something about it. Obsessions and addictions, including to porn, would certainly fall into that category in my opinion.

 

Yes, that's a great example of what I meant -- it is more about maintaining a healthy mind. And I agree that, IMO, accountability for the mind -- and really every part of the self -- is something you hold yourself to, not something others hold you to.

 

I think society can hold people accountable for their interactions within society, but nothing else. And thoughts may have a type of 'action' to them -- that I can imagine -- but they aren't actual interactions with society. They can CAUSE interactions with society or REFLECT it, but I think it's very presumptuous to say that a particular thought causes or reflects something particular every time, since all those thoughts are traveling through different frameworks with different contexts.

 

We can perhaps cull data and find patterns: i.e. when most people think ____________, they are more likely to do ______________, but I think it's reasonably likely people will often defy patterning and the act will ultimately be fruitless in many cases. Also, I don't think utilizing purely our own experiences is a good way to develop true data since our experiences are filtered through our own perceptions, colored by our own thoughts, and will reflect the truth of our minds as much as what is actually happening around us. I truly believe NN and DY believe the negative things they fear about men (not that both posters believe the same things) because of their experiences and their own perceptions, and I think their ideas seem bizarre because of my experiences and perceptions, which are directly contrary. There is no "right" there, as none of us has actual data---and any data garnered would be imperfect, but we have literally nothing on this stuff.

[fitgirl]

Is it true that even in the happiest of relationships, men still wonder about other girls and what sex would be like with them?

 

you got issues

[Ross MwcFan]

you got issues

 

That's a bit of a rude comment, fitgirl.

[Ross MwcFan]

There is a large degree of truth to this that I cannot ignore. Truth is brilliant

 

When I was 16, I came into possession of my first porn CD (it was called Big Bubble Butt Brazilian Orgy 2 ). I had seen a porn before, but didn't really care much for it. I had always liked girls, but given that I was an oddball as a kid, I was often teased and never responded well, ending up with very poor self-esteem.

 

I became hooked on it for a few years. I had amassed gigabytes of it, and DVDs, I even had Traci Lords pornos before I knew that she was the same age as I was in those pornos (was quite shocking that story). I imagine that if I had gotten over my fear of talking to women then, I would have fared better, and would not be a virgin, despite being autistic. Eventually, I got rid of all of my porn and severely cut my use back, as I was going to uni, and I had young female cousins coming to live with me and wanted to set more of an example.

 

It's daunting talking women sometimes when you don't know what you're doing. I think you can forgive a naive young man for turning to porn every now and then to rub one out .

 

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More in line with this thread, I want to say that Male sexuality is very misunderstood, by both men and women. I feel that it was not meant to be dwindling in front of a screen while watching porn, which is what we have been reduced to. I have watched porn, still do occasionally, and I have no guilt about this at all. However, by the same token, I have no care for porn and would much rather prefer to be out there in real time finding a good woman to have fun with and to give her joy in equal measure.

 

Some men do have a wandering eye. It's difficult to have under complete control, and I think that women do get unnecessarily paranoid about that, but at the same time I understand perfectly their point of view about that.

 

As for fantasies, well, everybody has fantasies. Some are dark, deprived and dirty, and others aren't.

 

You should've just put away somewhere in your room.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Quiet Storm

There are men with pedophilia that do not act on their thoughts for their entire lives. They are attracted to children and fantasize about them, but never molest one child.

 

Yes, I know there are men like that. However, what person would want to even be with another person that even fantasized about children? What person, men or woman, would call such a person a good one and want to be intimate with them? Would you be okay with being with a man that thought of children? I wouldn't.

 

Do you think people that fantasize about children stop at images in their head? Or do you think they seek out material of children in sexual situations? Are people that don't commit sexual acts against children themselves okay as long as they only look at material that does? Is that self control?

 

People do have control over their mental focus, but why should we attempt to control our thoughts unless they are detrimental to us?

 

Exactly. People do have control over their mental focus. Just as we have control over what we eat and what we do to our bodies and what we do inside our heads. Taking care of your body is a positive. How could taking care of your mind also not be a positive? How could exercising self control of both mind and body not be a good thing? That's all I am saying.

 

By the way, how do you know what thoughts are detrimental to an indivdual and which aren't? Is something only considered detrimental if it's acted out physically? I am not saying a thought of a nother person is detrimental. I am saying our culture that promotes an over indulgence in sex and fantasy has the potential to be detrimental. Whether that's on a social scale or a personal one. Notice the key word being "potential".

 

We use cognitive behavioral therapy on people with OCD because their thoughts are overwhelming to them and making them miserable. The average guy is not going to be negatively affected by fantasizing about the girl at the gym. In fact, he will see it as a harmless and exciting thought, until he is berated and shamed for it.

 

Well, I never ever said someone deserves to be berated and shamed for a thought about an attractive legal person. I however have simply said that we live in a cultural of abundance. And sexual abundance is included in that. Even through the idea of fantasy. That's all I am really saying. Not any of this other stuff you are insinuating.

 

DY, you say that you are not the thought police, but why do you suggest re-directing thoughts and not indulging in them?

 

Simply Quiet Storm, your question isn't asked with honesty. You set it up so that I come off as the "thought police" from the very begining. Why do you bother to ask me questions that you will only look down on anyway?

 

My comments about personal mental control and re-directing thoughts goes in line with I think is a culture that encourages an over indulgence in "fantasy". Just as our culture encourages an over indulgence in food and other

 

Granted, mental control is really difficult. That's why I think people freak out when I mentioned it. But it makes sense. We pride people on their ability to maintain control of their bodies. People that work out, athletes, people that train for the Olympics. Why wouldn't we pride people on their ability to be in control and exercise control of their mental facilities.

 

Do you expect your standards for "excess" apply to everyone?

 

What is my standard of "excess" anyway Quiet Storm? Have I ever given a detailed map and said "these are the rules you must all apply too!" No. All I have ever said, from the very beginning is that we live in a culture of over abudance. We have people in dept, we have people with all sorts of addictions and we have a country that is over weight. All I have ever said is that sex and sexuality has become part of our excess. And people have tried to tell me that because I said this, I am all the sudden the thought police. Since I never once suggested a "standard" for excess in this entire talk, how can you even ask me that?

 

It seems that you must think these thoughts are bad, or you would not think they need to be re-directed.

 

Then you haven't read my posts in this thread if that's the conclusion you came to. In this very thread, I have said that fantasy IS healthy. That it's natural to think of other people as attractive. Once again, all I have said is that I think that culturally we also have sexual/fantasy excess. It's just that simple.

 

Don't you believe that each individual person has the right to decide their own standards, boundaries and values? I believe that.

 

Yes I do. Where have I said that people shouldn't decided their own standards and boundaries?

 

I think the healthy way is to keep your boundaries strong, and abide by your own values & standards. Do you think it may be healthier to not concern yourself with the thoughts and behavior of others, but instead choose to not associate with those whose values are not compatible with your own?

 

Didn't you just say above, "each individual person has the right to decide their own standards, boundaries, and values?" If you truly believe that, why would you even ask me this? Why would *you*, believing what you do, care how others or who others choose to associate with or care what others decide to talk about?

 

If you truly believed what you wrote above, then would you not be concerning yourself with what I personally thought?

 

We are a nation of excess, but the amount of [insert vice here] that each of us decides to indulge in is our own personal choice. Any negative effects that we feel from our choice is our consequence. Hard drugs are illegal, but we still have junkies because people are going to do what they want to do. The junkies family can preach all they want, but eventually they realize they are wasting their breath. The only think that will change their behavior is feeling the consequences.

 

Couldn't agree more. Never said any different.

 

As for male fantasies, if a man is honest about them, but feels attacked or shamed by his girlfriend, what behavior do you think he will change? Do you think he will stop fantasizing? Or do you think he will stop being honest about it?

 

When did I ever advocate attacking or shaming someone?

 

Do I think a man being honest about his fantasies and his girlfriend freaking out is going to make him feel open and connected to her? No.

 

Do I think a man that indulges in fantasy but expects his own girlfriend to be vunerable and open with him when *he* wants, creates a safe place for her either? No.

 

Yes, he can decide to not be honest with her. But that doesn't mean he is right to do so. And he is knowingly making a choice about the level of honesty in their relationship for his own benefit more then he is making that choice for their relationship.

 

If your man admitted that he occasionally fantasized about his friends girlfriend, you would have every right to feel hurt, angry and jealous. But say this man genuinely loves you and wants to be with you. Say he reassures you that these thoughts are fleeting and meaningless. Say he is a perfect boyfriend in every other way. How would you react? Shouldn't you trust his ability to decipher the meaning of his own thoughts? Shouldn't you have faith in his feelings about you and the relationship? Does the fact that he has those thoughts make him untrustworthy?

 

Simply, yes, the fact that he does have those thoughts does give him the potential to be untrustworthy. It's not a big leap to make.

 

Bascially, whenever you try to advise others on this topic, you seem to think that men should be given everything. And anything a woman could want is not as important. You often lecture about how men need this or that or what is natural for them and how women need to just understand that. I however very rarely see you advise men of the same. Do you know who more often then not is the one making the compromises for the relationship? Especially when it comes to porn? Women. I hear so many women that hate their husbands/boyfriends porn use but they put up with it. They live everyday knowing he's thinking of banging one out to some pornstar over her, the real woman in his life. I hear very little of men making the same kind of sacrifices in return. The lectures you give? It's all about what wome need to do and give up to make men happy. How women need to change and men should just be themselves at their "natural" state.How women need to curb their feelings and emotions because that only makes him "lie" and that's okay. But you never say such things to men. You never talk about how their actions have an impact or how their actions cause women to react a certain way. No. It's only about what men need and want. And if men want to picture banging your best friend or pornstars, you'res suppose to think they are wonderful and spread your legs for him. Well the real world doesn't work that way. Women are people too. Women have feelings too. I guess your just better then the rest of us women that want our feelings to be counted.

 

I understand that you feel that indulging in these thoughts is detrimental to relationships. And that's fine for YOU. Set your boundaries, stick to your standards and find a guy that doesn't indulge.

 

Who said I would do anything different? Why do you always feel like you need to give advice for how others should live their lives while at the same time, making the arguement for "live and let live" whenver I share my opinion on things around here? You love to share your opinion. You share it plenty. Why is it right when you do it and it comes down to "live and let live" when I do? It's hypocrtical Quiest Storm.

 

If you are fine with your husband thinking about banging other women, I don't really care. That's great. I wouldn't even dare start to lecture to you how to conduct your personal relationship specifically. I would never tell you that was right or wrong for you.

 

We will all run into things in life that we believe are wrong. We all wish that there were things we could change about the world. Sometimes, the healthy thing to do is to just accept things and say "Oh well". Not because your feelings aren't valid, but because that inner conflict will bring you down.

 

Who are you to deteremine what I should be saying "oh well" to and not? Aren't you the big enforcer of letting other people set their own standards and values and live their own lives?

 

And its your job to nurture and care for yourself. Putting tons of energy and effort into things that can't be changed will eventually wear you down and make you bitter. You may be passionate, bright eyed and bushytailed about things now, and post and blog to your heart's content. But I suspect as years go by, and you become battle weary and jaded, you will eventually accept that most men are unlikely to change for the "better", as you say.

 

I never said masturbation or fantasy was going to change. But men and women have come a long way because of the communciation and struggle to know each other better. Relationships are ever changing and evolving. That's never goint to stop. This issue is too important to just say "oh well" and sit back and take whatever men dish out because it's "natural". Like what women feel isn't natural in response to this whole issue?

 

You can suspect all the things you want. I think it personally makes you feel better to think about me becoming bitter and jaded. But that's not who I am or who I ever will be. But if you want to talk about how you think I will end up because it makes you feel better, you go ahead.

 

But you know what? Men really aren't that bad as they are, fantasies, porn and all. They do not need our guidance or input to be good men. They may not be exactly as we would prefer, but they are our men. Take 'em or leave 'em. Then maybe you'll finally say "Oh well".

 

Men are pretty darn great. That doesn't mean they are perfect or that it's not worth talking about issues that come up between men adn women. But you know what? I know that it's made me a better woman to be sensitive to things concerning men and to understand them better. And I think it makes men better men to be sensitive to things that concern women and to understand us better too. So I'm okay with you having a "take 'em or leave 'em" attitude. At the end of the day, I think both genders are better people for learning to relate, respect and care about the other gender and treat them how they want to be treated.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Mme. Chaucer;3819175]If you find sexual fantasies in general analogous to pedophilia, then there is really no point in talking about this with you. Plus, you backpedal whenever you are confronted with some of your ideas; I have not twisted anything that you've said, I'm sure.

 

Give me a break. This is completely disingenous on your part Mme. Chaucer. When I talked about the pedophilia examples I said clearly that it was an extreme example but the only one I could think of.

 

Show me where I backpedaled? The reality is that you have claimed I said things that I NEVER said. You attempt to attach thoughts where I never said such things. And that's simply wrong. But please, if I am backpeddling, I'd like to see an example of that. I encourage you to point it out since you are making the accusation.

 

But … it's a no-win game. You CANNOT hold people accountable for what their thoughts are. Try all you like; what you will do is promote LESS sharing, more distance, and LYING. Most of us need our privacy and our little secret lives inside of our heads - some more than others.

 

Maturity has pretty much erased my insecurities in that department, and I am very thankful. I have a lot of other things to concern myself with than what my husband is thinking about in the privacy of his own mind.

 

Being critical and shaming of someone's thoughts WILL make them less open to you. But self indulging in every sexually available female also doesn't exactly promote closeness and vulernability in a relationships either. When I was in relationships with men that looked at porn, I never shamed them for it. But I didn't feel like being vulnerable with them either. I didn't feel connected to them. I couldn't. It's not fair to spend your time indulging in other women and then expecting your woman to feel cloes to you. Just like men can feel shamed for having fantasies of other women by their woman, women can feel shamed for men having fantasies of other super worked images and ideals of women by their man. Why do we tell women to be so sensitive to men but we don't tell men to be sensitive to women? Why do we say "x,y and z only leads a man to lie." but we don't tell men that, "x,y and z only leads a woman to feel less cloe to you."

 

I'm glad you are a mature person Mme C. I am too. But I don't think my insecurities are wrong. Or any less natural then anything a man can feel. And I don't know why we expect women to be the strong ones and tell them they better do this and that to hold onto their man but we never tell men what they have to do or what they should do to make their girl feel safe in their relationship with him. All it ever comes down to is what is "natural" for men and how men don't have to exercise any self control short of banging other women and how what his needs are and how greatful you as a woman should feel that he isn't "physically" out sleeping with other women . It's like we think women should be happy with table scraps men throw our way.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

ThaWholigan

was the same age as I was in those pornos (was quite shocking that story). I imagine that if I had gotten over my fear of talking to women then, I would have fared better, and would not be a virgin, despite being autistic. Eventually, I got rid of all of my porn and severely cut my use back, as I was going to uni, and I had young female cousins coming to live with me and wanted to set more of an example.

 

It's daunting talking women sometimes when you don't know what you're doing. I think you can forgive a naive young man for turning to porn every now and then to rub one out .

 

I imagine that happens to a lot of young men Wholigan. They don't know how to deal with women so they go for the short term easy pleasure. But I think if there was something where men could really learn about REAL women and real experiences, it would be ultimately healthy for young men.

 

And I DO understand why a young man turns to porn. I do get it. I don't blame him for it. I would never expect a young man to never masturbate or get excited over a porn video. But I do think it can be unhealthy because so many ideals in porn about women are just really bad. AndI think so many men are leaning on it more then is healthy.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------

 

More in line with this thread, I want to say that Male sexuality is very misunderstood, by both men and women. I feel that it was not meant to be dwindling in front of a screen while watching porn, which is what we have been reduced to. I have watched porn, still do occasionally, and I have no guilt about this at all. However, by the same token, I have no care for porn and would much rather prefer to be out there in real time finding a good woman to have fun with and to give her joy in equal measure.

 

I so agree with this! Men sexuality is SOOOOOO much better then what porn tells us it is. Men are SOOOOO much better then sitting infront of their screens rubbing one out. But so many men seem to believe that their sexuality is defined by porn. I hear so many guys say things like, "I'm a guy, of course I look at porn." Men are so much better then that though. I just wish more men saw that. But you certainly do! Thanks for always being honest about your thoughts and feelings on this topic.

 

 

Some men do have a wandering eye. It's difficult to have under complete control, and I think that women do get unnecessarily paranoid about that, but at the same time I understand perfectly their point of view about that.

 

Simply, it hurts to be with a man that has a wandering eye. *shrug*. It doesn't feel good. Am I saying a man should never look at another woman again? No. I just think there is something to be said for self control. That's all.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

zengirl

As a Buddhist, I do believe thoughts are a part of our view just as much as our actions. It just makes sense to me anyway. Our thoughts are a part of, and a product of, who we are, and we should absolutely (IMO) be held accountable for our thoughts, though that means something else to me than it does to DY.

 

To me, it means our thoughts are directed by our overall worldview, integrated into everything we do, and help to create our reality day-to-day as well as our karma. To me, it means that getting your thoughts directed in a positive way will produce better results and keep you healthy, as a person, and that someone with unhealthy thoughts (determined solely by how they effect that person; i.e. do they create anxiety? hinder relationships? diminish empathy, self esteem, graciousness, kindness, etc?) will also have unhealthy actions and an unhappy life.

 

Actually Zengirl, I would agree with all that.

 

I think the child molestor idea is extreme. I think it's interesting that you picked one of the few ideas that are fairly universally (at least in modern societies) taboo, DY. Picking a taboo misses the whole point; you're trying to compare something that is very much not a taboo (porn, masturbation, fantasies) to something that is almost universally, or at least in our society and any society remotely like ours, a taboo. It just doesn't work, and it makes it a ridiculous strawman. Because taboos operate differently by their very nature. Because of the way socialization works.

 

I agree it's an extreme. I said it was extreme when I made the point. I picked it because it's such an obvious one. Most of us would be turned off by someone that even just thought about children sexually. Which is why I think it does work. Because most all of us are going to see it the same way when it comes to something like a child molestor. Its an easy example to showcase what I am talking about because most of us will hold the same opinion of a child molester. Thinks like porn, masturbation and fantasies have a wider range which wouldh ave been much harder for me to make an exxample out of any of those because all of us have our own ideas on that. I child molester example was really just used to point out that thougts matter.

 

At any rate, I think it's fine to judge a person by their thoughts, in terms of your interest/compatibility/faith in them, though you can never really know their thoughts, just the outward results or what they say of them, but I don't think it's okay to label thoughts as right or wrong. Everyone has their own karma and viewpoint.

 

Why isn't it okay to label other people's thoughts as right or wrong? Isn't that what we do here everyday?

[joystickd]

 

 

 

 

Bascially, whenever you try to advise others on this topic, you seem to think that men should be given everything. And anything a woman could want is not as important. You often lecture about how men need this or that or what is natural for them and how women need to just understand that. I however very rarely see you advise men of the same. Do you know who more often then not is the one making the compromises for the relationship? Especially when it comes to porn? Women. I hear so many women that hate their husbands/boyfriends porn use but they put up with it. They live everyday knowing he's thinking of banging one out to some pornstar over her, the real woman in his life. I hear very little of men making the same kind of sacrifices in return. The lectures you give? It's all about what wome need to do and give up to make men happy. How women need to change and men should just be themselves at their "natural" state.How women need to curb their feelings and emotions because that only makes him "lie" and that's okay. But you never say such things to men. You never talk about how their actions have an impact or how their actions cause women to react a certain way. No. It's only about what men need and want. And if men want to picture banging your best friend or pornstars, you'res suppose to think they are wonderful and spread your legs for him. Well the real world doesn't work that way. Women are people too. Women have feelings too. I guess your just better then the rest of us women that want our feelings to be counted.

Having a fantasy of someone else does not discount the other person in the relationship. Both genders do it so as a man I should feel the same way thinks about for example the guys on True Blood. No I don't because its counterproductive to sit and worry about what the other person in the relationship is always thinking about.

[joystickd]

Why isn't it okay to label other people's thoughts as right or wrong? Isn't that what we do here everyday?

In a way yes but the context of a forum discussion is different than the context of a relationship

[xxoo]

Then you haven't read my posts in this thread if that's the conclusion you came to. In this very thread, I have said that fantasy IS healthy. That it's natural to think of other people as attractive. Once again, all I have said is that I think that culturally we also have sexual/fantasy excess. It's just that simple.

 

But the question posed was simply: Do men in happy relationships think of sex with others? The answer to that question is "yes" for most men, but that doesn't mean it is in excess.

 

If the OP had asked if most men in happy relationships think about sex with other women excessively, the answer to that question is "no".

 

 

 

Do I think a man that indulges in fantasy but expects his own girlfriend to be vunerable and open with him when *he* wants, creates a safe place for her either? No.

 

DY, you need to experience a relationship with a man whose fantasies DO help create a safe place for you. A man who fantasizes, yes, but whose fantasies confirm how much he is into real women, with real bodies and real aging. Seeing women through my H's eyes has been a very positive experience for me.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

xxoo

But the question posed was simply: Do men in happy relationships think of sex with others? The answer to that question is "yes" for most men, but that doesn't mean it is in excess.

.

 

XXOO, I can answer the question that was asked any way I want. Just as you can. The OP asked a question and I answered in the best way that answered her for me. That yes, it can be natural to fantasize but that our culture authorizes a lot of sexual indulgence in fantasy. That answer seems to apply very nicely to what the OP was asking based on what I personally think is true. I won't tell you how to respond to the OP's question if you can give me the same grace.

 

 

If the OP had asked if most men in happy relationships think about sex with other women excessively, the answer to that question is "no".

 

Maybe the answer is "yes" though. You don't really know. Neither do I. All I know is that we live in a culture that demands alot of self indulgence.

 

DY, you need to experience a relationship with a man whose fantasies DO help create a safe place for you. A man who fantasizes, yes, but whose fantasies confirm how much he is into real women, with real bodies and real aging. Seeing women through my H's eyes has been a very positive experience for me.

 

XXOO, I am happy for you. I understand you are trying to help. But please don't tell me what I need and I won't do the same to you.The last thing I need is to be in another relationship with another guy that fantasizes about every woman that isn't me. And told how I just need to deal with it because a man simply can't be happy and grateful for what he has, he has to seek out other images of women to be feel like he can maintain a relationship with one woman.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Disenchantedly Yours

[Mme. Chaucer]

Exactly. People do have control over their mental focus. Just as we have control over what we eat and what we do to our bodies and what we do inside our heads. Taking care of your body is a positive. How could taking care of your mind also not be a positive? How could exercising self control of both mind and body not be a good thing? That's all I am saying.

 

Fine. Except you are saying all of this in a context where the question posed was, "Do men in happy relationships think of sex with others."

 

So, why is it up to YOU to determine that "thinking of sex with others" falls outside of the parameters of taking care of your mind, and even being positive? How can you be so presumptuous as to assume that YOUR narrow definitions of "self control" and "taking care" of ones mind should be universal, or even pertain to any person on Earth other than yourself?

 

If YOU feel that you need to get out your cat o' nine tails and thrash yourself if you have a sexy thought, go for it. You're not talking me into it, though! And when you talk about "a safe place," it doesn't sound like you'll be providing one for any average fellow. I promise you, your boyfriend or husband will soon learn that he needs to keep a lot of secrets from you, if he falls within the realm of "average" sexuality.

 

And I hope you get it sorted out before you have kids of your own - I shudder to imagine the dialogue that might ensue if you caught your son or daughter masturbating, especially if they had some dirty pictures or video in front of them. Yikes, bring on the shamefest.

 

Your repeated use of the analogy of pedophilia to normal sexual fantasies is concerning. No, I'm not going to "give you a break." Why don't YOU give it a break and give a little consideration to other peoples perspectives. I'm not asking you to change yours.

 

I assure you, most of us who sometimes have sexual fantasies about other people who are in happy and successful relationships with others who sometimes have sexual fantasies about other people feel just fine about how we take care of ourselves and our ability to control ourselves. Can you see how your constant haranguing about how this is somehow "bad" is kind of insulting?

 

 

By the way, how do you know what thoughts are detrimental to an indivdual and which aren't? Is something only considered detrimental if it's acted out physically? I am not saying a thought of a nother person is detrimental. I am saying our culture that promotes an over indulgence in sex and fantasy has the potential to be detrimental. Whether that's on a social scale or a personal one. Notice the key word being "potential".

 

So what? Everything has the potential to be detrimental, including drinking water and shopping. We're not talking about obsessions, addictions, victimizing other people. You can start a thread about those subject if you like, but it's not the subject of this one. Your paragraph above is an example of backpedalling. The question posed in this thread, again, was:

 

"Do men in happy relationships think of sex with others."

 

The answer is YES, whether you like it or not. And of course, there are exceptions.

 

And you think this is bad. I get it.

[Mme. Chaucer]

XXOO, I am happy for you. I understand you are trying to help. But please don't tell me what I need and I won't do the same to you.The last thing I need is to be in another relationship with another guy that fantasizes about every woman that isn't me. And told how I just need to deal with it because a man simply can't be happy and grateful for what he has, he has to seek out other images of women to be feel like he can maintain a relationship with one woman.

 

Did XXOO say that she was in a marriage with a man who fantasizes about every woman that is not her, and/ or that he is not happy and grateful for what he has?

 

Did ANYONE say that he, as a man "has to seek out images of other women to be feel like he can maintain a relationship with one woman?" Or that they are in a relationship with a man who feels that way?

 

Of course I know that there are men like that. I don't think XXOO's husband (who evidently is permitted by her to have fantasies and has chosen to share some of them, though I haven't got the impression that he is required to reveal all the contents of his mind to her … or I don't think they'd still be happily married) is one of them, judging from her posts.

 

My husband is not one of them either.

 

When you drag all people who have sexual fantasies into the realm of pedophiles or obsessive porn addicts, you are insulting - and lacking in understanding.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Mme. Chaucer

[xxoo]

The last thing I need is to be in another relationship with another guy that fantasizes about every woman that isn't me. And told how I just need to deal with it because a man simply can't be happy and grateful for what he has, he has to seek out other images of women to be feel like he can maintain a relationship with one woman.

 

Good lord, that sounds awful. I would hate that, too.

 

But that isn't my experience of a man in a happy marriage at all. Thank goodness!

[xxoo]

When you drag all people who have sexual fantasies into the realm of pedophiles or obsessive porn addicts, you are insulting - and lacking in understanding.

 

Or the realm of those living mostly in fantasy. Or the realm of those who fantasize because they don't want what they have.

 

Thank goodness there are more possibilities than those!

[zengirl]

I agree it's an extreme. I said it was extreme when I made the point. I picked it because it's such an obvious one. Most of us would be turned off by someone that even just thought about children sexually.

 

Let me explain my point about taboos. Taboos are so-named (real taboos in the anthropological sense) because society builds them into socialization and teaches EVERYONE in that society to believe it is wrong --- baring those on who socialization fails and become deviants, again using the word in the anthropological sense --- in order to protect society as a whole.

 

You cannot compare ANY taboo to something that bothers the individual. Taboos are so extreme because they are not about the individual; they are so extreme as to not even be CONSIDERED in an individual fashion. The reason folks have a kneejerk reaction to taboos is because they are sewn into the very fabric of our society and socialization. Plenty of things that many consider 'wrong' to varying degrees are not taboos. (Frankly, murder is not even a taboo, let alone sexual thoughts!)

 

Something that bothers the individual is not built into the framework of society and is not there to protect society. It does not operate by the same schema or on the same plane. You are essentially comparing oranges to nuclear fission---they have about as much in common, not just lending hyperbole to the discussion.

 

Why isn't it okay to label other people's thoughts as right or wrong? Isn't that what we do here everyday?

 

No, I don't think we do. We may label things as incorrect or correct, fair or unfair, but we aren't really moralizing here in terms of opinions. No one has an opinion or thought that is morally wrong until they put it to words or action. And besides, even if we WERE doing that, nothing written on this board is just a thought; it is verbalized -- in writing, not speech -- and words really are action. They are directed outward, unlike thoughts which make up our inner life.

 

I do not think it is okay to try to invade another person's inner life, and if they are kind enough to share that with you when they wouldn't with others (which is what intimacy is!), then I would find it quite odd to use that time to judge them and preach at them and especially shame them. Frankly, I would find that wrong; I think actions can be wrong. I think thoughts can be productive or unproductive, correct or incorrect (if we're talking thinking of facts or outcomes or such), healthy or unhealthy to the individual, depending on how they impact the individual (and yes, like the child molester thoughts, ANY thoughts that put you outside of the framework of the society which you could not escape would feel like a hindrance, generally; that is generally seen as a kind of madness), but to try to control or label what other people are thinking seems unhealthy to me.

 

And to what end would one do it? All you'd be doing would be destroying intimacy.

[Mme. Chaucer]

All I have ever said, from the very beginning is that we live in a culture of over abudance.

 

No. You've also said A LOT of stuff like this:

 

Simply, yes, the fact that he does have those thoughts does give him the potential to be untrustworthy. It's not a big leap to make.

 

DY, you are perceived as pro thought-policing because of the way you present your beliefs here. People aren't making stuff up out of thin air. Then you act insulted when people call you on that.

 

Own it.

 

I am going to start a new thread that is a spin off of this one; we'll see how that plays out.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Fine. Except you are saying all of this in a context where the question posed was, "Do men in happy relationships think of sex with others."

 

So, why is it up to YOU to determine that "thinking of sex with others" falls outside of the parameters of taking care of your mind, and even being positive? How can you be so presumptuous as to assume that YOUR narrow definitions of "self control" and "taking care" of ones mind should be universal, or even pertain to any person on Earth other than yourself?

 

I never said it was up to me. Someone ASKED a question, I responded. Just like EVERYONE else!

 

If YOU feel that you need to get out your cat o' nine tails and thrash yourself if you have a sexy thought, go for it. You're not talking me into it, though!

 

Shoot. I really was hoping for us to be the Cat O’ Nine tails version of Bosom Buddies. I get to be Tom Hanks though okay?

 

And when you talk about "a safe place," it doesn't sound like you'll be providing one for any average fellow. I promise you, your boyfriend or husband will soon learn that he needs to keep a lot of secrets from you, if he falls within the realm of "average" sexuality.

 

Yeah, I’ve heard that message before. It always comes down to what the guy needs and how the woman is the reason he lies and how she needs to change and he just needs to remain in his “natural” state while she is expect to do all the accepting, and changing and shifting and just laying down like a doormat because it's what he needs. I thought in the relationship the man and woman mattered. But by the script in the paragraph you wrote above, it's just the man that matters. Yeah, sorry if I think that’s both unfair and unhealthy.

 

And I hope you get it sorted out before you have kids of your own - I shudder to imagine the dialogue that might ensue if you caught your son or daughter masturbating, especially if they had some dirty pictures or video in front of them. Yikes, bring on the shamefest.

 

I'm sorry you feel that I wouldn't make a good mother. I certainly have no reason to believe you aren’t/wouldn’t be a great mom even if we would raise our kids differently. We disagree on a message board, it doesn't make me an authority who you are as a person or mother off this board.

 

Despite what you think of me, I know that I would make a really good mom too. I hope someday I get that chance. I think kids are great.

 

Your repeated use of the analogy of pedophilia to normal sexual fantasies is concerning. No, I'm not going to "give you a break." Why don't YOU give it a break and give a little consideration to other peoples perspectives. I'm not asking you to change yours.

 

No, I was not comparing pedophilia to normal sexual fantasies. I was using the pedophila example to showcase the idea of being responsible for our thoughts. I said a million times it was an extreme example and that it was not to be tied into fantasies of legal people.

 

I assure you, most of us who sometimes have sexual fantasies about other people who are in happy and successful relationships with others who sometimes have sexual fantasies about other people feel just fine about how we take care of ourselves and our ability to control ourselves. Can you see how your constant haranguing about how this is somehow "bad" is kind of insulting?

 

I am sincerely glad you have a wonderful relationship that works for you and I wish you many many more years of that.

 

I stand by my original comments on this issue while maintaing respect for you and well wishes to continued happiness in your relationship.

 

So what? Everything has the potential to be detrimental, including drinking water and shopping. We're not talking about obsessions, addictions, victimizing other people. You can start a thread about those subject if you like, but it's not the subject of this one. Your paragraph above is an example of backpedalling. The question posed in this thread, again, was:

 

I know what the question was. Go back to my first response to see it. Someone asked a question, we all answered it based on what we thought.

Clearly the discussion has snowballed. You have been included in that snowball correct?

 

The answer is YES, whether you like it or not. And of course, there are exceptions.

 

And you think this is bad. I get it.

 

 

The answer is *yes* for you. Great. The answer could be *yes* for other people. We all gave a response based on what we think.

 

You think it’s “yes”. I get it.

 

 

Did XXOO say that she was in a marriage with a man who fantasizes about every woman that is not her, and/ or that he is not happy and grateful for what he has?

 

Did I say XXOO was in such a marriage? My comment had nothing to do with XXOO and her marriage.

 

When you drag all people who have sexual fantasies into the realm of pedophiles or obsessive porn addicts, you are insulting - and lacking in understanding.

 

Well I didn't drag anyone that has sexual fantasies into the realm of pedophiles or obsessive porn addicts. You did. NAnd you are insulting and lacking in understanding ontop of making personal attacks against me just because I have a freaking opinion on this subject that never turned into a personal commentary on you or anyone else on here.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Mme. Chaucer

DY, you are perceived as pro thought-policing because of the way you present your beliefs here. People aren't making stuff up out of thin air. Then you act insulted when people call you on that.

 

Own it.

 

I am going to start a new thread that is a spin off of this one; we'll see how that plays out.

 

Not people Mme...YOU. You make stuff up about what I think or what I said and ignore a good chunk of things I said to twist the details up. I don't need to act insulting when YOU are infact insulting. How about you own your own crap for a change. I stand by everything I said.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

zengirl

You cannot compare ANY taboo to something that bothers the individual. Taboos are so extreme because they are not about the individual; they are so extreme as to not even be CONSIDERED in an individual fashion.

 

I am sincerely not trying to compare fantasies of little kids to fantasies of adults. In my first explanation, I tried to seperate any corelation that would be made regarding that. My point to use pedophila was to showcase the mindset that thoughts matter. Which you agree with. Is it it extreme? yes. I was the first one to point that out. I also said that it was not the same as having a fantasy of a legal adult. But because of it's tabooness, it gives us a common ground to see how the idea that thoughts matter can be true.

 

I get that you do not think it's a good example for it's tabooness. However, that's exactly why I think it's a good example in proving the idea about thoughts mattering .Because it is taboo. And a huge majority of people will have a common ground in being turned off by that taboo, therefore, a common base to relate to.

 

The reason folks have a kneejerk reaction to taboos is because they are sewn into the very fabric of our society and socialization. Plenty of things that many consider 'wrong' to varying degrees are not taboos. (Frankly, murder is not even a taboo, let alone sexual thoughts!)

 

People had a kneejerk reaction to my comments WAY before the mention of pedophila.

 

 

No, I don't think we do. We may label things as incorrect or correct, fair or unfair, but we aren't really moralizing here in terms of opinions

.

 

You can change the words to incorrect/corret or fair/unfair, it's still moralizing. Everyone here believes their line of thought is the "correct" or "right" line of thought.

 

I do not think it is okay to try to invade another person's inner life, and if they are kind enough to share that with you when they wouldn't with others (which is what intimacy is!), then I would find it quite odd to use that time to judge them and preach at them and especially shame them.

 

No one suggested that someone should go to lengths to invade past the boundries another person is comfortable with. I also do not think that just because a judgement is made, that it means someone is going to be preached to or shamed. I also don't think that just because a judgement is made, that it's neccesarily "unhealthy." When it comes to a couple, all matters should be delt with kindness. That doesn't mean that just because a partner shares something, you smile and pretend it's wonderful so not to rock the waves when you are really uncomfortable with it. Anymore then you shame them for it.

 

Frankly, I would find that wrong; I think actions can be wrong. I think thoughts can be productive or unproductive, correct or incorrect (if we're talking thinking of facts or outcomes or such), healthy or unhealthy to the individual, depending on how they impact the individual (and yes, like the child molester thoughts, ANY thoughts that put you outside of the framework of the society which you could not escape would feel like a hindrance, generally; that is generally seen as a kind of madness), but to try to control or label what other people are thinking seems unhealthy to me.

 

How is it controling another's thoughts by saying certain thoughts can be unhealthy?

 

And isn't even saying thoughts are productive/unproductive or correct/incorrect, a form of labeling in itself? There are some people that wouldn't even be comfortable with that much of a commentary on their thoughts.

 

At the end of the day, we all have personal ideas about how we want to live our lives. That in it self is a judgement. When we discuss these matters and our opinions and yes, make judgements, on different topics. Even you make judgements Zegirl. It's not bad or wrong. It just is. It's what forms our opinions. That doesn't mean you rip into people though naturally. YOu still treat others with respect. But you don't have to accept all their thoughts just because they thought them.

 

 

And to what end would one do it? All you'd be doing would be destroying intimacy.

[zengirl]

I am sincerely not trying to compare fantasies of little kids to fantasies of adults. In my first explanation, I tried to seperate any corelation that would be made regarding that. My point to use pedophila was to showcase the mindset that thoughts matter.

 

You're missing my point. My point wasn't that it was the content of that thought that makes people agree it's a problem perse, but that those thoughts literally fall outside of socialization. I will say I imagine more people have passing thoughts of pedophila than ever fixate on it (think of it often) or certainly act on it. Most people would naturally quell such a thought because they'd been so rigidly socialized to do so! Again, that's why you can't use taboos. The way they operate with socialization is just different.

 

As I've said, I agree thoughts matter---not the way you think they matter or should be policed, but of course, they impact the individual in ways that matter. I do not think they're a great way to judge the individual. However, with taboos---if someone cannot stop thinking of something that is taboo and desires it, then that means socialization has failed and they are deviant. That's why taboos are different because of the very nature of socialization.

 

People had a kneejerk reaction to my comments WAY before the mention of pedophila.

 

No, they had individual reactions that felt kneejerk to you because they disagreed with you.

 

You can change the words to incorrect/corret or fair/unfair, it's still moralizing. Everyone here believes their line of thought is the "correct" or "right" line of thought.

 

When I said correct/incorrect, I literally meant we can say that about things that are provable. Moralizing is not provable, and there are many moral codes about. Some things posted on this forum are provable.

 

No one suggested that someone should go to lengths to invade past the boundries another person is comfortable with. I also do not think that just because a judgement is made, that it means someone is going to be preached to or shamed. I also don't think that just because a judgement is made, that it's neccesarily "unhealthy." When it comes to a couple, all matters should be delt with kindness. That doesn't mean that just because a partner shares something, you smile and pretend it's wonderful so not to rock the waves when you are really uncomfortable with it. Anymore then you shame them for it.

 

You should re-read your posts if you don't think you're shaming. That's where most of your posts in this thread go.

 

How is it controling another's thoughts by saying certain thoughts can be unhealthy?

 

You are attempting to make blanket statements about what thoughts are healthy or unhealthy for everyone; that is attempting to assert control. I'm not saying it's success in doing so -- you CANNOT control another's thoughts, but it seems like you wish you could from all your posts.

 

And isn't even saying thoughts are productive/unproductive or correct/incorrect, a form of labeling in itself? There are some people that wouldn't even be comfortable with that much of a commentary on their thoughts.

 

Well, I laid out my criteria for that, which is basically: If your way of thinking and the contents of your mind are working for you and producing the kind of mindframe, life, and happiness you want, then your thoughts are working for you/productive/etc.

 

Correct, again, I'm only saying to thoughts that are literally provable (i.e. the Earth is round vs. the Earth is flat).

 

I don't think most people would take issue with those.

 

At the end of the day, we all have personal ideas about how we want to live our lives. That in it self is a judgement. When we discuss these matters and our opinions and yes, make judgements, on different topics. Even you make judgements Zegirl. It's not bad or wrong. It just is. It's what forms our opinions. That doesn't mean you rip into people though naturally. YOu still treat others with respect. But you don't have to accept all their thoughts just because they thought them.

 

Of course, I make judgments, but I am not suggesting what kinds of thoughts are okay or not. Again, you're missing the point of what I said. I actually do accept all thoughts---even those that are taboo, frankly, though anyone having taboo thoughts regularly is likely to go crazy within society, which is the problem; not because of the content of the thoughts but because they are not fitting into the strictest layer of socialization---depending on what the individual does with them. I think thoughts are important because they come from our beliefs and thus help determine what our life will be like; I think thoughts direct energy towards us and have a lot of influence over our happiness or not, but I don't think certain kinds of thoughts do one thing and others do another; I think it depends solely on how they work for the individual.

Edited February 6, 2012 by zengirl

[xxoo]

Yeah, I’ve heard that message before. It always comes down to what the guy needs and how the woman is the reason he lies and how she needs to change and he just needs to remain in his “natural” state while she is expect to do all the accepting, and changing and shifting and just laying down like a doormat because it's what he needs. I thought in the relationship the man and woman mattered. But by the script in the paragraph you wrote above, it's just the man that matters. Yeah, sorry if I think that’s both unfair and unhealthy..

 

If accepting a man makes you feel like a doormat, then he is not the right man for you.

 

But it is a big leap to go from "my husband sometimes thinks about sex with other women" to "he treats me like a doormat". There must be more going on than that.

 

Say you have a man who treats you like the center of his world, tells you and shows you that he loves "every bit of you" all the time, prioritizes you with all major decisions, supports you, adores you, wants you madly, etc. And, he also has sexual thoughts of other women sometimes, as most men do, and which you would never know about if you didn't ask. Doormat?

 

Also, consider that there will likely be things about the woman that he accepts and accomodates, even though it is different from how he is naturally. He may need to accept and accomodate that she doesn't have the level of sexual thoughts he has, for him or otherwise. I bet that, after a few years, a lot of men wish their wives did think about sex as much as they do.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Yeah, I’ve heard that message before. It always comes down to what the guy needs and how the woman is the reason he lies and how she needs to change and he just needs to remain in his “natural” state while she is expect to do all the accepting, and changing and shifting and just laying down like a doormat because it's what he needs. I thought in the relationship the man and woman mattered. But by the script in the paragraph you wrote above, it's just the man that matters. Yeah, sorry if I think that’s both unfair and unhealthy.

 

Try to understand this:

 

What a person has going on inside their head is NOT an affront to other people. It is THEIR OWN BUSINESS. It has nothing to do with men vs. women. Nobody can be a "doormat" because of what another person it THINKING.

 

Also, what a person "needs" is not hurtful to another person. It is THEIR OWN BUSINESS. A person SHOULD seek to have their needs met in relationships. Men and women both. A successful relationship is one where the people involved are both able to have many of their needs met. With a lot of compromises and surprises.

 

I don't think that "it's only the man that matters," and frankly, it's a drag talking to you because you continue to pull nonsense like that out of thin air and to ignore every point made by others as well as the massive amount of things you've said yourself, on many threads.

 

Not people Mme...YOU. You make stuff up about what I think or what I said and ignore a good chunk of things I said to twist the details up.

 

False. I have told you many times that I'm with you up to a point and then you veer off into territory where I can't follow. Per my comment where I point out how you jump from "culture of overabundance" (I'm with you) to "sexual fantasy is a short leap to unfaithful" where I'm so not with you.

 

I am not "twisting" anything. I am taking issue with some of the points you make.

 

And many different people have talked about your "thought police" tendencies on this thread alone.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

zengirl

You're missing my point. My point wasn't that it was the content of that thought that makes people agree it's a problem perse, but that those thoughts literally fall outside of socialization. I will say I imagine more people have passing thoughts of pedophila than ever fixate on it (think of it often) or certainly act on it. Most people would naturally quell such a thought because they'd been so rigidly socialized to do so! Again, that's why you can't use taboos. The way they operate with socialization is just different.

 

The reality is we have fundementallly different view points on life Zengirl. I am not going to change your view point anymore then you are going to change mine. It's not a matter of me 'missing" something and "you" getting it. They are simply fundementally different beliefs.

 

 

As I've said, I agree thoughts matter---not the way you think they matter or should be policed, but of course, they impact the individual in ways that matter. I do not think they're a great way to judge the individual. However, with taboos---if someone cannot stop thinking of something that is taboo and desires it, then that means socialization has failed and they are deviant. That's why taboos are different because of the very nature of socialization.

 

As I said earlier, we simply aren't going to agree. You think that the example isn't good because the socialization of taboos. I think the example is good because of exactly that reason. Because it gives us a common ground to see a situation where thoughts matter in a very clear and distinct example. Because when it comes to fantasies of legal adults, it clearly would be much more varied and hard to discuss all the different introcies.

 

 

No, they had individual reactions that felt kneejerk to you because they disagreed with you.

 

Wrong. I have had many discussion with people that disagree with points I make and never "felt' the response was a kneejerk reaction. There was a conversation between Theives and I that went very nicely and she certainly didn't agree with me on everypoint I was making.

 

The reality is that people already had kneejerk reactions way before I brought up the example of pedohphila. In general, people don't like the idea of having to be accountable for their thoughts or being judged for their thoughts.

 

When I said correct/incorrect, I literally meant we can say that about things that are provable. Moralizing is not provable, and there are many moral codes about. Some things posted on this forum are provable.

 

Give me an example. Because to me, right or wrong/ correct or incorrect, are not as seperate as you seem to think.

 

 

You should re-read your posts if you don't think you're shaming. That's where most of your posts in this thread go.

 

You should re-read your posts too if you think that you are not shaming either. Or that other people aren't either.

 

I have never told any one person here that they were "fantasizing" too much. I have made plenty of comments about social norms. If you want to get down to the nitty gritty, pretty much any comment on here can be considered "shaming" if it disagrees with another poster. You included in that.I cold very easily apply the idea of "shaming" to your posts in your responses. Although I do not think you post things to specifically shame me or other posters. You post them to make a point. Which is no different then why I, or anyone else here posts either. I think it's disengenous to say otherwise.

 

You are attempting to make blanket statements about what thoughts are healthy or unhealthy for everyone; that is attempting to assert control. I'm not saying it's success in doing so -- you CANNOT control another's thoughts, but it seems like you wish you could from all your posts.

 

I have certianly made general comments. As you have as well. I have never dictated what is right for *you* or anyone else in their relationship. Mme talked about how in her relationship fantasizing is fine. I wished her many more happy years in her relationship. I never once told her that what she was doing was wrong or that she was fantasizing too much. I never said anything about controlling other thoughts. I have simply pointed out the reality that we have a culture that over indulges in more then just food or drink. And that sex is part of that.

 

 

 

Of course, I make judgments, but I am not suggesting what kinds of thoughts are okay or not.

 

Actually you are Zengirl. Read your own posts very carefully.

 

 

Again, you're missing the point of what I said. I actually do accept all thoughts---even those that are taboo, frankly, though anyone having taboo thoughts regularly is likely to go crazy within society, which is the problem; not because of the content of the thoughts but because they are not fitting into the strictest layer of socialization---depending on what the individual does with them. I think thoughts are important because they come from our beliefs and thus help determine what our life will be like; I think thoughts direct energy towards us and have a lot of influence over our happiness or not, but I don't think certain kinds of thoughts do one thing and others do another; I think it depends solely on how they work for the individual.

 

Like I said ealier. We have fundmentally different life beliefs. That's not going to change. I am not missing your point at all. Anymore then you are missing mine for not agreeing.

 

We are going to have to simply agree to disagree.